I put a primer coat in my daughter’s bedroom and then began painting it in the red color she wanted. When I put on the second coat, you could see every roller stroke. It is clearly looking as if the paint was not put on evenly, but I don’t know why not since I put one coat on and then the other. What can I do to fix this so that you can’t see the paint roller marks, and the room looks evenly painted!?!?? Help!!!
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Red is a tough color. You might have to do three coats. Also, you might be putting a lot of pressure on the roller when you use it which squeezes out excess paint along the edges. Go back and roll out the paint in different directions while it is still wet. Make sure that you have stirred up the paint very well before you use it.
Good luck.
Red is the most difficult color to cover with. The substances put in paint to make them hide well are white. They can't be used in red because the paint comes out pink. Therefore, the red is achieved with dyes and pigments that don't cover well, without opacifiers.
Besides what the previous poster said, are you using the correct nap roller? The best would be a 3/8" nap. Price matters in rollers, so spring for a top quality roller. You can use the same roller for the first two coats (washing it out and storing it in a Ziploc bag). Since you have a particularly difficult situation, I'd buy a new roller for the final coat.
Usually with red and other deep colors, you'd ask the paint store to tint the primer to something fairly dark. It doesn't have to match the finish color all that well. I've heard that dark gray is even used as a primer, though I haven't seen it myself.
even using black as a primer is a better way to go for red paint
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But you said "it was only paint". Thank goodness I know now, for using cranberry, to tint the primer a darker shade.
We just finished painting an office in dark maroon. We tinted the primer coat half the formula of the final coat and it covered beautifully in one coat. You sometimes can't add as much tinit as you might like because the cans come almost filled because they are not made to receive tint.
I have never painted with red. But all paint brands are not created equal. Some brands do not roll out as well as others. Just another point to consider.
For anyone interested Ill you some secrets to a great wall job. Even the best might pick up something. I do when I read others tricks.
Take a strong light that you can move around, and position it at an angle on the opposite end of the wall pointing like 45 degrees toward the wall. I use a 5oow floor model most of the time unless cathedral 1500 double, but any will do.
Start with a clean wall or new prime. Use Caulking in any expand /contract cracks if you dont retape joints. Clean up any excess caulk.
Fill all holes, depressions with joint compound or spackle, jc takes longer to dry but doesnt show much, and you dont have to sand much. If you have a lot of holes and are worried about not seeing them all when you go to sand, add a 'little' water based color to the mud and you can see it on the wall.
If you have things sticking up like punched up nail heads or big chunks take them off, or push them in (blowing out depression) and fill flat.
Once the holes are dry, spot with primer, or they will show through later being a different gloss then your finish...paint gets sucked into the mud.
If you can get your hands on a pole sander, or want to buy one, they are cheap and worth it. Otherwise use a big pad sander and lightly scuff the whole wall this "knocks off any paint crud or mud crud from the last step you have done. Do this between each coat. This will also knock down the roller edge marks for beginners.
Be diligent about the standard stuff like stirring paint unless it was just shaken at the store. When you start painting your wall, do both cutting and rolling at the same time. If your cut line is still wet, it almost totally disappears when you roll over it. I use 3/8 nap as well. Dip the roller in the paint tray that isnt overfilled and then roll it on the lined area of the tray a number of times to evenly "load" your roller. Once I have done that I also follow up at a pitched angle with the roller, to knock excess paint away from the ends so I dont get marks. Have your tray close to the wall so you dont have to step around much. Make a band on the wall and cover evenly, it should sound like tearing paper all the way up and down the band. Now for speed check the following edge for marks, dont repair the leading edge because you are going to overlap that in a minute when you paint on your next band. Once your band is done, reload your roller, dont waste time pressing the paint out of it and overloading your nice bare surface next to the band you just finished. Scoot a bit shift your tray a bit each time walking closer to the light at the other end. When you get a ways put your roller down and move the light to the end you finished or part way and finish the wall.
If you have to stop for any reason, pull a plastic shopping bag over your tray and leave your roller deep in it. cover your brush and container too. This helps keep the chunks and skins out in the first place.
