In anticipation of lashing stuff in the back of my pickup, I learned several knots — bowline, figure eight stopper, trucker’s hitch, tautline hitch, double half hitch… But I ran into an unexpected question and that is what is the best type of rope to use? I had two types on hand — something called “Trucker’s Rope” which is orange and black and made of nylon. It had no elasticity, which I figured would be a plus, but it was impossible to actually ‘dress’ the knots because the rope was too stiff. The knots would never really close. That made me nervous so I abandoned that and used a cotton rope. The knots dressed beautifully and it all worked out but that rope seems to have some built in elasticity which left me wondering if that’s not so good when tying stuff off on a truck. What do you recommend in the way of rope… Braided? Twisted? Preferred diameter? Is there such a thing as a cotton rope with a nylon core? Also, does the type of rope matter if it gets wet? Thanks in advance!
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I can say that, yes, all those things do matter, but can't tell you which rope is best. I know that clothes line is not good for tying things to trucks (unless you enjoy having to stop and gather the busted up stuff off of the road and throw it back into the truck and hope it stays on until you get to where you're going!). As you say, some rope is stretchy--too stretchy, and some is too stiff. I'm sure someone else knows about these things and will give you a good answer shortly!
I tossed the ropes and bungees..all ratchet straps for me.
I carry some rope for odds and ends and scaffold lifting of tool bags, but thats all. ANY thing important gets a strap.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Being an old navy man I can offer some suggestions. The orange rope you mentioned was probably not nylon, because nylon is elastic and not stiff. It's likely you had polypropylene, which is stiff and holds knots badly. The only redeeming value is that it floats. It's only purpose is to tie to a swimmer, any other rope will drag a swimmer down like an anchor.
If you want something not too stretchy that's also strong, consider double braided polyester.
Synthetic ropes are unharmed by wetness, but cotton and hemp can eventually rot. Nylon degrades when exposed to sunlight, but it takes a while.
By the way, I'm only calling it "rope" for you landlubbers.
To add a 'line' to the discussion, I use either a 1/2 inch nylon or 1/4 inch polyprop. line for tying down loads, depending on their size and weight.
Truck has added aftermarket tie points on the outside of the bed, these are attached using figure 8 hitches. Then, the final tightening is with a clove hitch around one of the cross bed loops using that loop as a 'block' to taughten the entire string.
While we are on the subject: http://www.animatedknots.com/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg
Reinvent, That is a GREAT website. Thanks for sharing it. I have to agree with Sphere about the ratchet straps though. I keep four of them in a bag in my truck ever since I lost a load of two and a half inch galvanized pipe off my roof into the back of a mini van at a stop light. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
of all the personnal quips I've seen, yours is ever so true.
'no amount of hard work can make up for a sloppy estimate'
However, no amount of estimation and planning can eliminate hard work.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Holy Carp; to echo what ShelterNerd said, thanks for that site. I'm hooked.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
That "trucker's rope" is definitely polypropylene. Very unpleasant to work with, but inexpensive and lasts longer in sunlight than the yellow polypro.
Organic ropes rot when kept moist, whereas most synthetics degrade from UV exposure. Exception is polyester, which is also stretch resistant. Therefore I second Waynel's recommendation for braided polyester.
Sometimes the stretch in nylon rope can be an asset when lashing stuff to a truck. It maintains tension when stretched, like a bungee, but stronger.
Bill
If you want supple rope that doesn't stretch you want Dacron (polyester). This is what sailors use for "sheets" (ropes used to control the sails), since it doesn't stretch. Not to be confused with polypropylene (which stretches about as much as nylon).
Yersmay, I have found that nylon rope not only stretches under load (usually a nice feature) but it also stretches when wet.
Tie a load down with dry nylon rope, drive through the rain awhile, and see how quickly a previously taut trucker's hitch loosens. I almost lost three canoes that way once.
I imagine those ratcheting nylon webbing units also stretch when wet.
I will direct this one to Dinosaur so he can pipe in with suggestions.
