I have enlisted a real estate agent to sell my house just North of Berkeley, CA., while I am still 600 miles away. The house is a 1957 single story Calif. ranch with 2×4 wood construction with stucco over a crawl space.(Will be going down as soon as the renter leaves.) He had a termite inspection done. The inspection report mentions a tree root that runs under the footing of the house. Where it enters and exits, it is perhaps 8″ in diameter and it runs most of the length of the crawl space. The footings are probably about 6″ deep(the water pipes on the houses in the area go up the outside of the house – i.e. it is never expected to freeze) and are on a thin layer of soil over moderately crumbly sandstone. The inspection report does not suggest any action regarding the root.
I am well aware of the root and discovered it shortly after moving into the house 15 years ago (it was not on the termite inspection report provided by the seller or the home inspection report I paid for.) I have since removed the offending pine trees (four 65 ft pine trees killed by bark beetles.)
I can probably remove the root on the exterior of the house fairly readily, however the crawl space is generally only about 18″ high with the root sitting in its own little trench. Removing the root in the crawl space would not be fun. As far as I know, this is not a high termite density area, having never heard of any problems, but I don’t know that for sure.
The root does not appear to have done any damage to the house foundation. I am leaning toward removing the exterior portion of the root up to the foundation and leaving the rest. (I am not a great fan of the toxic chemicals used to treat termites as some now outlawed anti-termite toxins were pumped under the foundation of an apartment I lived in some years ago and I got sick from it.) I would explain that the trees have been removed (rather obvious, actually, as the stumps are still there) and that the root is no longer active.
Any suggestions – Thanks
Replies
I have notice about pine roots is that they turn to what we call, "lighter" which is heavy in turpitine, and a termite is not going eat a turptine root.
Fire hazard?
Haven't heard that term, 'lighter' in a long time.
If having a low wage work force was good for a country's economy then why hasn't Mexico built a fence?
I would remove the portion of the root that goes under the concrete. Once inside the crawl space it's maybe not such a big deal, but structurally you do not want rotting wood under the foundation. If it's not a large hole I guess I'd fill it with slurry, which I would make by adding slightly too much water to ready-mix concrete, so that it will flow easily.
You should list whatever you do on your disclosure form. I.E. root was removed and hole was filled, buyer is advised to have their home inspector inspect this situation and recommend any additional steps required... something like that.
Or, if the Bay Area is still a seller's market with multiple offers over asking... do nothing.
If this old root is now just dead wood then you should remove the root from under the house. Actually you should remove the root either way. Wood of any kind is not allowed to be under the crawl space and is considered to be debris unless its supported on PT and concrete pillar. It's this termite attraction thing. Once again, another building code issue raises it's ugly head!
Agree about the termite issue, however....
>>Once again, another building code issue raises it's ugly head!<<
I wasn't aware that the sale of a house required everything to be brought up to current code. Maybe it's different in Calif?
Tell everyone the price of this little house in Berkeley is going for, it not a bargain. I would do nothing and just reveal the "problem". When friends buy house with problems, I direct them to negotiate the price down, not have the seller repair it. A Buyer will have the job done right verses a Seller who is trying to get rid of it. In a lot of areas a lower selling price will save a lot of money in property tax.
So you are sayingthe root belongs to a dead tree or a tree that has been removed?
If so, I see no reason to worry or give a second thought to the root. It ani't going no where and ani't gettting any bigger. If it rots out and leaves a void, I don't think it would affect anything. As for a termite concern? Not sure. Is the inspector concerned that it may provide an avenue for the termites to get inside the crawlspace?
> If it rots out and leaves a void, I don't think it would affect anything.
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what's on top of it. I found a 1919 photo of the land where my 1926 house is, and it looks like there were trees in just the places where I have foundation issues.
-- J.S.
oops now you saw it
you even made it a public notice, here
did you "deal" with it
sounds like an insurance loop hole to me, for a foundation that fails
your nailed
thanks lawyers
> did you "deal" with it
Yes, the first thing I did with the place was have the foundation and seismic retrofit work done.
-- J.S.
I think growing roots are a bigger problem.. Tehy can defiently put presure on foundaiton and clearly raise heck with slabs.
DoRight,
We just had a main-line cleanout. We removed several yew a few years ago near the clay tile line. (We also have the awful silver maple still there and a honey locust). He told me that the roots from the yew can continue to grow for up to 10 years. I am dubious. We did not pull out the shrubs as it was over the utility lines, and instead had them cut to the ground and put landscape fabric and mulch atop the area. This worked well for us. He also mentioned some companies offer a "vapor treatment" that is supposed to kill roots well beyond the intrusion on the line. Yes, I know we're either going to have to replace the line or move first. In the meantime, I intend to get that stuff you flush, copper sulfate, I think. I also know that they are NOT going to run a camera to document a possible problem as I would have to disclose that as a seller, should it indicate replacement. I only have to disclose what I know and other than a clean out every few years, I don't know of any other problems at present.
