I was part of a tour to this area, and saw some interesting things. Being on a tour, I was not able to get to a lot of construction areas, but I thought I would make some brief comments on what I saw. Rather than make this too long, I will only touch on things. I will gladly expand (expound!?) on any topics if asked.
AUTOBAHN: Yes they drive fast. The bus I was in did not go more than about 120 km/hr. But the slower drivers are ALWAYS in the right lane regardless of the number of lanes. No “hats” in the middle lane. And, speed limits are seen in congested areas. Sometimes the speed limit varies with the lanes.
AUTOBAHN LANES: Our bus was 2.5 meters wide (about 8 ft). I swear that the lanes were maybe 3.5 meters wide.
AUTOBAHN CONSTRUCTION: A lot, especially in the eastern part. When they combine two directions on one side, the inner lane is only 2 meters wide (6 feet).
CITIES: Stone, stone, stone. Lots of apartments. Green spaces abound, often small corners. Larger plots are subdivided into gardens used by individuals. This especially in the old East German area.
GASOLINE: 3.5 Euro per liter ($4.75 per liter, and 3.6 liters per gallon!)
CARS: Teeny! What else? Lots of the new Smart cars.
PUBLIC TRANSIT: Holy Mackeral! Everywhere! Cities as small as 25,000 people have an extensive bus line that is ridden by all ages. Leipzig and Prague have massive tram (streetcar) lines. The cars are standing loads even at 2300 (11 pm).
Replies
Were there any nice subdivisions with nice some nice comfy 3000 sf new homes?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
Well, when I lived there in the late 90s there weren't. In fact in all of Europe, I have only ever seen a subdivison in Scotland and the homes still weren't that big.
Mike
Thanks, I was just curious. I've seen a lot of posts in here that seem to imply that everything about Europe is better than everything here. I was curious about how much a normal 3000 sf new home cost. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I visited Sweden, Denmark and Prague a couple years ago. From what I saw in Sweden mostly is that there is a "Western" trend in developing subdivisions with wood framing and fiber cement siding, etc.I also noted the prices of many real estate listings that were posted on what must have been a realtor's storefront and I was shocked at the relatively low prices for a modest home. One million kronor was roughly equal to $125kUS at the time and some very nice older construction homes could be bought for around that price.There were many larger McMansions going in in the countryside, mostly belonging to foreigners or Swedes who had worked elsewhere and returned home to the small town to build a large home. It was interesting to hear my relatives go on about the "many millions" it cost to build those homes.A relative of mine just completed building a nice ~2000sf home in a little subdivision at the time of my visit - didn't ask how much but I assume it was probably <$75K.Demand for new housing seemed to be on the rise but there were just as many if not more new construction high density housing units being built too. It is not uncommon for someone to live in a small apartment and ride a bike to work or the train for an entire lifetime. Pay is fairly high in Sweden but so are taxes and living expenses. A large comfortable home is simply a luxury that not everyone can afford. Thus, the prices are not all that inflated due to a smaller demand. Also, quality trumps quantity at every point.
Edited 6/19/2008 10:15 am by Haystax
I think Americans do most things better then our European counterparts with two exceptions:
1-They incoporate into the price of an item the sales tax so there's not a bunch of small change. Over there if something is 5 Euro, it's 5 Euro, not 5.12 Euro. You hand the clerk 10 euros, you get back a 5 note. Here, if something is $5 and you hand the clerk $10 you probably get back 4 $1 bills, 2 quarters, 1 dime, a nickel and a bunch pennies.
2- They do their land planning much better. There's very few "developments" stuck out in the middle of nowhere in some former cornfield. Go to any virtual mapping website and compare Europe with America. The development there is much more compact, not only reducing the need for a car but imparting a sense of place to the man made environment.
Runnerguy
Blue,
It's normal in Europe for homes to remain in families for centuries.
That means that the mortage isn't really ever paid off usually but passed from father to son. 50 year mortages are the norm.. With such an instrument superior construction is the norm. Our flimsey homes are looked upon with disdain by Europeans.
3000 sq.ft. isn't required either. Massive closets holding decades worth of shoddily made clothing isn't the norm. Nor are giant sized kitchens holding countless Christmas/birthday gifts of dubious value.
Efficency is important rather than sheer size.
We have a great deal to learn from them.. If we're ever going to achieve the quality of life we seek..