Edited 8/25/2007 11:13 pm ET by Pierre1
Thanks for the heads up, Pierre. Here's the skinny on this stuff:
The orange and black 'trucker's rope' was indeed polypro; it is identical to 'yellow rope' sold in hardware stores except for the colour (which helps delay UV degradation but has no other significance). It is very difficult even for an expert to get standard knots to hold in this rope, but, unfortunately, it is the cheapest rope around and so it is what the hardware stores carry and what 99% of people these days think of as 'rope.' While there is a brushed version of polypropylene--which has much more 'hand' and is easier to tie--it is not generally available and must be bought from a rope-walk or chandler. One of the brand names of this type is Roblon¯; it is manufactured to imitate the look of natural fibre rope.
Dacron¯ is the Dupont's brand name for polyester. It is much stronger than polypro, but like it, does not stretch very much. Three-strand polyester can be either hard-laid or soft-laid; the hard-laid stuff is quite stiff and requires tools, muscle, and expertise to splice. Its usual use is for halyards. The soft-laid stuff is more often used for big dock lines or towing straps. Braided versions, usually known as 'kernmantle' rope (whether it is or not) are used by rock climbers and rescue workers as 'static lines'--lines they do not expect to shock-load (catch them after a fall). For that, they want 'dynamic' rope, which is made from nylon.
Nylon is visually indistinguishable from polyester; until it starts to stretch under load--it can stretch up to one third beyond its original length before breaking--you simply can't tell the difference, so it's well to remember which line you bought is made from which fibre. Laid nylon is used aboard ship for towing hawsers (whenever wire rope isn't; manila isn't used much anymore for towing) and some sailors prefer it for sheets because it can absorb the shock of an accidental jibe better than polyester or any of the natural-fibres such as hemp or manila.
Nylon and polyester are also often woven into both flat and tubular webbing. Tubular webbing is used by climbers for a variety of purposes; flat nylon webbing is the type of material used in most inexpensive ratchet tie-down straps. Commercial tie downs, of the sort you see on 18-wheel truck trailers, are made from polyester webbing and do not stretch.
The most common high-quality natural-fibre ropes today are hemp, manilla, cotton, and linen. Sisal and jute should never be used for anything more serious than tying up packages or bales of hay as the length of their fibres is too short for the resulting rope to have any dependable strength.
Generally, the average fibre length is what determines rope strength; this is why plastic ropes are stronger size-for size than natural fibre ropes--plastic 'fibres' are actually continuous filaments which run from one end of a rope to the other. Linen is the strongest of those natural ropes I mentioned; it is also expensive as Hades and not often encountered for that reason. Hemp is next in strength and was traditionally used for standing rigging, which was tarred, wormed, parcelled, and served.
Manila comes next, but is much more prickly than hemp, which has a soft and easy hand. Manila used to be used for towing hawsers but this is rare today. Cotton is last, having the shortest fibres of all four. I do not often see cotton in rope sizes but a good cotton twine is essential in the kitchen as polyester twine can melt when you use it to tie up a roast before cooking it.
Hemp, linen, and cotton rope are usually manufactured in the natural state; manila is usually oiled. As with any natural fibre, all four will rot unless properly cared for (which means drying the line after use in wet weather). Manila will resist better than the others because it is oiled; however, hemp will absorb stockholm tar better than manila for the same reason and makes excellent tarred marline (when you can get it).
Natural rope is not subject to UV degradation the way artificial fibre rope is. It is also not affected by organic solvents such as petroleum products which can destroy some plastic ropes very quickly. Natural rope does shrink when wet, but returns to its original length when it dries. It is important to slack a natural fibre rope to allow for this shrinkage when it becomes wet after a load has been lashed down tight; otherwise the rope could break as it shrinks.
The short answer? For a rope to tie things to a truck, I would choose a soft-laid polyester or manila, depending on what I was carrying and under what conditions. For ratchet straps, I would buy the 2" commercial trucker straps, since the thin, 1" nylon webbing used in the cheap straps isn't going to hold down a pile of of lumber or pipe if it decides to keep going when you have to pile on the brakes....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Interesting thing about hemp rope is it was used for rigging on stage--my friend was a theater manager and showed me around the theater in Muskegon and showed me the "hemp house"--at the back of the stage where all the ropes come down that are used for flies and other stuff that is held up to the rafters (or whatever those are called in the theater).
