I’ve done many copper-supply and pvc-drain repairs so I thought roughing in a new bathroom would be cake. Not so.
I’m puzzled regarding the toilet rough in. In particular, all references I can find point to using a closet bend to connect to the flange. In addition, I’ve seen many references that say you connect the flange to the bend after the finished floor is in place (sometimes without a solvent weld). Ok, now for the questions:
1. In my town, we need to test the DWV system by filling it with water for 24 hours to check for leaks. I have a closet flange with a test cap just for this purpose. To get this to hold water, I’m assuming I’d need to glue it but this would go against everything I’ve read about putting the flange on after the finished floor. Perhaps I could use a fernco instead? The question remains about eventually gluing the flange to the bend.
2. Is a 3″ long sweep a substitute for a closet flange? In the big-box stores here, all the closet bends are 4″x3″ but the various flanges (Oatey) seem to only be compatible with 3″. The drain line in my house is 3″ so I thought I could mate the flange to a 3″ sweep with a short piece to join the two.
I have the vent sizes/locations figured out and I have skills for gluing and sweating pipes. I’m just scratching my head over this.
Any help would be appreciated.
-Jonathan
Replies
Locally the stool flange is set to the subflloor and the finished floor is even with or above the level of the top of the stool flange. Glue it on...do the test, remove the plastic cast in cap when you wish to set the toilet.
Closet flanges come in an assortment of sizes to fit an assortment of needs...especially for retrofits/repairs as seen with oatley products.
Standard DWV belled and spigoted stool flanges are for 3" or 4" schedule 40 pvc and will mate to sweep 90's, double belled or street style.
What the code does not want to see is the toilet flange attached to a "Y or "t" for the change of direction, or attached to a straight drop of greater than 24"(?-local codes prevail).
A licensed plumber will weigh in on this to be more specific.
...............Iron Helix
I am not a plumber.
Most of the plumbers around here use the inflatable plugs / balls for many of their pressure testing needs. Balls / plugs get pumped up with a bicycle pump. Here the norm is pressurized air.
In your case -- ball goes into the pipe (without the flange attached); inflate ball; fill DWV system with water.
4x3 closet bend - look a little closer at the Oatey flanges - I think you will find at least some of them are designed to work with either 4" or 3" pipe - flange fits inside of 4" or outside of 3". Or I have seen plenty of toilets piped with 3" as you describe.
Jim
One thing to mention: If you cap any pipes with either pressure balls or expandable plugs (the kind with the wing nuts) for pressure testing, be sure to fasten a scrap of board over the pipe to hold the plug firmly in place once the lines are filled with water. Otherwise, the water pressure can blow out a plug and you dump a LOT of water FAST -- usually right where it hurts the most.
DAMHIKT. ;-(
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
holy shid , batman
testing dwv with water ?
we have to air test.... we use plugs and guages
how high do you have to fill the system ?
Have to fill above the highest flood rim, so yeah, it could be a lot of water. We're in Western CT. I don't know other towns around here do air or water.
I helped a friend build an addition. He had to fill the drain system with water to the top of the highest vent stack and keep it there for a certain amount of time. After the test, he was trying to drain it all into a pail by loosening a cleanout cap. I finally suggested putting his daughter's little plastic swimming pool under the cleanout and draining it into that. About that time his wife came and told him lunch was ready. Only about a gallon had drained out when wife came back and was mad at him for not coming to lunch. Just then his daughter walked over and stood on the other side of the pool--as he told the wife "All right!" and totally unscrewed the cleanout--a gout of water shot to the other side of the pool and really surprised his daughter!
lol. I am tying into an existing line in the basement. I spoke to the inspector and he said I can just cap off within a short distance to where I'll tie in and that should be fine. I have a slop sink and door to the outside within feet of this point so I'll find a way to direct most of the water out the door or in the sink when I'm done. Concrete floor so a little spillage wont be a big deal in this case.
Differences in region. Here we can air test or water test. Water test must be done by filling the entire system form the highest vent. That means a trip to the roof with a hose. Showers/tubs are plugged and filled with water to test the seal at the drain.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We had to water test once. One of the plugs in the basement blew out. It was quite a site.
Keep in mind the height of the finished floor. I cut a plywood donut of the proper thickness then cut that in half and place it on top of the sub floor, so the flange ends up setting at the same height as if it were on top of the finished floor. Screw the flange to the floor through the spacer. Glue up your pipe, if your flange has a knock out cap your ready to test.
