I’m wanting to hook up the circuit that all of my smoke detectors are on to the bathroom circuit. I’d like to be able to cut the power to the smokeys and this way the bathroom lights not working will reming me not to leave them off (somebody here offered this approach). Instead of running a wire to the bathroom and hooking into an outlet there, I’m wondering about simply wiring into the same breaker that the bathroom circuit is on: to wires into the same breaker-screw. A guy who is an electrician told me that this was fine and that people do it all the time, but in my own main panel that everything in my house is connected to I see that it has NOT been done at all and I do not recall ever seeing this. Anyone here know if this is perfectly ok or not???
Thanks!
A~
Replies
Just because it's done all the time DOES NOT make it the right thing to do! If you friends all went and jumped off a...
OK, OK, enough scolding! :)
It's very easy to move the existing wire to a small terminal block - one hot wire in, two hot wires out. Very clean and organized, if you want to do that inside your breaker panel. Otherwise you could do the same in a small junction box just off the panel, say in an attic or a closet where it won't be seen.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
I'm not an electrican - so take this for what it's worth. I think what you're talking about is called double tapping. Very much illegal in my state (PA).
Better than nothing but won't pass inspection for occupancy, or sale.
If you just want better safety for now, better than nothing.
no...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
NB,
If the circuit breaker(s) in your panel are listed for connection to 2 wires then connecting 2 in the panel is OK. I know some SquareD breakers are listed this way. Most breakers are not.
Smoke alarms save lives. I'm not going to comment on the suggestion that smoke alarms be wired so that 120V power to them can be switched. Where I am smokes in new construction must be interconnected and have battery backup (and since they are in bedrooms, they must be on an AFCI protected circuit). If power was switched off to smoke alarms in that configuration, they would all chirp incessantly on battery power.
Regards,
Jim x 3
yep, some breakers are made for 2 wires, own house has all QO breakers, 2 wires per code, listred right on the breaker. (reaker has saddle clamp vs. just a screw and a hole)
Otherwise one red wire nut tying pigtail to breaker and 2 circuits is OK and easy way to go.
I could not find where anyone said they wanted them switched. They would have to be on some breaker anyway. I am not really sure why he would want to disable them temporarialy but the idea of making something else off to remind sounds good. My hardwired ones are not battery backup but do chirp for a limited time when unpowered. Will replace them soon with backup style.
BobFor those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Another option might be to put a dust cover over the smoke that is giving you the nuisance alarms. The BRK detectors I have came with red dust covers for use during the construction phase. They look and fit like a shower cap. The Kiddes didn't come similarily equipped IIRC.
In a separate thread I addressed the idea of the desire for switchable smokers. I have a situation where in they will all be hardwired in together but that one MUST be in the kitchen (one on each floor -- each flr of this addition is one medium sized room -- one floor is a kitchen .. therefore ...). Even my own inspector, when he realized the situation, said "People I know with smokeys in the kitchen get a LOT of false alarm situations!" So .. I AM interested in some way of calming this potential situation down. He told me that when he is doing work that he knows will trip the alarm he climbs up and unhooks the wires as if he were replacing it AND pops the battery out; that this is how he completely 'deadens' the alarm if he must. I just thought that being able to switch the alarm off and pop the battery would be easier than climbing up and twisting it off and unhooking the wires and then later having to reverse the process. I DO like the idea of using the dust cover
You have to understand that this is an unusual situation. Its a forty foot high 'tube' .. each floor one room .. joined by open stairways. If the whole thing goes off with four 85 dbl alarms at once I'm afraid it's gonna be murder! Also, if there are frequent false alarms in this situation it's going to be a nightmare. So .. yes .. I'm looking for ways, even before the structure is actually occupied, to see to it that there is some relief from what I'm hearing it may turn into.
At to my original question. Thanks for the feedback on that. I had wondered if the sub-panel box itself would be ok to pigtail-off in. I think that sounds like the answer. I, too, have noticed that some breakers have that saddle clamp that is CLEARLY designed to handle two wires .. one on each side. Don't believe that the ones that I currently have in do, however.
