I was taught to do any job such that the next guy’s work would not be made more difficult. Are guys in the building trades generally less skilled nowadays or just don’t care how their work affects other trades that have to follow them?
Our Habitat for Humanity affiliate in Orange County has been trying to greatly increase the number of houses we build each year, so more work is being done by contractors instead of volunteers. The shoddy and careless work I see makes me more impressed than ever with the type of guys who post here at BT. Our latest project, two duplexes has been the worst yet.
Slabs were poured with garage door openings too large or too small, bolts miss-placed or missing, one room “bump out” was formed 3″ out of line even though the footing trench had been dug correctly.
The truss contractor set trusses not parallel by as much as 1 1/2″ from one end to the other, drag trusses were set misaligned with the shear walls below, making it difficult or impossible to tie them together with Simpson A-35’s or A-35F’s.
Electricians failed to read plans correctly, ignored UFERs in garage foundations where main panels were supposed to go and instead wired everything for main panels in the kitchens (next to where PoCo meters will be installed in outside walls). Now we will have to build dog houses onto the outside walls to accommodate surface mounted panels, adding a great deal of labor in framing, siding and trim work. Where drilling for wire runs was inconvenient, they just broke out fire blocks.
The plumber drilled holes for home-runs of Pex through ten TJI’s in each unit – 9 holes in a 4″ x 10″ area of the webs instead of spaced 2 hole diameters apart. This has required hiring an engineer to design a fix and has consumed $1000 worth of plywood and LVL plus 90 man-hours removing blocking and electrical wiring, reinforcing joists re-blocking, re-wiring and then re-drilling at appropriate spacing.
OK, my rant is over and I feel a little better now. 🙂
Replies
When HFH hires it is likely to be the lowest bid contractors...not exactly FHB.
We have a few good contractors here who work with HFH. I've only worked on one. I did some handicap accessibility stuff and some punch list items for hire...by the hour.
Being a general contractor is not easy, it takes talent, dedication, hard work, and years of practice to get good, and build up a stable of reliable subcontractors. By hiring subcontractors direct, you are acting as general contractor, and finding out how hard it actually is.
If you want to avoid these types of headaches, you would probably be far better off to begin interviewing reputable licensed general contractors in your area, who have a proven track record of successful jobs and satisfied clients.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
"By hiring subcontractors direct, you are acting as general contractor, and finding out how hard it actually is."I don't hire any contractors; I'm just a volunteer crew leader, but Habitat IS a GC here in Orange County, with several paid staff and hundreds of regular volunteers who have built 124 homes in the past 12 years.Your comment, though, seems to suggest that competent honest subs are not the rule any longer, but rather hard to find. I think that is sad.
BruceT
Bruce, I have a theory. I worked with some fine craftsman over the years and have learned a lot. Since I've owned my own business and had to hire help over the years I've come to realize a few things. First - not everyone is lucky enough to have had good teachers. A lot of contracting companies hire based on expectations of what they want their employees to produce and then shove em out the door to do the work. No on the job instruction. I've always tried to impart what I know (and keep learning as I go) to my employees and try to give them all the information they need to succeed. If they succeed, The job goes well, the customer is happy, and I have a good reputation. Problem is you have to take the time to teach, it costs money in low productivity (employee standing and watching as you explain). Second, I think with contracting being so competitive by nature, many firms will hire inexperienced guys to stay competitive. They might have a guy who knows his trade but he may be spread so thin on numerous jobs he really can't watch the quality as he should. This is a management problem. Finally, Today's culture is instant gratification. Since when has construction been the type of career choice for folks to ump into and do well financially right away. It takes years of learning the hard way. This separates the men from the boys. Some want big money fast, start there own thing, do jobs with little training and either struggle through the mistakes or quit and do something else. Others become non thinking company men just looking for a pay check that barely makes the bills. either way these methods breed mediocrity. Seldom is the person who does it for the love of the trade. That person will put quality over profit and will absorb information like a sponge. these folks end up here. they love to learn, they love to share what they've learned, and they are always looking to do better financially but in a way that is honest and deserving. that is why I am here. When we finally reach a point of knowledge and experience that sets us apart it is time we get paid for our years of paying dues. You are not likely to find us on HFH jobs or any other bdget minded project. Frankly we can't afford to work for that little anymore - been there done that in a painful way at times. There are quality people out there and it takes a good gc to search them out. they don't always advertise and they keep a low profile. they are the word of mouth folks."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I have been in the trades for over 30 years and I don't see any change in the workmanship of tradesmen in that period. There have always been competent and incompetent workers. Anyone who works on old houses can point to examples of this going back hundreds of years.
It is up to the GC, in this case the Habitat affiliate, to hire competent subs and to supervise them adequately. This is hardly a simple task. I have experience working with a number of different affiliates as a crew leader and in our local affiliate as the construction supervisor. Most constructions supervisors are not professional contractors and are rightfully chosen for their ability to work well with volunteers. They are willing to work with standards that would be unacceptable to professionals and still turn out an acceptable and affordable finished product.
The fact of the matter is that the standards for a Habitat house are lower than those of just about anyone participating in this forum. Any sub going onto one of these jobs can see this the minute they walk onto the job. They may also be doing this work on a semi pro bono basis. These two factors encourage cutting corners and unless the GC is closely following the progress, shoddy work is the result.