Do that 4 times and you have a room, 8 times and you have a paint job. Use the light trick for ceilings too. Get an extension stick for you roller and you only have to climb the ladder to cut along the ceiling
A good paint job comes with practice and patience. If you cant have those get a pro to paint for you the years till you paint the walls again are worth not having to look at blemishes. When I go in someones house the first things I see are the painters and finish carpenters sloppiness and gaps.
Next time Ill teach you how to brush.
Edited 11/29/2004 11:27 pm ET by zendo
I go along with your recommendation 100%; what you might ad is the painting on knock down texture and the fact that there is no one- coat- paintjob....no matter what the paint sales people tell us. Also, I prefer to touch up and finish my jobs in the morning hours due to the better (and unforgiving) light. Painting red walls can bring different results with colored primers. A yellow undercoat for example makes the red glow bright and warm.
nice primer idea statement, try metallic gold under crimson.
Zendo,My comments are two months later (my computer was not working). Thank you for sharing the painting tips. How long does caulk hold up in expand/contact cracks or holes? What product do you suggest for filling in cracks or holes which are located in very well lit areas. In some of the areas I need to do, imperfections later in time would really show up. Mr. Eroom did some wiring and had to cut out major holes in the wall. He put in new wall board to repair the areas. What type of product do you suggest we use to patch? Also, there are "poke marks" running along in my living room ceiling. These are the old patched and painted nail holes that show clearly. The house has probably only been painted once since it was built in the early 70's. Is there a way to keep such repairs from showing ever again?
Im thrilled to be able to help...
First, I must say that I look at a house like I do a newer vehicle. The parts of a house if well built should last, and you shouldnt need much upkeep, but you have to expect some regular maintenance, or a service check.
Is there a way to keep such repairs from showing ever again?
This question is two fold . The first is that if the repair was finished then it wont show. The second is that no matter what the conditions, over time you can have a drywall screw or nail that lifts- do to the yearly moisture changes. They are fixable, but they do happen.
So for the areas that are showing, either a screw is backing out, or a patch was never sanded to the level of the wall surface. If a screw has lifted, pop the mud out of it and drive it in again, or drop a new one next to it on the stud, and remove that one. Fill the depression and sand flush... this will probably take 3-4 coats. Make sure the first coat dries well I usually like to wait overnight to be sure.
If it is a patch of mud that wasnt sanded enough, under paint it is tough, but sand it flush. If you need to build it up again thats ok too. If its a bear, haul out the palm or orbital sander. This is the type of thing that has been there all along, and doesnt just appear. This is where your critical eye will save you at prep time. (reread my #7 on this thread.)
All of the imperfections can be fixed. The poke holes with mud, and the new board with tape and mud. The new board areas are pretty advanced, but Ill explain on the next post.
Im wondering about your poke marks. Are they from an object or are they inline depressions? After a time of writing, I am thinking you are talking about the sheetrock pulling down on the screws causing a depression mark where the screws are.--- this is normal if it is what you mean.
As for the caulking, there are just as many variables. Dont buy cheap 'painters caulk', it usually sells for a dollar a tube, and its junk. For a long time I was using Dap Alex Plus, but recently have upgraded to Dap Dynaflex. Its a bit more money, but I noticed that the exterior application of Alex was not holding up to my liking. On interior I have never seen a problem, but if you think the conditions are extreme, including the size of the crack, I would use a better caulk. There are also products like Big Stretch, and Chemcaulk which are very flexible but probably overkill for paint. All of these products should last the life of the paint job. On trim you may need an occasional repair but Im thinking extreme.
For filling holes and taping especially well lit, I always use standard joint compound. Spackle products dry fast or whatever, but you can spot them in a second sometimes looking as bad as a piece of bubblegum on the wall. This especially annoys me in an art museum or gallery when they should be the ones setting an example.
You have a mix of different conditions so I would get 'all purpose' (just like flour) when you get to the top coat you can add a bit of water and thin the batch, this will fill in any marks like a dream. Also if the compound sits around for a while this helps. When working with the container keep the lid closed as well so it doesnt evaporate.
Ill write a new post about taping.
-zen
Taping,
A good resource for taping is the Drywall book from Myron Ferguson, Taunton Press. There is a DVD as well, my local library has both.
Buy standard paper tape. There is no way around it. Mesh and stick tape are junk and produce a horrible result. More people suffer from cracks that used mesh tape then you can imagine.
