So just generically speaking, because I really doubt theres any hard and fast rule, when it comes to the decision to replace a vehicle, what factors do you weigh? A recent and somewhat frustrating repair bill got me thinking about this. I think it was more frustrating than anything. I’m not buying new yet. Is it maintenance costs, tax write offs, warranty expiration . . . ?
“Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think — there are no little things” – Bruce Barton
Replies
Ive been doing quite a bit of that here and they already think Im nuts to do it .
You have to figgure your costs . All of them.
Your cost of a new rig lets say. Cost of gas this summer from 3.00 to 3.50. Miles traveled per year[last year ]
New insurance policy for the expected price of truck.
Depreceation for each consectutive year.
Projected time you will be dont with it , miles on it , and then what it will be worth at that time.
Payments and interrest if thats the way you go for the price of truck. If you bought the truck out right you would have lost the interrest on the money.
Will the new truck make more money? If it will then its fair to put it on line .
When you get done you should know per mile what it costs to own that truck which will tell you if its a good business decision.
Tim
Buy NEW NOW and often.....
Oh nevermind, I just remembered I have interest in a new and preowned auto dealerships
I'm not self employeed and have a relativetly new truck.
My rule has been.
If I can maintain a vehicle for around 75% of the monthly cost of a new one I'll keep it and repair it.
at the point a truck/car crosses that line it's probably pretty well shot to hell anyway.
Wow at 75% on say a $500 monthly note that's $375/month to maintain a rig. If your talking 375 each month to keep a beater around that's just not good business.
You could spent $5000 and go through and do a lot to an older rig, rebuild a motor and tranny. New brakes, tires battery, starter ect. Then you still have an old truck and for some that is fine but other's want that new rig. Plus it takes some time to do all that work. In the long run your better financially to keep an old rig running as long as you can, but at some point you may need to upgrade.
CAG & All
As always, multiple thoughts. The benefit to many of the forum format is being able to look at some issue from twenty different angles and sift through those things that fit your own scenario. I like that.
I really like the spreadsheet in concept. Thats someone who took a step towards trying to put real business numbers on a sometimes emotional subject.
Frankly, I love my truck. It hasn't, over the life, been a hassle. Its the periodic things where you unexpectedly have to change your gameplan for a day because it needs to be up on a lift. And life being what it is, you might have gotten on the lift over a $300 issue. But me anyway, thats when I say well heck, as long as I'm going to have to have the darn thing in there anyway, check out this squeak that developed, and I know I need a new fuel filter, oh an can you check the . . . so you cover all the incidentals and periodic maintenance and 2000 bucks later you end up just muttering about what you already knew which is the cost of keeping a vehicle running.
And its a diesel, so everything is a little bigger, a little more expensive.
And thats where I start looking at new. But the feeling passes when I put on paper real costs and realise that I'm still farther ahead to hang on to it.
I have never regretted signing up for the aftermarket "extended warranty" programs that kick in to cover what the manufacturer doesnt. On this truck, I think that cost about $1500 and even though they cuss a little in the process, they've paid at least $4K so far, so thats turned out to be a good initial investment."Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
Their are many views on this one. Mine is next I guess.
A new truck after about 20% down cost me around $400 a month. I typically pay them off in 3-4 years as I over pay when I can. I like new trucks for the following reasons:
1) I work for the public and probably get 8-10 jobs a year because the like working with someone with good looking equipment. And say so. People relate success to appearance. And most clients want to be aligned with someone that is successful.
2) I don't worry about the trucks being a maintenance issue. There is always a couple of warranty issues but once that is out of the way oil changes and general quick maintenance are it. I can plan time for those repairs and don't have to worry about it having to be done when I am slammed trying to get work done. We put 4-6k a year on a truck I can usually pay them off before they even need tires or a battery.
3) In my opinion any time your work truck is in the shop you are losing money. Not just because of the bill but because of lost time screwing with it. It takes an hour to check the truck in at a repair shop and at least one to pick it up. Somewhere during the day you will get the call where you have to decide what you need to fix it. Another possible time waster.