<font color=red>"We have a great deal to learn from them.. If we're ever going to achieve the quality of life we seek.."</font><P>And what are the qualities of life that we seek?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon Blakemore,
Efficiency and a lack of waste. If you've been to much of Europe you'll note how tidy and well kept everything is.. That's because it's like some of our better planned gated communities.
It's easy when frequent services provide owners with easy methods to deal with things like recycling or waste disposal. When mass transit provides you with convenient and cheap transportation..
My wife has a bus come by and take her to work. It actually takes less time to ride downtown than to drive and park downtown.. Not to mention the cost is a tiny fraction of the cost of driving.. Her monthly bus pass is $42.00. Driving a car will cost her around $750/$800 a month.
IN addition she gets a nice little nap coming home and gets to chat with her friends going.
Have you ever lived in one of those small towns where everyone has a nice sitting porch right near the sidewalk? You can either sit and rock on the porch or walk the sidewalks and chat with neighbors..
IN American bedroom communities so common in most suburbs that doesn't occur. the front lawns are large and pretentious requiring a lot of fertilizer and effort to maintain. It also makes for a boring walk where there is a real lack of community.. Everybody hides behind automatic grage doors and only rarely interacts with neighbors.
Europe tends to be more like those small towns. neat efficent well planned and organized..
Everything is clean, huh? We must have visited different parts.It's been over a decade, but I remember some quite dirty parts of Europe.BTW- did you notice that your support for the "European" way of life was a two paragraph anecdote about how your wife, who I presume lives in America, enjoys mass transit?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
either you were in the dirty parts ...
or you traveled without your rose colored glasses.
same results.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I found most of Europe to be pretty clean. (Although I didn't go all over)France was the only major exception. I hope to never go back there as long as I live.
The only time France wants us to go to war is when the German Army is sitting in Paris sipping coffee. [Regis Philbin]
Paris and Venice were the dirty areas, IIRC.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
What would you like? A comparison of the way I built my home versis the American standard? I've done that to death.. A comparison of the negative parts of American life? Again that's been done to death. America does have an important position. Democracy, first developed in Greece came to it's real strength when our forefathers threw some British tea into the Boston harbor..
Thus democracy isn't an original idea but vastly improved.. Ford took auto production to new levels again based on some ideas developed in Europe.. Our aircraft carriers origins came from Britain and in fact much of what we take pride is of European origin.
America has been blessed and in turn we have squandered much of our blessing on greed.. That greed will be our downfall and ultimate failure..
It isn't a one way street we learn for others and others gain from us.. But first we must learn to recognize value when we see it..
I'm not saying that Europe is worthless, but I do get tired of people who are so quick to point out that the US is greedy, prideful, war-mongering, etc.As Merle said, "if you don't love it, leave it".We have a huge illegal immigration problem in this country. Are the immigrants coming here so stupid that they don't realize that Europe is where the action really is?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
You mean to tell me that Europe does not have an immigration problem? Probably worse than ours.Not "love it or leave ", better yet "make it better for all". How many middle income people with a decent job in Europe emigrate here. Those who come are mainly the poor who have no hope of economic advancement in their own country, that goes for Europe as well as the USA.
"the poor who have no hope of economic advancement in their own country"Thanks for making my point. I don't think the "land of opportunity" is just a slogan- I really believe it. Maybe you don't, and that's fine, but there are plenty of examples of the little guy making it "big".
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore..
When you went to school did everybody always tell you that you did everything perfectly? Nobody ever bothered to correct your mistakes or mention where you go be improved?
America can be better than it is.. all it requires is attention and a will to improve.
Don't take it like a personal insult. Just be aware that there can be improvements and it's not unpatriotic to point out the countries flaws. In fact it's unpatrotic to ignore the flaws.. It's about accountablity.. republicans sure whine about others but fail to stand up and accept responsibility for their own short comings..
Just be aware that there can be improvements and it's not unpatriotic to point out the countries flaws.
Frenchy, I'm not trying to come out with a personal attack, but I think that all of your posts in this thread have been negative about the US. You did speak fondly of the mass transit that your wife uses, but you were using that as a support to why Europe does it better (an anecdote that still confuses me).
We have such a great country, but so many are only willing to look at the negatives.
It's about accountablity.. republicans sure whine about others but fail to stand up and accept responsibility for their own short comings..