Do they have a "hemp room" for the actors and crew?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I'm sure they do, but maybe not necessarily in the theater. That and cocaine rooms and so on.
Maybe they just bring brownies in, so the smell doesn't give them away.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Ah, yes, reminds me of the vodka jello story I heard at Wright-Patt.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Well.... are you gona share that story with us or keep us guessing?
Not much to tell. Liquor was banned at Christmas parties in the labs, but of course someone read the rules in detail and figured out it was only LIQUID booze that was verboten. So, after some experimentation, it was determined that lime Jello could be made with vodka and still retain the required degree of non-liquidness.Or so the story goes. I was there in the late 60s and this tale was fresh then (or sounded such to me).
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I would think the alcohol would evaporate out. When in Germany they told us we could not have booze at office Christmas thing (in office). Buddy brought a pile of the brandy filled chocolates.
You make it the night before and keep it refrigerated. Don't cut it into too small of chunks. Shouldn't evaporate to any major degree.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Yes, hemp was preferred in theatres because it's easier on the hands than manila and most stagehands don't have the inch-thick calluses of an average foretopman.
Funny, though, I knew as soon as I typed the word 'hemp' in that post that we were gonna hear all sorts of silly jokes about it....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The thing about the word "hemp" in reference to the line used in theatre is that, like many things in theatre, the word has long outlasted the actual use of the item. Manila has been the standard since well before WWII, yet "hemp" is still in the nomenclature. The rigging of a theatre is a pretty neat process and would probably appeal to a lot of the builders on this site.
As far as the callouses required for work as a stagehand, I will put the leathery hands of a professional flyman against those of a sailer any day! It's been years since I worked the fly rail on a regular basis but the job requires a blend of technical chops and artistry. I found gloves to take away the sensitivity required to do the job well, and my hands looked like hell for years.
No disrespect to flymen intended; I actually worked both on and off stage in my college days and for a short period thereafter had delusions of making a career on Broadway (where the one theatre I got to know moderately well was still rigged with real hemp). And you're right; nobody wore gloves.
But I never developed the square fingers working backstage that I later got working on a traditionally rigged museum ship while I was doing sea time for my first merchant marine ticket.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
BTW, thanks for that summary. I learned a few things from that.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
Glad to have been able to help.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"It is very difficult even for an expert to get standard knots to hold in this rope"I really got to disagree with that statement.I've prefered and used "truckers rope" for years and find that even the most excrecable knot will hold if given 2 or 3 minutes to take a set.By using a couple of "truckers' hitches" as blocks, I can get it tight enough to pull the sides of a P/U bed in enough to destroy the bed.It's very easy to knot or braid if you need to Eye an end or splice, and the braids don't have to be wrapped to prevent unraveling and fuzzies.I use cleats on my truck and have found that even a single figure eight will not slip.I have three pieces left that are over ten years old, two have splices and the third really needs a section cut out, but they have been demoted to don't-matter-if-it-breaks dirty work like slinging creosoted RR ties and tying down loads of trash and junk.SamT
Sam, if you've got to hold the knot closed for two or three minutes until the rope 'takes a set' that, in my world, makes it 'difficult' as in difficult = PITA.
Sure, I've tied up 700-foot cement barges with that stuff...and I've also used 16-pound sledge hammers and 6' pinch bars to untie bowlines put into 8" polypro that were jammed tight by the weight of the barge. So yeah, you can get a knot to hold in it...but it is just not what you would call a 'cooperative' rope, no matter how you deal with it.
Polypro's primary characteristics are (a) low cost; and (b) low cost. Oh, yeah, and (c) it floats. There is a legitimate need for line which floats (although coir used to fill that need before polypro was invented).