I've also removed two silver maples in back and ended up with mushrooms doing their job with the surface roots, causing my gardening adventures to begin. (A good thing). The large surface roots take a very LONG time to decay from what I see in the lawn area.
So the question here is, just how long do roots take to die, in general?, assuming no sprouting of new growth from the removal?
I'm not trying to hijack a tread here. I just wonder about clarification of dead roots/dying roots/still there roots, and the plumber guy's info on the 10-year issue. It seems to fit the thread, though does not address the homeowner with the root in the crawl space. This could be an education to many. Thank you, in advance, for any observations/advice offered. For the original homeowner, is it bad to let the 'shrooms' do their job if there is not evidence of continuing damage? I'm guessing the fungi would do the job in a crawl space, but wonder how long it would take. It it is living tissue, that would be a different case. Just wondering....
I do'nt know, but I can tell you it's at least a year and a half.We had a good sized bush, don't remember if it was yew or something else, that we cut down so we could place a new electric meter and main panel. I cut it off at or slightly below ground level, drilled it and filled it with stump remover chemical, and forgot about it. That was in fall of 2004.This spring as I was preparing the soil there to plant some flowers, I noticed the root was still alive and juicy. So I drilled down another foot and filled it with stump remover again. The visible part is all dried up now, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are still living parts farther down.Rebeccah
Rebecca,
Please keep me posted. The plummer suggested a similar thing, but it's been a couple/few years and I don't want to dig up the mulch/landscape fabric area if it can be avoided to treat stumps. Doesn't 10 years seem way too long? I'm still not buying that long.
I don't want to mess with a good spot, where I've planted a few baby mini barberries around a metal armillary. I've used a mandevilla vine there for a couple of years, but nothing this year to grow up the armillary. It looks good naked. I also didn't plant the wax begonias at the corners for interest this year and still like it. In other words, the small dwarf barberri are doing the slow growth thing and are still l about 1' high due to the north exposure and little sun. I can't imagine they have siginificant roots yet due to their size. The only other things in the bed are Ostrich fern, which is so shallow rooted that I doubt it could cause an invasive problem to the line. The plumber also confirmed that it was a good choice over lines as were hostas.
I'm just dubious about the very professional appearing plumber, who caused me to rethink plantings near that area. It doesn't do diddly-squat about the mature trees, who seem to be the main problem. Even if we, reluctantly, removed them, are the roots still going to cause problems for years? I'm guessing a tree is more tenacious than a shrub, but still don't know for how long either way. I have a sinking feeling we're doomed unless the trees are dead and I don't want that. I'm hoping to avoid the several thousands to a new line as we are empty nesters, though young. I'm inclined to go with the flushable root inhibitor and an annual clean out until we move eventually. Any additional thoughts - particularly from anyone regarding continuing root problems in cut-flush shrubs? We have other expensive issues, like a new roof, etc. that seem more important now. I'd prefer to defer a replacement of the line and removal of the trees, particularly the Honey Locust (thornless), which caused our initial interest in this home from the end of the street so many years ago. Sentimental, I know, but I'd never driven down this street if I didn't see it.
So, how long do the roots continue to grow after removal. You gave me two+ years of experience on your shrub(s). I thank you! Can anyone give a longer projection/experience relating to remaining roots? I would think they would "croak" absent any photosynthesis earlier on. I need more long term experience info. Again, thank you, so very much, Rebeccah, for sharing your experience. It is useful and helpful. I appreciate your response very much and may end up resorting to this technique. I'm not certain it will answer the mature tree issue, which is also part of the problem, unfortunately. Thank you so much for your sharing. This type of info is invaluable.
-dtgardengirl
Are you sure your plumber wasn't referring to the locust tree?http://www.aie.org.uk/trunkline/aie_tr_suckers.html
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/woodland/msg0609554525271.html?51I'm not finding much on yew root longevity. However, a couple of sites mention you can prune them back very severely and they re-sprout easily.Rebeccah
Rebeccah,
The plumber was referring to continued root growth on the yews definitely because he specifically mentioned roots growing up to 10 years after removal of all top growth. That is the only thing it could apply to as the trees are still there.