Thanks.
A~
Double tap?
Big no.
It is a big no no. I had to put my smokey on a light circuit to make the inspector happy. All I did was off the last smoke detector pulled power off one wire and hooked it into the light. I was also told that you can pig tail off instead of putting two wires off the breaker another big no no.
wait a minute ... what???
I'm getting opposite mssg's here from different folks.
Some of you are saying go ahead and that there are some breakers even clearly MADE for it .. which is true .. I've seen them and had them shown to me. Others are saying it's a 'big no'. Others are saying don't tap in directly but do go right ahead and pigtail OFF of the breaker and plastic twist-cap into two other lines.
And silvertip, are you saying that you CAN or that you were told that you you could but you canNOT pig tail off of the breaker????
heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelp!
:
it's a regional thing dictated by the AHJ...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
but it's still no...
fire is all by it's lonesome...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
If the breaker is listed for 2 wires you can use two wires.
There is also nothing wrong with pig tailing 2 wires into one.
I can't think of anything with much more mythology than this area of the NEC, even by people who should know better.
(especially home inspectors)BTW the thing that is illegal is tapping into the bathroom receptacle circuit.
Edited 8/17/2009 1:57 pm ET by gfretwell
Thanks -
But why would you say that legging off of a bathroom receptacle would be illegal? People run lines off of existing receptacles routinely.
it's what the tap feeds....
or if it exceeds load/device ratings...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
The NEC permits the follow circuit(s) for bathrooms(s).You can run one 20 amp circuit that can supply the receptacles and only the receptacles in one or more bathrooms.You can run a 20 amp circuit to one bathroom and not only have the receptacles, but lights and fans in that one bathroom.There are other circuits that similar; kitchen small appliance circuits, furnace circuits, 20 amp washer, and dedicated appliance cicuits. They are all limited on what can be connected to them..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Others can advise if this meets code...In the house I have on Cape Cod, the previous HO had wired a pull string to the kitchen SD that allowed only the SD in the kitchen to be disconnected. Not elegant, but effective.I have since upgraded the other three smoke detectors to battery backup, and they are all 4 interconnected. There is one just barely outside the kitchen as well.Now when someone pulls the string because the toast has burnt, and 4 alarms are all going off, the other 3 can be silenced, and the kitchen no longer glows "on" with a pull of the cord. Worked fine until whoever turned it off forgot to put it back on. I discovered a while later it had been off for probably a couple of months after burning more toast and there was no alarm, so well appreciate the pitfalls.As a thought, if legal, maybe a better solution is a light switch with a red light that glows only when the switch is set to off as a reminder to flip it back on after the smoke has passed, and that won't interfere with the other SDs in the chain.G
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
this sounds nice in theory but the fact is that if they are all tied together I don't see how disconnecting the ktchen sd would quiet the others ... when one goes offline there is 'chirping' to warn you. Also, the battery backup would take over, unless you are talking hardwire sm's without battery backup which, as I've recently found out, is illegal in most jurisdictions.
As to putting the sd's on a separate switch of there own .. ALSO, unfortunately, illegal. This was going to be my own solution to the problem of not wanting to be bullied by sm's but, even though they can be wired into a breaker which works precisely as a switch, running them through a switch is a no no. Go figure.
I don't know how its wired: when I rewired the new ones I just matched the old ones without really knowing whether its the black , the red or some other wire on the kitchen SD that is on the pull chain switch and haven't looked. But whichever one it is, when the SD goes off in the kitchen, the others follow suit. When I pull the chain, they all stop. There is no beeping on the other battery backups - and the kitchen doesn't have a backup for that precise reason.So I figured whichever wire is switched could go to a wall plate just as easily. Maybe the kitchen is the last one on the chain, and both wires are switched ? I'm in Toronto at present and the wiring is 600 miles away so I can't check.Appreciated that it probably wasn't legal - but it was "existing" (i.e. pre 1993) and let me tell you, its darn convenient when the toaster goes wonky, so no plans to "fix" it anytime soon. Fortunately, there's good coverage everywhere else in the house, including just outside the kitchen, so the kitchen is the only thing not covered when it's off.