I'm happy you're happy with your truckers' rope, but I have to ask myself how much happier you might be with something a little higher up on the cordage evolutionary tree....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"you've got to hold the knot closed for two or three minutes until the rope 'takes a set'"What are you talking about?That is not what I said.SamT
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SamT <!----><!---->
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Dinosaur <!----><!---->
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93928.36 in reply to 93928.14
"It is very difficult even for an expert to get standard knots to hold in this rope"
I really got to disagree with that statement.
I've prefered and used "truckers rope" for years and find that even the most excrecable knot will hold if given 2 or 3 minutes to take a set.
Sorry, Sam, but that's what I understood from what you wrote and how I know that stuff behaves. Polypro has 'shape memory' which will indeed cause it to stay more or less in the shape it's been bent to after it's been held in that shape for a while (although 2 or 3 minutes isn't long enough unless it's very warm).
But I don't want to annoy you so I'll just drop the whole thing.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
OK, I can see where someone might have gotten the idea that I tie shiddy knots. But, then, how would someone who doesn't know how to tie knots know if they are good or knot?Or know how to splice, or tie "blocks" in a line. Heck I even know what string and rope are.For that matter, anyone who puts a knot in an 8" poly line needs a new boss.SamT
Bro, this discussion has somehow veered completely off course, and I don't really understand why. You and I never fight, so the only conclusion I can come to is we've misunderstood each other.
I said that even an expert has to work harder getting knots to hold in polypropylene than he would have to work to get the same knot to hold in most other types of rope. That's a comparative statement, but the comparison is between two types of rope, not between two types of rope users.
You said you liked polypro trucker's rope and could get even the lousiest knots to hold well if you gave them a minute or so to set up...which I didn't dispute. I simply characterised needing to give the rope time to set on a knot as a PITA. (Which I think it is, for me. That's all.)
I never said, thought, or implied you tied 'shiddy knots'. If you can show me where I posted anything that would lead someone to believe that's what I meant, I'll apologize most abjectly and edit it out.
I did imply that I consider polypropylene pretty crappy rope...but that has nothing to do with you, just the rope itself. I think it is #### rope, and prefer not to use it except for those few applications where it is appropriate (floating emergency pick-up lines for unmanned barges; water-ski tow ropes; mooring pennants for off-shore anchor bouys; sacrificial dock lines; etc.).
I do not personally consider polypro appropriate for lashing. That doesn't mean it can't be used for such service--lots of people use it for that every day--it simply means I would rather have something I don't have to fight with to get it to behave. The original poster asked for recommendations; that's what I gave him.
....
how would someone who doesn't know how to tie knots know if they are good or knot?
Or know how to splice, or tie "blocks" in a line. For that matter, anyone who puts a knot in an 8" poly line needs a new boss.
I am going to assume you are not referring to me.
But even so, I ought to explain that dock lines on cement barges are pretty much always made of polypropylene because the raw cement is so friggin' hard on any kind of rope that nothing last longer than a month or so. Rope in those sizes is expensive, so it makes sense to use the cheapest when you know you're going to have to scrap it after only a few weeks. As to the size, whereas 6" or 7" polyester would be sufficiently strong for a barge that big, it takes 7" or 8" polypro to do the same job.
But when you're coming into the dock on a fair tide landing and the eye on the dock line is no good or gone, you don't have time to put in a new splice: You tie a bowline right quick and worry about taking it out later. And in line that size, it is quite common to have to use a bit of metallic persuasion to untie even the best of knots...especially once they've 'taken a set.' ;0-)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
the eye on the dock line is no good or gone, you don't have time to put in a new splice: You tie a bowline right quick and worry about taking it out later.Oops! Yeah, no kidding.Gideon had a pretty good method of dealing with recalcitrant knots.SamT
(LOL) I think you meant 'Gordian'. (In the sailor biz, that's known as a 'Hatchet knot'.)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Yeah, Gordian. I was tiiired last night. It didn't look right but I googled Gideons knot and saw several usages, so I went with it. LOL, I saw one usage of Gordan's knot, but I knew there was an "ee-n" sound somewhere.I hope Rocky Racoon forgives me.SamT
At one point I found myself working local for an outfit called 'World Yacht', a New York-based dinner-cruise company. This was during a summer when I had some interests ashore which made me not want to ship out for a while.
