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“I still don’t advise doing your own electrical work unless you are a licensed electrican”
With all due respect, after we bought our 1894 Victorian, I spent most of the first year undoing the mess made by “licensed electricians”. The code violations were too numerous to mention, many of which involved new wire tied to the original knob-and-tube wiring. In our town, the homeowner is allowed to do his own electrical work provided he first obtain a permit and the final work is inspected.
I bought a copy of the NEC and a couple other how-to books on wiring. I replaced every inch of old wire and added dozens of new outlets and fixtures. I removed many unsightly conduits running up and around the exterior walls and fished the new wire inside the walls. I had to install a sub-panel in the attic because the main box didn’t have enough breaker slots. The house is now completely up to code (as of 1996). At 50 bucks an hour for a licensed electrician, the work would have easily cost $10K.
KW
Replies
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Question.....
When was the last time you say an electrical inspector actually check for open grounds, hot neutral, improperly wired down stream GFCI etc.
Im not a licienced eletrican, and cannot legally, do electrical work, but i find myself finding/fixing problems that my $5 tester that LICIENCED electrican have botched.
Whats the point of inspections if all it involves is pulling up and signing a card, or at best taking a quick glace at the panel????
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You got that right brother!
*RickG - Now you've done it! Everyone DIYer reading on this board will be pestering HD for metal suits (whats the SKU?) and the How-To-High-Tension Wiring Book. Not to mention the 'You Can Rewire Your County Grid' Workshop, thurs 8:00 pm.b Been there, done that, bugged it good
*the last time they checked for those was the last time i had an electrical inspection... and the tinme before that ... and the time before that... just because you've got a jurisdiction that doesn't enforce your code doesn't mean the rest of the world is in the same fix...BTW... on a whole house remodel.. we will typically get three tags on electrical inspections... so even the pros make mistakes...
*Around where I live the wiring I see done by licensed electricians is way better than the most of the wiring I see done by amateurs and/or homeowners.You guys can have the residential wiring. Commercial and industrial wiring is a lot more challenging and interesting. Lee
*Maybe I've got a different view because I live around different people. This is farm country. Independent, resourceful people.Everybody here builds their own barns, wires them, takes old diesel motors out of tractors and converts them to irrigation pumps, builds farm machinery from scratch, and is good at all of it. I'm really comfortable with the idea of one of the locals wiring a house.
*Last November to get my CO the inspector checked every GFI ( OK, gfCi) and downstream outlet. He spot checked several regular outlets for hot-neutral-ground correct. And he checked to see if one smoke detector made the others scream. So one improperly wired outlet could have slipped by, but it is time consuming to check 100 outlets.Frank
*Ryan - I live in rural New England : farms, logging, etc.Lee
*Thanks for all the replys and info to everyone who joined in. All feedback is well appreciated. By the way to all Dallas fans, start packing the Stanley Cup, it's coming to New Jersey, back up north where it belongs.Jeff
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I'm installing a GFCI receptacle in a laundry room for a washing machine. I'm using a plastic double gang box. What I'm unsure about is whether or not code allows two GFCI's in one box? Also, I know that if properly wired, all (standard) receptacles downstream of the GFCI are protected. Does this mean that I do not need two GFCI's? Or can I use one GFCI and one standard receptacle? Is this allowed by code and is it considered standard practice and safe? By the way I use only contractor grade receptacles (Leviton,P&S) wired with 20-amp line. Using two GFCI's is more costly, but which is the best method to use?
Thanks
*Not to be contentious but why so many outlets for the washing machine? One GFCI will be sufficient with a standard duplex outlet wired into the load terminals provided for that purpose.
*Jeff,If you're so unsure about electrical, I would sure hire an electrician if I were you. I wouldn't advise you on wiring your house yourself because I don't think you should.Ed. Williams
*It is very acceptable and common practice to use standard receptacles in series after the gfi. They will have the same protection as the gfi when wired properly. However, I must agree that if you are not that familiar with the electrical work at hand, you should call in someone who is. You are getting a permit and inspection on this, aren't you?Pete
*Jeff: yes, that does mean that you do not need two GFCI's. If you have not listened to the above advice, you probably will not read the directions for wiring the GFCI either, in which case I certainly hope that if you have a wife and kids that your will is up to date.
*Ed,I'm not unsure about electrical, just this particular situation. Also a gas dryer is plugged in here and the extra outlets are for convience needs when needed. If I needed to hire an electrican, I would not have posted this question. Do you know the answer or not?