I didn't realize this was a political issue.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon,
My post may seem negative to those with pollyanna like views of our nation.. As I've pointed out I served two tours in Vietnam, That makes me a patroit. I also have run for Mayor of my town and do my civic duty when called upon.
I am extremely proud of the many good things about our nation but not blind to where she needs to improve.. It's how I raised my children.. I provided them with love and guidance. They knew when they could do better and understood that I would help them anyway they needed help.
The nation has to look around and note where others have done better.. they must be willing to adapt those or even improve upon them or we will fall behind and fail..
"What would you like? A comparison of the way I built my home versis the American standard? "
GOD Please NO .... NOT AGAIN!
anything but that ... Please .....
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Frenchy,About two months ago my wife's father was in a hospital, he was 91, and dying. One of the doctors had an accent and my wife recognized it as Eastern European so she asked him where is he from, he said "Croatia", and my wife said "then you speak Hrvatski". The doc asked her "how do you know the word "hrvastski". My wife replied "because my husband speaks it". They talked and then she asked him if he was going to stay here in the USA and he said "no", wife asks "why", he replies "because I will have a better life there".When she told me this story, she mentioned to me that I always say that the average European has a much better life than we do here.Yes, things have changed in Europe and I regret seeing McDonalds, Pizza Huts, KFC there. I remember a sandwich once outside of Vienna..so good! The food is so much better there.Last week on "60 Minutes" they asked some Danish students who have returned home from studying here if they would stay in the USA and one replied "I would not want my children growing up there". I've heard that from Latinos and many Europeans.Yes, we have so much to learn. We are for quantity while they are for quality of life.
Edited 6/20/2008 1:27 pm ET by Zano
"We are for quantity while they are for quality of life."That's a pretty broad stroke of the brush. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's a pretty broad stroke of the brush.
For sure. If it's so great there, why do half my neighbors, relatives by marraige, customers and aquaintances have European accents?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
After three months in Germany, France and Italy my daughter was so glad to get home that she wanted to kiss the ground when she landed. Everyone is different. When I lived on the lake, the neighbor hooked up with a guy from Germany. He was doing everything and anything he could to get out of Germany and stay in America. He's still here ten years later. He told me that only the ultra, ultra rich could afford the little 1100 sf cottage that I was living in. I had paid 129k for it back then but according to him, it would take a millionaire's salary to live on our little lake. He told me that they were all gated roads and the "common" blue collar worker couldn't even get a glimpse of the water much less live on it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
re the cost of lakefront property in Germany.. It is extremely expensive and seldom comes on the market but let's put a bit of perspective on it. Germany has 138,000 sqmiles of land area compared to California's 156,000, Germany has 82 million population compared to only 36 million in California. Lakefront property in California is already priced out of the reach of the average 'blue-collar' worker. If the population of California more than doubled to the density of Germany, the operative word would be that it required a multi millionaire to be able to acquire a lakeside property. Any high density area will be more expensive ;the trade-off is the availability of amenities, health care, career opportunities, etc of living in a metropolitan area. Different stokes for different folks.
While he may have envied the lakefront cabin, he probably failed to mention that the average 'blue-collar' worker in Germany has a very nice rate of pay and even tho he will pay a higher rate of tax on his income, he will have an extremely high quality of health care for his family paid fro through the taxes, will not have to worry if his children will be able to go to university because it will be mostly subsidised by the government, when he started work as an apprentice, he was entitled to four weeks vacation in his first year and probably goes to six weeks very shortly and he will have worked a 37.5 hour week.
You can't hunt or fish without paying-and knowing someone well who belongs to the "hunt club". You can hike (Volksmarch) in the public forests as long as you stay on the trails. You can also discuss traffic violations with Jackbooted Policei (sp?) holding mp5's or uzis.
You can get punched in the nose for tapping your temple with your finger (Du hast Vogel in die kopf) You have a bird in your head.
And, in 1977 gas was $4.00 a gallon. How much is it now?
Stef
Edited 6/23/2008 12:47 pm ET by fatboy2
I live in Spain 9 months a year and go back to Kentucky to work for 3. I cant say which is better. We live for the weekend in Spain (looong work days in construction) and I hate to hear people wishing their life away. But everybody gets 1month vacation min.