I rely upon gardeners for info like this and think this plumber (who was extremely clean, tidy, professional in every way) may be either speaking from experience, perhaps with other trees/shrubs or sharing what the training manuals say for plumbers. I didn't get the impression he was a gardener. Also, we had to dig up several smaller ostrich ferns, temporarily, for access to the cleanout and I offered him some and he passed. I have people vying for these around here.
TIP FOR ALL: if you have experienced a plumber poking in the ground for an hour trying to locate the main line clean out access - MARK it when you find it. I put the birdbath right on top so it will be easy to find in the future. A nice sized rock, flower pot, etc., would work equally as well. I learned this a couple of clean-outs ago.
I think I'll check with my extension educator and see what he thinks about this. I do appreciate your time and trouble to research this issue. I also suspect the the continued root growth depends on the shrub/tree, and like you said, trees that sprout from the stump. They obviously have an active root system. Thank you again, for your help.
-dtgardengirl
> .... I put the birdbath right on top ....
That works if you're there and remember doing it. Sell the place, and the new owner's plumber has no way of knowing. It could have the opposite effect, making it harder to find.
I used one of those plastic irrigation valve boxes for mine, and wrote "Sewer Cleanout" on it with a sharpie. Alas, that faded, so I need a better way of marking it.
-- J.S.
You raise a good point about moving. I wouldn't have a problem leaving this birdbath for a new owner. I didn't pick it out and it's ugly, but hidden by ferns most of the time I'd have to look at it. The life sized resin "verdigris" owl is out there somewhere where I can't see it. I could leave that too. (Another gift!) Boy do I sound ungrateful, or what?!
When we moved in, the former owners were kind enough to leave all the appliance manuals in the kitchen desk. Paint for touch-up's were left in an obvious area, etc. I welcomed that extra effort so much. I'm not going to need the items that stay with the house, so it makes sense to pay that one forward. (For those who can find the manuals...I've been fairly diligent when we've replaced things, by putting them in one place to make it easier for me to find them after a period of disorganization...)
I'm not familiar with the irrigation valve boxes. A hideous garden gnome (not to offend gnome lovers!) would be a good marker, after the house is sold, of course. But we're a bit away from that stage. Thanks a bunch for pointing out that the marker needs to be known to a homebuyer when we sell. I'll keep that in mind and be sure they know. I'd like to be a helpful seller in these matters when the time comes. Thanks!
For another roots story---http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=75452.39
Irrigation valve boxes look like this:
http://www.orbitonline.com/index.cfm?fa=watermaster.product&productid=221
You bury them in the ground with the green lid flush with the surface.
-- J.S.
Thank you, John. I learned something today! Do you suppose a white nursery plastic pot, upside down with an permanant marker would work as well? If so, that would be a real bargain!
The nursery pot may be a freebie, compared with maybe $20 or less for the valve box, but it has some drawbacks.
The real valve box has a lid that opens easily. The pot you'd have to dig out again to gain access. The valve box is thick and strong, engineered with ribs to reinforce it. You can drive a power mower or golf cart over it, no problem. It's also sunlight proof for the long haul. The nursery pot could break under your foot, especially if it's been out in the sun for a long time. You'd have to weigh the liability issue for yourself.
But if the choice was pot vs nothing, I'd go with the pot. And replace it with a real valve box if it didn't last.
-- J.S.
Thank you, JS. I didn't see that you could get in without digging out the valve box. I think I'm going to stick with the birdbath base for now and if we move, I'll probably go the inexpensive route, but still be a good neighbor by marking the spot or leaving the ugly birdbath and a note about it. Since I know where it is, we're good. I don't want the next person to have to wonder. I appreciate your advice on this technique!
That root is like the big flashing arches at Micky D's to the subterranean termites that live in the Bay Area. You definately want to get rid of it (or the buyer should make it a top priority if you don't - with the approprite price concession from you of course).
You planning on doing something yourself? The 600 miles tells me you are not. Have a guy get into the crawl space with an ET (entrenching tool) or short handled shovel. Maybe one of those short adz's. Dig around the root as close to the "foundation" (try a 4' minimum below grade in the Rockies for comparison) as possible. Use a sawsall with tree cutting blade (yeah, they make them) and cut that dude off. Grout or cement the hole with root. Same on outside. Disclose, disclose, disclose. Pick up check at closing and buy 10 times the house in Montana. That house was never built with anything pressure treated from day one. Tyr.
