On top of everything else I need to fix around here, the master bath needs an emergency fix and I’m going to also replace the toilet at the same time. I’ve been looking at the Toto and Kohler toilets and comparing flushing systems. I don’t have experience with most of these types (my work is mainly kitchens) so I’m having a hard time choosing. I’m also currently working with a bath remodel client on selecting her toilet. Got info from the local showroom, but hope someone out there can give me some feedback about performance and problems from actual experience.
Here are my criteria, in no order:
Enclosed trapway (prefer the Toto)
2 pc. preferred for more traditional look
Reliable flushing mechanism (no more breakdowns 2 hours before the dinner party)
Good bowl cleaning
Quiet operation
Look forward to hearing your comments!
Replies
I am not a pro plumber, but have put in about 20 Toto's between our house, family, friends, church and everyone likes the way it works. Have used both the ADA & regular with the same results. Not too expensive, about $165 for ADA toilet, wax ring, supply line, bolts the last time I did it. I bought mine at a plumbing supply, not a big box.
Don't have any experience with the Kohler's so I can't compare the two.
In my prior job, we installed plenty of each, including some really pricey Kohlers like the Kathryn and Memoirs.
As part of my job, I was in charge of all call-backs. We only had a couple toilet related callbacks, involving Totos. But then, we installed a LOT of Totos, so I think it might be the law of averages coming into play.
I wouldn't fret over either manufacturer. Personally, I prefer Toto's styling, but whatever works for you.
By the way, if you would ever want a gray Kohler toilet, their term for the color is 'Thunder Gray.' I couldn't stop laughing when I learned that.
so Kholer has a sense of humor then.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Personally, I don't like Kohler toilets. As an avid "user" of said devices, I find I have more problems when the toilet is a Kohler than anything else.
I just got our first Toto (high end pricy Guenevere), and I have to say I'm less than impressed with its performance compared to the 3 other American Standard "Champion". To be fair, it is not in full time use yet.
I really, really like the Champion though. One flush and everything is gone instantly. You can even flush again right away and still get a good powerfull 2nd flush without waiting for a full tank refill. But you will rarely ever need that.
The family I married into had a unique ability to plug and overflow toilets in the last house that I owned. Since being in this new house with nothing but Champions, I have never had a backup.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I'll throw in another vote for the Champion. If trouble-free operation is your goal, that is the toilet for you.
I'll be the contrarian when it comes to the Champion.In five years in the repair/remodeling business, I installed two Champions -- both at the insistence of the home owners.Those two toilets have caused me more callbacks than ALL OTHER JOBS combined. I was quite happy when one of the HO's allowed me to replace the Champion with something else -- at my cost.I finally told the other guy that I would either replace his, or he could call someone else.Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
I'll be damned.
Let me guess, flush tower was leaking? Mine all did that too and I replaced them. No problems since then. It was a problem that didn't happen until they were out on the market for a few years. I doubt a new one would have the same problems.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
I put Kohlers cheapest toilet (Welworth I think) about $90 in about then years ago and have NEVER had a problem with it.
We installed three Kohler Wellworths in our house maybe 10 years ago and have been satisfied with them. Toto is reputed to be the best, but we didn't want to spend the extra dollars at the time.
You should cut to the chase and look at the test results (the pdfs of the tables by mfr and score are smaller files than the full report):
http://www.cuwcc.org/MapTesting.lasso
We have 2 Totos that I still manage to clog occasionally. My FIL's house has Am Std.s that clogged just about every time you used one (not sure if Champions or what).
Edited 1/30/2008 1:35 pm ET by mrsludge
I have Totos and my MIL & SIL (who use a 6 pack of TP in a 2 day visit) can't plug them up.
My kids can.
Start with a full m roll of TP. Take a huge wad of it, & put it into the bowl.
Pull the paper so the tail of the remaining part of the roll is in the water.
Flush.
I've had my Toto off a few times. Last time, DW was clearing out some past-due-date homemade chicken soup, and did not see the chicken bone as she was flushing. Sigh.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
Ho! A friend of mine claims she uses 1 roll a day!