Dudley? Is that you?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
It sure Logan. Hope all is well. My message turned out true for today. Weather was beautiful we went to the beach in the morning, birthday party in the afternoon, meson for dinner Left at 11 A.M. back at midnight. Kids happy, healthy and tan. But it is Saturday. Monday back at work busting my fat a** on a roof for 10 hours (lunch an hour not included) and everyday of the week will be like that. That is how it is for me in Europe. Work is harder and less efficent, the weekends are fantastic and more holidays. At least that is how it is for me I'm sure that others have had other experiences.
Was just talking about you the other day. I ran into your buddy Eddie and his kids at the grocery. A couple of months ago I was sending Chalio to Mike Egan's job and told him to find Mike. He was confused about who Mike was. He asked me if he was the gringo who spoke the funny Spanish. I just now figured out who he was talking about.
Give Carmen and the kids my best. Sounds like all is well. I guess you won't be back 'til fall?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
84% of British think that Americans are overly concerned about money. Not a broad stroke at all. In the summer in Austria they get off from work on Friday afternoon and then every weekend another town has a festival, same in Hungary because each town celebrates a particular saint. You go from one town to another. They dress up in the native costumes (the older ones do), eat, drink, dance and enjoy life while most Americans are working on Saturday, most work over 40 hours, just to pay for that big SUV.I met a painter on a job here about 7 years ago, I got to know him. We talked and he said he was from Latvia and I asked him if he was from Riga and he said that he's been here 9 years and I'm the first one who knew Riga. He said he would stay another few years, when his kids become teenagers he's going back because he does not want his kids growing up here. He laughed and agreed when I told him how bad the food is here!As one the most prominent American said and I do quote: "The whole world is laughing at how stupid Americans are", mainly referring to Iraq. But having spent some time in Europe I assure you they enjoy life better than we do.Weddings last into the wee hours, here they play "the bride cuts the cake" at 9:00 and throw you out at 11:30, it's called "enjoying life".Answer: Donald Trump
"84% of British think that Americans are overly concerned about money."That doesn't mean it's true. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Oh yes it is..greed here is all over the place. Americans are overly concerned about money..they should be with the cost of education and medical care. Hell a million dollars is just a starter for both!
Edited 6/22/2008 7:00 am ET by Zano
greed does not equate to "overly concerned about money".People who don't have enough money are concerned, but not overly concerned. Greedy people will do anything to get more money or hold onto whatever they have. They won't use it for what they need it for. In my travels, I'd say only 1% of the people I know are greedy. The rest are hard working people trying to provide a decent home for themselves and their family. I know a lot of people who keep mom home to raise the kids. That's how I did it and I still had a comfortable home, decent transportation etc. The characterization of most americans being greedy and overly concerned with money is just a false assumption by those folks overseas that have never traveled here. Just because they think it, doesn't mean its true. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue,
I'm sorry but that's a bit Pollyanna-ish. I'm reluctant to label everybody with the same brush, because clearly we both know of exceptions..
Americans have become jaded to a degree.. the government instead of reflecting the values of the people of the nation seems focused on benefiting the business of the the nation.. since it requires major funds to impact politicians the directions come from major business not average people.
As result we tend to hunker down and concern about ourselves to the exclusion of those less fortunate..
Instead of helping those members of our church who need help.. the elderly and the impoverished. We build expensive buildings and devote an inordinate amount to benefiting ourselves.. We're oblivious to real need and are quick to condemn those who fail to measure up to some imaginary standard..
It's absolutely true that some people have helped beyond their means and some people are dedicated to benefiting others.. My wife for example seldom buys anything for herself instead saving her funds for the children and grandchildren..
But that isn't what makes TV shows like desperate housewives. Those Malls aren't Mecca's to doing good deeds but rather self indulgence.
Too many Corvettes, Porsches, and Jaguars are sold to middle age men anxious to trade in their wife who may have dedicated herself to the family to find a trophy wife.
OH I know plenty of people who put their shoulder to the grindstone in an attempt to improve the quality of life for their family. However that alone tends to place some values on benefiting their family while ignoring real need for others..
Many of my neighbors buy jet ski's and snowmobiles for their kids rather than set aside funds for good works..
Edited 6/22/2008 9:12 am ET by frenchy
If your neighbors didn't buy those jet skis, the workers at the jet ski factory and the jet ski sales room would be out of a job. How do you know that your neighbors are buying jet skis and also contributing to charities or whatever. Tell me this. Which nation is the most generous nation on earth? Who gives more of their tax payer dollars to help the citizens of other nations? Is it France? Is it Germany? Is it England?Is it Canada?Is it the United States? Is it Denmark? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue
Considering our economic size I'm sure it's America,, but that's like saying America is more generous than Minnesota or Florida..
