Hey guys,
Do you buy your trim molding (expected most do) or do you make your own (probably rare folks that do).
And if you’re a buyer like most do you have trouble finding just what you wantneed?
I ask as I have been considering investing in Williams & Hussey machine as I can never find exactly what I want but am thinking I’m going to have to make and sell some trim to help justify the cost.
Years ago one of the respected posters here (name withheld as I don’t like to use other folks names without asking) and myself exchanged ideas on this and I wondered what anyone elses thoughts were.
I now find myself with plenty of shop space so thats not an issue. Can a small shop make and market trim or is that best left to the bigger guys and lumberyards?
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Mike
Replies
Mike - I buy what I need, and try to stick with some more or less standard profiles, or combinations thereof. Between the wood and the plastic, there are a lot of them out there to chose from.
I've made some moldings, not using the molding machine you are talking about, rather a table saw and/or router set up. I did it for the fun of it. I found it time consuming and not worthwhile from an economic standpoint. If you have the set up, maybe you can finish more product faster and it will be a good deal for you.
There is a company nearby that does mostly custom moldings. They charge well, and they tell you up front that you pay for special cutters and they keep them. They have a good selection of woods too. They have been in business for about 10 years and are a respected business around here. It can be done. (Some of their machines are massive. Lotsa capital investment.)
Good luck.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I found a millwork shop in Rochester, MN that has a really good selection and if they don't have it they can make it. Where are you?
Where abouts are ya Basswood? Have you ever tried Root River Hardwoods down in Preston? They make some great looking trim.
Mike
I'm in Winona, but work in Rochester quite often. I've wanted to visit Root River Hardwoods for some time, but have not yet. I just purchased some nice poplar casing & base from Millwork Plus in Rochester...funny little shop, run by a Persian fellow.
I figured Millwork Plus was the place you were talking about; I've seen their ad on channel 6 quite a few times. Do they mill trim right at their store?
I've never dealt with the guys in Preston, but Root River also has a store near me over in Albert Lea; seems like I'm in there every other day. I get a lot of hardwood lumber, sheet goods, stair parts, etc. from them. Great guys to deal with.
Hows the work over your way?
Mike
I don't own a William's and Hussey but I make a lot of my own trim, especially baseboard, with the tablesaw, routers, and hand tools. So I'll throw in my two cents.
There is a market among some commercial gc's I know for relatively small runs of trim, like when they are building out commercial spaces and splitting an office or conference room into several smaller spaces they need say 100 feet or so of base, a lot of times the lumberyard might not carry the profile they need and they aren't going to bother with a profile gauge and milling on site. This type of work definitely pays for the tools, whether it'll pay for your labor at the rate you want..that could be questionable. I tend to think with a W&M machine it'd easily make you a little money between supplying your own trim on jobs and making some for others; I like doing it myself as an excuse to play around with my handplanes. I've done a bunch of rosettes, some oddly ogeed stuff, milled out about 200 feet of basecap for a residential job where the house was a 100+ years old, and some astragal moldings for doors.
-Ray
HEY Mike,
I don't think you can be competitive with just standard or regular old profiles.
But,.....
Consider,regular profiles for radius openings.
Or,.......
wood species cherry, walnut, knotty pine,etc, etc.
DAVE
I buy 99.99% of all the moulding I install. My regular yard carries a large selection, and can quickly get others. There's also 2 custom mills within 45 minutes from me, where I can get special and hardwood trim.
I do occasionally make some trim for restoration jobs, but like the others, it's with table saw, router, and/or planes. I've got about 40 of my great-grandfather's moulding planes, which I've used ( in rare instances).
I've long wanted a W&H machine. Maybe someday.
Hey guys,
Thankls for the replies!
I'm in Florida and am somewhere in between being able to buy what I wantneed but also having to pay top dollar for it. Many times I end up ordering it and having it shipped. Costly yes, but I get what I want as only one place in my area stocks anything in oak or maple.
My thoughts would be exactly what a few of you said. We're contractors anyway and my thought would be to run molding for our own jobs and market the rest on the side. One of those things you can do on a Sunday or rainy day of just "playing" in your shop.
Maybe do the marketing to commercial buildouts (small banks, doctors, laywers offices, etc) stressing the unique profile or species.
The nearly $2k price tag on the machine is the only thing holding me back... :)
Mike
It depends on the situation.
Much of the time I find I can use stock moulding. There are three different supply houses around where I live that have quite a huge supply, and they can get specialty orders within a few days.
The box stores really don't have what I need except for the very basic like shoe or basecap. When I'm working on an old house that calls for a unique piece, I can usually make it on the saw or router table, or if I can't do that there is a great mill shop 15 minutes from my house that has a huge inventory of knives and they will grind a profile if needs be.
I would say that a small moulding biz could turn a profit if you're in the right area (old houses) and have a good supply of different profiles.