This is kinda off topic, But are any of the low flows better than others when it comes to not plugging, way down stream, from the smaller amount of water being there to move "the package"..Reason I ask is that my house is '55 vintage and have had a couple of down(Like 35') stream plugs in the last year or so..And that is with old (non lf)toilet...I wanna change but am scared, cause its big bucks to start diggin alla that stuff up...Last one cost 20k...(different house)
Bud
Toto,
Geoff
Kohler Wellworths is what I use in all my apartments. Very reliable. I've been thru several other types before settling on Kohler.
Take a look at the testing done by this group out in California
http://www.cwwa.ca/pdf_files/Map%2011th%20Edition%20Full%20Report1.pdf
It seems that they have scientifically tested every possible toilet made. (I think this is a similiar link as from MrSludge, but I couldn't get that one to work right.)
It's a big file, but after reading enough to understand the tables of data, it was pretty helpful to me. As you will see, there is quite a bit of variation in performance even among the same brand, with price not always seeming to equal flushing power.
I can personally testify to the accuracy of their ratings of the Am. Standard Cadet vs the Cadet 3. Also, my BIL's commercial construction companies plumber uses all Totos in their work and put them in at his house as well. They seem to work well for him, but when I priced them they were about $250 vs about half that for the Cadet 3.
I'd be interested to see if anyone else can verify the ratings for any of the others.
Jamie
We use the Vitra Atlantis which shows up in the testing after Toto. They work very well with no issues in the last 4-5 years of use and installed upwards of 200 of them. I have Eljer in my house that was installed prior to switching to Vitra. Very few problems but plunger comes out a couple of times a year.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Thanks! I fixed the link. The California Urban Water Conservation Council (CUWCC, not CUWWCC) are the originators of the testing. Looks like they even updated the study in December '07. There was an Aug '07 update before that. I'm amazed at how current they keep it.
Have installed Kohler wellworth, AS Champion as well as other more generics.
I switched to Toto in my house 2 years ago. A superior toilet. I would go with Toto.
I like the dual flush system bt Toto. you save water if it's just pee and if it is # 2 you get a good flush. What's not to like?
I'm seriosly thinking of putting in a grey water system that recovers washing machine water and then uses ot to flush toilets. Free Water!!!!
Then you can just keep the old ones.
Eljar! Good product & not paying for a Name.
Go with the ADA models, everybody likes ridding high in the saddle!
Not everyone! I don't like the ADA height. Don't like taking a #### when I am practically standing up. Man was made to work more efficiently when squatting low - like with the Japanese fixtures of several decades ago, which were little more than a hole in the floor, or your basic military slit trench...
It's personal preference ( unless you're handicapped), all my toilets are ADA height & elongated bowl.
I'm 6'-2"
DW is 5'-9"
13 yr boy is 6'-1,1/2"
My 6 yr old----- well he can get a step stool, or we just step on his stool------ ok that was bad.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
Go with TOTO! I don't have to say anything more then that so I won't.
I thought totos had no bowl rim wash, and you got splatter on the bowl which you have to clean off?
True?
Flush well but have to be cleaned a lot?consumer reports tested and top rates a Kohler
The only Kohler's model that outperformed in the solids test was their pressurized model but the noise was close to that of 777 takeoff. I've only used the gravity models and the Toto works great in both noise level and solids flushing ability. Another good gravity feed model is the Eljer (spelling) toilet.Toto's have as good, or better, bowl rim wash as any other and cleaning comparable to other closets I'm familiar with. I subscribe to Consumer's Reports and "No" they did not rate Kohler as "tops" in any category. In the gravity models, Kohler rated forth place among gravity models behind Eljer, American Standard and Toto. Kohler didn't make Consumer Reports "quick pick" rating with any of it's models, pressurized or gravity action.
I can't figure out how to reply to everyone in this discussion, so can someone please enlighten me for the next go round??
Meantime, I'm just going to post to woodway, who seems to like TOTO.
OK, guys, the current favorite (unless you all persuade me differently) is the Toto "Guinevere" with the Double Cyclone flush and SanaGloss. Although I agree with one reply that ADA compliant toilets aren't always the most comfortable, that's the way this one comes.
And, gentelmen all (unless I missed a lady in the replies), please forgive me if you find my reasons too designer/girly. I know that a good flush is critical, so I have looked at that carefully. However, plunging has not been an issue with our current toilets. But, see that nicely enclosed trap at the bottom of the Toto...no bolts, nice smooth surface to clean, good-looking, etc. That's reason #1. I haven't had a toilet in any house I've owned that actually still had bolt covers, had a hard time find replacements and the #$%^& things have always come loose. I also hate cleaning around all those bends. So far, I haven't seen any other brands with the same beautiful skirt.