Should your affiliate do a better job of subcontractor supervision? Yes, but the supervisors are spread pretty thin if you are building 10 houses a year with volunteers. See if you can get some retired contractors to help you. These old guys are the best way to set standards for the subcontractors (and volunteers) that will encourage high quality and good productivity. This will produce something that they will all be proud of.
thats because they hire ihop cooks and the next week they are commerical GC's.my spelling is not bad, my keyboard is covered with dirt and I cant see the keys.
The fact of the matter is that the standards for a Habitat house are lower than those of just about anyone participating in this forum.
This varies from affiliate to affiliate, just as it does from GC to GC.
After Hurricane Andrew in Florida in 1992, it was discovered that the only houses that didn't lose their roofs were the Habitat houses.
Pioneer Valley Habitat in western MA was building superinsulated homes 15 years ago.
I supervised a community building project in western MA in 1993 that used more than 300 volunteers to build a superinsulated duplex and the quality was as good as any house in the area.
I supervised 9 young families, in a FMHa Mutual Self-Help Program in 1985, in building 9 homes in one year for each other. Most of the men and women had never lifted a hammer and yet we got regular praise from the finish carpentry/cabinetry sub for how level, plumb and square the walls were.
It's all in the standards you set for the job and the quality of the supervision.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Your comment, though, seems to suggest that competent honest subs are not the rule any longer, but rather hard to find. I think that is sad.
Yes, there has probably been a lowering of the bar overall in the building industry, as a reaction to the conditions that govern our trade. But even the best sub's will not produce their A-game without qualified leadership.
That's what a good General Contractor is all about. Its like good, highly-paid ball players. Why don't they just hire a bunch of players and turn them loose on the field? Why do sports teams have coaches? Why do orchestras have conductors - because honest musicians are no longer the rule?
Good leaders commend for strengths, counsel for weaknesses, set goals and guidelines, monitor progress, nip problem areas in the bud as they arise, negotiate compromises when there are conflicts, and much, much more. As with any organized human endeavor, in the end, the result is largely a reflection of the leadership.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Was there any type of supervisor or were all the subs just let loose?
John
It's not just building tradesmen, it's our entire economy. How many people today stick with one job or one trade for a lifetime?
I saw a statistic that the typical high school grad today should expect to have 14 different jobs before he's in his mid 30's.
How many hardware stores do you go into where the sales staff know their products?
People today are more self-centered and less competent than at any time in my 56 years on the planet. I was fortunate to have worked my first full-time job at what used to be called a service station, and the owner imbued in me the concept of serving the customer.
Now our "self-serve" economy has lost most of the values that made for quality work and quality relationships. And some call this "progress".
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 2/24/2008 6:13 pm ET by Riversong
Bruce
I'm sure that Habitat here is different then Habitat where you are at. And our HFH is different then that of the one in Columbus OH and..........
Here we have had pretty good luck with who volunteers for the work, most of the skilled workers are volunteers.
The local trac-home builder offered to build a house and Habitat turned them down, said that they would take the material or cash donation but Habitat here built to national standards and the local trac builder didn't meet those standards. All of the houses that HFH built were 2X6 walls with 1/2 OSB sheeting, local trac builder used 2X4 with sturdy board(or whatever they call that foil faced insul board stuff), the list goes on and on.
I know of one of the plumbing co.'s that did one of the HFH houses and they ended up tearing a good share of it out! Looked like a blind guy(no offence to the blind, I'm sure that they are more capable of soldering joints then this co. did) soldered everything.
Some one on here mentioned that HFH houses were the lowest quality, not so here and I'm sure not so everywhere. No way are they top of the line but they're damn sure better then any trac built house that I've seen.
Sometimes I think they get a little sloppy on trim and paint but those are things that are right out front and easy(relatively speaking) to fix.
Drywall work could be a little better but having a heavy texture will not make the house go to shid anytime soon.
Fortunately for this area HFH does get some decent skilled workers, most or all of these are volunteers.
For 3 years I built one house and installed all the cabinets, built all the basement stairs and did some of the trim work for the 6 houses that they built a year. Would I call anyone of them FineHomeBuilding, probably not, but I'd guarantee that none of them are going to fall down in my life time, something that I'd hate to do to a lot of the other houses that I see built by some of the so called contractors.
Doug
Easy fix. They need an educated assertive supervisor on the project full time.
[email protected]
sounds typical of the "We don't need skilled employees, we can just out the work" philosophy used by so many builders today......1 supt. can run 50 houses right?
I'll be honest with you. I've worked on houses from all different eras and there was plenty of #### being built 50, 100, 150 years ago. My thinking is a lot of it is either torn down or falls down, one of the two, so it just appears that things were better way back when. I have serious doubts about that arguement, heh, heh.
I see much the same everyday. Electricans cussin' out the drywall guys because they rocked over a dozen or so boxes and they are trying to dig 'em out. My boss cussin' out the kitchen "designer" because one drawer hits the other in the corner base cabinets. And this isn't the first unit like this. I could go on. I'm just a peon and I think it's true about doo doo rolling downhill 'cause I seem to wind up dealing with lot of it. The buck starts and stops with the GC. A good GC would either see the things you mentioned didn't happen or if they did, they were promptly corrected. I've been on other projects that are similar (condos, townhomes) run by different GC's and its like night and day. Not that there aren't snafus but they get dealt with., the job proceeds in a timely fashion and the punch lists are small.