I think the decision has a lot to do with where you live and the local suppliers. When I had my shop in SoCal, there were too many places where I could get a pretty good selection of moldings. I just usually designed my work around what was available.
I own a W/H molder and Viel profile grinder that I purchased though an ad in FWW/FHB. With what I was doing at the time, it was something that was worth the purchase because they molding were all small runs. The set up charges, knife grinding charges and waiting times were not in the required time frame. There were many times that it was easier to throw some knives in the shaper or W/H than the time it took to fight traffic to go to the supplier.
Since then, I have used it to do some sub work for friends and I have made a decent profit on them, but not enough to justify it as a sole purchase. Now it just sits in a corner gathering dust and I have even considered selling it because of space-no, it's not for sale ;~)
Where I live now, There is a decent mom/pop hardwood yard in Chico, Ca that has decent moldings in various hardwoods, but most lengths that don't exceed 10'. Doesn't help when I have a mantel that needs a crown profile of 11' in either cherry or white oak.
As an additional thought, have you considered a shaper with a corrugated type knife system instead of a W/H?. This might be more in line for a lot of other things like smaller moldings, doors.
Hmmmm...Hadn't thought of the shaper idea...I do have a small one just have to find profile knives for it...if they exist?
Follow up if I may: I know you said its not for sale but can you tell me how you like your W&H? Run well, easy to maintain, well-built?
Thanks!
Mike
As others have said, I really think it depends on the type of houses you're working on, as well as whether you need stain or paint grade moldings.If you are working mainly new construction, I doubt if running your own molding would make much financial sense. If you're doing a lot of restoration work in old houses, that might be another story. If the stuff is paint grade, you might be able to find what you need. But if you need stain grade in a particular species, then a W&H might be a good investment, since you can pretty much match other moldings in the house. Almost any metro area will have a bunch of guys who already own a molding machine, and would probably welcome a a few jobs on the side for pin money. Woodmaster will even send you the names of people who own their machines in your area. Maybe RBI and W&H will too. On the other hand, if you bought the machine for your own work, you could probably earn enough to pay for it by hustling some of the GC's in your vicinity.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Good points about stain grade.I got mine because when I needed moldings custom matched to the old houses here with patterns no longer available, the custom wood shop was always too backlogged to keep me on schedule. Having it has been a boon to my business becuase it sets me apart as a guy who wants to do it righ, instead of just slammin in some modern moldings that are 'close enuf'. When I do a remo or addition, it looks like it has always been a part of the house once finished. The WH is a major part of that.As far as cost to produce the moldings, I don't see any way to compete with modern junk on a custom machine. That would be a waste of time. On a new job, I just buy it. Windsor one has become my faorite there.
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Piffin
You mentioned that you bought your W&H used, did it have the feeder or was that something that you were able to add?
Just currious, got a friend that has one and he says that his dont have the feeder and he was wondering if he could add it, I never seen the darn thing so I dont know why he'd ask me but.......
Also can you add the eliptical atachment to yours or does it have to be a newer model, as you can tell I know absolutly nothing about the machine but my friend knows less!
Doug
Edited 3/16/2006 5:42 pm ET by DougU
Mine wasn't used, I was just recommending to him that he look for a used one because there are a lot of barely used ones on the market, something I only leraned after I bought mine.I got it with the infeed and out feed rollers installed but you can buy it without them. I think i know why that option is offered. The chain drive to the feeders borrows its motive power from the center shat that the knives mount onto. So with larger cuts, you would be more apt to turn the motor down or pop a breaker.My sub who haasa two of these has figureed it out finally. You know how the Wodmaster has a separate moptor with a variable speed? Phil has one of his with a separate in feed instead of the built in ones. The bench mount with that means things are extremely stable without vibrations and fewer chattermarks. Plus he can choose which speed to drive it through.I have said a lot about chatter marks, but I don't want to give the wrong impression. Most stock run thru the WH - the marks are not even noticeable to the average person, but we get particularAnyway, your friend could do one of two things if he wanted their rollers built in. He could call them and let them talk him thru what he needed to order and how to put it together, or he could just ship it back to them and let them take care of it.
The latter would be my choice, becaue I hate mechanical work, and because they know their business, and would be more likely to noitice a minor insufficiency in the machine. It's a tough machine. I remember reading before I bought mine in an article about one that had been in somebodys shop for something like 75 years of regular use before the owner sent it in for a tune up! That might have had something to do with my decision to get WH instead of Woodmaster or the RBII don't use their elliptical attachment. There are others on the market too.
I built my own floor that is fairly nice and large. It is MeDEX
so I can drill a guid intoit if I want, or use clamps to position guides. Once you get set up, It's just about as easy to mill a curved casing or elliptical as it is to run strainght stock. i've never tried recurving it from the back side of the machine. I suppose you could (thanks for planting the idea) if the radii weren't too tight, but it would be more dangerous.let's see if I have those pictures of it...