Reason #2 - altho hubs helps frequently, I still do most of the bathroom cleaning. I want the bowl to be washed thoroughly every flush so there's less for me to clean. Looks like this flushing system will do that for me.
Welcome your further comments!
Sisie, there is an arrow in the box under your own name in the reply window, click it to select to reply to 'All' or others in the discussion.
Edited to say - sorry, can't type or spell..
Edited 1/30/2008 6:54 pm by Heck
We bought a high end Toto with the Sanagloss feature and were given these stern instructions about not ever using a strong cleaner on the bowl for fear of ruining the Sanagloss. After a few months with an intolerable ring, we went for the strong stuff. So what? It's clean. I think Sanagloss is a crock, but the toilet is otherwise great.
Good to know...hope it's as good as it sounds. I have pared down my cleaning agents to Windex, baking soda (solo and with vinegar), Bar Keeper's Friend and those nice Mr. Clean white cleaners. Was the ring from something in the water??
I've installed 3 Totos in our old house over the past 2 years--three different models. I researched the "soy paste" flush studies and was convinced Toto was the way to go. So far, no plugs! They're great. Sure you pay more for Toto, but one of the worst things in the world is to have a house guest plug and overflow a toilet. Who needs that?
Don't forget to order the elongated bowl unless you have a very small powder room. (we do)
Marc
I've got that exact one!
Actually, I've got two of them. One of them ready to be installed, one I'm going to break into tiny pieces and either tile with or throw away. See, I mangaged - after having had it in my house for only 30 minutes - to skip the lid off the tank and into the still seatless bowl. Crack - tinlkle - crunch. I made a $700 boat anchor!
I did get to use the other one i replaced it with a few times, and it seemed to work OK. I don't have the same confidence with that one that I have with the Champions. But I got it for the looks, and for it's perceived quality... and because it wasn't a Kohler!
I really like the looks on it too.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Ouch! That's a high-priced anchor...hopefully I won't break mine, I don't have a boat.
So glad you like yours..I'm looking forward to getting mine in. The plumber's coming tomorrow to look at the layout (we're moving across the room). After the rough-ins are done, I get to do the finish work.
I replaced two piece of American Standard toilets last year which had to be the worst toilets I've ever had the displeasure of using. Replaced them with G-max Toto's and am really pleased. Haven't had to use the plunger since.
Put Toto's in my house per recommendation from a local small town plumbing supply house.......said they'd had one in their shop for 15 years and had flushed everything short of shoes....probably a pretty accurate statement seeing as how they have plumbing workers in and out all day long.
Delighted with ours....used to plunge American Standards in our old house daily. Been in our new home 1 1/2 years and only had a couple of plunges....the old double ply super soft half a super sized roll....larger wad than a shoe.
Pedro the Mule
I was going to put in 2 of the A.S. "Champions" after viewing their performance at a show. My plumbing supplier talked me out of it and into the A.S. "Cadet 3". Price is less that the Champion, but the quick, quiet flush and very quiet refill are great. Way better than the Kohlers we had before. As for the Toto, I used one over at a friends on Sun. and it, for the price, was just exactly the same as my Cadet 3's. One drawback to the Toto is that every time I work on something over there and need to turn off the house water, I need to turn off the Totos also. I have never read the instruction manual, but my friend said that is what it says to do, so we do it.
Never fear the want of business. A man who qualifies himself well for his calling, never fails of employment.
Thomas Jefferson
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)
Toto rules. Not all their thrones have the super-duty flushing, however. Be sure to get one with "G-Max" if you buy Toto. We used to plunge the Wellworth every couple weeks. The Toto is in service for almost 3 years and not once has it needed plunging.
Another cool upgrade was the "Sanagloss" finish. It is a super-smooth glaze, smooth at the molecular level, that greatly reduces the need to clean the bowl. It cost $50 extra on a one-piece Toto, and was worth every penny.
Bill
In 1998 I installed Toto toilets in all 4 bathrooms, they were just the standard line that I purchased at a plumbing supply store. I was having anxiety attacks over the thought of a house full of low flow toilets. I can't speak to which manufacturer is best, but I have had nothing but great service of my Toto's and wouldn't hesitate to install them in my next home
I honestly do not believe there is any big difference among the major toilet manufacturers.
