The wife and I looked at a few of the offerings on display in the Spring showcase tour of homes for our little town in western Colorado. I was surprised at what we saw:
1) $645K, 3300 SF split level
The house is under construction with no interior walls or ceilings, and the young builder commented that this was a good opportunity to see the quality of his work. What we saw were dozens of wires runnning haphazardly across the attic, air ducts of different diameters taped together with no sheet metal reducers, wall studs cut 3/4 of the way through to clear PVC vent pipes, and elevated balconies with OSB subfloors and no drainage.
2) $1300K, 5000 SF
This house is sited on a spectacular sloped lot with probably 1/2 an acre of rocky terrain uphill of the back courtyard. There are two 4″ diameter drains near the slab to handle any runoff. Indoors, walls were open and we got a good look at the carpentry and plumbing. The water supply lines were colored polyethylene (red and blue) that terminated in copper stubs at the service locations. In the master bath shower, I counted 18 joints in the poly tubing that were clamped with some kind of metal strap. At some places where these poly lines penetrate studs, there is a plastic collar, but no metal nail shields. Three A/C condensers are located outside (it’s a big house), and holes for the lines were “cut” in the outside OSB sheathing with a hammer! To go with the three A/C units, there are three furnace/air-handlers crammed into a room about six feet square…
3) $460K, 2200 SF single level
This house was finished and ready for the new owners, so we had to wear shoe covers. It featured a kitchen with a giant, 8 x 10 foot granite-topped island with a sink on one side. This thing was so wide my wife coudn’t reach the middle without literally laying across it. The master had a single ceiling fan/light in the center of the 10-foot ceiling, and there were six wall switches located around the room that controlled this one light fixture! I asked the builder about it and he said there was also a “rope light” behind a perimeter soffit, but it wasn’t connected yet. Outside there’s a patio surrounded by an 18-inch wide fake stucco (OSB & lath) wall, with 24 inch square stucco-covered OSB columns. Both the wall and columns are completely flat on top with no slope or shape for drainage.
We went back to our lowly hovel with its low ceilings and laminate counter tops, knowing we’ll never experience the joy of a separate wine-tasting room. But after looking at these “showcase” offerings, I have to feel a bit of pity for buyers who will purchase these homes after the walls are up and all that “craftsmanship” is out of sight.
Edited 3/5/2005 6:29 pm ET by TJK
Replies
" The water supply lines were colored polyethylene (red and blue) that terminated in copper stubs at the service locations. locations. In the master bath shower, I counted 18 joints in the poly tubing that were clamped with some kind of metal strap."
Sounds like PEX. Good stuff. But one of the advanatage is that there are no joints in it.
Just the connection at the manafold and a connection at a transistion to the fixture.
A couple of years a go I look at a house during the Spring tour of homes. This was was $800k if I remember and was magazine show house.
From the sidewalk you could see the hammer blows where they attached the trim around the windows.
And the bath fam in the MBR was must have been a reject from the pile of $5 ones.
I have heard playing card in bike spokes that sounded better than that fan.
"Sounds like PEX. Good stuff. But one of the advanatage is that there are no joints in it. Just the connection at the manafold and a connection at a transistion to the fixture."There were numerous splices in the tubing and 90 deg fittings of some kind in areas where it attached to copper stubs and valves. On each of those splices and elbow fittings the tube is clamped on either side with what looks like a crimped collar. For the outside faucets, they used the 1/2" poly tubing attached to a piece of 3/4" copper about two feet long.If this is such a premmium material, why does it need copper interface pieces? IMO, every collar and splice is a potential leak because there iis no way metal is going to bond to plastic in a joint 1/4" wide.
It doesn't NEED the joints and shouldn't have them. Eihter the plumber didn't know what he was doing, the designers changed their minds twenty times in progress, or the builder was trying to use up scrap left over from another job.
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"If this is such a premmium material, why does it need copper interface pieces? IMO, every collar and splice is a potential leak because there iis no way metal is going to bond to plastic in a joint 1/4" wide."Mostly because fixtures are not available to directly accept PEX.But I did see one website that has a "water outlet box" that will accept PEX. It is a box with a stop valve that is mounted on the wall at roughin just like an electrical box. After the DW in installed then there is a trim plate for it.It has the stop valve and the fitting for the tube to the fixture.Now this is the closes thing that I could find that shows an installation.http://www.vanguardpipe.com/pdfs/plumbingbrochure.pdfNot that is only one brand of connections. There are several different styles that use different technics.Only 2 connections for each run. One at the manafold. The other at the fixture adapter.Now there are devices, don't know what they are called, that can be used on the plex to help it make tight 90 degree turns. But it is not a fitting, but more of a bracket or sleave that the pex goes through. Could that be what you where seeing?
"Now there are devices, don't know what they are called, that can be used on the plex to help it make tight 90 degree turns. But it is not a fitting, but more of a bracket or sleave that the pex goes through. Could that be what you where seeing?"The install I saw had 90-degree elbows and butt-connectors in some places, and in others the plumber just drilled a diagonal hole through the studs to route the tubing. PEX sounds like a reasonable system if it eliminates a lot of joints, but the way this guy used it, it was really no different than copper tubing with sweated fittings. The master shower in this house was one of those big walk-in things with multiple heads high and low. Now that I think of it, it was all supplied from a single 1/2" tube. Can a 1/2" line run four or six shower heads simultaneously?
' the lines were cut in the outside osb sheathing with a hammer'
Obviously he was using a hammer drill. ;-)
I dont know which is more depressing , the fact that so much crappy work happens or that homebuyers dont even see it when its stairing them in the face.
I dont know which is more depressing , the fact that so much crappy work happens or that homebuyers dont even see it when its stairing them in the face.
Ignorance is bliss. Sometimes I have a feeling that knowing too much is not good for yer. <g>
so what do you do for a living and exactly why are you qualified to make such judgements on others work?
How many houses have you built ... high end or other wise?
I'd like a breakdown ... high end ... what qualified them as such .... then .. the rest.
surely you started somewhere.
Now ... let's discuss additions ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
"exactly why are you qualified to make such judgements on others work?"You know, you're right. Only a true building "professional" can comment on obvious s**t work. And as for the folks who pay for this wonderful stuff, well too bad, them's the breaks. Sorry to intrude on your private domain where the best customers are the ignorant ones.
Edited 3/6/2005 11:43 am ET by TJK
This building professional is right with ya, buddy....
loved your post, feel the same way every time I step into my snug cottage......
there's a whole lotta Mcmansion filled cow pasture out there that should have stayed as cow pasture....
Sorry bud, but I'm gonna have to agree with Jeff Buck. While you had some very valid observations, your knowledge base is suspect. For example you said: >> What we saw were dozens of wires runnning haphazardly across the attic << Do you feel that wires in an attic should be run in in some neat and orderly fashion, in some particular pattern or what?
A guy can't give an opinion because he doesn't build houses for a living? Baloney.
I do. Wiring run in a visible or accessible place, such as an attic, should run parallel to or perpendicular to the framing, never diagonally. All the wires run together should be parallel and equally spaced. Where it is visible, such as in a basement or garage, it should be laid out flat, without any twists. That's how I wire, and that's what I teach when I show others.
Me too.
Wayne:
I can appreciate neat work as much as anyone, and am the type of person who will notice it too, and you would expect it for the $200 a sq ft this guy is talking about. On the other hand, I know nothing about the cost of living, cost of buildable land, etc in western CO or wherever it was but suspect it is high. When checking an electricians work, I always look at the breaker panel to see what the incoming runs look like, both inside and outside the box. Would I hire an electrician who makes his runs neat in the attic and crawlspace for an extra $150 - maybe, if I could pass the cost on to the homebuyer. Problem is, today, 99% of homebuyers would rather have a little more molding than neat wiring runs in the attic. In a garage or basement is a different matter as these areas are going to be accessed (and viewed) daily. In the attic, most all the wiring will be covered by loose fill insulation anyway.
Like I said in another thread, the mega builders of today got that way by delivering what the general public wants. And they do customer satisfaction surreys to find out what that is. Not that we have any way to find out, but I'd bet your paycheck ;-) that if neat attic wiring was ever mentioned in these cust sat surveys, it would be down in the 100th of a percent...
Worrying about stuff like how neat the wiring in the attic is makes you a superior craftsmen, but from a home builders and buyer's standpoint, that whole train of thought drives the price of a home up without producing any readily detectable buyer benefits. This is exactly why so many owner-builders don't do as well, come time to sell.
Knowledge is power but the problem with BT is that it set's non-tradespeople's expectations to unrealistic levels, and a home built to BT standards would probably run in the $300 a foot range - land not included - which is fine, but I'd bet that the average BTer's budget is more in the $100 - $150 a foot range. Matt
and my house was almost 700,000 and almost ready to fall down...bought it anyways.....go figure : )
Be well
a...
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