4) I am a planner by nature. I don't like disruptions in my day. I realize some don't mind this at all but I do. So I would rather pay the money than deal with the headaches.
5) When the truck is paid for I know how it has been taken care of and any issues with it so I can accurately figure out whether it is time to trade it or keep it. I typically keep them quite a while and just maintain the appearance.
6) My staff consider it a benefit to have good vehicals to work out of and say so.
7) It takes one day (we bill at 50 an hour) to make the payment. As long as that truck is working steady this is no problem so again I would rather have new than old. Frankly if you can't afford that you are in the wrong business in my mind. If you choose not to then that is another matter.
I take milage and fuel cost into consideration. I never take tax issues into consideration unless the accountant tells me that buying a certain type of vehical is better over another. Not that this isn't important but I figure the tax benefits a bonus. I work at making money and the accountant works at saving it for me. If I think a truck is going to start being a head ache then out the door it goes. But frankly I figure on getting 10 years out of them before that point. DanT
It takes an hour to check the truck in at a repair shop and at least one to pick it up.
Thank you. One of the best reasons for DIY!
About the only DIY at home job that takes longer than those 2 hours (after you have done the first few on the learning curve) is total engine or tranny rebuild.
Of course, I keep (at least) 2 trucks ready at all times, so never am without.
The time to replace is when a newer used vehicle is lower cost than the most recent repair - typically pay only $500 for used truck with under 100K mi, but they always have some $2000 shop bill that only takes $200 and a few hours to fix DIY.
"It takes an hour to check the truck in at a repair shop and at least one to pick it up.""Thank you. One of the best reasons for DIY"For maintenance work, maybe. What about a PITA intermittent problem on a fuel injected motor? Is this a DIY project? I suspect that someone using their vehicle for business would be ahead by having someone else do this type of job so they could do theirs and make some money. Granted, dealers charge an arm, a leg and an occasional internal organ, but if they make sure their tech are well trained, troubleshooting will take a lot less time than a DIY'er.For the record, I like injection WAY more than carbs.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfish...never mind the hard stuff like fuel injectors....I have an intermittan turn signal problem and it would take me all day to figure out what to take apart. I'd have parts lying all over that I didn't know what to do with when I sent it to the dealer to get it working again.
One hour....hahahahahahah. I can't even find my tools in one hour and they are all in my tool box!
blue
Actually, a fuel injection problem is fairly easy if you know the system, and they're all pretty similar since there's no reason to reinvent the wheel in this case. Many of the diagnostic codes are the same for all makes, too. What is the signal doing- not flashing? Bad flasher relay. Is it too fast? Bulb may be burned out or voltage not getting to one of them. Any fairly recent accidents? Maybe a wire is chafing and shorting if the fuse blows repeatedly. Old vehicle? Could be a corroded bulb socket or connector in the harness. You can get a diagram from a dealer if you ask for it. They usually have locations for connectors. Could also be a bad directional switch.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I think it's the switch or the flasher but I don't know where either is located!!!
It would take me hours to do this. There aint no way I'd take apart the area where the switch is, if I knew where it was.
The four ways work. If I vigorously work the turn signal indicator, they will work for a second or two.
I hate maintenace. I'm a prime candidate for one year leases.
blue
The switch is on the column, the flasher relay is usually on the fuse panel. If it's a newer vehicle, it's usually near the panel or under the dash over the driver's feet. What kind of vehicle is it?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
>>>>The four ways work. If I vigorously work the turn signal indicator, they will work for a second or two.<<<<By vigorously working the turn signal indicator... Do you mean if you push it up the turn signal lights, pull it down, it turns off, push it up, it lights, pull it down it turns off... etc...Or do you mean that you push it up, then wiggle it while it is still pushed up ?If the first is the case, then just replace the tin can thingy called a relay, down at your fuse box. If replacing the can doesn't do the job, replace all the turn signal bulbs. If that doesn't work, then you have my permission to take it to a mechanic. LOLIf the second is the case, then given your earlier description of what would probably happen there... you probably need to take it to a mechanic beause it is likely the switch.
