Replies

1. 
   EricPaulson | Dec 30, 2004 08:12pm | #1

   He should have waited to put the side strips on until AFTER he put the window in; then the head piece.

   Doesn't anyone use drip caps anymore?? I do.

   Milk bones for me??

   Eric

   I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

   With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

1. 
   CapnMac | Dec 30, 2004 08:34pm | #2

   Yep, Andersen shows a 1/4" bead of sealant under the flash, then the roll flashing (in the way shown on tv) over the flange.  Sounds like Tommy will be needing another layer . . .

   Doesn't anyone use drip caps anymore?? I do.

   Shoot, they are hard to even specify anymore.  "Whuz a drip cap, an' h'c'm I gotta use'm?" [insert teeth grinding here & a pointy tinfoil hat to keep the stupid "rays" off me]Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

2. 
   gdavis62 | Dec 30, 2004 08:46pm | #3

   I don't have any milk bones, buy you are due one, and we'll see if we can get Blue to send it to you.

   Right about the side flashings.  I think Tommy and Kevin were wasting their Vycor on the upright edges, doing what they did.

   What I like to do is this.  Using a good butyl sealant, gun a nice healthy bead right at the edges of the RO at the two sides and top, for the window flanges to bed into.  Nice insurance.  Be careful to not get any on you.  And don't do it at the bottom edge, as anything that gets to the sill, we want to weep away to the outside.

   Then the side laps, followed by the top.

   For windows with heavy weather exposure, I like to use a factory-made sill pan like Jamsill Guard, or make something like it myself.

1. 
   afro | Dec 30, 2004 09:01pm | #4

   Can you explain to me what "VYCOR" is?  I have not heard of it .

    

   TIA.

1. 
   gdavis62 | Dec 30, 2004 09:44pm | #5

   Google for it.  Key in "Grace Vycor" and you will see lots of references.

   If you know what peel-n-stick ice and watershield is, then it is simply a 9" wide roll of something very similar.  It is probably the same material, maybe thinner, maybe thicker, but in 9" roll width, instead of 39".

1. 
   afro | Dec 30, 2004 10:02pm | #6

   Thank you Mr. Davis.

   I think this man did not use any of that.

2. 
   EricPaulson | Dec 30, 2004 10:10pm | #7

   GOOD!

   That's all out of the way; now I have a question.

   I use alot of Andersen Windows. More often than not will be trimmed out with some type of flat stock; 5/4 Pine, Axek, fill in the blank.

   I will usuall releive the back of the stock where it laps over the nail flange in order to get it to lay flat on the sheathing. PIA in my opinion+ you need to back prime before installing. I've done it another way or two, but nothing I was too proud of.

   Now, where putting even more layers of thick stuff around the windows.

   Let's talk about ways of dealing with getting the window trim to lay flat.

   I do not do al or vinyl, so I personally am not too interested in discussing that aspect of the install.

   BTW 'Gene', I recently viewed a vacation home special on the tube, they were up by you. (which also happens to be one of my favorite places)

   There was a contractor going around with a couple as an inspector of their potential purchase. i believe his name wase Gary Freil os something like that. perhaps you know him? Older guy with a bit of a limp.

   Anywho, all the homes had electric heat, seems you guys have your own electric plant?? If true, fill me in please, I'm curious.

   EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

   With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

1. 
   gdavis62 | Dec 30, 2004 11:00pm | #8

   I'm with you on the exterior trim bulge.  There is just no way around rebating the back of the trim to have it sit flat. 

   That, no matter how you flash, or seal.  Even with nothing, the thickness of the window flange causes the trim to rock.

   Here's a thought, though, and I might try it on the next job.  Ever seen the little heavy boardstock (flat thick cardboard) squares, little teeny guys maybe 3/4-inch square by about 1/8" thick, used by many door shops to provide margin blocks between door slabs and frames?  They are held in place with short-leg staples.