I have installed and lived with some version or another of just about all of them.
For price and style choices, American Standard is quite good and have never failed me in my own home. I have also lived with an Eljer that I purchased as a very inexpensive temporary unit while one of my baths awaits a face lift. My summer home has a Toto that has stood up very well.
While one particular unit by one of the manufacturers may cause someone some trouble, another by someone else will give somebody else a headache.
The only recomendation I would make, is that you buy the unit from a plumbing supply house as opposed to one of the big box chain stores.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Having spent 9 months of my life working at the orange he--hole, I stay away from big box as much as I can. We have a very reliable plumbing supplier that stocks this particular Toto....how good is that!! Appreciate your input!
Sounds like you might have some interesting stories Susie
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Do have some, just wish I could remember any of them. Isn't it he-- to get old?
Fortunately, at least I have very few horror stories. My clients are pretty great on the whole...now the builders are a whole 'nother story!
My favorite comeuppance story has nothing to do with plumbing, kitchens or anything else. Back when I was doing store design I was working on corner display for a mannequin in the "dressy/bridal" section. Of course, mannequins are not 5'-2" and anything in a corner gets enormous very quickly, so this what kind of designer was I, etc. The installers had already verified it could be delivered in 2 sections, and eventually it was.
For that same project my boss designed a 3-tiered round display for the first floor completely covered in laminate in one piece. Read big and heavy and being delivered to a store built sometime in the 30's. My boss insisted it be in one piece. Looked like a big plastic wedding cake.
After the fixtures were delivered the shop foreman pulled me aside in the shop and asked me if I had heard about the problem with the delivery. I was all but ready to accept I screwed up when he got this big smile on his face and told me the mannequin display was fine. But the wedding cake wouldn't go in the front or rear doors, would go through the dock door but wouldn't go anywhere past that. He said they had to carry it around to the front and saw it in half to get it in the building, then reassemble it and order laminate to recover it. Ah, vindication!!
Sorry to get so far off subject!
Sterling brand is my favorite,no call backs, have just removed Kohlers from a Mcmanshon, couldn't flush anything, hauled them to the dump
I have installed almost every brand of toilet out there & at one point or another have had to fix almost every kind of toilet out there.
Kohler & Toto are both quality.
The only thing that won't clog is an out house.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
"The only thing that won't clog is an out house"Guess again, LOL
Why do you think they invented indoor plumbing?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Full is not the same thing as clogged. ;-)
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
They got tired of digging or ran out of backhoes....
http://www.terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm
btw ... the lower end Toto's usually rate the highest.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
susie... i'm a big toto fan..
but last month i replaced the two toilets in our daughter's house with some
two-piece units i bought at HD..
i was super impressed with the flush... and the mechanism was foolproof
they were relaitvely cheap too....( less that $200 including seat )
now if i can only remeber the brand & model....
i wanna say American Standard.. with a big green label... and the discharge diameter was 2 3/8
oh, yeah.... there was a picture of a gallon of golf balls being flushed.. and the flushing action makes me believe it was no exaggeration
Mike,
Maybe it was the brand in the commercial where the guy sees the really hot lady plumber going to a job next door and runs upstairs and flushes towels, candles, bottles, etc. to stop up the toilet and can't. Funny, I can't remember the brand, just the guy dumping dog food down the loo when his wife passes by the door!
The consultant at the local Kohler showroom says you can't flush a toothbrush...her 17-year-old tried it. His dad made him remove it and clean the toilet out...priceless!
Thanks for your input!
That commercial was Kohler.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_RLXfxtouE
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
BAHAHAHAHAAHA!
You're one of us now - You've been converted to Chanmpions!
And yes, that flush is super awesome!Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Twas those dimpled balls that got your attention
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We've got two Kohler Santa Rosa toilets in our new (to us) place. Two clogs in nine months which is a miracle after the early 1.6 gal. Eljer in the old house .......... drinking a couple bottles of Guiness seemed to be enough to plug it up. Plunger was a weekly if not more often occurrence. If I were doing a replacement I'd go ADA/Comfort Height. I'm 6 ' with hip and knee replacements- it would make life easier. I think the elongated seat/bowl is far more comfortable than the round. You mentioned the 2pc traditional look; I'm not a fan of "modern" but I've found the one piece (which the Santa Rosa is) much easier to clean (bonus points with DW)- no hidden nooks or crannies. At some point we'll be putting a bath in downstairs and I've asked plumbers on jobsites I work at "Kohler or Toto?" and the anwser generally seemed to be they're both good.