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Smoke alarms are wired together so that if one sounds an alarm all sound the alarm. I'm guessing that when you turn off power to the kitchen one, it stops telling the others that it smells smoke, so they stop alarming as well.BruceT
My SD has a hush feature. It resets in 10 minutes.
does it work that way in series with other SDs ?
And if so, make and model please !Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
They have not gone off since I installed them, so I do not know if the hush feature works for all the other series wired SD's. I will look at the owners manual if I can find it.
Hmmm...
Haven't gone off since installed...;-)Sounds like a great hush feature - or better cooks at your house.Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
No, just started a new job after I put them in. When I work I never cook even on weekends. I will let you know when the job ends in January.
Too funny !Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
I am pretty sure my Kidde SDs all shut up when the hush button is pushed on the offended unit. They will chirp every 30 secs or so for 8 minutes before getting rowdy again. They have green and red LEDs that will inform you which is the originating unit among other things. Note that dense smoke will override the hush feature.
My model is 1276CA. The "CA" may indicate it is a Canadian model but it is compatible with an array of other SDs, CO/SDs, COs, heats and several relays (which can be used to run pull stations etc).
sign me up. Thanks !!
Gavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
http://silhouette.kidde.com Never change a smoke alarm battery again!------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Wow, what brand?
I don't know. I will check if I ever get home from work.
I have always felt they should equip SD's with a 10 minute "snooze" button.
>>But why would you say that legging off of a bathroom receptacle would be illegal? People run lines off of existing receptacles routinely.That's an NEC rule - subject, of course, to local variation.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
We had to move a couple of wires to separate breakers in order to sell our house. These were QO breakers designed for two wires. I think moving them was ridiculous, but try arguing with an inspector!
>>There is also nothing wrong with pig tailing 2 wires into one. I have heard - haven't run into it myself - that some AHJ's forbid "pigtails" in panels as they are not rated as junction boxes.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
"that some AHJ's forbid "pigtails" in panels as they are not rated as junction boxes"
Hmmm. Then how do you install GFI or AFCI breakers that require you to make a pigtail connection inside the panel?
That just sounds bogus to me, but I'm no electrician, yada, yada.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Mike, which AFCI breakers require a pigtail? The ones I've seen come with a curled up neutral conductor.
OK, "require" was too strong. About half the time I need to pigtail onto the provided neutral to reach the bar. Never had an inspector question the wire nut in the box.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
noninsulated sta-kon installed with a buchannan crimper covered w/shrink tube...
wire nuts are frowned on...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I believe ya, but the first time I ever ran across the issue years ago, I just did what the inspector said - wire nut. Never been called on it since - not that any inspector ever spent that much time poking around in the panel. ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Nowhere in the code does it even hint that you can't splice in a panelboard enclosure. The only reference is 312.8 and that is tempered with "unless adequate space for this purpose is provided". Splices do not increase "fill count".
>>Hmmm. Then how do you install GFI or AFCI breakers that require you to make a pigtail connection inside the panel?>>That just sounds bogus to me,That AHJ interpretation has been reported a number of times on the quality HI board
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
AHJ?BruceT
Authority Having Jurisdiction.That's "I'm really cool 'cause I know an obscure acronym" talk for your building inspector...
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Ahem.AHJ is an abbreviation, not an acronym. Carry on ;)'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
View Image
If you were being pedantic you would say the inspector is seldom the AHJ. The AHJ is usually the chief building official in a given jurisdiction although it could actually be a committee of politicians. These days it is possible the AHJ is the inspector though but only because they laid all the regular inspectors off.
Thanks.To me it definitely was a confusing TLA.My favorite TLA is the self-referential RAS syndrome. BruceT
>>(especially home inspectors)Would you be willing to make that "especially some home inspectors -- and even some licensed electrician?"
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
">>(especially home inspectors)Would you be willing to make that "especially some home inspectors -- and even some licensed electrician?"I am simply basing that on the number of "double lugging" and "tap" threads threads on the NACHI web site. HIs seem to like to poke around in service panels, having little real knowledge of what they are looking at. I am always amazed at the "defects" they find in perfectly legal wiring.
As for licensed electricians and inspectors, that is why we have continuing education. Hopefully they will learn that you have to read the code in it's entirety and not pick phrases out of context. People parrot "Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes..." without finishing the sentence "...unless adequate space for this purpose is provided".The definition of "adequate space" is fairly ambiguous since the capacity of panelboard enclosures is not really spelled out that well. This usually becomes a judgment call but "never" is not an accurate judgment.
Another problem is to try to use a rule from one area of the code in another area where it doesn't apply. 240.4(D) is the classic example.
Well, if you're going to go by the NACHI site....>>I am always amazed at the "defects" they find in perfectly legal wiring.And are you amazed at the OP's electrician friend who said double taps are ok?BTW: >>I am always amazed at the "defects" they find in perfectly legal wiring.As a home inspector, I do not hold myself out as an expert - I'm a generalist.There are times (not often, but they occur) when I'll see something unusual in a panel (or furnace or plumbing or foundation or roof, or, or, or) and I'll refer my client to a specialist in the field.I give the names of several contractors whose work I am aware is of good quality.Apparently you're not interested in such referrals and would prefer to just bash folks who could be a great referral source for you.Go figure
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
"And are you amazed at the OP's electrician friend who said double taps are ok?"But they are.I will repeat what I have posted several times in this thread. And maybe dozens of times in other threads.There is nothing in the NEC that prohibits connecting 2 wires to a breaker.The underlying requirement is that the breakers have to be used per approval ratings.And some breakers are approved with two wires on a breaker..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
>> >>"And are you amazed at the OP's electrician friend who said double taps are ok?">>But they >>There is nothing in the NEC that prohibits connecting 2 wires to a breaker.are.
Only for a very few types of breakers.If the NEC says "comply with the manufactures requirements" (which it does) and manufacturers spec 1 wire for the majority of breakers, then it seems to me that whether the NEC directly says it or not is meaningless for the purpose of this discussion
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Edited 8/19/2009 5:47 pm ET by rjw
So with all the worldly advice I am curious as to what your going to do.
Well .. I found a square-D double pole that has the 'saddle clamps' for two wires to each pole so I may use this. OR . . . I also found a squard-D that is the same size in the box as the double pole but has a double pole PLUS two little extra 20 amps ... I may use that even though it doesn't have the saddle clamps by twisting the double wires together as if one were putting them into a pig-tail but putting them into the round screw-down socket of the breaker. OR .. I may size down the heaters I'm using so I'm not as nervous about including them on one circuit together and then running only one circuit off the double pole.
As you can hear the problem has morphed slightly for me. It's no longer about the smoke alarms, it's about doubling up on a breaker for a heavy load from electric heaters. With the sq.D that I found that has a double pole PLUS two small 20's I can afford to simply put the smokies on one of the small 20's. My overall problem is that I have a small box with limited spaces in it .. the sub-panel .. but I'm finding as I'm exploring breakers that there's nearly a way around any limitation.
I donno if this'll all make sense or not .. but the posts have been helpful and the job has moved along and it is coming together.
Thanks -
Well .. I found a square-D double pole that has the 'saddle clamps' for two wires to each pole so I may use this. It has to be rated and fit into the panel on question -breakers aren't necessarily interchangeable.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
If this is a QO panel, look at the hold down rail to see if there are slots under the round part. Those will be the only locations that take CTL breakers. Those breakers will have a metal hook under the clamp that fits in the slot. If there are only a few CTL locations you may need to juggle some breakers around.
Some panels will only take non-CTL breakers. (no piggyback breakers allowed). Those will be labeled with only one capacity vs a panel that says "20/30", "20/40" etc.