One of the 'mates'--everyone there was a 'mate' if he wasn't a captain; the guy who tied up the boat and picked up the butts off the deck wore dress whites, one or two stripes, and a high-pressure hat--should have worn Velcro¯-closure sneakers because his knotting skills were so feeble that he couldn't even tie his shoes properly.
His avowed philosophy was, 'If ya can't tie a knot, tie a lot.'
Don't remember if his name was Gord but it shoulda been....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I was an ET in the Navy, but on one ship my docking station was 1st mate at #3line.The 3rd class bosuns Mate thought he should have had his own station instead of being under the Bosun.Hated me! Hated me! Hated me!SamT
3rd class bosuns Mate thought he should have had his own station instead of being under the Bosun
Ah, well, yes, the infinite knowledge only 3/c's have . . . <g>
Operate landing craft for a while. Plenty of oppertunity for 'school call' setting up lines for landing craft (heaving, mooring, anti-boraching, towing & salvage, etc.) Concurrently, more than ample oppertunity for, ah, "incentive" school call, as well.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was using the word 'mate' in the US merchie sense meaning a deck officer, not a Bosun's Mate. Chief Mate, 2nd Mate, and 3rd Mates at that dinner-boat company were basically glorified deckhands, although the 1st mate rarely handled lines if he could get away with it. The uniforms were window dressing to convince the customers they were getting their money's worth.
The company provided high-pressure hats, white uniform shirts, and soft epaulettes, altho one wanna-be Love-Boat captain with a 100-ton inland ticket ran off to KP's Ship's Store and bought himself the dress-white day jacket (the short one) and a set of hard boards. (I've got one too, but I only wore it once--to get married in, LOL.)
He wore that rig on deck once...then the port captain saw him and laughed himself silly. (The port captain was the real McCoy: Retired Chief Mate of the Cunarder Q.E. II.)
Years later, when I finally made it to the wheelhouse as chief mate (and occasional relief captain) on tugs, I still liked to sit on the towing deck smoking my pipe and sewing on whippings or putting a splice into a line when we were tied up waiting on weather or a barge to load. Whenever some former Navy guy would happen by and address me as 'Boats' I took it as a high compliment.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
For those of you LLs who are getting confused about now, when I had said that I, an ET, was "the Mate at #3 line" I was saying that I was the crewleader at the 3rd "rope" that tied up the ship to the dock.In the Navy Petty Officers are "Little Officers" and a 3rd Class Bosuns Mate is a "Little" Deck Officer compared to Dinos' "Deck Officer." I was a Technician, and a 3C Bosun outranks any rank non-deck Petty Officer at any Deck Station. A Mate in the MM is a Dept head, while in the Navy, a Mate is a Line rank, which means he could be Captain, if there were no "Big" officers left alive. "The Bosun," or the top ranked Boatswains Mate on a ship is Third down from God, second only to the Captain. My last duty station was as one of 7 Navy personel aboard an MSCS ship operating in the North Atlantic. I went thru The Canal on her.The last ship I crewed on was an Overnight Dive Boat, the captain wore shorts and a Tee and worked on his own engines, his wife ran the galley concession and I was one of two deck hands, no rank. We could sleep 50 passengers.I've always had a dream of converting an ocean going tug into a live-aboard down in the Cargoes. Aaaah, well...SamT
When I started out as a stagehand an old salty union guy explained to me that I was never to tie a "knot" - I was to tie a "bend", which as opposed to a "knot" could actually be undone at the end of the day. There is a long history of union stagehands coming down from firefighters and, even before that, from sailers, who knew the rigging in the early days. Any of you sailer guys know from "bends"?
Verrrrry good question.
A knot is now usually taken to be 'any sort of complication in a rope' (to paraphrase Clifford W. Ashley), but originally it referred strictly to what we now call 'button knots'...the sort of thing you see in fancy-work ornamenting sailors' ditty bags, lanyards, and so forth.
A bend is a temporary way of joining two ropes. I say 'temporary' because if the two ropes need to be joined permanently, splicing or seizing will do a better job of it. The commonest bend is the sheet bend (and its close cousin, the doubled sheet bend), which has the same mathematical structure as a bowline...but it is not a bowline because it's made of two separate lines whereas a bowline is a loop knot tied in the end of one line. Sometimes two bowlines--the loop of one tied through the loop of the other--are employed to do office as a bend, but this inelegant and clumsy.
A hitch is a way of attaching a rope to a rigid object, such as an anchor, spar, stay, rail, etc.... The most common hitch is the clove hitch which is also a type of 'crossing knot' (meaning you can tie one onto a stay and keep on going). Some people call an ac
Loop knots are put into the end (or sometimes the bight) of a rope to create, duh, a loop. The most common is the bowline, which is generally acknowledged as the 'king' of knots. A sailor who can't tie a bowline had better be verrrry good at chipping and painting....
A binding knot cinches down on a bundle of goods. The reef knot (also called the 'square knot' in other applications) is the most common.
The single most serious and deadly mistake one can make in knot-tying is to employ a binding knot as a bend. Ashley states that there have probably been more men killed by the misuse of the square knot (as a bend) than due to the failure of all other knots combined.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I never mastered the sheet bend and have used a modified square knot as a bend by tying the bitter ends in half hitches around the lines outside the knot. This would devolve into a Gordian knot under some circumstances, so I started to tuck the ends after the half hitches back into the loose square knot in oposite directions, leaving loops in them. So far, it's always been possible to pull those ends out, freeing the knot.The bowline is the ONLY knot to use when a putting loop in a chain. This means using two bowlines to bend chains.People freak when they see you dismantle this huge mess of a knot in a chain by simply giving it a shake and pulling on a link with two fingers. LOLSamT
Yeah, two bowlines for bending a chain together will work but I wouldn't wanna have haul the result in over the anchor windlass, LOL. Another hitch particularly good for chain is the Blackwall hitch, for hitching chain to a hook, but that only holds as long as the load is on it.
The objection to using a reef knot (or square knot; it's the same knot) as a bend is that it's a binding knot. It maintains its integrity only because of even interior pressure from the bundle it is binding. If used as a bend, the pull of the load can make the knot slip.
In addition, if you take a reef knot and pull one of the tails back against the knot hard, the whole knot will capsize and you wind up with two reversed half-hitches around the other rope...which they will slide off of immediately. That's why the reef knot is so good to use for reefing sails: when it's time to shake out the reef, you don't have to fight to untie the knot, just yank one tail and it capsizes and goes away. Your method of half-hitching the bitter ends around the standing part will work, but it's not real elegant and takes up more rope which sometimes ya don't have....
The sheet bend is easy. Make a U bend in one line and hold it in hour left hand, thumb on top of the left leg of the U. Stick the end of the other straight up through it. Now go over your thumb, back down and around under both legs of the U. Come up again and cross both legs of the U and tuck the end under its own part where it passes over your thumb.
View Image
There is nothing as good as a sheet bend for bending two ropes of different sizes together (always make the U in the larger-diameter line). You can also double it for more security:
View Image
Finally, the classic 'big rope' bend is the Carrick bend, sometimes called the 'sailors knot'.
View Image
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I now fancy the 'Surgeon's Knot' as a secure and stable binding knot. It keeps its integrity even when not under load. Seems to work best with smaller lines, say 5mm or less.
I wonder is there is anyone here (Western Breaktimers) who have experience 'throwing the Diamond'...
I don't know about "throwing the diamond" but another of those old salty stagehands could do the "bowline on the fly", which looked like he was just throwing the line into the air and it somehow magically came out as a perfect bowline. I practiced that one forever and never got it quite right.
That's a new one for me...I'll try it later. Funny how this thread is bringing out all the knot nerds.