We spend zillions on smart bombs.....how about spending zillions on creating smart kids?
~jjwalters
Highfish, its a 99 dodge ram. The flasher unit is in the fue panel.
Luka, when I say vigorishly, I mean I was wiggling that stick like it needed a good beating. The only way I know how to make things work again is to bang them with the hammer. You'd be surprised at how many times this works.
Anyways, I tested the hour theory today. It took me almost an hour to look through the yellow pages and decide which way to drive to find a parts store and get back. I'm sure it was more than an hour before I got back...but I didn't time it.
Then, I started my maintenance chores. I had two simple jobs.....a u-joint at the front of the axle on the drive shaft for the 4WD. After studying my Dodge repair manual and staring at the broken joint, I dragged out a handful of tools and went to work.
I'lll make this short. After about another hour of messing around, I managed to wire the thing back up with a coat hanger. The 4WD still wont work but I have the Ujoint for it in my truck. The flashers still wont work, but I know where the part is. The part store gave me the wrong replacement and it will only take my about 45 minutes to get there and back, now that I know where it is. I'll also change the part in the parking lot and if it doesn't work, I'll go right back in and get a new switch....if they can tell me how to change it. That should only take me about 5 hours, if it's possible for someone like me to change it. I doubt that I could do it. I haven't studied the repair manual yet for something that complicated.
I did get grease under my fingernails and I find that disgusting.
blue
<I'lll make this short. After about another hour of messing around, I managed to wire the thing back up with a coat hanger. The 4WD still wont work but I have the Ujoint for it in my truck>LOL!I thinks you need to stick w/carpentry, you sound like metrying to "fix" something.If it ain't broke,keep fixin on it till it is!!
LOL I think we finally see eye to eye on something. I don't f%ck around under the hood much either. I do basic mantainence and that's about it. I've been studying the service manual from my telehandler for two months now to gear up for the 1000 hour service I have to do to it..... in about a month. I'm still not sure I'll be ready for it.
Everytime I get ambitious and try to do a "one hour repair" to something with an engine it ends up costing me a day's worth of time and three days worth of aggravation... and those are the successful endeavors.View Image
I did get grease under my fingernails and I find that disgusting
LOL also. Yep you better take it into the shop.
DW thinks I'm 2nd happiest when I'm filthy dirty with grease.
One hour....hahahahahahah. I can't even find my tools in one hour and they are all in my tool box!
I have to confess somthing too.
Ive been doing the shop maintenence thing lately. I have four vehicles , 3 four wheelers , a camper , a boat , equipment , etc. It came to me that I own a h^ll of a lot of things with motors on them including power tools big and small.
I thought I cant affford not to do it .
So far that has proven to be a misconception.
Since I do have four , a ride to work is not a problem to drop one at the shop and their bill is always lower so far than my loss. I could even hire a wrecker and come out ahead.
One night I was comming home from Springdale Ar after doing a job and the trailer and truck were loaded. I had a blow out on a nearly a new tire.[I wasnt carrying a spare] Unheard of to me in person. I couldnt leave the trailer for whats on it so it wasnt an option. I called road service from my cell phone and they were there in 15 minutes with a tire the size I told them. In a total of 30 minutes I was paying him . I paid 10.00 too much for the tire and 50.00 road service minimum call at 10.00 pm @ night. Over all cost for me to have saved was 60.00. I was very happy.
Tim
Fifty dollars for road service?!!!
Maybe you ought to call Cingular. I get my road service for $5 per month. As long as I have my phone, the car I'm riding in is covered.
blue
Cool !
hahaha
Tim
One hour....hahahahahahah. I can't even find my tools in one hour and they are all in my tool box!