Edited 6/14/2006 7:39 pm by Tyr
Nope, gonna do the 10 to 11 hour drive once the tenant decides to move herself out. (Gave her the requied 90 days notice on Jan. 1 and she is still there. Just forked over $1500 to the lawyer to start eviction proceedings - he says $2-$3K more if she decides, for whatever reason, to fight it.) Plan on doing as much of the work as I can myself, but given the forecasts of the immenent demise of the housing market, would like to get the rehab done fairly quickly. When I felled and stacked the pine trees, I left some logs on the ground in the back yard (someone was supposed to pick them but never did) for about a year and no signs of any bugs except for the tracks of the bark beetles that had girdled the tree. Plan on using the proceeds to build my house here in Oregon. Google has started building a couple of monster buildings in the area so housing prices have gone up 40% in the last few months here. Fortunately, I already have a couple of acres to build on. San Francisco was too cold for me. No way would I enjoy a winter in Montana, no matter how cheap it was.
The location could be anywhere--I was just referring to more bang for the buck. I don't know how Oregon stacks up. After my brother went to CA he returned to inform me that my house in CA would be in the multi million range. Haven't figured how to teleport it there yet. Tyr
It might be too late for this.But I have heard owners offering the renters their deposit plus a bonus of say $500-1000 if they are out by a certain date.They will often take the cash and it is cheaper than the lawyers.
around here you give 60 days and on 61 day the sherriff put your azz on the sidewalk.
I offered $2000 to the renter if she would be out by 60 days and $1500 to be out by the 90. At 5 months I sent $1500 to the lawyer for a letter to the renter. At 5 1/2 months she informed me that she has located a place and will move by the end of the month if the place meets the approval of the county agency that is actually paying for most of the rent. At any time after she received the letter from the lawyer, I could have the sherriff toss her out, but she could also then file suit to remain in the place and it would take months and $$$ to get things settled even if was eventually tossed out.
Nope, gonna do the 10 to 11 hour drive once the tenant decides to move herself out. (Gave her the requied 90 days notice on Jan. 1 and she is still there. Just forked over $1500 to the lawyer to start eviction proceedings - he says $2-$3K more if she decides, for whatever reason, to fight it.)
I feel for you. 'definitely don't want to be a landlord in CA. I had some relatives that had their rental property in San Jose trashed by some tenants, who happened to be law students. The tenants were very up-front that they weren't going to pay any damages, and that under CA law, there really was no good way to force them to pay.
San Francisco was too cold for me.
After the past few days here in Oregon, I'd much prefer SFO weather. ;)
What!!?? It's only been 102 degrees. For us in Eastern Oregon, that is just getting warmed up... Spent a summer in my youth digging trenches through solid basalt rock in The Dalles with the temps over 110 for a week and no shade. Loved it then, though would love it a lot less now.
this is simple ...
fly my wife out and have her water that plant just once.
she can kill plants quicker than anything I've ever seen!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Dear JeffBuck,
Do we have to keep her? <Grin> I don't want to lose the "good stuff". Is her presence enough to kill everything in sight, or only what she tends?
I'm kidding here. I'm sure your wife is a lovely caring person, just like my grandmother was and she managed to kill quite a bit. As a kid in the '30s she was not permitted to tend the family garden for that reason, and they needed it for sustenance. She loved plants/gardens to death due to her "extra" care - even to her end when she didn't pop the plug in the containers, and kept watering as they were looking wilty. There is hope for this lady as there is for my "hose happy hubby". I had to buy two moisture meters last year, one for the front and one for the back. He is improving slowly, but surely........Fewer casualties this year...so far....
Thanks!
she's actually gotten better ...
the expensive hanging plants we buy each year for the front porch almost make it most of one season now ...
almost.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Dear JB,
If your lady is hose-happy, and waters generously every day, be sure the hanging pots don't still have an attached "drip dish" If they can drain thoroughly they might make it. Especially since most hanging planters tend to dry out quickly. If she's not watering enough, that moisture meter is a big help. Those hanging baskets should tell the care requirements, including if they are for sun or shade. Location might be the problem too.
Boss's (sp?) wife plants shade-lovers in full sun and they always fry. He tells her and she won't listen, and she "don't need no stinkin' book!" Trial and error is a lesson in itself - for some error stage takes a long time to "take". Looks like you are well into the learning-by-experience stage in this case, so, Good Luck!
Thank you for making this info-quest more light and fun for me. Humor is a good thing. I try to find it everyday and it really makes a difference and helps the perspective!
-dtgardengirl
P.S. Now that she's improved, I think you better keep her nearby. Thanks for the offer of a loan of her special talent, however. She could take Master Gardener training, however, that would likely only increase your annual plant expense and your honey-do list. Better scratch that one... unless your are up for it. ;)
" Location might be the problem too. "
Yup ... as in .. she gets too close to them too often!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa