I’m getting ready to start interior trim on my whole-house remodel. As is often the case, the budget is getting tight towards the end, so I’m trying to save where I can. That being said, I haven’t skimped on quality at any point on this project, so I don’t want to put a cheap finish on my well built house.
The trim will be painted (not intended as a cost-saver, just the style we like), and will be simple profiles: flat stock for casing with thicker stock for head casing, and thicker plinth blocks at intersection with baseboards. There is also a decent amount of beadboard wainscot.
I haven’t been very impressed with the durability of MDF trim when I’ve seen it in other houses, but it sure is cheap. I could case a lot of windows with a single sheet of MDF.
What I’m wondering is if I used pine or poplar for places that would see more abuse (doors, base), and MDF for things like window casing, would I be able to tell the difference once it is all painted? The beadboard will be the plywood variation. I haven’t priced the difference between pine and poplar yet. I really want to do the whole thing in poplar, but don’t think I can afford it.
On a related note: for paint grade work, do people recommend doing mitered returns for all exposed end grain? I’ve read that even MDF absorbs paint differently on it’s “end-grain”. Or is there an easy way to seal/fill the end-grain before painting?
Thanks,
Rich
Replies
MDF or finger joint? Easy. If cost is the problem, do MDF.
I use MDF for base & casing when that's what the specs call for. For me though, there a few caveats.
I always use mitre returns on the stuff. Use a good glue and Collins clamps.
Never use MDF anywhere near water - that means in kitchens, bathrooms or utility rooms. That's for Finger Joint.
Can you tell the difference? Mmmmm, yes, but once it's painted nicely, you will never know.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
"would I be able to tell the difference once it is all painted? "
not if it's painted correctly.
I'm not a painter ... but use one who I consider to be one of the best. and all I know is he fully expects to know what materials are used when I call for a phone bid ... and he does work differently when MDF is added to the mix. His work always comes out looking great ... but when I add MDF he definitely does different prep work. Used a different primer too.
"I've read that even MDF absorbs paint differently on it's "end-grain". Or is there an easy way to seal/fill the end-grain before painting? "
myself ... I always return end grain on wood ... and usually don't "return" mdf.
my painter does seal the end "grain" ...
so all that added up ... I'd say price it out with a top notch primer/sealer.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I used Poplar base, and a mix of pine and MDF for my window/door casings on my house. But this is after I did it in a dozen houses around town. After I saw it all finish painted I was convinced that it does finish out good.
When I got to trimming out a few windows and a door in my place I wanted something different but didn't want to pay the premium for it. Wider casing, sills, and a built up headcasing. If I remember right I have less than $200 into 5 windows, 1 door, 60' of 5" poplar base and two register covers.
I even made my register covers out of MDF. I had some concerns about these but I wanted something different. I figured I'd build one out of inexpensive MDF and see how it weathers the storm. It has held up very nice and the joints are as tight as the day I glued them up.
I end return everything that doesn't run into a wall or something else. In the first picture the piece of casing under the sill is end returned with glue and 23 gauge pins.
View Image
Matt
Edited 9/23/2007 7:07 am ET by Stilletto
First pictures were bad, too blurry to see anything.
Matt
Whew! I thought it was just me!
"What I'm wondering is if I used pine or poplar for places that would see more abuse (doors, base), and MDF for things like window casing, would I be able to tell the difference once it is all painted?"
I'm a DIYer; I've done the same thing in my own house, using wood in high traffic areas and in tiled kitchen and baths (reduced risk of water damage), and mdf elsewhere. Nobody has noticed the difference except me, but there is a bit of a difference.
If you use pine, you need to be careful about knots and raised grain tramsmitting through the paint -- it will look significantly different. You'd need to select your pine carefully, wipe down with water to raise the grain, and then sand smooth (perhaps multiple times). Then prime and paint.
"On a related note: for paint grade work, do people recommend doing mitered returns for all exposed end grain? I've read that even MDF absorbs paint differently on it's "end-grain". Or is there an easy way to seal/fill the end-grain before painting?"
You can fill the end-grain/sawn edges with topcoat/joint compound, or a filler like Timbermate. I milled my own flat trim, and used that to seal the sawn edges. Sand, prime, and paint.