Your friend's 'bowline on the fly' reminds me of learning to tie a bowline around my waist, with a single hand doing the work. Sort of mimicking what one might have to do if injured in very steep terrain. The bowline on a bight would be a more forgiving choice given that it provides support to both thighs and chest...but I never practiced tying that variant with one hand.
but I never practiced tying that variant with one hand.
Ah, the "survival" bowline. The premise is that you are holding the line with one hand, and needs must tie off with the other.
You can't make up a bowline on a bight one handed (I've tried, as an experiment). You can--sorta--tie a double bowline, but, it's a mess, and not the sort of thing to try while in a survical situation (like man overboard, helo rescue or the like).
Much better to make the one bowline to not lose the line (or one's self); then see about making a better rigging while at least partially secure.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Any of you sailer guys know from "bends"?
Well, Dino covered the "nouns," the verb "bend" means to fasten something, either "to" a line, or "with" a line.
So, a square sail is "bent" to its yard, by lashing the head to the jackstay. A staysail is bent to its stay by hanks. A signal flag hoist, once the pennants are made up, it bent to its halyard, so that it can be brought to the signal's hoist & trucks as it requires.
A block (at sea, a machine with one or more sheaves on an axle used to create mechanical advantage; refered to by lubbers as "a pulley"), once it is stropped (fitted with either a an iron band, or rope with eye) becomes "tackle" when it is bent to a line or spar.
Also, asea, there are footropes, man ropes, even pull ropes; but, ropes are made up of threads which are made up from yarns. Laying up three ropes yields a cable. Lay up three cables and you have a hawser--at least by the definintions of old. Whether wire or fiber, the "used" product is a "line," not a "rope" (and if you unlay a cable to have three "ropes," in use, those ropes are lines).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Ratchet straps are probably the easiest to use and even last a long time when left outside, holding the upper limbs of a 60' elm tree together for the best part of two years. I also had a tow chain for extra strength but I have had no trouble from the ratchet straps since, and they were from Harbor Freight. Cheap, came in a set of four with pickup box cleats for screwing into the stake holes on the box.
If you want to use rope, and there's really no reason not to as long as the right kind of line and knot are used, dock line is about the most durable. You can get it at any marina, boat dealer, sporting goods store, some auto parts stores and big box stores. Tie a loop on one end and if it's a pickup, get some screw-in eyes for the stake holes or install a rail for tying onto, then do the same for the other side of the box. Attach the loop to one side and loop the end of the line through the rail or eyelet on the other side. Before you tie it off, make a loop a few feet from the eyelet or rail, so the end can be passed through and used to add tension before tying an overhand knot to secure it.
This is called a "Trucker's Hitch" in the link.
Straps and double D rings (like the wide belts from the late '60s and early '70s) are easy to use, work well and are cheap. They're also used in marine situations, like tying the pontoons onto large rafts.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 8/26/2007 12:52 am by highfigh
3/16" braided nylon and polyprop mixed, will tie down just about anything.
Learn to tie extra loops in the rope, and use them as "blocks" as Junkhound suggests.
Also think about the load. Tie your load so that every force is bound. In other words, don't just tie your load 'down'. Tie it for limiting sideways motion, and front and back motion as well.
-Any- load will settle, and the ropes seem to 'stretch', when you drive a bit. So get back out after a couple miles, and cinch everything back down tight again. I guarantee you, even if yer driving through rain, if you've checked the load and re-cinched after the load had a chance to settle, you aren't going to find loose lines when you reach your destination. (This if course, depends on whether you tied the load correctly in the first place, as well. LOL)
If the load is too big or too heavy for the 3/16", go to 1/2".
I suspect I am going to be putting all my load tieing skills to work, at Junkhound's house, tomorrow.
=0)
Ye old Merchant Mariner here and having a special interest in knots. I find that I basically only use the bowline and half hitches. I used to tie down a tarp on the pickup with varying sized loads and had plenty of flapping troubles. I've found that it's a good idea to zigzag your line back and forth and when you snug it up as well as possible to add tension to the rope with bungee cords. You won't have to stop and retension the whole shebang after it gets bounced around awhile.