The other trick is understanding what you are trying to achieve. When taping you are trying to cover gaps and create the illusion of a single surface. In order to do this well you need to bed the tape and then cover it with as little a transition as possible. One great thing is the edge of sheetrock has a slight taper so that the paper embeds deep and is easily covered, the bad thing is that when you have a patch, you arent using much of that tapered edge, at least 3 of the sides will be flat.
You need a few tools... new blade in a utility knife, a six inch taping knife, and a 11 inch bevel trowel would be best (you probably could rent this, but it doesnt cost much). You can use the 11 inch for a mortar board and put your fresh mud on it. The 11 inch bevel float has a bent surface for finishing, and it creates a smooth transition from one panel to the next. There are 14 inch as well but I dont think its as necessary in residential.
Grab a scoop of mud with the 6 inch and scrape it onto the 11 inch blade face. Go to the seam and put a coat of mud on it in an even layer. The layer should be just thick enough to bed the tape in. For a patch rip a piece of tape long enough to cover the seam, start at one end and push the tape up against the mud. Go along the seam holding the tape taught and bed it in the mud lightly with the blade. Once the tape is hanging, go back to the starting point and push the mud out from under the tape. The pressure shouldnt move the tape but be hard enough to get out excess and form the tape to the wall. Once the tape is flat and smooth LEAVE IT. Move on, and dont come back til its dry. Paper is from a tree, it will expand and contract with the moisture so dont fuss with it.
When you come back knock off any big particles. If the tape went bad it wont be flush, cut that area out and try again. now you are ready to coat the tape. Put compound on the 11 inch again and coat the seam again it should be thin, just enough to cover the tape. Try to lay it on nice and smooth, this time the width of the mud should be about 8-9 inches across. When you achieve a fairly smooth surface, LEAVE IT. Let it dry. This coat will dry quicker than the last but over night doesnt hurt.
Once the 2nd coat is dry, sand down the high points. This is a light process, not exposing the tape, but clipping off excess bumps... smooth buried tape is the intention. Clean up the mess, wiping down the wall dry, or vacuuming. Now for the final coat. This time the mud is going to be put on the 11 inch, to use that as the application tool. Press the 11 inch on the wall and drag the mud 11 inches wide down the seam. This will marry the 2 boards. Again when you achieve a smooth thin layer leave it until its dry. Sand the dry layer with 100-120 grit paper, If you come across any divots or the like, this is when the thinned out skim coat comes into play. Now just sand smooth and clean well and you will be ready to prime.
-zen
zendo,I believe I have most of the tools, but, no, not the bevel trowel-I'll go look for one. After I use the 100-120 grit paper, the finished area will be smoother than the rest. Do you use a thicker roller to camouflage (I am thankful for the spell check) the smoothness? I have been procrastinating, but don't mind working hard if the results worth it, and lasting. Thanks again for helping.
I will get back to you tomorrow with a longer note, but sticking out in my head, if the bath isnt to big, save yourself some trouble and think about adding a layer of 1/2 inch rock right on that ceiling. That would be a heck of a lot more pleasant than trying to repair homesote. If you go that route remember you need moisture resistant rock.
Homesote is one of the hardest things to smooth up, and in a bath I wouldnt suggest skim coating it.
It would also level it and make the room look crisp again.
-zen
As for the sanding, once you prime and 2 finish coat the wall it should all blend great. I personally use a 3/8 nap on most applications.
zen,Thanks. I thought a 3/8" nap would be best for painting. Half inch rock is a great solution for the master bath ceiling. That would be a lot neater and faster. The ceiling isn't too big, but not small either. I appreciate all your help. Take your time. I won't be starting for a while. Besides the ceiling problem, the tile all over the walls of the master bath is another big problem that I hope to take care of soon. We would rather not have tile half way up the walls, but a smooth surface, except for some type of backsplash behind the sink counter. (I am just picturing my whole bath getting smaller and smaller with the addition of new walls.) Mr. Eroom was talking about the torch to remove the glue, but that is so messy and strong smelling.Whatever, we decide to do, there is a lot of work to do. Besides what I already mentioned, my spare bath has tile falling off the shower wall (old glue). Also, it is tiled halfway up, all around the room. It is a small room, so adding a thick wall isn't practical there. Luckily, the ceiling is covered with a neat and smooth surface (meaning no major repair). It is probably ordinary thin wood board.