I'll bet he meant on a per capita basis.
Consider the enormity of our foreign aid programs. That's a pretty healthy chunk of every citizen's money to aid the needy.
Stef
Actually, I was just pointing out that we're all not the greedy basterds that they want to tell us we are. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
these threads always crack me up.
americans are the root of all evil and europeans are born without character flaws and personality defects.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yeah only in Europe can someone keep one's children in the cellar for 20 years and no one have a clue about it. What about the CZ woman in Brno who kept her children in cages - what great examples of European superiority!!
Haystax,
Sorry it happens all the timne here in America as well, recently a girl was kept in dog kennals in the garage for years locally..
There are sicko's thoughout the world..
I might have been to Croatia once or even twice. Hell, I caused a damned international incident there.
I didn't realize that the life of a Doctor sucked so bad in the U.S. cause I couldn't think of a single way it could be better than here other than he just missed home.
Come to think of it, I've been to a lot of Eastern Europe and I can't think of a country outside of Hungary I would want to spend a night in.
And I'm not even sure how cool Hungary is based on the fact that there is a LONG list of Hungarian police officers trying to get sent to this pi$$hole where I'm at now.
Turns out Rome pays them TWICE what they get paid back home(or about 1/3 of what a Staff Sergeant makes) and that's about the only way they see to be able to save enough to buy anything bigger than a cardboard box for their families.
I think you and I have had this conversation before, but I remain unimpressed by Eastern Europe.
Bob,Everyone likes their own culture and their own people; they like the lifestyle that they grew up in. Maybe this doctor does not need to make $250,000 per year and work 6 days, worry about insurance costs, worry about getting sued, saving for his kids education. He did mention to my wife that his costs here are all paid for by the Croatian government.You should have watched that "60 Minutes" show last week about Denmark. Seems the Danish are the happiest in the world while Americans are ranked 27th. You would have gained insight on what I'm saying. Those young Danish ex-students say the same thing that I'm saying "quality versus quantity".The eldest brother of one of my best youth friends just went back to Hungary after 50 years. He served in Nam and now is the chief financial officer of one of the best hospitals in NYC. We are from the same town, so he took his younger sister along as a tour guide because she used to go back for the entire summer every year since she was 12 to 22, that was during the Communist days. I asked him how he liked it, he said he's going back again next year and his American wife "wants to retire there".I realize Americans think they have the best for many have not seen another country (only 12% have passports) but those of us who experienced other nations/cultures do not think that this is heaven on Earth and it's getting worse.
I do have a passport.
Two in fact.
I'll agree with your point that people always think their culture is the best.
On the other hand, I've had the chance to see a lot of these places. Most of them for more than just a few weeks. I've seen their healthcare systems and such in action.
Like I said, I remain unimpressed.
I have met a LOT of people from Eastern Europe who long for the leisurely life they enjoyed there.
I also know a lot of people from those countries that have the whole family under one roof. They have one Lada or Fiat for the whole family if they are lucky. Some have a wagon towed by a Gravely tractor looking device. IF you ever had the chance to guard a MEDCAP mission you would understand just how "Good" the healthcare system of one of these countries is. and that includes Croatia.
Yes, Hungary is a little different than the rest of Eastern Europe. But we also have started a tradition here. About once every two weeks, we buy the rum and start the fire and the Hungarians come up and cook for us while we mix the drinks. It's a generally good time.
Talking to some of the late 20's early 30's guys (and two girls) here? They don't paint the same picture as you do.
They talk about struggling and not being able to make ends meet and long waits for some essential services. They are also not to happy with the new higher education system.
Remember, I said these guys(and girls) are here to make money to try to make their lives better back in Hungary.
That makes me question just how good things are. Not too many long lines of people trying to get out of America to provide for their families.
Quality of life is subjective and I know a few guys who have retired to Poland or Hungary or Slovenia because that's where their wives are from. Their pensions make them kings. But, they all still venture home for major health care and they all still keep that money in U.S. banks.