The type of rope should be of little importance. So should the knot.
More important is how you pack and where you run the ropes.
Ratchet straps are excellent for certain things but ropes are more versatile. And they are considerably less expensive. Besides, I enjoy working with ropes. This is the type I use and it has served me well.
First of all, it's not nylon ... it's polypropylene. Polypro does not stretch hardly at all .... and is sunlight resistant. Nylon degrades in sun, and stretches a LOT.
Ploypro is used in many marine applications because of it's sunlight, water, and chemical resistance.
A small amount of stretch can be good, helping hold knots together. Too much, and the load will shift, and knots become impossible to untie.
If you can find a braided rope, you will find it to feel 'softer,' be more flexible. and tie better ... as compared to a twisted rope.
A diameter of 1/2" is about right. The rope has enough weight to toss over a load, will not cut into the load as a finer rope would, is easier on the hands, and can still be tied reasonably well.
Other methods? Elastic nets work well, but have short lives. They lose their stretch almost immediately. If you had a good, stout poly net, lots of grommets, and some urethane (not bungee) straps, you could tie a load well, and fairly quickly.
Another approach is to use the ratcheting web binder straps.
Decent ropes can be found in rock climbing shops. Their ropes are usually enclosed in a protective braid. Another place is a place that caters to sailboats; they have all manner of ropes, in every degree of 'stretch.' It's all a matter of what you're tying down - and how much you want to spend.
Sorry if I have to correct a few factual errors in your last post, but as they are very common misconceptions, you can't really be blamed too much for believing them.
Polypro does not stretch hardly at all .... and is sunlight resistant.
First statement true; second false. Undyed polypropylene is a pale cream colour and is not sunlight (ultaviolet) resistant. The yellow dye put in the most common grade of polypro is put there specifically to slow down UV degradation. The darker the dye, the more UV resistant the polypro is...but even black polypro is still subject to UV degradation; it just takes longer.
This is generally true of all synthetic-fibre rope; but polypro is among the worst offenders. That is why it is invariably coloured.
If you can find a braided rope, you will find it to feel 'softer,' be more flexible. and tie better ... as compared to a twisted rope.
'Braided rope' covers a wide variety of cordage of many different structures and materials, and by no means is all of it soft, flexible, or easy to knot. Neither is laid ('twisted') rope, of course. There are hard or soft versions of each general type. A soft-laid three-strand Dacron¯ will be much more flexible and amenable to knotting than a Kevlar-sheath double-braid.
Decent ropes can be found in rock climbing shops.
Rock climbing shops are highly specialised rope suppliers, and the type of rope available in such shops will be among the most expensive you can buy anywhere, primarily because they are quite literally expected to save the user's life every time they are used. Such rope is ridiculously inappropriate for lashing gear to a truck, except for old, used climbing rope that is no longer safe for climbing use. If you can find one of those, that would be fine.
Rock climbers use static lines while jugging up unclimbable cliffs and overhangs, sometimes hanging hundreds of metres in the air over a void; they also expect to take falls on dynamic safety lines when they lose their grip high on a rock face while on lead or second. For a rope which can be depended upon not to let go under those conditions, they are willing to pay many times what a cargo rope is worth.
Their ropes are usually enclosed in a protective braid.
Another misconception: Climbing rope is not 'enclosed in a protective braid'; the outer braid is a structural part of the rope. Rope of this type is generally known as 'kernmantle' rope, which means it has a 'mantle' or braided sheath, over an unlaid, unbraided 'kernel' or heart. (It is not the same as marine double-braid, wherein there is a braided core as well as a braided sheath.) Note that the word 'kernmantle' is egregiously misused by many people, even supposedly knowledgeable gear salesmen in climbing shops.
There are also numerous different braiding patterns, each of which has its own characteristics, and advantages and disadvantages for certain uses.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
egregiously misused by many people, even supposedly knowledgeable gear salesmen in climbing shops.
And, sadly, in too many "boat shops," too.
Apparantly far too many think Chandler is a character on the tv show Friends.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)