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You can see enopugh to know how the drive mechanism works from these, esp the one looking down in with the shell top off.see how I wrote on it "UNPLUGGED?"? I don't want myself or anybody else forgetting to unplug before reaching into that maw.And since I'm mechanicly challenged, I also noted "9/16"" with a marker to remember the size socket needed for knife changes.The belt onthe back side transfers power from the motor down under toi the main shaft with the knives on it. On the near side is the transmission, with two little bicycle chains to transfer that movement over sprockets to the two axii for the feed rollers. You can see on the yellow exit feeder where it has been worked hard.
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Piffin
Thanks, I'll print this out and give it to him.
I'm with you on the mechanics deal, I don't have any mechanical ability, don't really want any either, I know my limits when it comes to that sort of stuff.
On another note, I was at a yard sale many years ago and they had a W&H machine sitting there, didn't know what it was, thought to myself, $75 for a 6 or 7" planner, no way! the darn thing didn't look like it had been used much either. :(
Doug
Oh Well!ps I'll take ten at that price;)
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Well, I'm now officially "looking" for a used one so if anyone gets any leads, I'd appreciate hearing about them. I saw one on ebay but its only slightly less than buying direct from W&H.
Also have a machinery broker keeping an eye out for me and of course will browse and search as I can.
Thanks
Mike
Look for a used one! A lot of the times, they are on the market including a selection of cutters - where the owner used it for one job and then just needs to be shed of it.When I bought mine it was about $1500 with a Baldor motor and the stand. There were several around for about 8-9 hundredd shortly after that. One of my subs liked mine so much he now owns two, plus his 3HP large Shaper which is used for different kinds of work. The W&H has the power feed which the shaper dows not.It is VERY solidly built. The two thing I would look at to assess used is the infeed and outfeed rollers - they are made to be replaced and that is minor, but they might also indicate how hard the machine was used. Same with wear onthe drive belt to the motor.
Also look for signs of charring - overheating in the interior metal surfaces. There is an oil cup to keep the works lubed, but some guys figure that is too much trouble ( Hacks!) I don't know if it would pay to be running only a hundred feet for someone, unless they agree to full cost. Around here, most guys charge a fee to set up, a knife fee, and a cost per foot or hourly to actually run the stock. The set up fee is bnecause it takes time, and you will rarely re-set the second time around to get a perfect match.So if the customer wants a hundred feet, you run it, and then next week he wants another fifty feet...
The knife fee is necessary because if you have to grind or have ground, the knives, it is not cheap. If you already have the needed knives, they get worn and dulled and need re-sharpenning.
It really isn't a good idea to try working those fees into a per foot charge, because you will have a run of 150' and then another for 2000', but th eset up time is nearly the same.To run stock regularly for bucks, you would have to have a tablesaw, a planner, and space, plus dust collection equipment.
Could start with just saw and the WH though. Full sized planners will run flat stock a whole lot faster than the WH, and it can save plenty of knife changes to have a dedicated planner.
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Thanks, Piffin. As always your input is valuable and appreciated...
Mike
I was just thinking that if I wee trying to do a business in this, I would definitely opt to buy that Viel grinding machine to cut my own knives.
I got into it by buying the knives for one job which took a few years and a good million dollars to finish, so the thing paid for itself, but as I go forward and need to have another set or two ground annually, I can see that it would have paid for itself.here is another tip - do not ever FAX a drawing of a profile you need made up to the person grinding the knife. A fax can stretch or shrink the profile and change the aspect ratio so that what you get is not what yuou want.Draw it carefully to scale and send it priotity post. Better yet, send them a sample of the molding you are replicating.because the blades to cut n ellipse are backasswards from the normal mill pattern, you want to be very specific wityh your purchase order exactly which way you want it run. My last set were milled 180° away from what I wanted and because my drawing and purchase order had all the info detailed so an idiot could get it right, I didn't have to pay to re-cut the knives.But I learned the hard way with a 7" set once when I faxed the drawing. Got two sets of a pattern I've only used for maybe 120'!some items will require double sets of blades - for instance a T&G floor will need one set for the tongue and one for the groove. A crown needs one for the front and one for the back.There are some old patterns that can be made from two pieces and combined on installation to be able to use smaller stock and not waste as much shavings or work the machine too hard. Do that and you'll see breakers popping and machine marks in the surface.they design the machine to run a perfect finish on one pass through, which works fione on smaller pieces, but for one 4" or more wide, I see too much chatter marks, so I have a couple techniques to fight that and make it possible to break it into two or three passes.One more thing - Keep you fingers away from the machine when feeding it - no loose shirt cuffs, and always unplug it when you are changing knives.
Please?
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