*Jeff, follow the instructions that came with the GFCI. Be careful, too, you would be amazed at how many mistakes homeowners make in well-meaning wiring efforts.
*Jeff,As to your actual question, "whether or not code allows two GFCI's in one box," I _think_ (although I am not an electrician) the answer depends on the size of the GFI's, the number of connections in the box, and the size of the box. You're only allowed so many square inches of electrical devices in a box, depending on the box's size.I suspect that the reason for the "attitude" in many of the responses is that many were't reading it closely, and assumed you weren't aware of extended GFI protection, then decided you were asking such a basic question your lack of knowledge was so extensive you didn't have suficient knowledge to do the job.As Andrew noted, be careful and be sure you know what you're doing. Electrical problems is a leading cause of house fires, and significant electrical problems (usually amateur workmanship) is one of the most common of problems I find in the course of doing home inspections.Bob
*The question seems intelligent enough. If he had asked whether red or black wire was better, I'd get in his face about trying this too but he didn't. I'd guess he knows that GFI's are required here and that GFI's protect other outlets. Maybe he's bright enough to figure out the complexity of a wire nut too.So, my answer is. Sure, use one GFI to protect the other outlet. If you can get an oversized box, do this because (as you probably know) GFI's are a bitch to shove into a box.
*Wire nuts...never figured them out. When ever I threaded the bolts in, it always pushed the wires out....I just use some duct tape....or maybe a little scotch tape, that way you can see the arcing of the wires...
*Jeff - the 'real' answer (ask any electrician) to this question is: Don't use a GFCI outlet for a washing machine or any heavy motor loads. The lock rotor amperage draw from the motor coming on (up to 6 times running amperage - it's what dims the lights in the house slightly) will tend to trip the GFCI breaker. Same goes for sump pumps, well pumps, etc.O.K. now everyone can jump all over me ...b Been there, done that, can't remember ...
*Perhaps he's responding to the code requirement for laundry, kitchen, bath & basement receptacles to be GFCI, but see below ...
*I agree with Jeff. Were it me, I'd have a dedicated, single receptacle for the washer, then install a GFCI protected outlet downstream of this for the convenience items. Washers trip GFCIs quite handily.
*Barry is hinting at my thought. Isn't a washing machine supposed to have a circuit all to itself? The same for a dryer? Then, as Jeff says, those outlets should not be GFCI. Finally a third circuit for other outlets, the first one needing to be GFCI.I'm not an electrician, that's just my understanding (and how I did it).Rich Beckman
*Washing machine - 20 Amp dedicated circuit.b Been there, done that, can't remember
*Geez, ask 6 contractors, get 12 answers! The NEC requires one 20-amp for the "laundry". Whether there is a GFCI requirement depends on location -- is this within 6 feet of the sink? Below grade? Garage? Even if "yes" there is an exemption for dedicated outlets that aren't readily accessible, such as behind the machine.It sounds as though you're planning to bootleg off the existing laundry circuit, so there are other considerations such as what else is attached to it, etc. Despite the jokes, it's true that even wire nut splices are often done wrong. High-current circuit through bad splice --> high resistance --> heat --> fire. Jeff, an electrician will charge maybe $150 for an install like this, and you could look over his/her shoulder, ask, a few questions, maybe get something else fixed, too. I wish I'd done something like that starting out. Never caught fire, but did get a couple of shocks...
*So - I agree with architect JC on this but, if I have two washing machines is a single 20 amp duplex split fed the same as separate is two "dedicated, single receptacle(s)"?And I would agree that a separate 20 amp outlet with gfci protection is required - but this circuit can be used for an exterior plug, maybe others. Like, how many people iron anymore anyway?
*I guess one of us could look it up? Or would that be too wimpy? Is there an electrician in the audience?