Twisting up two wires and shoving them into one hole IS "double lugging" and not allowed. If you really need to do this, use a wirenut and pigtail them down to one wire. It is ugly to some but it is legal. Pigtail enough wire on so you can shove the whole thing back in the trough against the side of the panel in an out of the way place. The whole "splice" issue is about not cluttering up the wiring space.
gfretwell,
This is a siemens box .. pretty small .. for 125 amps but with only four spaces. That's why, for me, the discovery of double breakers (peanuts?) was a find ... gave me eight possible circuits. Putting in 240 heaters requiring a double pole breaker took away half of my slots! That's why finding a 240 double pole WITH two outside single pole 20's was a godsend. That's the one I have here.
So, looking at the panel there ARE slots under the hold downs and this weird Sq.D breaker DOES fit into the box perfectly and, by all appearances, correctly. I do NOT see any sort of metal 'hook' as you refer to. Here is the box with all of the specs on it:
http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-51-breaker-box-125-amp/125-amp-main-lug-load-center--613640.aspx
and here's a picture of the insides of it ... bear-bones .. as received:
http://www.mclendons.com/img/products/10/10455360.jpg
See any actual problems with it? Or with what I'm doing with it?
Here is a shot of the breaker itself. A little hard to see .. but the middle two are joined to produce the two-pole 240:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31CdBHdiOBL.jpg
Thanks!
Aaron
OK those look like they are home line breakers not QO. They may fit in a siemens panel but I doubt they are listed for it.
YMMV.
NB,
It may fit, but don't use a Homeline breaker in a Siemens panel - get the right breaker.
See if a Siemens quad breaker QT22020CT2 will do the job for you.
Jim x 3
Can you flesh out that answer a little for those of us who do not know what problems can result from using breakers of one manufacturer in the box of another?BruceT
>>Can you flesh out that answer a little for those of us who do not know what problems can result from using breakers of one manufacturer in the box of another?One is the possibility of fire.Another is denial of insurance coverage if the fire starts in the panel.And, yes, they'll check that sort of detail.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
Bruce,
SquareD homeline breakers are "listed" for use in Homeline panels. Siemens breakers are "listed" for use in (certain) Siemens panels. Homeline breakers are (probably) not listed for use in Siemens panels.
Short answer:
Listed equipment is tested to work properly as a system. Without such testing, the components may or may not fit and work together properly. So, for example, white PVC plumbing pipe can't be used as electrical conduit - its not listed for that use (it doesn't have UV protection that gray PVC conduit has, and there may be other reasons as well). So it may not (continue to) do its job as a part of the overall electrical system.
Long answer:
My emphasis <<and my inclusions>>
NEC 90.7 Examination of Equipment for Safety
For specific items of equipment and materials referred to in this Code, examinations for safety made under standard conditions provide a basis for approval where the record is made generally available through promulgation by organizations properly equipped and qualified for experimental testing, inspections of the run of goods at factories, and service-value determination through field inspections. This avoids the necessity for repetition of examinations by different examiners, frequently with inadequate facilities for such work, and the confusion that would result from conflicting reports on the suitability of devices and materials examined for a given purpose.
It is the intent of this Code that factory-installed internal wiring or the construction of equipment need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been listed by a qualified electrical testing laboratory that is recognized as having the facilities described in the preceding paragraph and that requires suitability for installation in accordance with this Code.
<<So if you install a listed CB that is new and undamaged, the AHJ won't make you prove that it will work>>
FPN No. 1: See requirements in 110.3.
FPN No. 2: Listed is defined in Article 100.
FPN No. 3: Annex A contains an informative list of product safety standards for electrical equipment
NEC 100 Definitions
Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic evaluation of services, and whose listing states that the equipment, material, or services either meets appropriate designated standards or has been tested and found suitable for a specified purpose.
<<UL is an organization acceptable to AHJs. If you build non-listed components into your electrical system, then the AHJ will require your (test or other) satisfactory evidence that the system is acceptable. Of course, using listed equipment is faster and easier than doing your own testing.>>
FPN: The means for identifying listed equipment may vary for each organization concerned with product evaluation, some of which do not recognize equipment as listed unless it is also labeled. Use of the system employed by the listing organization allows the authority having jurisdiction to identify a listed product.
NEC 110.2 Approval
<<There is also a definition for APPROVED, but to keep this short I omitted it(G).>>
The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved.
FPN:See 90.7, Examination of Equipment for Safety, and 110.3, Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment. See definitions of Approved, Identified, Labeled, and Listed.
NEC 110.3 Examination, Identification, Installation, and Use of Equipment
(A) Examination In judging equipment, considerations such as the following shall be evaluated:
(1)View ImageSuitability for installation and use in conformity with the provisions of this Code
FPN: Suitability of equipment use may be identified by a description marked on or provided with a product to identify the suitability of the product for a specific purpose, environment, or application. Suitability of equipment may be evidenced by listing or labeling.
(2)View ImageMechanical strength and durability, including, for parts designed to enclose and protect other equipment, the adequacy of the protection thus provided
(3)View ImageWire-bending and connection space
(4)View ImageElectrical insulation
(5)View ImageHeating effects under normal conditions of use and also under abnormal conditions likely to arise in service
(6)View ImageArcing effects
(7)View ImageClassification by type, size, voltage, current capacity, and specific use
(8)View ImageOther factors that contribute to the practical safeguarding of persons using or likely to come in contact with the equipment
(B) Installation and Use Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
<<The label in the panel indicates the CBs that can be used. The Siemens panel probably doesn't show any SquareD breakers (G)>>
Jim x 3
Thanks for the thorough answer.I've seen several panels with a mix of breakers from manufacturers other than the panel mfr. A home inspector once required that Cutler Hammer breakers in a Murray panel be replaced with Murray breakers. I thought it odd at the time to replace good CH breakers with a lesser quality brand just to match the panel.Why do they make them interchangeable with one another if it's not kosher to mix brands?BruceT
The quad breaker I'm looking at picking up next week has this note on it on its online listing:
Siemens breakers are interchangeable with the following brands:
American Swatch
Arrow Hart
Challenger- Sylvania
Cutler-Hammer
General Switch
Murray- Crouse Hinds
Siemens
ITE
Gould
Westinghouse
You can see it here: http://www.mclendons.com/item.asp?sku=10094570&from=cart
Edited 8/22/2009 3:10 am ET by newbuilder
This is a very confusing area.First of all their is NO STANDARD for interchangeable breakers.All brands of "interchangeable" breakers don't fit CORRECTLY all brands of brands of panel that use "interchangeable" breakers.Then add to the fact that a number of brands have been bought out and the exact replacements are made under a different name.The classical example is the Cutler Hammer, BR series. CH bought out Bryant, which was Westinghouse, and I think maybe General Switch or something liek that. Not sure of the order. And CH has out a letter listing exactly which breakers are now replaced with which BR breaker.Likewise Seimans general purpose panels where Murry, and still sold under the Murry name in some regions.And add to the confusion several companies have come out with LISTED breakers that specifically test for use in other manufactures panels. CH has out such a line that for "interchangeable" breakers. IIRC the part numbers are different than their standardd BR series. And they are ONLY listed for certain specific panels. And while they are only listed for certain panels, they will probably also work fine with other panels from that manufacture. Listed means that they have been tested in that specific application and listed with one of the independent labs such as UL.With some "interchangable" breakers in other brands sometimes the covers don't fit right, sometimes the hold downs don't lock right, sometimes the hold downs don't allow the breaker to seat properly, etc.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
tripleJim ..
thanks so much for the feedback. that particular cb that you fingered doesn't seem to be available .. (at least not where I looked) .. but also, that looks like a simple four circuit breaker. What I have in sq.D is a breaker that LOOKS like that, but actually the middle two switches are joined into a 240 circuit and the outside two switches are each individual 120 circuit breakers. Due to limitations of space, THAT's what I really need.