   With material at the right thickness, it might be just as easy to staple little spacer pads on the trim outboard underside edge, as ripping out the relief.  We'll get full-thickness trim at the windows, and the siding will hide the shimmed gap.  We could have our low-cost helper do the pad staple-on work.

   Yes, I heard about the show, and see Gary Friel all over town.  Given the size of this place, there is no one I don't recognize or know.

   Lake Placid's municipal electric works (no production, just substations) has a sweet long term transmission deal with Niagara Electric, and our rates move from a low of about 3.3 cents per Kwhr to maybe 4.1 in peak heating season.  Thus, we all heat with electric, or most of us.

   Many of the big ticket homes use radiant heat, and the work is done with electric boilers.  Mine, for the whole house, is about as big as a small suitcase.  The city building department put a moratorium on their use for new projects, last year.

   I'll build for a client starting soon, and we'll use radiant, fired by propane.

    

1. 
   EricPaulson | Dec 30, 2004 11:34pm | #9

   Electric Boilers..........wow!

   Certainly enviromentally friendly given their source of power. Our juice is near .11 cents. How much of an incentive if any is that to attract people to the area?

   Re the window trim. I have shimmed it out much as you suggested and then caulked the whole thing up well. I just did not sit well with me.

   If you were to trim the whole window out wit 5/4, do you use a drip cap at the top of the head casing?

   So I guess you know John Dimon also?? Owns the speedskate shop down the road a bit from the rink. Good guy, haven't seen him in a while. My wife and I rode our bicycles to LP on our honeymoon in July 2000. We love the place, will probably make it up in the next month or so.

   EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

   With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

2. 
   gdavis62 | Dec 31, 2004 12:08am | #11

   Re the drip cap, the answer is YES, and we are always trimming with 5/4.

   But packing the back with a shim or shims has me going.  With the flange and tape flash and caulk buildup, we are typically relieving a big wide edge rebate on the trim backside of 3/16 or more in depth.

   If I use 3/4 trim, and pack it with a shim arrangement that is a fat 3/16", my thickness of trim out where siding joins up is just shy of 1".

   What a cost savings!  Trim out a whole exterior with 3/4 at all window and doors where flanges exist!  Pay practically nothing for the shims and staples, backprime everything in the full flat, blow a little low-cost labor pinning on the shims!  Wow!

   If you are coming up to ski, let's meet up at the top of chair 6, at the picnic bench where Skyward, my favorite pitch, drops off into the void.  Right next to the lifty's shack.

3. 
   EricPaulson | Dec 31, 2004 12:36am | #14

   >>If you are coming up to ski, let's meet up at the top of chair 6, at the picnic bench where Skyward, my favorite pitch, drops off into the void.  Right next to the lifty's shack.

   Gees, my hands are getting all sweaty just thinking about it!!! I'm a skater, and a cyclist, never tried dh skiing, although I have been told many times that I would be good at it. Where's the brakes on those things??

   BTW, I remember when I was working for Economy Builders, we would make all our corner boards from 3/4, built out to 5/4 with wood lathe. I may still in a pinch, but I don't think that spruce is gonna be there long outside!

   Thanks for all the good ideas.

   Eric

   I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

   With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

   Edited 12/30/2004 4:42 pm ET by firebird

4. 
   Ragnar17 | Dec 31, 2004 12:17am | #13

   Firebird,

   You were asking Gene what he did to avoid pushing the trim out with the vinyl nailing fins.

   How about this for a solution: don't use the fins!

   I order vinyl units without the fins; they can also always be cut off with a razor knife. 

   I like to install windows back from the plane of the exterior sheathing -- it looks more like the old work, and it just looks better to my eye.  Furthermore, setting them back a bit helps protect them.

   I use a traditional wood frame.  After it's in, I put a bead of sealant on the blind stop, push the vinyl unit against it, and then trap it in place with window stops on the interior.  I use 1/2" x 1-3/8" ogee stops, and it looks very nice.