I personaly recomend the floor flange with the stainless ring on it, its one of those ideas that should have happen a long time ago, would have saved alot of aggrovation.
Thanks to you and everyone for input. I'll go back and see if I can get a flange with the metal ring. I was thinking about securing the flange as you suggested. It looks like gluing it ahead of time at the proper height is ok so I should be good to go on this one.
Thank you again.
You run your plastic up to just below the subfloor, then glue in a 3x4x11 toilet lead with an abs collar into that. (Use transition glue if going abs to pvc.) The straight barrel of the lead must extend from just below the subfloor to well above the finish floor. Do not cut off the sealed top of the lead until after you pressure test and lay your floors.
Once the finish floor is completed, you drop a brass toilet flange ring over the lead and screw it to the floor. Then cut the lead off about an inch or so above the flange and hammer it down fair.
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3" abs (with test cap), stops below floor blocking.
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Screw the flange ring to the finish floor, cut off the lead and flare it neatly to the flange ring. Don't block the T-bolt slots, LOL....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
You are a dinosaur! I've never seen that lead detail but I like it.
Our plumbers like setting the flange on top of the finish floor too, but some I've worked with want it shimmed up flush to the finish floor.
Mike_Maines : The first part of your reply to Dinosaur makes sense but, ["I've never seen that lead detail but I like it."] doesn't. Anyone that uses lead and brass is living in a time warp!!! Sorry...................................... "If all else fails, read the directions"
Yeah but they're nice materials. I just think it's pretty;-)
Anyone that uses lead and brass is living in a time warp!!! Sorry.
Ah, Grasshopper. I see you are a graduate of the Lego School of Plumbing. This is most unfortunate, so permit me to introduce you to some Higher Truths....
One of the most common causes of structural damage in homes is toilet leakage at the flange joint into the subfloor and joisting. Toilets usually leak because they--or the structural framing they are attached to--move, while the pipes to which they are attached don't. This is due mostly to either faulty installation with insufficient solid blocking under the subfloor, and/or because of thermal and seasonal changes in wood dimensions.
The modern method of using a one-piece plastic flange/ring/adapter glued directly to the waste pipe leaves the pipes vulnerable to cracking when a toilet moves. There's a lot of weight involved, and over time it's almost a sure bet that any slight imperfection in the installation is going to cause something to crack--either the solvent-weld joint between the one-piece flange and the waste pipe, or the integral flange ring, which after all is subject to one hell of a lot of leverage at the point those T-bolts go through it.
But lead and brass are both very malleable metals, which means they are much more forgiving of that kind of movement strain than any rigid plastic could ever be. By using a lead transition piece in the toilet hook-up, you not only make your life a helluva lot easier during the rough-in (you don't have to measure precisely so the glue-on flange piece winds up exactly flush to a yet-to-be-installed finish floor maybe two months later), you also get some very cheap insurance against the hookup leaking over time. (Last time I checked, a one-piece ABS 3x4 was about $8.95; a 3x4x11 lead was about $19...which makes a whopping difference of about ten bucks on a ten-thousand-dollar bathroom remod....)
Besides all that, I've changed out toilets set into 80-year-old leads which were still in functional condition. But I've never seen an 80-year-old plastic flange fitting in any kind of condition. The oldest I've seen have been PVC, about 20-25 years old...and they were all disintegrating.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Hey most the toilets ive seen in Middle Age castles were done like Dino..ur one old soul.
Buncha wiseacres, hardi-har-har....
It's easier. It's bombproof. It's cheap. It's also the standard way of roughing in a toilet here, for everybody except Johnny-Pickup-Truck and his BIL. What's the problem?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dinosaur: Unless there is a code reason to use lead it dosen't make sense, most plumbers in the trade now don't have a clue how to work with it. I spent the early part of my career in plumbing tearing it out, [IT DOES LEAK AND CORRODE]. "faulty installation" is usually the prob. when something fails. Let's agree to disagree, luck......................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
If you wanna agree to disagree, that's fine with me. But I honestly don't understand what the problem is. These toilet leads are sold with a 3" ABS collar already bonded to the lead. The top end of the pipe is sealed, so you don't have to cap it for pressure testing. I wish I had one in stock so I could snap a pic of it for you, but trust me, it's no more complicated to install than it is to glue on any other plastic fitting. You don't have to melt lead or pack oakum or any of that other 'medieval' shït. It's a fitting like any other specialised nipple, and it's made specifically to work with plastic DWV lines.