I started thinking a 2-pc, but it turns out that the Guinevere is actually a 1-pc with transitional/traditional styling. Seat height is 17 1/4, which I think is going to be good for my husband who suffers from arthritis.
Have always liked Kohler product quality...like that they're a family-owned American company, too. Glad to hear the plumbers think both are equally good.
I have lived in 5 houses and have never had a bathroom fixture that I picked out myself, so it'll be great to have the style and color I want finally!
Not having to quickly look between your legs before it overflows to see if you need the plunger isn't too bad either. ;)
I'm looking forward to not having to tell our dinner guests that they'll have to take off the lid and fiddle with the mechanism to get the thing flushed...we've had to do that a couple of times!
Answering the OP, I think once they find experience the Washlet, women overwhelmingly tend to prefer Toto. Once you get used to Washlet, there's no going back to the crude manners of the past.
Now, for the Japanese point of view. Toto is after all, a Japanese company. My Japanese MIL is building a house, so I'll give you the incredibly fussy Japanese housewife's perspective.
Toto is the Toyota of toilets. Repeat that 20 times quickly.
Other makers are NAIS (Panasonic) and INAX. They all make pretty much the same models and features at the same price range.
However, one that has been gaining market share is NAIS. There are three reasons. One, the superior self-cleaning function, which vastly reduces houswork. Two, NAIS has built-in armrests for assisting senior citizens. Three, and most importantly, NAIS uses instant hot in the washlet and also in the heated seat, which saves 70% money on electic bills over Toto.
I know there are some NAIS washlet type products on the US market, and it deserves some looking into, perhaps.
I was kind of lusting after the Washlet, but a bit too pricey right now. Someday, however, I plan to have one... someday. Anyone I know who has every been to Europe or Japan swears we are a bunch of barbarians when it comes to bathroom manners, and that bidets are a wonderful thing. Since I don't have room for one, I was glad to find the Washlet!
Look in the discount channel and you can probably find a Washlet retrofit for a couple hundred clams. But if you do, try and get the NAIS one, as it saves energy.This reminds me of a story, famous Japanese centenarian, at age of 105, when asked in an interview what was the most important invention of the 20th C, replied without hesitation, "the heated toilet seat."
Wow, if I can snag one for about 200, I'm soooo there!
best toilet?
I'm curious what you guys think about dual flush toilets. and also what brand of toilet is the better brand, looking to spend less than $300 if that's possible for a nice toilet. Thanks for the help.
I prefer toilets you only have to flush once.
We bought an American Standard two-piece "Cadet 3" about 3 years back, and it's been great. Nothing fancy, but reliable flush, stays pretty clean, reasonably quiet and quick. I think they start around $300.
I guess we know what is important in life. 65 posts on toilets. Hmm?
toto too
I've used Kohler and American Standard and been happier with AS - had a numebr of Kohler failures though I still like their product.
However, I'm using Toto on a large upcoming job because I hear really good feedback from plumbers and their bowl is suppossed to stay cleaner because of the finish. For a high end house I'll tout the benefits of that and see if people care (I would).
For what it's worth Consumer Reports recently rated Toto best, and while I personally take CR ratings with a grain of salt this is the type of rating (objective test of flush performance) I find them best for.
Another vote for the AS Champion. I have two and they have been just great. The flush is like an interstellar vacuum and they stay very clean.
Good luck.
we have 4 American Standard Cadets in our house (pre-1994, so about 3 gallons per flush). no clogs, except for one of them. that one has about a 35ft near-horizontal run from the toilet to the down-pipe - so a long way for $#1^ to travel. we put up a sign by that toilet: "If it's brown, flush it down - twice". since initiating that routine about 15 years ago, it has only clogged once - by a person who happens to have a surname of 'brown'. coincidence, fate or karma?
Went with a low flush American Standard about 2 years ago. No problems. It's all gone with one flush. Why just a simple low flush? Have you checked out the price of the dual flush mechanism?