An alternative to worrying about scraping the mastic off the wall is to demo the wall and start fresh with new drywall. This will probably save you a lot of time, and drywall is cheap so it won't cost that much in money. Plus the demo part can be fun, as long as you wear appropriate safety gear.
Hi, Aimless, You are absolutely right! What could be more fun than hacking the ceiling and walls down and tearing up the floor. I wish I could fling that old bluish-green tub out the door or window. Problem is it is too big and too heavy. But it would have possibilities as a nice water feature sunk in the garden somewhere.
Half inch rock is a great solution for the master bath
Remember that if you do this application that your screws need to be long enough to clear the material and go 1/2 -3/4 of an inch in to the structure. So you need a long sheetrock screw. If there is lighting or anything else there should be enough gap in the wire that it isnt a problem to drop the fixture, even if you strap over the homesote to level the ceiling.
getting smaller and smaller with the addition of new walls.)
If I were in this position, I would do a tear out back to the studs. The other thing that you may think of is to take off the tile and put up beadboard and molding... this is very popular right now. You could do this right over the glue mess. Panel walls can come in many styles and can be flat if you like.
Maybe take one of the rooms or jobs at a time... as for the spare bath, I wouldnt want to rework the tile, if you wanted to save it for now construction adhesive would work wonders on the occasional tile that came loose. If you wan to redo the bath, think of a tear out on this one as well.
Tear out jobs can be very expensive, but the return of value that redoing a bath or kitchen is huge. These are the areas that are most valued. I personally think the list should include stairways but not to many people value them like they did in the past. The stair used to be the most expensive and best work in the house, these days they just become an afterthought.
Ok I think I have covered everything, but if you have more and dont mind the wait, feel free to ask.
Regards, -zen
zendo,Considering the depth for existing lighting is a good point. But, luckily, we won't have to worry about that, as the existing hanging lamps will need to be replaced anyway. We really need to work on so many areas of the house that we are in limbo while deciding what to do. I really like the idea of covering up the glue mess (left by removing tile), rather than removing it and preparing the walls for paint. It would be such a pain. I like your idea of beadboard. I have admired the beadboard in magazine photos, but have not seen it used in person. I had been thinking that beadboard is a bit too casual, at least as shown in most of the photos I have seen. Do you know of any sites with photos of more elegant use of beadboard? I have only seen it painted white. Would it look good painted in a color?Fortunately, Mr. Eroom already installed backerboard in the tub area. That means all we have to do is choose the tile and grout and put that up.Right now the biggest problem we are dealing with is a leak in the master bath. It appears that there is a leak that seems to be coming from the pipe in the wall, rather than pipe beneath the sink. We cannot use the sink faucet for when we turn it on we find water leaking from the porch ceiling (that is, from the the area of the bathroom that overhangs the back porch). We are not sure the best way to attack this problem. We certainly are not crazy about tearing up the porch ceiling, or tearing apart the vanity, either.
zendo, Wow! You know your stuff! Thank you so much for carefully going into the details. I can almost see you in action, slapping the mud on, smoothing, etc. As for the poke marks, you guessed correctly. They are in a line, so they are obviously caused by the "sheetrock pulling down on the screws causing a depression mark where the screws are." Now I know what to do. One of the problem areas is on the kitchen ceiling--very noticeable. Looks like there was strip lighting above the table at one time and someone filled the holes up with the cheap, soft stuff. The product must have been too wet during application, for the repairs, are sticking out from the ceiling (as if the gravity pulled them down). I will have to dig them out and start over, as you have described. This should be the easiest of the jobs.Another MAJOR problem: the bathroom. This job is scary to me. The ceiling has loose screws all lined up in three long rows and the paint is all alligator-like in about eight inch patches around each poke mark. It looks like a hopeless mess. I tried working on a few areas scraping, but all of the paint doesn't come off. The scraping also takes forever. I scrape and have to keep scraping. I had tried to work on one section and after scraping as much as would come off, with no raised edges, I tried overfilling and smoothing it out, but I believe I used the wrong product. It is wallboard, or cardboard, as I call it, so I don't know if the torch would be a safe way to get all the paint off, like in my old house made of plaster. What is the best way to deal with this alligator problem?
