Here in Sarasota County (FL), I find recent newspaper stories re off-gassing of toxic fumes from Chinese drywall. Corroding copper AC coils, plumbing, wiring, and making people sick, driving some from their homes. Gas has not yet been indentified. Just wondering if this is a localized problem or if it is appearing elsewhere in our USA.
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Got a link to an article?
Edit 1: Hmmm! It turned out some builders had been separately investigating the same problem on their own -- and one of them, which the Herald-Tribune has confirmed is Miami-based **Lennar**
Edited 1/19/2009 10:17 am by JohnD1
Edit 2: Here is the link: http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090119/ARTICLE/901190315?Title=Drywall_inquiry_began_in_Sarasota_County
Edited 1/19/2009 10:19 am by JohnD1
I believe they put melamine in their drywall. They put it in everything else.
Hard to believe they would ship drywall across the ocean, but I guess they did. Moisture and drywall don't go together, and I'm thinking there is a ton of moisture in a ship's hold.
I'm in Ca. and there were some pretty serious drywall shortages in the 80's and 90's. Most of the projects we work on the drywall is spec.'d out to major manufacturers so the chances of it being used are pretty much nil.
Being on the west coast I would have thought we would be the first to see Chinese drywall. I see from the articles it was imported in the last decade, and it seems to be a Florida issue only. Google search hits all seem to mention Fla.
I do notice the lawyers are jumping all over it. Here is the manufacturer;
The drywall mess centering on Knauf Plasterboard Tianjin Co. Ltd. is growing every day, though still not a word from the domestic or foreign media within China.
Here is an article about Chinese quality control that is interesting, maybe we might have to start making things here again.
http://www.chinalawblog.com/2009/01/chinese_drywall_if_you_think_t.html
I am in the drywall field and this whole thing is pretty interesting. Is your property involved?
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
You'd be surprised at what it's easier to do for a variety of reasons.Was just reading an article last week on Coke launching a new recycling factory in SC to handle their plastic bottles on the East Coast. The recycling bottles on the West Coast are currently sent to China on shipping containers that just offloaded exports here. Article is here http://www.marcgunther.com/?p=466I'm curious at how much of the drywall market is sourced from China. Any ideas?'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Don't really know, first time I've heard of Chinese rock here. The stuff in Fla. was a sub of a large German corporation.
State officials and builders said one manufacturer of the Chinese drywall was Knauf, a German-based company, which made the product at its subsidiary's plant in China. Knauf Plasterboard (Tianjin) Co. Ltd. has made plasterboard for almost a decade in Tianjin, China.
Looks like they are posed to start flooding the market though;
http://cn.countrysearch.tradekey.com/sheetrock.htm
Nearly all drywall screws come from overseas, and I see China is making a lot of accessories also;
http://www.tradekey.com/kp-drywall/
Like I said, I am on the west coast and we use mucho drywall. I have never seen or heard mention of Chinese rock by any suppliers. I wonder if it is available in Seatle. New Orleans probably got some, I would think. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Years ago I worked as a seaman on a ship supplying gypsum to drywall manufacturers. Gypsum is mined on the island of San Marcos in the Gulf of California off the Baja coast. It is mined and shipped on ore carriers to drywall plants on the west coast: Long Beach, Antioch, Richmond, Seattle and other ports. I can't see it being economically competitive to import drywall to the west coast from China.
That is interesting, I never knew that gypsum was coming up from Mexico. It seems that little island would have been leveled off by now, all the drywall we use. ; ^ )
It seems even less economicly sound to import rock to Florida doesn't it? I am sure at this point in time, those that did are regretting it.
I see you are in Berkeley, any interest in going up to Washington for the Fest?
We should do some little get together for everyone around here. I know Fishrite has shown interest.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Sounds like the US production wasn't meeting the heavy demand of the times and drove the price up enough to warrant the imports.
sad but true
I work at Home Depot and am amazed how it could be cheaper
to cut trees down in Canada, then ship to China ,only to be shipped to the US as
plywood.
I do notice the lawyers are jumping all over it.
Yup. The vultures are circling! Not that I have much respect for Lennar. You would think the installers would have noticed the problem before it got to this point.
http://www.defective-chinese-drywall-lawsuit.com/"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Wasn't there a post recently about someone encountering blackened copper pipe? I'll have to look it up...
What are the guesses about the offgassing compounds? Chinese fly ash?
k
Supposedly it's sulphur.
sulphur from what?
k
and please don't say "from the drywall"!