Throw a nice Twostroke engine from just about any year Motocross bike up on my bench, or maybe a Verticle twin or even a V-Twin and watch my wrenches fly ( one exception, No Maico engines. All those shims in the gearbox and primary can drive a perfectly sane man nuts. And me, hardly perfectly sane to start with.).
My truck? Forget it. I'll spend an hour scratching my head trying to figure out where to start, two taking it apart, two fixing it and three trying to figure out why I have parts left over.
Ok, I am not sure why you are thanking me since we are different sides of the matter but just to be polite......your welcome! DanT
$500 for a used truck w/under 100k miles...I'll take 2 please.
$500 for a used truck w/under 100k miles...I'll take 2 please.
Yep, I buy everyone like that I see offered. Even minivans. Told a friend a few years ago if I could find a couple of those a day I'd start a business, but only come across that type deal 2-3 times a year, since the benign high cost to repair early failures really do not happen that often to later model vehicles.
Since I treat auto repair as recreation, even bought a $500 Voyager a couple of months ago, replaceced the head gaskets in about 2 hours and $50 in parts (ground the valves too), just sold it yesterday for $1200. Not bad for 2 hrs work and 1/2 hr sale effort, beats the heck out of jogging for exercise.
Highest price I ever paid for a car was also a Best deal - DWs Chrysler - got it at a garage sale, genuing 'grandma's car". Actual 14, 000 mi on an '84 in 2001 or so. Nobody wanted to pay $3000 for a 17 year old car. DW has put a trouble free* 40,000 miles on it since. * except for leaking Map sensor hose that made it flunk an emmisions test.
Having bought only used vehicles for work I have to admit I may be biased but I believe I've made out pretty well. Of course there were the times where buying a used truck was the only option.
Paying a car/truck payment frustrates the crap outta me. I maintain my vehicles very well and I get everything fixed. Also I paint my vehicles so they look pretty good. Leaky fluids are a definite no no.
My trucks used to look junky and I definitely think business suffered for it but now I a have a well maintained fleet of 2 older dodges 97 and 98.
I pay no interest at all on my vehicles which I know has put thousands of dollars in my pocket. I buy new tires but you guys with new have to buy new tires. I'm sure My mechanic gets some more money from me thn he does from guys with new but I'm pretty sure my repair bill last year for both trucks was under 5K including tires and oil changes.
2 truck payments at 400 a month totals pretty close to 9600.00. Additionally the insurance requirements with respect to collision are substantially less than wht new truck buyers are facing.
The cost of my two trucks (purchase price) was a little over $7000.00.
Edited 4/20/2006 6:58 am ET by TMO
I personally like to buy a truck that is two or three years old with about 30-40 thousand on it. Someone else takes the hit for depreciation and I don't feel that in this many miles anyone could have done any major damage as long as they did the regular maintenance. I always buy from private sellers as well, there are lots of retired guys out there that have a travel trailer that they pull a few weeks a year... with their forty thousand dollar diesel, that they will sell for 25-29 thousand... so they can have the new model. I wouldn't buy anything like this from a dealer though because it's usually a lease return. My buddy leases a new truck every two years and does absolutely no maintenance... not even oil changes... I sure don't want his old truck!
"
I personally like to buy a truck that is two or three years old with about 30-40 thousand on it."
Well so would I. In my area a truck like that would be gone in a second. Used late model work trucks around here have 60-100k on them, are a little beat up and cost 12-18k. I can buy a new one for 26.
But if I could find a late model that was closed to what I needed as you described I would buy used too. They are just not available unless I want to spend each weekend calling and driving to look at trucks. So I simply choose to buy it and work it. Simple choice of how one wants to use his or her time. DanT
we disagree and agree at the same time.
I say it all depends on yer particular situation.
me, if it ain't made outta wood ... or is part of a motorcycle ... I can't fix it.