You ever hear the old expression 'It's a lead-pipe cinch'? Well, these are. Smear the collar with solvent, twist it into any 3" female fitting, BINGO! your rough is done. Later when you go to install the throne, you slice off the lead just above finish floor level--it's so soft you can do it with tin snips--and fair it down like I showed in the photo. Takes about 45 seconds. It's one of the simplest installations in the entire plumbing trade.
If a real plumber 'in the trade' can't figure out how to install one of these, he oughta hang up his Pex crimper and get a job selling hotdogs in a hockey rink....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dinosaur: Since i've never seen what you are describing; [I live in the N.E.] it might be viable, but, is it code legal where I live and work?. Bottom line is I don't like lead!. Lots of luck
Man, I'm sorry I don't have a photo of one to show you. Ask your supplier to show you one next time you've got a spare minute. As the old TV commercial went, 'Try it, you'll like it!'
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Not a stock item out here. Fixed more lead than plastic. But I can see where it has it's place.
But you're familiar with the type of fitting I'm talking about?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Never seen one in person.
Dinosaur: BillHartman had a link on his post that showed what you are talking about, but I can't see where you would need one. It looks like it would be much more expensive than using a PVC flange and a piece of pipe. Sorry, but I don't think it's viable in most situations.
Yeah, I didn't check that particular link because the file is a .pdf and I'm on dial-up. Some of those larger .pdf files can lock up my system for an hour. 38kbps ain't Warp Speed, dude....
Oh, well, just remember that fitting exists, 'cause someday knowing that might make you look like a genius in front of some youngster....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dinosaur: "'cause someday knowing that might make you look like a genius in front of some youngster...." that would be much better then what they call me now, OLD SOB!, lol.
If they're callin' you old, I don't wanna think about what they'd call me!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I have never heard or seen one either.But I did find one suppler.http://www.waterlineproducts.com/pdfs/plumbing_spec.pdfThis supplier has all kind of flanges including brass. But no lead.http://www.lawsupply.net/brass_ware/toilet_parts/index.htmI think that I have seen all of those in my area.And will google for those I found this.http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/jun/04/usa"A man who says he was severely burned when a portable toilet exploded after he sat down and lit a cigarette is suing a general contractor and a coal company, accusing them of negligence.John Jenkins, 53, and his wife, Ramona, 35, of Brave, Pennsylvania, are seeking $10m (£6m) in damages from Chisler Inc and Eastern Associated Coal.The lawsuit claims Mr Jenkins's face, neck, arms, torso and legs were severely burned last July after the cigarette ignited methane gas leaking from a pipe underneath the toilet unit."When I struck the lighter, the whole thing just detonated - the whole top blew off," said Mr Jenkins, a methane power plant operator with North West Fuels Development. "I can't tell you if it blew me out the door or if I jumped out."Eastern Associated owns the property where the explosion occurred.Mr Jenkins alleges that heavy equipment from Chisler ran over the pipelines before the explosion, causing the methane gas leak. ".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Best I can do is this photo of the cut-off part of one; I dragged it out of my scrap pile.
View Image
What you're looking at is the top of the toilet lead that gets cut off and tossed when the throne is actually installed. The bottom of this fitting looks like what you saw installed in the floor in the photo I posted at the beginning of this thread (it may actually be from the same one; it's been a while since I sold off my scrap metal).
You can see how the top end of the pipe is formed closed. Imagine that the bottom of this pipe (a few inches below where it's cut off), tapers down and has a 3" abs male collar bonded around it. Very simple; very ordinary. I'm flabbergasted this has raised such a fuss!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks for the info. Bill. I still can't come up with a reason to use one, luck.
I have seen a lot of damage but cannot recall a cracked pvc flange to pipe joint as the problem. Usually poorly atttached flange to floor (followed by rocking toilet), a problem that would happen with any of the materials under discussion.
Lead bends and CI drain lines are code in NYC. Dino is right, lead bends last forever.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Mojo: Closet flanges should be set on the TOP of the finished floor and screwed down. With PVC it's much easier to install before the test. Where I work a toilet is one of the only fixtures that can use a true 90 Deg. fitting for its hook-up, you don't need a long sweep. Luck. ....................................
When my plumber roughs in a toilet he just runs the pipe proud of the floor and cuts it flush on finish. This would allow you to cap the pipe and then you can finish the floor around the pipe then place the flange on top of the tile.
Some guys flush the flange with the tile my guy likes the flange on top of it.
Put shims under the closet collar to raise it to the height it would be if it rests on the finish floor, then glue it in place. When the finish floor is installed the flooring guys can remove the shims and fit the finish floor material under the collar.