Edited 1/20/2009 8:22 pm ET by KFC
Probably something they wanted to get rid of, so they mixed it into the drywall. So the drywall emits hydrogen sulphide and sulphur dioxide gasses that are both corrosive.http://www.chinesedrywall.com/Share_Your_Story.html
Right. That was why I threw fly ash out there as a wild gas. China burns a lot of coal.
Total guess, though. Be interesting to watch.
k
edit: interesting slip- I meant to say wild guess, not wild gas, obviously.
Edited 1/20/2009 8:41 pm ET by KFC
from the link.....
<<<<Fort Myers-based attorney Kevin Jursinski said he’s representing one Bella Terra resident with Chinese drywall. 'The way they found out about it was the air conditioner kept going out.' A builder is legally responsible to fix the problem, he said. 'It’s a latent defect,' he said. 'It manifested itself late but as soon as it’s discovered, the builder’s responsible even if it’s gone past the one-year warranty.' The builder in turn 'can go back on his supplier, on up the chain. Each one of those people up the chain is responsible,' back to the actual manufacturer, Jursinski said.Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Which link was that from? this was in one of them:
Drywall (in America) is made safely from mined gypsum, but from the smell and the results of environmental testing, it appears that the Chinese drywall contains sulfur.
"Some Florida homeowners are running into a unique problem with imported Chinese drywall. The drywall was made from waste material from scrubbers on coal-fired power plants in 2004 and 2005.
The reason that's interesting to me is that I opened a thread on whether fly ash is toxic waste or not, and learned that American drywall is indeed made with fly ash.
It's possible that Chinese coal and ash is higher sulfur than American coal and fly ash, so this particular issue may not come up with American made drywall. There's still the arsenic, barium, chromium, mercury, etc. etc., but no one seemed too worried when I brought that up...
k
This is heavy stuff. Hope the thread doesn't die.
94969.19 In the beginning there was Breaktime...
94969.1 Photo Gallery Table of Contents
Out of curiosity, what do think is heavy about it?
The cost of replacement? The health effects? The outsourcing of yet another manufacturing process?
k
The thing I find interesting is that the article specifically said American drywall is made from "safely mined gypsum", but Maddog posted a photo of a coal plant with the conveyor belt moving ash to the gypsum plant just outside the fence.
yes..... who knows what is going on the walls now
i think that disaster in the TVA slurry kinda opened up a lot of eyes to just how non-benign "clean coal" is
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/28/2009 8:57 am ET by MikeSmith
Sweetwater, Texas....A coal-fired generation plant construction is being started... Man, there MUST be some greenback payola being put out....
The plant is being reported as needing a MILLION gallons of water, daily, to run the generation plant. West Texas just doesn't have that kind of long term water...Add to that, the trains that bring in the coal come in on two rail lines spread on each side of the proposed plant...
One train load carries back the "Fly Ash" for disposal (somewhere?) , which is also spread over the train tracks route. It contains concentrations of toxic metals as well as concentrations of radioactive materials. There is a sheetrock company next door...what are the chances that the FlyAsh will be sold and mixed into their sheetrock product??????
Toxic sheetrock may not be coming from just China...Man!!! Getting too close for comfort!!!!
Bill
A million gallons? holy smokes. All power plants need water, but that's one reason they're put next to oceans whenever possible. I lived in New Mexico for a while, and N.M was short of it's obligated river flow to Texas, which was short of it's obligations to mexico, etc.
West texas seems like a great place for a wind farm, if you ask me. Solar/ solar thermal, too.
And then there's the waste product... I was just reading about a "green" manufacturing company that touts the ecological benefits of its 98% fly ash drywall sheets.
I just hung a bunch of usg drywall last week in a typical remodel, where nothing is square- we'd measure in a couple places and do our best to cut a rhombus or trapezoid or whatever, but inevitably we'd end up tapering sheets with our knives or sureforms. Covered in dust by the end of the day.
Used to be I never gave it a second thought- it's gypsum, no problemo. Now, I really wonder.
I mean, I know we need energy, and coal is abundant in a lot of the US. And, I'm really glad we're scrubbing the heck out of the smoke, so the plant in Texas is raining a little less barium and mercury on North Carolina.
I'm just not crazy about working with those dregs... if we are. They're running out of places to dump it, that's for sure. Lot of pressure to feed it to somebody, somewhere...