*My 2 bits:From memory only: Dedidcated 20-amp circuit, non-gfci, single-outlet recepticle for the washing machine (so that nothing but the washing machne can be plugged into this circuit) I don't know if code requires the washing machine to be on a dedicated circuit, but I always try to put any stationary appliance with a large motor on its own circuit just for good measure. I always get nervous when lights dim upon such devices starting up. From Rex Cauldwell's "Wiring a House" (1996): Laundry Room: a 20-amp circuit is required for the laundry room and cannot be shared with any other room. You can get by with only one recepticle if that's all you want. The dryer is an independent appliance and not considered part of the laundry circuit.I don't know if it's changed since 96.I can think of no reason you would want a second GFCI in the box if it's on the same circuit.Steve
*Now that I think about it, the instructions that came with the washer said that it required its own circuit. The instuctions for the dryer said thati itrequiredi itsown circuit. I don't know what the code says.Rich Beckman
*RICH !! GET OUT ! GET OUT NOW !! THE CALLER IS IN THE HOUSE!! GET OUT NOW, QUICKLY !! THE.. CALLER... IS.. IN... THE.. HOUSE... WITH.. YOU !!!!! Oh, uh, er, I'm sorry wrong movie. Rich !! Get out now !! The washer is about to explode. Grab your teddy bear and run, buddy !!!LOL Your understanding is the same as mine. makes total sense.Oh, and Jeff Clarke, you can add refridgerators to that list of things which will consistently trip a GFCI. : )
*1999 NEC section 210-8(a): All 125-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified below shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. (5) Unfinished basements. For purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like.Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another, and that is cord-and plug-connected in accordance with Section 400-7(a)(6),(a)(7), or (a)(8).Receptacles installed under the exceptions to Section 210-8(a)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of Section 210-52(g).Section 210-11 (c)(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by Section 210-52(f). This circuit shall have no other outlets.Section 210-52(f) Laundry areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry.Section 210-52(g) Basements and Garages. For a one-family dwelling, at least one receptacle outlet, in addition to any provided for laundry equipment, shall be installed in each basement and in each attached garage, and in each detached garage with electric power. See Sections 210-8(a)(2) and (a)(5). Where a portion of the basement is finished into a habitable room(s), the receptacle outlet required by this section shall be installed in the unfinished portion.Hope this confuses the hell out of everyone! Who writes this stuff -lawyers? (oops!)Also, I'm sure most of us are aware a GFCI is not a overload device like a circuit breaker-it works be sensing any difference between the line and neutral conductor currents.
*Andrew D - A few really good points.
*Reading between the lines on 'unfinished basement' the NEC code advisory committee seems to have concluded that if you've finished off your basement you've fixed any potential wet basement issues.I guess this was before Hurricane Floyd.b Been there, done that, can't remember ...
*Jeff,You may have died from wiring your laundry room already, but if not, here's how to do all... Three circuits are needed. All need to have their own twenty amp breaker, 12 wire run, and receptacle...For the appliances, the standard receptacle will do; one should be near the washer, one near the dryer (both preferably behind the machines up high enough to unplug for moving machines, but not easy to use for other purposes)...The third circuit will be where you would like to iron etc. and will have a gfci receptacle in it, using a large box to make legal and easy to wire since gfci's are so massive....Install other receptacles down stream of the gfci if you have more other purpose needs and locations in your laundry room, as I know some laundry rooms are huge today with baby changing areas and whatever...A historical footnote...I wired my first customer's home with a $10.00 Do-It-Yourself manual...And no fire yet after many years....I Did buy the inspecter lunch and fill a notebook full with helplful tidbits though!!!Good luck, and remember to read my disclaimer below my posting name....near the stream of electrons,aj
*Jeff,The answer is no. Two GFI's are not required. One GFI at the head of the run will do. You can also home run the laundry room to your breaker box and install the GFI there (instead of the standard breaker). Those are not quite as cantankerous as the wall mounted kind. I still don't advise doing your own electrical work unless you are a licenced electrican so my comments concerning electrical work are simply for conversation and not meant as advice. I've been building for 26 years and I know enough about electricty to hire an elctrician when I need electrical work at my house. But the chance you take with the safty of the people that have to live in your house is on your head, not mine. I'd hate to hear that someone in your family got fried or that your house burned down because you wanted to save a few bucks. I know you care about the safty of your family, I'm sure you have them buckle up in the car and you wouldn't send them out in the rain without a rain coat. These are things that they can do for themselves if they want to. But if you make a mistake wiring the house.......there ain't nothing they can do about it. You leave them like sitting ducks. Be careful.Ed. Williams
*"I still don't advise doing your own electrical work unless you are a licensed electrican"With all due respect, after we bought our 1894 Victorian, I spent most of the first year undoing the mess made by "licensed electricians". The code violations were too numerous to mention, many of which involved new wire tied to the original knob-and-tube wiring. In our town, the homeowner is allowed to do his own electrical work provided he first obtain a permit and the final work is inspected. I bought a copy of the NEC and a couple other how-to books on wiring. I replaced every inch of old wire and added dozens of new outlets and fixtures. I removed many unsightly conduits running up and around the exterior walls and fished the new wire inside the walls. I had to install a sub-panel in the attic because the main box didn't have enough breaker slots. The house is now completely up to code (as of 1996). At 50 bucks an hour for a licensed electrician, the work would have easily cost $10K. KW
*I'm with Ken on this one. I do my own brakes on my car, I guess I could screw it up and crash into a tree. I also do all the wiring in my house. I'll sub electrical on most projects but If the electrical part of a project is small enoug, I'll even "help" the owner do it as is allowed here.I worked for nearly 10 years in facilities maintenance, mostly as a maintenance supervisor. We did all our own wiring in-house. Never had a licensed electrician on staff. We still did safe, quality work.Now, if I may piss some people off: The idea that it takes 5 years to learn the electrical trade well enough to take the licensing test is just silly. Electricity is just not that complicated. I really think the learning curve flattens out at about six months.