Bob,All that you mentioned in your last post I agree with. It's not easy, it all depends on what you want in life. If you have enough food, shelter and clothing what more is needed for a good life. Surely, not a bigger house or bigger car. Yes, they pay higher taxes but get medical care in return, and other government services. Sure there are those who think that the grass is always greener on the other side. Those Danish students who studied here will probably have less material goods than the average American but as they mentioned they are happier. All education in Denmark is free! Medical care if I recall is mostly free and they only work 37 hours per week.As far as Eastern Europe, yes today in quantity they have less but give them more time and they surely reach our level while maintaining a more leisurely life style. We here work more hours per week than any in any other industrialized country..why? Some prefer it here than back home, and some don't..it's human nature.Bring a 30 age couple from Romania here, have the husband work in construction and the wife clean houses and let them work for a house mortgage, health insurance, childrens' education, food, clothing, auto, etc. and all they will be doing is working 10 hours per day forever! In 10 years have one of their children get sick and they will wish they were back and have the husband's wages lowered by illegal aliens. Fantastic life would you not say?FIATS and Ladas are no more just as we don't have any more Beetles.It's good that you have experienced other cultures..it is a mind opening experience, but 88% don't.In the Czech Republic, medical care is free. My good friend's wife has had breast cancer, she beat it a few years ago but now it's in her lungs. They went to a clinic in Houston for 5 days, total cost $30,000 because their health insurance does not cover it. I have a hernia now, I called 3 surgeons and the earliest anyone could see me was in 5 weeks and I have now to pay 20% of the cost. I called one of the gals from my Hungarian home town who is the head of all doctors in a prestigous hospital here in NJ and she speeded up the process for me. I have never been before needed surgery but now thinking that if I
or my wife will need it, all our savings could be wiped away. The USA seems to have money for the military but not for the welfare of their own citizens.Do not have a prolonged sickness sick in the USA!
"Those young Danish ex-students say the same thing that I'm saying "quality versus quantity"."I'd say the same thing if I didn't have a chance at getting the quantity. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"...the mortage isn't really ever paid off usually but passed from father to son. ... We have a great deal to learn from them.. If we're ever going to achieve the quality of life we seek."What happens if you three sons? Are two living under the bridge with the trolls? I think I'm okay with our system. I kinda like the fact that I HAVE A CHOICE to live in a 3000sf home or a 300sf home. Do they have that choice? Is it economically feasible for them to make that choice? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Does 3000 sq.ft make a home nicer and more comfy?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
No. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Does 3000 sq.ft make a home nicer and more comfy?
insulation, double pane windows, moisture control / vapor bariers and a shower you can turn around in do.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
They sure help anyway! Low monthly payment helps too. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Not in the Black Forest. We stayed with friends in 1993 outside of Strasbourg.
3 Level, 1500 sq ft, 3 br, 1.5 bath.....
Approx $1m.
Financed for 100 years.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Lots of sub-divisions with 2500 sq ft houses with full basements when I lived in south west Germany in 1993. Walls of hollow clay brick masonry stuccoed outside and plastered inside; stick-framed roofs with clay tile.As soon as the house was framed, they had a dedication ceremony. The framing crew, dressed in full traditional folk costume [Tracht] including knee britches, long stockings, leather shoes, a white shirt, tie and hat, climbed the bare rafters with a bottle of wine in one hand and affixed a small fir tree to the ridge pole. Then everyone drank wine and sang songs before they climbed back down.BruceT
Edited 6/22/2008 1:00 am by brucet9
John,
When we lived there I was really surprised the Autobahn is actually more speed-controlled than folks think. I read where now there are more areas that actually HAVE a speed limit than those that don't. BUT there was a stretch by our house where I could open it up and go 125MPH each day! Drove my wife nuts.
That was awesome. I miss that.
Mike
I was there in 1982-83 in the Army. The autobahns had no speed limits then, and were in incredible shape. I don't think I saw a pothole the whole time I was over there.
Of course - Gas was $4 a gallon back then when it was $1.50 or so back in the states. They pay a heck of a lot of taxes.
I remember all the stone houses. I think I head that they consider wood construction to be "temporary".
I used the trains a few times - always a good experience. I think I recall that 90% of their trains arrive within 2 minutes of their scheduled times. (I've waited 5 hours for an Amtrack)
I went on a border tour over by Czechoslovakia. The wall was still up then. I remember the guard towers, guards, guns, and ever present binoculars.
I thought the food over there was awesome. Did you eat out any? The food was expensive, but I was single and had money to burn.