So far I haven't had any absolute confirmation about where the fly ash goes. A couple of folks were pretty certain it was going to USG (and into american drywall) in the "fly ash/ toxic waste" thread, though. Maddog even posted a google shot of the coal plant he had been working in and it's conveyor belt to the USG plant directly next door.
Be interesting to see how this "Chinese drywall problem" plays out.
k
Most drywall is made with fly ash. Lots of drywall plants are next door to power plants to save on shipping. The Chinese drywall was made with fly ash that hadn't had enough sulfur scrubbed out. So when the wind stops blowing where does the power come from? Wind farms usually run about %25 efficiency so a wind farm does nothing to reduce the need for regular power plants.
You ever been west of Abilene? Man, the wind don't never stop. Nothin' grows more than three feet for fear of that wind... And if it does, the sun's pretty hot.
But, if you read my post again you'll see that I get that we need energy sources, and coal is cheap and we don't have to import it from the middle east, etc., etc... I'm not really going to have that argument in a thread about drywall.
My questions are about fly ash in construction materials. I expect you've been following the history of this situation?
To say that thr chinese fly ash was not scrubbed of sulfur is a little confusing to me. The only "scrubbers" I know about are the esp's in the coal plants, which knock all the nastiness (flying ash) out of the smoke before it leaves the stack. Are you saying that USG treats the ash after receiving it from the coal plant?
I'd be curious to hear anything you know about fly ash use in american drywall.
thanks,
k
I do think there is some process that they use in the USA to remove sulfur from the burning coal. I seem to remember one company arguing that the coal they used was too low in sulfur to begin with and that's why the scrubbers (or whatever) didn't work with the coal they used.
here's a good oversight article about disposal of fly ash
note the time line of regulation ( none ) on the left
http://hamptonroads.com/2008/07/fly-ash-piles-challenge-rises-safe-disposalMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the article, Mike. They've been studying it for 28 years in order to not reach a conclusion... sigh.
I didn't see anything in there specifically about manufactured construction products- there was a reference to mixing it with concrete, but mostly it reflected concerns about the dumps and ground water.
My question is, how much fly ash is in drywall (& mud), and what are the health effects of being exposed to the dust from common drywall installation? If I'm shaving a lot of sheets to fit a weird renovation space, and the stuff is all over me, how worried should I be?
Are we talking open a window, or break out the tyvek suit and rubber respirator?
k
i don't know the answer...
i looked at various MSD sheets from drywall mfrs.... but no red flags there
it appears to me, in my limited search, that most gypsum is being made with fly ash...
but they all claim it's benignMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
it appears to me, in my limited search, that most gypsum is being made with fly ash...
That's my impression too, but I'm fuzzy on the concept. Gypsum is a mineral, right? Is mined gypsum being combined with fly ash to make a fly ash/gypsum mix?
Or is Gypsum somehow being being extracted from the ash?
I don't claim to be a chemist or a geologist, just someone who has inhaled way too much drywall dust.
k
Chinese fly ash has high levels of sulphur in it which causes an acid to form that eats reactive materials including lungs, eyes, skin, pipes, metal electrical items, paint, houseplants, curtains etc.They added the fly ash to drywall to make the drywall cheaper to produce, and to get rid of toxic waste.
They added the fly ash to drywall to make the drywall cheaper to produce, and to get rid of toxic waste.
Same reasons we do, right?
And, for the record, KPT is currently claiming that it was a problem with a particular gypsum mine, fwtw.
k
I would hope our fly ash is not so sulphuric.
Depends where you are. Most (but not all) of our coal (and therefore coal by-product) is relatively low sulfur. Again, KPT is currently claiming a particular chinese gypsum mine was the problem. FWTW.
But that still leaves my question about aluminum, arsenic, barium, chromium, mercury, radium, selenium, vanadium, and all the other stuff.
k
I would hope our fly ash is not so sulfuric.
Look below and take a minute to read a recent government review of "Fly Ash". It's on a dot-gov Website which gives it a lot of weight.....
Sulfur isn't the REAL problem.... Really a bit scary when you understand what's IN flyash and what's it drywall !!!
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html
Our "State Governor" appointed a board that allowed heavy metal/toxic waste from the Hudson River to be loaded on railway cars and dumped in TEXAS... Who got political favors and How Much money is somebody making while the toxins flow down to the Texas' largest aquifer?????
Sweetwater, Tex. is about to approve a Coal Fired Generation Plant's construction that also sucks millions of gallons of water from the dropping water table... Sweetwater bought water rights from land owners 30 miles away because their small lake is drying up....