*Hey Ken and Ryan,If you guys feel confident repairing your own brakes and doing your own elcetrical, then that's great. I'm not trying to stop you, I'm just saying I wouldn't advise it.May your trucks always stop on a dime and may your house never spark.Best-O-Luck,Ed. Williams
*It is possible to tie knob and tube wiring to BX, Romex, whatever and still be to code ( except in Chicago area from the discussion here). This is very often done in older homes when one is only moving a switch box or wall fixture. Major renovations get new wire back to panel box. But it must be done safely and with the proper connectors, which are very rare, and the technique of soldering.Frank
*A few people have stated that large amperage draws from motors will trip GFCIs. I believe it is not the amperage itself, but rather the phase lag which allows the current out to lag the current in, thereby tripping the GFCI. A GFCI doesn't look at overall current, thats the circuit breaker's job. So, where does this missing current go? Into the magnetic field for running the motor.Thats my understanding at least.
*Jeff, I don't know that 2 GFIs will fit in a double box, but you might require a single circuit for just the washer in your area. This is code in many places. Check with the building inspector on this because local codes vary too much for anyone here to answer your question correctly. The one GFI will protect all outlets downstream if you wire the rest of the circuits to the load side of the GFI. This can be a nuisance though, since the GFI will be behind the washer, and if someone trips the circuit they will have to go to the laundry to reset it. Some people need to lighten up here about electrical safety. Just try to do everything to code or better, and have it inspected properly.
*Mark,I don't want to seem "too" over sensitive on this matter. I do believe that electrical is something that a DIYer should shy away from. It's probably a good idea for the home-owner to talk to the city inspector about wiring his own house.......that will put a stop to it REAL quick.Ed. Williams
*Your are must be different than mine. Home owners are considered "exempt applicants" when applying for electrical permits and may do the work themselves. More home owner permits are issued than permits applied for by licensed electricians. In fact, during inspections, an inspector will never ask who did the work. The work is discussed as "this was done", never "I did this". or "how was this handled", never "how did you do this" because the inspectors know that on most small projects, contractors do their own wiring, get permits for it and have it inspected without an electrician ever being involved.Requiring that a licensed electrician do the wiring AND that it be inspected is overkill. Require on or the other. If you can get a license and still be incompetent enough to require inspections, lets stop licensing people.
*Ryan,In Dallas, a licenced elecrtical contractor is the only one allowed to pull the electrial permit when wiring is changed or installed. Then the work they do is inspected by the city inspector before a CO can be issued. Your right, a licence doesn't mean you know what you're doing, it means at least you passed the test. I wish that in my state carpenters had to be licenced and pass a test for some sort of certification. Down here, any farm boy with a hammer and nail bag from Home Depot can sell his services as a carpenter. Look out Mr. Homeowner.They have a fix-up clean-up permit that homeowners can get, but it does not allow them to mess with the structure or utilities. I think that's the way it should be.Ed. Williams
* "They have a fix-up clean-up permit that homeowners can get, but it does not allow them to mess with the structure or utilities. I think that's the way it should be."I couldn't disagree more. This from a Texan? Aren't you the "keep all our freedom's" state. (or something like that). Many, many regular guys (and gals) are very handy and many homeowners who may be full time bankers, truck drivers, or cashiers are competent enough to do their own structural changes, electrical wiring, and plumbing. I don't think they should be told that it's against the law for them to do so.I believe that if you own a property, you should be able to do whatever you want with it without the government getting itself involved.I'm embarrased whenever I hear a contractor say that only contractor's should be "allowed" to do certain types of work. It's akin to lawyers saying that you shouldn't be "allowed" to represent yourself in small claims court.
*Here's another regional difference, I guess; anywhere I've worked in this country, if someone other than a licensed electrician does electrical work, for money, the homeowners insurance is void if there is a fire. Some guys disregard this; I may move a box around from time to time, but I won't touch wiring. All plumbing at least in new construction here has to be done by a licensed plumber also.I agree with Ed and with licensing in general; not to stop people working on their own homes, but to keep dabblers out of the market.
*Ryan,Sorry pal, I will always disagree with you on this one. Yeah, many, many people could probably get by working on thier own homes, but many more cannot. As an "American" I believe in freedom, but that doesn't mean I'm free to screw up the wiring in my house and burn down my neighbors in the process of expressing my freedom. Do you think the "drivers licence" takes away any of your freedom? How about a medical licence? Would you let anyone with a knife and a do-it-yourself book from the Medical Depot take out your gall bladder? The people who teach our children in public funded schools have to have a licence to teach. Should we open up that field too? As a tax payer would you like to know that the guy you're paying to teach your kid to read was last cooking frys at Burger Doodle?You want to move out in the country where there are no building codes, then you can do whatever you want. If you live in the city with the rest of us........then you have to play by our rules. Building codes are for safty concerns; they are not implemented to "keep you down". There is a reason why most cities started the whole inspection and licence process. It's probabaly because so many property owners screwed up so many homes and businesses.I'm not embarrased to live by the building codes and rules......I'm proud that I live someplace where the safty of the whole neighborhood and prospective buyers of a property are considered. It's not to take "rights" away from anyone......it's to insure that you don't have the right to put my new home in harms way by doing shoddy workmanship to that house before I buy it.On this point you may be ambiguous (uncertain) only if you don't care about the safty of your customers.Ed. Williams
*I'm with Ryan on this. If I do my own work on my own home and it's inspected, that's way different from not requiring driver licenses, etc.
*Thanks for the replys fellas, but I just couldn't resist jumping in on this one. I agree with you 100% Ryan, if some of these inspectors had their way, building, electrical, etc... they would also tell you what to plant in your vegetable garden! I totally understand the reasoning behind their purpose, but lets be honest here, wiring a house is not so difficult that you need a masters degree in electrical to do. Now when I say wiring a house I do not mean a new house complete, I talking about various runs and upgrades from the box. I consider anything from the box in, to be my territory. Now if I'm ever unsure about something I do not hesitate to ask for the answer, I don't like guessing. This topic seems to generate a lot of discussion, just wait until I post my swimming pool and basement wiring topics. As far as Ed in Texas is concerned, I think they have homeowners so scared down there that if anyone does any work without a permit or contractor, George Bush will have them executed in the electric chair.
*Hey Jeff,I'm glad you jumped back in. I wish you well with your wiring. I really do. It's great that you can do that for yourself, and if your doing the wiring yourself is ok with the city that you live in and you DO have your work inspected by your city electrical inspector.....well, I have no problem with it. As long as you file for the proper permits and get the green tag from the city. Do you plan to get the work inspected by the city? Why do I doubt that?In Texas we fry a lot of things......fish, turkey, criminals, sausage and beef.........but we draw the line at frying our families as they sleep.Good Luck,Ed. Williams
*By the way Ed, How about New Jersey in six games over those Dallas Stars.And I'll bet you can fry families by just leaving the air conditioner off. Jeff
*Ed,I did move back out into the country about two years ago. I 've got three houses that I can see from my place, and one barn that I can almost make out across the back field.I do want my doctor to be licensed, not necessarily by the government but I'm glad somebody's doing it. However (I'm not kidding) if I wanted to go to an unlicensed doctor, I should be able to. I once stitched a guy's arm. I Could probably go to jail for that but he wanted me.About Driver's licenses, The don't keep the bad drivers off the road so lets get rid of them. If you don't have one, you drive anyway and you get to drive without one as long as you're "practicing" to take the test. Even someone who is so dangerous that they'll never pass the test can keep getting a permit to practice forever. So, all a drivers license does is provide another tax. I don't know what it was like when the states decided to take away the freedom of driving and told everybody that you can't drive anymore without getting permission. Oh, and that car that you're owned for years, now you'll have to pay us an annual "registration fee" just to be able to use it. And, I never said I was embarrased to follow the building codes, I'm embarrased when one of us says that only one of us is "qualified" to do the work, It's just alittle opportunistic to want the law to require that we be hired for everything. I usually follow the code to the letter, unless I truly believe I can do better than the code. Do you really believe that the code is the only way to do quality work or that it's actually the best way in all situations?And, unfortunately, protecting people from themselves always does end up taking their rights away. There is no way to control people's behavior without taking away their freedoms.