That's all I can think of at the moment. I'd love to go back some time.
Boss,
I was stationed there in the late 70's. Great exchange rate then.
Loved the food, beer, and scenery.
Have a different wife now and wanted to take her back and show her all the neat stuff.
Sadly, "you can't go back". Nothing was the same, more expensive, food not as good, couldn't even find some of our old haunts. Tiny villages now built up with apartments, Some streets seem to have disappeared.
Very disappointing.
Stef
Where were you stationed? I spent a little time in Kahrlsruhe. But most of the time was spent at the tank training ranges in Grafenwohr.
When my Azzedine jacket from 1987 died, I wrapped it up in a box, attached a note saying where it came from and took it to the Salvation Army. It was a big loss. [Veronica Webb]
I was in Bamberg, about an hour north of Nurnbeg, with the 3rd Brigade, 1st AD. Spent some time in Grafenverhe.(How do you spell that?) Didn't care for mud, but loved shooting the Tanks. WE still had the M1A's, not the new sexy ones. What were they called, can't remember?
Seems impossible it was 30+ years ago.
Stef
Edited 6/20/2008 10:46 am ET by fatboy2
When I was in Graff, we were rebuilding the ranges for the new M1 Abrams tanks. Seemed like it was always mud or dust there - Never anything in between.
Lived in old WWII barracks that you probably also spent time in - Ten guys to a room with one outlet per room. and the bathrooms were 150'away in another building.
Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves and, under a just God, cannot long retain it. [Abraham Lincoln]
I've seen that mud literally more than knee deep. Always marveled that the tanks lubrication systems could survive it.
My first day at Hoehnfels (sp?) we moved to a FOB of tents on concrete slabs.
Each row of tents had a giant stack of pallets at the end of it.
At first we assumed they were from the tents themselves. Then one of the guys who had been there before grabbed two, carried them in the tent, put them down next to his cot and stacked all his gear on them.
Said we shoud "Do it like this or you'll be sorry".
An hour later it started to rain and within 35 minutes 4 inches of water was running rather swiftly across our little slab.
Mud wasn't as bad as Graff but damn did it rain.
Best part of CMCT was getting to see Halloween church 'cause every Armor/Cavalry guy has seen the Harmon print of either a Bradley or an M1A1 moving past the tower at Holloween church.
Second best part was climbing the hill to that CAstle that was strictly off limits
105965.13 in reply to 105965.12
I spent a little time in Kahrlsruhe. But most of the time was spent at the tank training ranges in Grafenwohr.
I feel sorry for you!!! What a hellhole. We had to go there one time with the Pershing missile units in the early 70's. It was about 20 degrees all the time we were there and we lived in some 300' long ratty concrete block barracks with a pot bellied oil stove in the center. It seemed like it was colder in there than it was outside. That was the longest month of my life.
I prefer being shot at in Vietnam for a year to spending a month at Graf!
We were there from April to October both summers that I was stationed over there. I didn't like the barracks or the post. But I was fortunate to meet some really nice people while I was there. Did you ever go up in the tower? I got to go about halfway up once. Never did make it to the top, though.
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. [Jimi Hendrix]
Did you ever go up in the tower? I got to go about halfway up once. Never did make it to the top, though.
No, I don't remember a tower. What was it used for. Was it some type of observation platform to watch the gunners?
I will never forget this one pitch black night, about 2 in the morning this friend of mine is driving a truck back to the barracks from the range in blackout conditions. They told him to follow the blackout lights of the truck in front of him. It was so dusty you couldn't see over the hood, let alone the trucks blackout lights.
He came to a junction in the road and followed a 155 howitzer out on to the range. The 155 stopped and fired with my buddy about 20 feet behind him and he literally s--- his pants. He was the butt of jokes for months afterwards!
The tower was up by the main post - It wasn't anywhere near the ranges. I really don't know anything about it. But it looked to be a hundred years old or more. So I'm sure it had nothing to do with the Army.I hated blackout drive, but fortunately didn't have to do it too often.
How young can you die of old age?
but I was single and had money to burn.
Couldn't help asking - You're single now. Got any money to burn?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
"You're single now. Got any money to burn?"
Nope - I have an XW (and her lawyer) to support in the manner to which she have become accustomed to.
Q: How do you know when your divorce is getting ugly?
A: When your lawyer doesn't seem like a bloodsucking leech anymore.
Unfortunately, I already knew the answer. I'm kinda getting in a "festive" mood. How 'bout you?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Yeah, I'm in a festive mood. But probably not for the same reason you are.(-:
When a mortician raise his rates, does the cost of living go up?
Awww. Did you tell the boys yet?http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
I went to Germany, Austria, Switzerland and Italy on my honeymoon. I'd go back to Germany and Austria for the food alone, awesome. Meat and potatoes, lots of it.
I spent a week in southern Germany (Bavaria) almost ten years ago.
Construction of new houses was not rare, but was also not abundant. But here's what I saw.
The first thing to be put on the lot, just after the surveyor's stakes, was the crane. Not a movable one, but one mounted on a pad.
Foundations were deep, probably because of the frost line.
Exterior, and some interior, walls were built with hollow ceramic block. In many cases, there was a fireplace built into the center of the house.
There was very little wood framing. Walls that were not done in block, were done with steel studs, generally.
Oh, and it was rather common to see houses (and other buildings) that were hundreds of years old.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Thats interesting. What did they need the crane for if it was stone and block construction with occasinal steel studs? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
>>Thats interesting.>>What did they need the crane for if it was stone and block construction with occasinal steel studs?Sorry it took me so long to get back.......As another has mentioned in this thread, the roof framing was done with heavy timbers -- not something a few guys could handle.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
Thanks. Thats just an interesting thing to me. I'm glad they are working smarter instead of breaking their backs on all the heavy stuff.No need to apologize for the timing. No harm intended, no harm done ;). Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
Most houses in Europe have a full cellar, ground floor, at least one other floor and a spacious attic. Very few single storey houses are built due to the high cost of building plots. One of the main reasons for cranes,(I called them the state bird of Germany when I started living there), is that the floors between storeys are reinforced concrete, even the floor between the second storey and the attic will be concrete. Many of stand alone garages will have a six inch concrete roof. Interior walls will be 8 inch cinder block. They build to last there...all heavy tile or slate roofs, in addition to very thick beams for the roofing ,the crane is used to move the heavy materials used. You will not see a development as in the US. It is practically 100% custom build. Strict codes, double glazed windows required since early '70's, triple in some areas of scandinavia.
England is different..lots of cowboy work and skimping on materials and no cellars, attics are useless as they use primarily pre fab trusses . Interior walls are metal studs and sheetrock as used in cheap and cheerful office sectioning. Lots of corner-cutting. Most houses built today in England are by developers similiar to subdivisions in the US. Just starting to enforce energy efficient standards in the UK.
Your post reflects what I've seen when touring there. I remember one project going up right outside Dinklesbuel (sp?) where we just stopped in for a look. I remember the "not very easy to move" crane sitting in front......no wheels, just supported by blocks. This thing would take the better part of a day or two to move.
All walls were constructed of the redish ceramic block. Even dormer walls were of block. Main roof framing members looked like 6X12's. Interior wiring was attached to the block surface to be embedded in the plaster when it was applied (don't know what happens when the Fraulein wants to hang up that photo of the grandkids).
What was really interesting was every house of the eight or so in varying stages of going up had a small evergreen lashed to the highest roof peak.
Runnerguy
runnerguy,
What was really interesting was every house of the eight or so in varying stages of going up had a small evergreen lashed to the highest roof peak.
Thats called the Riksfest. Its in celebration of the project meeting the milestone of that progress without anyone getting hurt and in celebration of the work being done. On days they do that, they have a pretty formal lunch with tablecloths and lines and bratwurst and yes, beer!
Steel workers in the US do something similar with an American Flag or painting the final beam and signing it that goes into place. No beer however. ;)
Having lived there a while and appreciating the custom, I even did that on my own home the day I got all the trusses set. All the neighbors wondered why there was a small tree on the top of my roof.
Mike
I have done that ever since I learned it as an apprentice from the German born carp I worked for. He said it was an old German tradition dating back to the days of the Druid religion. An offering, blessing, and request for good things for the dwelling and it's inhabitants to the tree dwelling God's.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yeah, I think its a pretty great old tradition! I saw it one or two times here and almost stopped to ask the guys on the job how they learned about it?
We used to call ours the : "Whats it tree" because we had so many people ask us "whats it up there for?"
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Thanks for the background info Mike! That's a cool custom.
Runnerguy