Good luck,
soj
rich
What I'm wondering is if I used pine or poplar for places that would see more abuse (doors, base), and MDF for things like window casing, would I be able to tell the difference once it is all painted?
Here are some examples of some work I did on a house earlier this year, you tell me if you can see the diff between the poplar and the MDF?
As Buck said, use a good painter - there will be no way to see the difference.
Doug
Edited 9/23/2007 10:07 pm ET by DougU
wow, that's awesome! Be sure to give us a step-by-step next time you do one like that - I need to be educated!
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
uhhh ...
that stuff on the middle is stone?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
that stuff on the middle is stone?
Are you sure! Maybe our painter is that good..........
Doug
Rich,
I had to read your post twice to see if that wasn't me posting the question! I had the same questions as you but I had enough back issues of Fine Homebuilding to answer most of my questions. I used all the types of wood and wood product to build my trim. Poplar for the header cap, FJP for the Fillet pieces, and MDF for the casing and 1x5 header. As for mitered returns, I didn't do it for any of the trim, but I think that was mostly the style I was going for. The chamfer detail on the header caps were routed on the end grain so I didn't have to do a return. For the exposed MDF end cuts, I slathered a thin coat of dry wall mud. The painters used oil based primer to seal all the wood. Attached are some before and after pictures.
Poplar and MDF go well together. After proper prep, prime and paint, there will be no difference in the look.
Use an oil-based primer, latex will "raise the grain" of the milled edges of MDF giving you a sandpaper-like texture.
Prime, scuff sand, then two topcoats, either oil or latex.
I've used MDF to trim doors and windows then added a poplar back band to take the inevitable abuse.
Mongo
I've done extensive work in my own house using MDF, tearing out the old and milling my own stock from 3/4 sheets. Yes I did it to save $ and I too like the painted look. It has held up just fine. Contrary to what was said, I have used it in my bathrooms as door & window casings and it has held up just fine through many steamy showers. Just properly paint 2 coats and glue the joints.
Yes, you can return miters, I always do, and any end grain should be primed well with an oil (must be oil) primer, then sanded and reprimed if necessary. The paint prep work is key to making it look good as it is an any trim.
I have saved a ton of money.
The down side is working with the stuff. It's heavy as hell, the dust is terrible, it's really hard on the router knives and saw blades, and it will split if you're not careful. There is a bit of a learning curve. I've mixed it with poplar and pine and you cannot tell.
Thanks everybody for the feedback. It sounds like the MDF is a viable option, but may increase the labor a bit. I'll see what I have more of as I get ready to buy the trim: time or money (probably not enough of either!).Some great pics! People on this site do really nice work. It really gives me something to shoot for on my own jobs.-Rich
I'm not sure about the increasing labor part. The positives about MDF, its all nice and true. There is no tossing out twisted and cupped pieces of trim. When you rip long pieces, it doesn't bind the splitter on your table saw (yes, I almost always use a splitter on y saw) because there's no wood tension released. Dull tools? I'm realizing that my time is worth more than a dull blade or two.Also, as far as I can tell, only the exposed cuts on the MDF may need any additional sealer, and even then, I'm not sure if it did, because I know I missed coating a couple of long edges on the casing, the painter insisted it would be fine with a couple of coats of oil-based primer and they were right. So maybe it doesn't even need the coating of diluted Elmers glue or Dry-wall compound.
I've successfully used thinned elmer's glue as a primer for cut MDF edges. Coat it, let dry, lightly sand to knock down the edges. Another post-er mentioned thinned drywall mud, and I believe multiple primer coats will work.
As a remodeling firm estimator and former carpenter i always spec out MDF. the last project i did in the field had about 10 sheets milled into base and casing and even routed into base cap. going to the house today 4 years later every joint is still as tight as the day i installed it. when you look around the house at the wood doors and such you clearly can see movement. We have our local lumber yard cut it to our specs so it is easier to store and carry on site. plus it eats up their blades and not ours. I never returned end cuts, just gave them a good sanding with an orbital and let the painters work their magic. for longer pieces in false beams or long runs of base a scarf joint, good glue, a bit of bondo, and sanding and you couldnt tell it wasnt one long piece of stock. It accepts paint even better than real wood.Wear a dust mask though it will dry you out quickly.