Sorry for the wait.
As for the poke marks, you guessed correctly. They are in a line, so they are obviously caused by the "sheetrock pulling down on the screws causing a depression mark where the screws are." Now I know what to do.
I just want to point out that when you get up to the ceiling, this problem can be common and no big deal, a matter of remudding the depressed areas and sanding flush. But first check to make sure the rock doesnt move when you put pressure on it. I have seen this bad enough that the board goes up and down when you push on it, and if you manage to mud, the next moisture shift and you are back to square one. If that is a problem, the rock has to be rescrewed on the joist lines and old screws tightened or removed. Then finish.
One of the problem areas is on the kitchen ceiling--very noticeable. Looks like there was strip lighting above the table at one time and someone filled the holes up with the cheap, soft stuff. The product must have been too wet during application, for the repairs, are sticking out from the ceiling (as if the gravity pulled them down). I will have to dig them out and start over, as you have described. This should be the easiest of the jobs.
Any of the areas like this will be handled the same way, unless the hole is big and you need to fur in (block) and add rock patches like you did on the wall... you are on the right track.
I don't know if the torch would be a safe way to get all the paint off
Please stop using a torch all together. This is an age old method and very hazardous in many ways. You seem to have an older house, and past burning it down, there are a lot of toxins released and lead paint can be a huge concern. We have tons of methods to deal with all possibilities, if you have a specific problem just come and ask how to do it safely. Torches are great for pipes and Creme Breule, but use two torches there as well, because the mechanics would be fine, but kitchen gas is triple refined.
-zen
Zen,The delay is just fine with me. I just appreciate all the help you are giving me. Thanks for bringing up the movement of the sheet rock. Every once in a while, Mr. Eroom goes up in the attic and walks along the beams so he can reach the walls to drop lines down for cable, phone or electricity. Maybe that caused it, and walking up there in the future could cause the problem to come right back. Perhaps I had better test the ceiling; but, just in case, maybe the ceiling should be re-screwed.OK, we will stay away from the torch. (When we first moved in, I did tests for lead all over; thankfully, they all came up negative.)
I just did a red wall too, it took 3 coats for even coverage on a white wall. It is important to observe the drying time in-between otherwise you take up the previous application; every coat has to dry completely before to top it with a new coat. Also, coat means one vertical and one horizontal band, wet in wet.
Maler,
Didnt you read earlier that you are supposed to use tinted primer? lol
Actually, Ive been there... wanted a burgundy, got a Barney... but, added medium grey undercoat/prime... finish color match 2 coats.
Hey Maler, Lets give these birds a workout.
From a color theory perspective... do you have a particular brand you find gives you your desired result. (not including the 'client shock' that once you see the color on the wall its a lot more intense compared to the chip)
Other issues... I hate Sherwin, its loose and slops, and it stinks to high heaven. Love the smell of Super Spec Ben Moore for the ceiling.
Consumer Reports covered interior and exterior paint and stain this summer. I was blown away to see that SW and Ben were like 17 on the list for overall. Behr got the highest rating for interior, Valspar, and California also did very well. If you didnt see it check it out. I can get the months if you are interested. It was on issues of durability, lightfastness, washability, mildew and the like. 1-12 year rated.
Thank you for your thoughts, you have some good points.
1. I learned over the years<Europe and USA> that there is no perfect match and there is no perfect transfer from color fan chip to wall sample, no matter which brand. The client shock has to be dealt with in all eternity. Object to be painted and client have to be primed for the desired result.
2. I think Sherwin uses ammonium in some of their products and I have a hard time to deal with it, BM has good products, but overall you will go with a brand where you get the quality and last not least the service. If I go to the paint store at 7:00 a.m. and have to wait in line fro 35 minutes for a order pick up I might have second thoughts about the brands quality. If I get superior service in a store with a not- so- well -known- brand I might just get used to it. Most major brands have an equal level of quality and if you ad the good workmanship you will do just fine. It is all a very personal issue.
3. I did a repaint after 17 years with a Valspar(one of the largest paint manufacturers) product (which I almost never use) and it was mostly touch up work with no major deficiencies. I use Kelly Moore and Diamond Vogel due to the service and availability I expect and due to the quality of the products. Upon request of architect or customer I used BM, Behr, Sherwin, Valspar and others.