The reason for that ... m,y best friend ... is a great autobody/mechanic. I haven't changed oil in the car/truck since HS ... and I haven't paid to have it changed either.
My buddy don't work on bikes ... so I've learned that part on my own.
Years ago ... Dad said ... It cost $100K per year to run a used vehicle.
I'll bump that estimate up to $1,200/yr ... but damned if he hasn't been right.
It's either $1,200 at a pop ... or $120 ten times ... but he's been right on so far.
and for me ... that $1,200.00 plus the small buy in has far out weighed the payments on a new truck. I realise I'm spoiled with my situation. Having a FT second vehicle is necessary too. I do need the Jeep with the fold down seats every now and then to keep the cash flow flowing.
My plan wouldn't work if I had to rely on stealing the wife's car every now and then.
I think I'd get the same results if I went to a one work vehicle system ... pay more monthly ... pay less insurance ... and just drive one work truck.
But ... for me ... I like choosing between the full size one ton van, and the Jeep.
I never touch the wife's car.
my repair costs wouyld be way higher if I had to rely on someone other than my best friend. Probably higer ... and less reliable.
it's "Uncle Brian's" fault I don't know how to change my own oil!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
RW,
Attached is a little spreadsheet I made when I was getting ready to buy a new truck. It doesn't cover all the bases, but at least gives an idea of the true differences in cost.
Mike
Thats not a complete spread sheet in the cost of owning a truck but its a start .
Tim
Mike-
We need to add the depreciation in there!
Most guys here own or operate a business. Most trucks can be a 179 deduction and you can depreciate 50% the first year. That is a major nut.If it's an up in the air decision you should have the cash on hand and then consult your accountant toward the end of the year to see if it makes sense to go it in this year or next.New trucks are so much better than older units and with the rebates offered it's very hard to beat a new truck deal.Stu
RW,
I'm with the side of guys who buy new and often.
We've been in business for about less than two years, and the oldest truck associated with the company is mine which is a 2003 (only 27k miles on it though). There's a '04 F250 and '05 F150 as well.
Some of our subs look at us like we have a lot of cash because we have new/clean vehicles. It's no doubt that we do pay a little extra in payments but the maintenance has been absolutely nothing that's not routine.
I'm sure our customers appreciate that our trucks don't leak various fluids on their driveway, and the overall appearance is professional.
The biggest reason for me is the downtime. If a man who is billed out at $50-65/hr spends a morning paying a mechanic $65-90/hr. to work on the truck, even a relatively minor problem gets expensive rather quickly. And of course the schedule suffers so the rest of the company is effected.
The two payments we have (both the Fords) total about $830/month. That's expensive but I would much rather spend that than $400/month (or more) in repairs and not know if the truck will be there when you really need it.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I'm with the side of guys who buy new and often.
It's no doubt that we do pay a little extra in payments but the maintenance has been absolutely nothing that's not routine.
I'm sure our customers appreciate that our trucks don't leak various fluids on their driveway, and the overall appearance is professional.
The biggest reason for me is the downtime. If a man who is billed out at $50-65/hr spends a morning paying a mechanic $65-90/hr. to work on the truck, even a relatively minor problem gets expensive rather quickly. And of course the schedule suffers so the rest of the company is effected.
The two payments we have (both the Fords) total about $830/month. That's expensive but I would much rather spend that than $400/month (or more) in repairs and not know if the truck will be there when you really need it.
John, all those factors favor "new". But until we actually turn our gut feelings into quantitative estimates, most of us don't really know for sure if we're saving coin by buying new or not. I'd be fascinated (OK, maybe not fascinated, but really interested) to see your detailed value estimates on new vs. old.
As far as personal transportation goes, I laugh privately when someone tells me they are selling their 5 year old vehicle because "maintenance is getting too high". Nine times out of ten, what they really mean is "I want to drive a new vehicle and would like to make myself feel better about that choice by pretending it's a wise economic decision".