*on the subject of inspections being required.. absolutely.... just because you jeff, ryan & bill feel confident enuf to do yur own wiring doesn't mean that you represent the norm..far from it...crawling around in peoples houses sure points out why we need codes and inspection / enforcement...too much lamp cord where #12 should have been used...too many open grounds... too many hot neutrals...gimme a breakjust watch the evening news.. if it ain't cigarettes it's bad wiring...lives lost... houses burned to the ground...and these are minimum codes.. we should all watch diligently to make sure the codes are written for safety.. and not for ((nice to have))but we need the codes to enforce minimum performance..and i don't think electrical inspectors should be in the position of teaching electrical wiring.. if you.. or the homewoner.. don't know how to do it .. hire someone with a license and the knowledge to do it right...b but hey , whadda i no?
*Ed....Stay out of Upstate NY.....No licenses....And no more fires here than anywhere else. Why we can even solder copper and glue PVC...near the freely flowing stream, aj
*Mike....Same for you pal....Stay out of Upstate NY with all your arrogance and ideas that only a license makes it right...We have b nolicense requirements here...And all is as well as it is anywhere....No fires or plumbing leaks today, near the stream,aj
*aj.. my bags are packed... nice of u to invite me and the in-laws for that week at yur house..gud to no u do things right too... wonder where all the other incompetents come from?must be the wiring fairy does all the schlock, huh?
*I think anyone can handle minor electrical wiring if they read the code books. More homes here are blown up by spilled gasoline, kerosene heaters, leaking propane grills, dropped cigarettes, and homowner connected gas appliances than by self wired homes. The real ratty work is done by some schlock who didn't know what he was doing, didn't ask an electrician for advice, and didn't have the work inspected. My own house was butchered by a self taught electrician and carpenter in the past. There was some real funky circuits here. My dad and I rewired the whole house and changed the service over from fuses to breakers. (He is a retired electrician and I worked for an electrical contractor many years ago. Everything passed inspection on one inspection.Jeff sounds like he is just trying to find an answer to a code question, he sounds competent to me.
*Speaking of dangerous electrical jobs, did anyone see "Suicide Missions" on TLC? They had a show on linemen. Some of these guys work on live 500,000 volt wires while sitting on a helicopter platform or a superinsulated boom. Wearing a metal suit to protect them from induced currents, they draw an arc and then clamp on to the line to be at the same potential as the line. They also showed pratice rescue missions on the same lines by lowering an "injured" lineman to the ground. If they get closer than 11'6" to any metal on the structure they will flash over and that's it.
*Ryan,In theory, I do agree with you guys. However, I've seen what the masses can do if left to themselves.......and I'm sorry to report.....it ain't pretty. I grew up in the 60's and fought the rules and regulations as if they were satan himself. But as I grew older and wiser, I realized that there is a method to this madness. Anarchy is not good for survival unless you want to go live in one of those survialist retreats off in the boonies somewhere. That's not really true anarchy, (where everyone makes there own rules) that's more of a dictatorship where one person rules the roost. I don't jump up and down for joy when I pay 29% of my personal income to Uncle Sam to buy $1000.00 nuts and bolts for the space program.......but you have to take the good with the bad. Building codes are the minimum. That's the least we can do for our customers. I too try to excede those minimum requirements. But for a group of people to live together and survive, there has to be some sort of order to protect the masses from themselves. Any group of people when thrown together will try to find some sort of order within the group. It even happens in dog packs, and they don't have a government body as we know it, but there still is a chain of command that is respected by the group.Without public regulations it's a mess. Trust me.I guess this is a long winded way to say that I belive in building codes and licencing and inspections.......at least we are trying to create some level of standards to protect ourselves from those who don't care about anything except themselves.My opinion,Ed. Williams
*Hey Jack,Don't worry, I have no desire to come to upstate NY. Too cold for this Southerner.I find it hard to believe that no one up there has a licence. You must live in a rural community.Near the A/C.Ed.
*Hey Jeff,The fans down here all say "The cup stays here!". I really don't know much about the game.......I'm a football fan.It is all too sad that we will lose some people this year due to the heat as we do every year. We do our part as a company by donating box fans to the people here who have no A/C, and can't afford much. It's usually the elderly on fixed incomes who suffer the most. A lot of the state has already hit over 100 degrees.......and it ain't even June.Wish us luck,Ed. Williams