ALL THESE THINGS BECAUSE OF POCKETING A GREEDY DOLLAR...
The things that get done to average people when big money and hard economic times hit.... WE'RE IN TROUBLE BECAUSE OF IT AND IT'S GOING TO GET WORSE AS IT SPREADS OUT AND TOUCHES PEOPLE THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY!!
Bill
the process they were describing made gypsum from the flyash..
it wasn't like they were adding flyash to the gypsum....they are making gypsum Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,US made sheetrock does not contain fly ash. It does contain calcium sulfate (gypsum) derived from the scrubbing of sulfur from coal burning.
Fly ash is something different all together. It is used in concrete, road base, and asphalt filler.KK
I feel stupid--didn't know that gypsum was calcium sulphate--makes sense that you might get it by scrubbing smoke from burning coal--must wash it with lime or something. I guess from the reply to me, that someone described the process in another post that I missed. Maybe check later--I just got back from an art show opening and had a few glasses of wine forced on me--yup, twisted my arm.
My bad anyway for not giving you more info, the description of the e.s.p.'s was in a different thread- the fly ash/hazardous waste thread.
k
US made sheetrock does not contain fly ash. It does contain calcium sulfate (gypsum) derived from the scrubbing of sulfur from coal burning.Can you describe the process? I was under the impression that the E.S.P.'s knocking the fly ash out was the "scrubbing". Is there a separate filtering process which captures the sulfur alone?
thanks,
k
KFC,Scubber uses calcium in an oxidation reaction to grab the sulfur from the flue gas, the result is called Flue gas desulfurization (FGD) gypsum. Fly ash is more of a particulate that has many different compounds in it. Coal plant is right across the river from me.KK
interesting.
thanks, coonass.
k
kk....how cum you got a new screen name ?
i'm so cornfusedMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
One of the switches got me mo cornfused also.KK
So is the use of fly ash in concrete exposing our clients or ourselves to toxic waste during or after placement?
OB
I do think there is some process that they use in the USA to remove sulfur from the burning coal. I seem to remember one company arguing that the coal they used was too low in sulfur to begin with and that's why the scrubbers (or whatever) didn't work with the coal they used.
Yes, there are "scrubbers" that remove sulfur, mercury, barium, radium, chromium, etc. etc. from the burning coal smoke. Maddog3 described working with the electrostatic precipitators inside a coal plant, I found his post fascinating.
Those "scrubbers" knock the particulates and chemical compounds (the flying ash) out of the coal smoke, so that what exits the stack is mostly water vapor and (lots of) co2.
But my question to florida was whether and how the collected fly ash is cleaned after it leaves the coal plant. He implied that US drywall companies do something to the fly ash that chinese companies don't. He's a little short on details, though.
If anyone can give real facts about that process, I'd be most appreciative. As far as what I've read in regards to the lawsuits about the defective drywall, KPT is claiming the problem was due to improper mining, not due to fly ash.
No information about normal fly ash drywall production has come to light in any article I've seen about the lawsuits, although I keep waiting for that shoe to drop.
I haven't read what Mike Smith just posted yet, maybe there's something in there.
k
I've been following the situation very closely since it was first exposed right in my backyard. China is still a 3rd world country using many technologies that went out with wood fired ovens here. What I know about American fly ash is that it's used to make most of our drywall and doesn't have much sulfur left. And not to belabor a point but you're the one that raised the issue of wind power in a thread about drywall, all I did was answer you. And in spite of the wind that never stops the efficiency is still under 25%.
Chinese coal is high-sulfur to begin with, that is for sure. Some US coal is high sulfur, but a lot isn't, depending on location. In terms of me being covered in drywall dust, I'm more worried about the mercury, arsenic, barium, radium, etc., than the sulfur compounds.
What do you you believe american drywall companies are doing to the ash that chinese companies aren't? (That's a real question, btw, I would love to hear facts about how USG is making their stuff.) I haven't seen any industry info about fly ash in drywall.
So, since you've been following this situation in your backyard from the beginning, what articles or court filings can you point me to which discuss the inclusion of fly ash in drywall?
k
Why would I do your homework for you, my interest is minimal at best. You can check for articles in the Fort Myers NewsPress online since they've covered it from the beginning.
If your interest is minimal at best, get the f off the thread.
k
Do you get a white web belt for being hall monitor? Do you have Google on your browser? If so you can find out more than you'll ever want to know about fly ash and drywall in about 10 seconds.
seeyou invented flyash popcorn
this is warSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
You've said twice I think that you get covered in dry wall dust. I'm just DIY but mostly I get covered in joint compound dust. Why are you grinding up that much drywall?