4.I know a fellow painter who loves Home Depot (Behr) because they have the nicest bathrooms....like I said , it is a very personal issue!
Hi, it's Samara, editorial assistant at Inspired House.
I know the original question was posted over a month ago, but for what it's worth, I brought this thread up to one of our editors, Deb Silber. She laughed because she painted her own daughter's room red a few months ago--and quickly said that she learned the secret with any deep color is applying many more coats than you'd think you'd need.
Incidentally, we are planning an article on paint, and it would be very helpful if we got some feedback from readers on what information you're most interested in. Types of paint? Application? Choosing colors? I invite you to send any suggestions to me at [email protected]. Thanks!
I forgot to tell you, I'read the reports. I've participated and done paint quality testing in Germany. The lab testing is no substitute for real life conditions - in my opinion. Lab conditions are mosty constant or only changing from wet to dry. Durability tests are vague and so are UV-resistance tests because they cannot simulate the fast and daily changing weather conditions. Colorado mountain weather cannot be easily simulated in a lab. If you read the Sikkens stain specifications you would never be able to use the stain here in the mountain area. Nevertheless, I had terrific results with it on log homes and decks.
Interior testing is easier. Behr has a good quality product but like I said before you need the service with it and Home Depot is not my preferred place of doing business.
We did a test series with one and the same product in five differently labeled cans...guess what?
You guessed it!
I also wanted to give you the following link for color games/tryouts, it is the best I've seen so far and I use it quite often...enjoy!
http://primeshop.com/html/216colrs.htm
Thanks for the link, sorry I havent gotten back, my computer is on the blink and Im at a remote location.
I used to buy Behr, but I've been pretty unhappy with it and switched to a local brand, Kwal-Howell. Not only is the service better, but the paint goes on more easily, I can get one coat coverage with the lighter colors, and the adhesion is better. I was having trouble with the Behr paint coming off, but no problems with K-H. Even on the outside of my house, which was done by 'pros', the Behr is peeling off after 2 years and the Sherwin Williams is staying put (Behr for trim because I didn't like the S-W colors).
You may also be interested in the consumer reports issues (see earlier in thread.) I did learn from that that the companies switch the formulas every few years or to improve the results.
I heard a ton of people say that Behr was bad from the past but they got best interior paint in the CR review this summer. Although Im sure a ton of them were fine paints.
I personally have only used their deck and exterior oil based semi, natural, and solid stains.
I get a lot of requests for BMoore, people are willing to pay for it, and I get pretty good service and discount there, I also work alot with ICI Dulux- owners of Glidden for my equipment because of the discount and lack of retail consumers around.
Its interesting to see the different companies around the country... I dont have, havent heard of the 2 you usually do business with.
Oh as for the wife's paint job, it sounds so familiar its sick.
I have always avoided Sikkens because I didnt like the orange plastic look that it imparts on full communities up here. I also used to get a lot of exterior log home type jobs. Not anymore since I have ditched that contractor. Ill have to find new uses for the .5 gal a minute sprayer I bought this past spring. Ive done a few interiors with it, but what a cloud.
I know and you are right.
Not using a primer in this case had two reasons.
1. It was my own place and my wife made me do the work by threatening she would hire somebody else or worse...she would paint. I had the primer in my workshop(not at home) and did not want to go out because we had 11 degrees weather. It was my day off!
2. The wall had a semigloss white color finish, which gives you a nice translucent, deep- color- look with a deep red satin paint.
The first issue mainly directed my action.
Couple of things I did when I painted my bathroom red (St. Louis Cardinal Red) Make sure they pigment your primer. Cut in your corners for one wall at a time and, before the paint dries, paint that one wall then move to the next wall. If you try to cut in all your corners first (to save time) you WILL get paint lines. It took me six coats (including the primer coat) to get the color I wanted. As for the brand of paint: My $.02 worth is I used Glidden Evermore semi-gloss and it worked fine. I've used Behr in the past and, well, that was the past. Enough said!
6 COATS????? I think along about coat 4, I would have upgraded from the Glidden.
But I bet your bathroom looks really cool.
Yeah, I know....It's one of those "perfectionist" things....Can be quite bothersome at times!