Free,I do not have detailed records for what it costs to maintain an aging truck since we have been running new trucks since our business started.Maybe some of the guys here who have older trucks and don't do the major work themselves can contribute that data?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hey Jon, I checked out your web site and when I clicked bathrooms I got porches. I clicked some other areas that didn't seem to match either. Maybe you knew this but if not thought I would mention it so you can fix it if need be. DanT
Dan,Thanks for the heads up.It seems to be fine now, but we've had issues in the past with the problem you mention. I'll keep an eye on it.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Still does it for me. Maybe the browse I am on. My son taught me that so if you ask for clarification I am in trouble. DanT
I buy low mileage, salvage title, work vans. I bought this "storm damage" van with just 9,000 miles on it. The original owner only drove it for 5 months before it was "totaled" by the insurance co.
It has a few dings & dents, but I would have dinged & dented it myself anyway. I saved 20K by not buying it new. Three years and 55,000 miles later, I'm still very pleased with the van and this approach to purchasing work rigs.
This one is a 2002 VW Eurovan 3/4 ton.
my suggestion, get a nice ride and a matching trailer. my customers love seeing a nice rig in there driveway. they know i care about my work, and that i like what i do. that alone gets me jobs. i also get alot of attention at the supply stores. maintaining a truck is cheaper but frusterating when it does break down not too mention customers dont like it when you cant show up to work because you cant maintain your gear. the nice thing with a trailer is at the end of the day its cheap to own and operate i can dissconect and i have a nice ride to go out in. i dont need a second vehicle. and a trailer can be pulled by a nice truck or a fixer upper
i have an associate that operates under the cheaper is better. his dies and he fixes it himself to save money. i cant count the down time hes had. but hes ok with that.
i had an uncle that was on the rule of drive a junker till it dies, sell it for junk and get another junker. its easy to keep a $1000 junker on standby.
oh i have another friend that bought a 75 gmc for $750. we call it the farm truck. we thought it would never last long. its been 6+ years and the truck has over half a million km.
i think its really a double ended sword. i have to work my butt off to have a nice ride. my friend cant afford a nice truck because he cant get enough work done because of breakdowns. at the end of the day its really how you work and want to live.
Tmaxxx
Urban Workshop Ltd
Vancouver B.C.
cheers. Ill buy.
i had an uncle that was on the rule of drive a junker till it dies, sell it for junk and get another junker. its easy to keep a $1000 junker on standby
Do we have the same Uncle?>
Near the beginning of this thread, someone mentioned fuel Mileage. If you need a truck this means nothing to you, but if you could use a van, the Sprinter van says it gets 25MPG at 50% load. If you are like me and get around 10-11 MPG, this thing could save you $250-300 per month, that is more than half your payment.
Here's a diesel F250 crew cab with just 13,000 miles on it for under 20K (asking price...they'll take even less for it).
http://www.samsriverside.com/pickupresult.asp?sku=472676
In the UK, leasing is a popular option. Pay so much a month, when the term is up, give it back and get another one. I'm leasing a Mercedes. Maybe I could save some money by running an old van, but why bother? Lots of things I could do to save money, some of them I do, but driving an old van and dealing with the maintenance issues isn't one of them
John
RW,
My last two work trucks were new. I don't use my truck for work anymore but if I did? A new one every six years. It's worth it on so may levels, COmpany image, reliability, warranty coverage, and that new car smell.
I don't know how heavily you use your truck so I don't know if you need a big truck or not.
I just purchased a 2006 1/2 ton Silverado, V-6, Auto, Air, Cruise, Custom Cloth seats, Locking rear axle, tinted glass, AM-FM-CD and heavy duty suspension.
Sticker was $19, 750. I paid $15,100 Plus tax out the door.
you could add a small V-8 for about $500 more.
It replaced a Ford Ranger. I'm a Ford guy but my ranger was a problem. It was in the shop for other than routine maint. once a month for three months. Thats the threshold for me. It was two years old but it had to go.