Thanks for taking the time to explain it all so well!
Aaron
here it is ... it is your number without the '2' on the end:
http://www.mclendons.com/item.asp?sku=10094570&from=cart
Found it locally too .. 10 minute drive.
thanks -
A~
110-14(a)
"Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified."
There is NOTHING in the code that controls the number of connections on a breaker. However, the general rule that covers all sections of the code is that product or method can not be used unless it is "approved" (by some general lab, often the UL, but there are others) and the device is used within the terms of that approval.Many breakers are only approved for a single wire per terminal. But smaller (IIRC 15-20-25-30 amp) SQ D breakers are specifically approved. And if you look on the side of the breaker it will show that and show the range of approved wire sizes.I believe that SQ D Homeline are also approved.And Cutler Hammer CH and maybe BR series. I have not heard of anyohter that are so approved, but there might be.And if you look at the SQ D you can see the difference. Instead of a V shape slot and a set screw for a clamp you have a flat pressure plate with groves in each each side for 2 wires.And since most breakers don't allow for 2 wires too many people have gotten the impression that it is not allowed, period, without knowing the details.Again for having splices within a panel the code does allow it, IF there is space. But that is a judgement call. And thus some inspectors just say that is not allowed even if there is tons of space..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I notices this too about the sq. D's ... the problem is that in this box I've got siemens. I haven't seen it in siemens.
Also .. I'm wanting to run two circuits off of a double pole 240 circuit for two different electric wall heaters. Haven't seen any double-pole breakers with 'two wire' accomodation. Hope they exist. Otherwise, I guess, maybe a pigtail.
thanks -
>>And since most breakers don't allow for 2 wires too many people have gotten the impression that it is not allowed, period, without knowing the details.FWIW, my working approach is that if someone isn't aware of the general rule against double tapping, they aren't ready for the exception to the rule.An amateur might go into a box and see double taps and decide on _that_ basis that the breakers are so rated....
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurmanhttp://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/
I am saying you can't by code that is. But if you don't get it inspected you can do whatever you want and take a chance me personaly I wouldn't do it. I am not an electrician by trade so I can't say what be code in your area. Here if I did it and got caught they would tear my whole house apart looking for infractions.
"I am saying you can't by code that is. "I will REPEAT, there is no place in the NEC that limits a breaker terminal to only one wire.If your AHJ disallowed that on a breaker that was approved for 2 wires either he did know know what he was doing or that their was a LOCAL AMENDMENT prohibiting that. And I doubt the latter..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"opposite messgs from different folks."
It is worse than that. You can have different inspectors that give different messages. That is when it really gets frustrating. You might want to talk to your inspector in advance for the questions you have.
indeed.
it's always really the one inspector you're working with.
that's why I hate it when he's on vacation and a 'fill in' shows up and says,
"what?! .. he let you pass on this?!! He didn't call you on that!!?"
:(
So you have already found that out!?
I'd have some SD's on one circuit, some on another. That way if a breaker trips (or a bath GFCI trips without your knowledge) you still have some functioning SD's.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
I don't know if your question was answered but...
Look at the Fire X brand of detectors. They have a green LED that indicates power on. They also have a few codes with a red LED but I'd have to check what they are for.
http://www.firexsafety.com/homedir/en/ProductsServices/Firex/Products/Smokealarms/Ionization/AC+Ionization.htm
I believe I have the 428 model
As a home inspector, I see double taps frequently - maybe 1 in every 5-10 houses. (Older house, of course, much more common)
When I see 'em, I give each wire a little tug.
Maybe 1 in 50-100 is loose.
Maybe 1 in 1000-1500 has evidence of significant over-heating - scorched or melted insulation.
I don't inspect houses which have burned down.
>>A guy who is an electrician told me that this was fine ....
I suggest not using him for your home. Especially if anyone is going to live there.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
http://rjw-progressive.blogspot.com/