You've said twice I think that you get covered in dry wall dust. I'm just DIY but mostly I get covered in joint compound dust. Why are you grinding up that much drywall?
I'm probably exaggerating a bit, but mostly its because I'm doing remodel work on spaces that are badly out of square/plumb/level, and often confined or up sets of stairs, etc. so once the sheet is close to where it goes, that's where it gets modified. This involves rasping with a surform or trying to cut a tapered edge with my knife, which ends up just being like rasping with the edge of a knife, fairly dusty.
I'll measure the theoretically rectangular space the sheet goes, cut it, then hold it up and say "whoa, why is it 5/8 too tight in that corner and 3/8 shy there? And what's up with that ceiling line, why does it have a 1/2" bow over four feet?"
Out comes the surform, and I shave three sides to try to get the leading edge to fall correctly (or at least paralell) on the stud/joist. Then the second sheet should be running true along the edges, but the top and bottom can need to be shaved to fit the bows and wangs. And, half the time, the next stud/joist is doing something weird enough that I have to shave that edge too.
When I've worked on larger newer homes, (especially the couple I've framed prior to my own drywall install) it hasn't been nearly as bad. But I don't get to do foundation to finish a lot. Remodel work tends to involve a whole lot more modification to sheet goods.
I'm pretty bad (or slow, anyway) at mudding & taping so I usually don't do a lot of that. But you're right, there's a heck of a lot of dust from that.
What is "joint compound" made of, anyway?
k
Edited 3/9/2009 8:13 pm ET by KFC
KFC,
I'm side steping the topic, I know, but the less I have to work with drywall the better I'll feel. I've collected 1/2" and 5/8" dry wall and paid only $1 a sheet for paper-faced sheets that were returned to Lowes....
The gambrel cabin/shed I'm building is almost finished outside. I will have a radiant barrier, too, with adding my own layer to plain 5/8" decking, as well as "cull cart returns" of Koolply and Norboard OSB. After finishing the wiring, underside of roof deck venting, insulation, and vapor barriers, I have enough drywall to do the inside....
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Any pointers when using one of those lifts that hold the drywall to the ceilings and the angled walls inside the second story?
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How about how to angle cut the walls to the ceiling and tips about taping the seams?
Thanks,
Bill
Oh geez, did I come across as someone who knows a much about hanging drywall? lol! When I said I'd inhaled too much drywall dust, it didn't mean I've done a lot of it, just that when I do it it's usually in a funky remodel and I make a big mess...
I'm a passable rock hanger, and a mediocre to poor taper. There are guys here who know a whole lot about it though, like ruffmike, who's a union rock hanger. If I was you, I'd post those pics in a new thread directed to him.
To begin to answer your question though, let me ask a few of my own. What are the dimensions of the various planes? I assume the "wall" portion of the gambrel is more than 4', but I can't quite tell. How long is the space? What sizes of drywall do you have, all 4x8? How's the layout of the verticals?
I love the tel-pro drywall lift. It only angles one way, as you probably know, and the clips can be folded out of the way once you contact the sheet up to the ceiling. I'd start at the top and work my way down, pressing the subsequent sheets up to the ones above.
But seriously, If I was you, I'd post this in general questions. Partly to keep this thread for toxic drywall, but mostly because ruffmike and a lot of the other guys who are a whole lot better at drywall than me don't seem to be following this one.
That's a cool space, they'll probably enjoy weighing in on the best approach.
k
To begin to answer your question though, let me ask a few of my own. What are the dimensions of the various planes? I assume the "wall" portion of the gambrel is more than 4', but I can't quite tell. How long is the space? What sizes of drywall do you have, all 4x8? How's the layout of the verticals?
The building is 16'x32' with a staircase to the second floor. Everything is on 16" centers. second story has just less than 8' on the long angle of the walls and less than 4' on the transition second angle, plus another 3' attic that will have room for R-30... Hence, the $1 per sheet drywall allows for some odd sizing. The collar ties, bolted, glued, screwed, and doubled so they are on each side of the 16" o/c rafter framework for the ceiling. Probably overbuilt, but well under budget... ;>)
All my drywall is 4x8' and I have plenty of drywall screws and an older electric drywall gun...
Thanks for any advice and suggestion to repost, too.
Bill
Edited 3/9/2009 11:48 pm ET by BilljustBill