    

5. 
   jrnbj | Jan 01, 2005 07:22pm | #19

   In Buffalo we hear that the low cost power from the Falls that's kept what few local Man. we still have happy is about to go away, probably down to NYC....hope you're not in the same boat...
   Hear, hear on the drip cap....we used to always run bent metal drip under the siding and over the head casing, but with the new tape seals a lot of builders seem to be omiting that....IMHO water-table on top of the 5/4 head trim looks real nice...Amazing how many jobs I had where the painters over the years had puttied up the drip rabet under the sill and under the drip cap...

2. 
   jonblakemore | Dec 30, 2004 11:57pm | #10

   I think Mike Smith has said he uses another layer of vycor to shim the outboard edge of the trim flat. Might be expensive but if you're going to the trouble of backpriming it might be worth it. 

   Jon Blakemore

3. 
   MikeSmith | Dec 31, 2004 12:16am | #12

   eric.. we use a narrow strip of ice & water as a shim next to the nail flange to make the trim sit flat..

   then we flash the flanges

   also.. our pan flash still has the release paper on the lower edge so it can lap over one course of the siding comming up from below

   edit.. we used to rabbet the back of the trim... it was never right... and then we had to redo the backprime..

    shimming with strips of ice & water is easy.. use the granular kind for shims , it's thicker  ( just the right thickness to plane with the average nail flange ) than the Grace.. save the Grace for the flashing.. it costs more than the granular

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   Edited 12/30/2004 4:21 pm ET by Mike Smith

1. 
   EricPaulson | Dec 31, 2004 12:40am | #15

   Boy this sure beats hangin out in the Shed!!!

   Lots off good info there Mike. I need to get up to speed in some aspects. I'll just have to start stocking Vycor and Ice Shield in the garage.

   Do you use an actual pan, or just wrap the sill. I know this is probably a good 100 year thing, but how important do YOU believe it really is?? I figure if yoou seal up the head and sides well, how's it getting in the bottom?

   Thanks for the good ideas.

   EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

   With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

2. 
   MikeSmith | Dec 31, 2004 01:59am | #16

   we wrap the sill,

    make lttle corners with the heat gun,

    let the Grace hang down about 4 -5 inches with the release paper still in place...

    but with windows we do not fold the back up to make a pan.. it becomes too awkward to trim the sill..

   with doors, we fold it up into a pan ..

   sometimes we've also put a piece of clapboard on the  window  framing sill before we wrap  it.. so it will have pitch...

   but don't forget, we are a little annal because we live on an island.. and we hate callbacks for leaks

   before Grace came along , we used to make pans with aluminum flashing.. but i never liked them.. a nail.. or some corrosion would defeat themMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

3. 
   gdavis62 | Dec 31, 2004 04:06am | #17

   Mike, let me see if I have this packout detail right in my head, re "shim to compensate for the flanges."

   1.  Install the window per your own best practice for sill pan, etc.  The flanges, usually vinyl, are bearing on whatever we used to wrap (felt, Tyvek, etc.)

   2.  Using strips of the granular I&WS (is 2" width good?), stick them onto the wrap, running strips parallel to the opening sides, so outboard edges of strips will fall just under the outboard edges of the casings to be applied.

   3.  Cut and apply Grace 9" width Vycor to vertical sides, over flanges and over shim strips.

   4.  Vycor across head, shingle-lapping over top ends of side flashings.

   5.  Apply wood trim, without need to back-cut for flange buildup.

   Is that it?  Sounds pretty good to me!  As I was saying in my earlier post, who needs 5/4 any more?

4. 
   MikeSmith | Dec 31, 2004 04:21am | #18

   that's about it , gene.. 2" ... 3".. doesn't matter..

   if it winds up a little wider than the trim , that's ok too

   we still use 5/4 almost exclusively for our trim .. to keep it proud of the sidingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore