What are the main advantages to hiring a Union or non-union contractor, or a sub-contractor? Around here there is only non-union in homes but union does mostly the large commercial jobs. there are VERY few union subs in our area.
What are your thoughts??
thanks
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Replies
If ALL the home builders are non-union, it suggests to me that hiring union crews and subs costs too much. You don't get that kind of unanimity just from prejudice or habit.
From working around them it seems to me that every laborer seeking advancement starts calling him/her self a carpenter. Some barely know which end of the hammer to hold and which end of nail to strike. But still they claim to be carpenters. A step up from this sort is people who are willing to learn but aren't selective about who teaches them what. This sort of OJT can be the blind leading the blind.
Unions, generally, have apprenticeship programs that are generally very good or a training program for carpenters. This provides some sort of assurance of competency for the individuals. These programs frequently are set up to polish known skills, update knowledge of changing techniques and codes and add valuable skills such as estimation and organization of crews. Union crews, often being more trained in newer techniques, will often get jobs involving unusual materials and situations because non-union crews can't handle them. A union crew will also, generally, have some hierarchy with masters directing journeymen and journeymen directing apprentices.
Union contractors have a tight handle on workmans compensation and insurance. They tend to be a long term resident of an area and are less likely to cut and run after a draw or leave you with an injury lawsuit. Most, while struggling, are well established and, being long term resident, put great stock in their reputation. Most I have worked with go to great lengths to build it right and do the right thing when dealing with even the most difficult jobs and customers.
Union contractors can often gather labor and expertise from across the nation through the local union hall. Some larger corporations prefer union contractors for their ability to get skilled hands on the job in a reasonable time.
Unions have led the way in labor. Anyone who prefers the option to work 5 days a week versus the normal six to six and a half. Get paid for overtime after 8 hours versus the old 12 to 16 hour work days. Earning a living wage versus a starvation wage. Workmans compensation versus the old throw out the injured and hire another body ethics of old. The common decency of having a relatively safe job site versus the hook and crutch club. The elimination of children, often under 8 years old, from mines and factories. Permission to have regular breaks, water on the job site and some autonomy at work. All these things are results of union organization. Many of these rights were paid for in blood and lives lost. For this reason alone you might want to consider a union contractor.
Knowing that you are supporting the union and workers rights, along with the knowledge that all the workers and their families have some protection and at least a base standard of living should be worth a few dollars. Your call.
Wow, I'm just glad you prefaced your comments with the word "generally". After having gone through the apprentice program (local 848), I am qualified to make the following observations:
1) the apprentice training programs are "generally" weeklong boondogles on the company payroll. Anyone who is familiar with these programs knows they are a series of weeklong training classes throughout your multi-year apprenticeship. You learn valuable skills, such as how to sharpen your chisels :) and properly use a skilsaw (although, in all seriousness, safety is a nothing to take lightly). So essentially, you get a bunch of young guys (and women, of course) who get to go to an offsite training facility (40 frickin miles away, when I did it) and *uck around for a week while gettin paid.
2) the on-the-job training consists of doing every grunt job imaginable because that's what all the journeymen had to do when they went through their apprenticeship, which brings me to my last point...
3) you don't learn squat from journeyman, because they are watching their backs against the next generation of guys coming up the ranks, and ultimately, you are competing against them for the next job. You alone are responsible for learning your trade... you pick up what you can by watching others, pinging the really old guys who are coasting, making your mistakes and learning from them, and doing side jobs.
Edited 8/26/2002 12:28:26 AM ET by JEFFN7
"Side jobs".............
Around here union guys are always doing "side jobs". I don't know a single union guy who doesn't do them. These are always cash jobs(can't let unemployment know about it, right?), uninsured jobs, they usually ask for money up front from the homeowner(can't risk my own money, right?). If they go on strike, what do they do? Picket line? no way-side jobs get them through.
Don't get me wrong-I've got nothing against ambition, but it seems to me that all the union guys I know like to play both sides of the street-Go Union!, but undercut that legitimate contractor when the union's not there or not looking.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
The story around here is that the union actually encourages them to do side jobs. So that there will be less work for us poor scabs!
unofficially of course!ssshhh
One Non union guy I used to work with, who is a great carp, used to brag that his picture was posted down at the local hall .. Wanted dead or alive!!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
I am strong disbeliever in unions and always will. They are so far out of touch with reality that it is a joke. I contract to the city where I live which the city has union carpenters. They hire me because they are so damn lazy it is unbelievable. Take this for instance. My billing rate is 55.00/hr and all material is marked up 35% and I still come in cheaper than there crew does. The city carpenters get union wages plus 55% of their pay in benefits. They also get 6 weeks paid vacation plus 6 weeks sick pay. A total of 12 weeks pay while sitting on their ####. I am all for making a living but there is also a point of stupidity. Where I live a city bus drive drove off the beaten path and slammed into a bus stop killing someone. The union not only got him off but he also got to keep his job. Man how absurd are the unions getting. They only protect the lazy and the not so intelligent. There may be some good carpenters in the union but they are far out numbered by idiots and ignorance.
I assume that you have met at least half of the union members to draw this conclusion. I also assume that non-union drivers and carpenters have never driven "off the beaten path". Any person in the same circumstance would have the right to legal representation. Are you saying that the union threatened or bribed the judge? Or are you objecting to the right to have a lawyer represent defendants. Is it possible that it was a mechanical defect that caused the accident?
It's working for them. These benefits are negotiated with the contractors. If your not getting enough sick or vacation time I would talk to my shop steward or attend the union meeting so that the negotiator can push your case. What local is in you area?
Would you rather work for $22/hr, minus $1/hr dues, with benefits for yourself and your family or $15 without benefits. If you were the carpenter which would you chose.
Edited 8/28/2002 12:33:41 AM ET by 4LORN1
training shmaning...
here in va. you can get tradesman training on your own, better to be sponsored, but you can do it yourself, ecept you'll have to wait for a group to start. After 4 years you hang out your shingle as "journeyman carp."no turn left unstoned
It seems to me that union supports union and non supports non. In the end there are great carpenters everywhere, and some not so great carpenters right behind them. It comes down to doing your research on who you are hiring, and union or non union, you will have a good builder working for you. I was trained in a non union outfit and couldn't have found better builders anywhere to learn from. I have worked alongside union tradespeople who were amazing. I have worked with alcoholics, drug addicts, illegal aliens, and some just plain idiots. You can find them anywhere. Some union guys won't do any job outside their scope of work, some will bust their a** all day every day. The same goes for non union.
Is one better than the other?
That's a real good question and I don't think you will ever find the answer
expense!! and i'm not entirely sure you would get a better job from the union. i was union man for 10 years, ok money, good benefits, but there just to much political nonsense that went on. and the most important factor , for me it wasnt satisfing that creative side, the majority was just go . and dont look back. now i live in new york, i know in rhode island there is a lets say a more conscience of quality, and the rank and file seemed to be..... the hell with it.. it wasnt full junkies , ex-cons, and people of the same ilk. which i found in new york. but that is just my experience
cheers bear
Around here, typical on-union labor is $28/hour. Union rates are more like $45/hour. So there's virtually zero union labor used to build homes.
The union guys typically work on prevailing wage jobs.
I don't agree with 4Lorn about union guys being better. Around here, anyone with $300 can get into the union regardless of their skill level. If they're no good, they may get shullfed around from job to job. But the non-union contractors tend to hire guys that they know will actually work.
Today I dialed a wrong number... The other person said, "Hello?"
I said, "Hello, could I speak to Joey?""... "
They said, "Uh... I don't think so... he's only 2 months old."
I said, "I'll hold."
Just a comment , here in central Illinois the city of Springfield ranks in the top five cities in the US for the LEAST expensive homes, and its not because of material or land prices. A walk on hammer swinger will start in the range of $7.00 to $9.00 an hour. In my experience i've never seen a union built home here. Most union carpenters build forms for concrete highway projects. I am pro union , thier efforts have gained benefits for all . A license program for all "carpenters" is probably the best gurantee of all around gain, and I dont mean a test that asks which end of the nail do you hit sometimes. I would like to see "Hombuilders Associations " take the lead and have every man that walks on the job have a "classification" through testing and experience........sorry "a comment" got kind of longand a lot smarter people than I am can give a better explanation but your question has been ignored for a long time thanks for asking.
Thanks, If union labor costs more, then how do they compete aginst non-union labor?? wouldent the non-union underbid them all the time??
>> ... how do they compete aginst non-union labor?
In a lot of places they don't. Like Boss Hog said, they typically work on jobs where the employer is required by law to pay the local prevailing wage. The trick is that "prevailing wage" doesn't actually mean the prevailing wage, it means the union rate.
In places where the unions are strong enough, they don't get underbid, because if they do, peoples' legs get broken and their nearly complete projects mysteriously burn down.
WOW! What a bunch of B.S. I am a union contractor engaged in quality homebuilding. My number one reason for switching to unionized labor was the fact that union carpenters ARE more experienced as well as smarter carpenters. Disagree if you want. Would a smart carpenter work for $15.00 an hr. with no benefits or ( my area ) $22.91 with full benefits? Right. I would put my three man crews up against any as far as quality, speed, and all of thee above. We are required to train 16 additional hrs. per year classroom, or we do not recieve our annual raise. My carpenters are career carpenters who own homes (nice homes), support families, drive dependable work vehicles, equip themselves with good tools, be them only hand tools, and show up every day no fail . Some of you watch too much T.V. or sit too many hours at your local tavern listening to stories about unions. If it weren't for unions, we would all, union as well as non union, be working for a dollar above minimum wage. And the big falisy about the dues, we pay $19.00 bucks a month! How many of you have a 12,000 sq. ft training facility for your employees? None! That is wher much of our dues end up, back into training. I have been on some $50 to $100 million dollar jobs as a carpenter as well as a sub contractor ( we also do commercial work ) and bottom line, no non union co. around my area could possibly have taken the job. These same carpenters are employed by me, and if you don't work in our local, you don't work period. If you want quality profesional work, go union.
would a smart carpenter have to pay kickback money out of each paycheck to some group that protects their job?
Union carps usually get a higher base pay.....union carps also have to pay union dues out of that pay.
smarter my ####. Then again...maybe I got smarter by default...as my worked union from start to retirement...then retired and became a union rep and lobby in DC.
You do seem to have the right attitude to climb the union ladder....remember to vote how they tell ya! Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Vote how they tell me, that's laughable. I am a republican by choice even thougfh the democrats view regarding union labor is more in the unions favor. I like the fact my carpenters are paid and trained well. They deserve it. I give two #### about the political end of everything, I am only interested in giving my customers the best work I can and that comes from career oriented carpenters and you find them in the union. I employed non union carpenters for 11 years to the point of total frustrstion and disappointment on my part. I leave all the non-union nailbenders to you.
66, If you pay your carpenters $22 plus benifits, then how do you compete aginst non-union?? wouldent you get underbid all the time?? Around here the non-union will build just as good a union, if they have good subs.
This is all rediculous. The Union Carpenters that I have known were good craftsman, but they were so slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwwwwwww. I am not union and make twice as much a year as a union carpenter. But I also work twice as fast and have no benefits and have to figure my own taxes so I don't know who is better off.
Around here (Atlantic Canada) all the commercial jobs tend to be Union, and the residential jobs are non-union. Discussions with the Construciton Association pointed out that in this neck of the woods, residential construction is just plain a non-union job. Always been that way. It has nothing to do with the quality of the people. Just that residential work is considered non-union.
Our reputation is solid and I do not bid residential jobs, I build cost plus. We are known for the custom log homes we build (www.pinnaclecustomloghomes.com).
Im sure you build a good product. Around here there are many contractors that are NOT union. These contractors build commercial as well as residential. Many have a very good reputation for quality. I dont understand how the Union contractor can compete aginst the non-union for the same job. OR how does a Union electritian compete aginst a non-union electritian for the same job.
in my town some of those dues go into an account for "target money" ...
They call it a 'stabilisation fund' here....the money gets docked from every paycheque, and used to subsidise the difference between the union and non-union price.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I earned my Journey card as a construction millwright in the seventies when times were good. We were (and presumably still are) an arm of the Carpenters and Joiners. Our pay in 1978 was over $15 an hour (times were good), but if your only getting $22 or $23 now, you haven't fared well against inflation. (A union Registered Nurse does better than that!).
I worked on big projects with a lot of carps around...some were good and had a good work ethic; some were hacks or lazy or both.
The best carpenter craftsman I've ever known was a self-taught pasty-faced peacenik hippy carpenter who just had the touch.
I remember one aspect of union jobs...lots of inter-trade turf battles. When you're independent, you can do it all within the puview of your license.
A big factor in the outcome of a building project is the competence and expectations of the oversight.
I was circumcized when I was 3 days old; I was unable to walk for over a year.
Like that tag line!
I think it's really hard to generalise about the union. Personally, I'm all for the principles. I'm also almost all against what I see happening; one of my best friends was vice president of the local, and we've fought this out in the mud many times; another friend is the president. I've almost signed up several times, and then they go and do something that drives me nuts, like burning a building. I've got friends in the plumbers and electricians union, same thing. It also seems regional. The local here has a lot of good people driving it; back where I'm from, what I saw was a horror show.
The union does offer great training (we have a strong community college/apprenticeship system that does the basic training, and the union does specialised stuff). I know here they have a real problem getting people to take it. Skill wise, two of the best carps I've worked with were union, so were most of the very worst hacks, including one guy that a union crew, looking for bodies for a utility job, hired on: the union (this is in Ontario) made him a third year apprentice that friday afternoon, made journeyman Monday morning. He owned one estwing hammer, that was it. For industrial work, the union guys have the experience; for commercial, in my experience, it's a toss up. You may get a good union crew, you may be sending guy after guy back tothe hall. You may get a topnotch non-union crew that gets it done,or they may be hacks too. For high end residential, I don't know many union guys with those skills. But it may be different elsewhere.
Monnlighting: way of life here. Bitch about the non-union guys, and moonlight for $100 a day.
My favorite union story,then I'll shut up: we were doing a government contract back in Ontario (I was in a millwork shop). We were installing....conference rooms, lots of multiple pocket doors. Three union carps on site, and we were there too because things were behind. Some of the pocket door hardware hadn't been screwed off, and the drywall was up. We had two women on our crew, and lots of skinny cabinetmakers....any of them could have just squeezed into the pocket, driven the screws, end of problem. But that's caprenters work, soooo.....these were big guys. They took the one with the smallest gut....not that small. They (all three were on this) stood him beside the drywall, scribed around his belly with a pencil, then cut out the drywall so he could move in to drive the screws, then the three of them fixed the drywall.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
After dismissing the entire whinny irrelevant BS stated above, which intern does nothing but illuminate your poor attitude, the decision here on a carpenters standpoint seems to be a no brainer.
In Chicago the union scale is $30/hr. plus a Putnam Investments pension / annuity fund and full family medical all for the ridiculous price of $40 a month in dues. (Side note: Have you priced family medical lately?)
Or the brighter ones in the bunch can opt for plan B that is a whopping $12 to $15 an hour non-union…nothing else follows. Ops I almost forgot, and no stinking union dues.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
ok another question. How can the Union set an hourly wage and demand that the contractor pay it?? I thought it was up to the Contractor as to how much he can pay his men. If the union wants the men to get $25/hr and the contractor cant afford to pay that and still be competitive, who wins?? It seems like the union has to much power.
Or you can join an open shop that belongs to an association of contractors, providing all the benefits and decent wages, but without the pressure from the union bureaucracy....this is one version operating in my region http://www.meritns.com/index.htmlcabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
I've always worked non-union, high end residential, was getting 22 an hr @ 26 yrs old in late eighties. except a two week stint doing a hospital on a crew doing doors & hardware- crew was almost out of material, truck full of door shows up, we were not allowed to unload the truck because we were all carpenters- didn't have any laborers - I had to send the truck away, as well as the carpenters since we had installed everything we could...
While I recognize the importance unions have had in our history, I am quickly believing they should BE history. I have seen and heard of too many union foul-ups to trust them much. From incompetence, to fights, to racketeering, to mafia involvment. Their stupidity is killing Philly's travel& tourism industry. Someone mentioned in sarcasm that the union bribed the judge to get the driver off the hook. Such things are not uncommon here - do a search on our Roofers Union in the late-mid 80s.
Philly built a state of the art convention center just 8? years ago. This was supposed to be the saviour of our travel and tourism industry. New hotels were built to support A study released just a few months ago showed that of large conventions that were held here in the recent past (past 12 months?), only 15% said they would definitely come back. 35% said they definitely would NOT come back, and the number 1 reason given was labor costs and relations. The cost issue is from a study, I believe last fall, which showed that a typical large convention in Philly costs 30% more than a comparable unionized venue elsewhere, i.e., without any need to adjust for regional cost differences. As for the labor relations issue, the work rules are now horrendous - and that's an improvement over say, three years ago. Vendors/conventioneers are not allowed to set up their own displays. A rough example - maybe slight exaggeration, but only slight, according to news accounts: Your display is contained within a set of 10 containers. You need a crew of three Teamsters to unload the truck they sit in. A crew of four Laborers moves the crates from loading dock to show floor, and unpacks them. A crew of four Carpenters must be the ones to assemble the display. If there is any computer/TV/electronic media involved, a crew of two Electricians must set that equipment up - you can't even plug in your own mouse or keyboard. If you have signs to be hung, congratulations, you can pay for a dedicated crew of three Riggers. Oh, and to supervise all this activity, you have to pay for someone to coordinate all the unions. After all, fistfights between rival unions are not uncommon. Also keep in mind, the coordinator will not actually expedite the assembly of your booth. He is there only to make sure one union does not do another's work. If the carpenters don't show up for three hours, well, your display waits for three hours.
I realize the example above is conventions, not construction. My brother works for the Eagles, and the stories he told me from when their practice facility was being built are worse.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
That's interesting Mr. Pita. It's diametrically opposed to my experience. As an exhibitor at the Philadelphia Furniture and Furnishing's Show in '99, I have to tell you I found none of the obstructive and petty work-to-rule types that you enumerated, but things might have changed in the last year or two. My routine was to arrive at the convention centre door with my van load of furniture and other bits and bobs, drive right on in, open up the back door of the van. The Nagging Queen and I unload our assorted crap into the aisle. Nagging Queen hangs about with the furniture and stuff whilst I go and park the van on a side street at $10 an hour. I walk back into the convention centre to find the carpet guy finishing off his business, and we sling our stuff into the booth, hang up our sign, have a pleasant natter with a passing chippy who was interested in the design of the furniture, the joinery and other stuff, and then he helps me haul a piece into my booth. Then we have a wee blather with a spark who'd been sent along to make sure the lights we'd orderedd were working as we wanted,..... and he helped me rearrange a couple of sticks, and me and the NQ were off for an exploration of Philadelphia, the bars, the curry shops, and so on. Nary a hint of bother from any of the trades. But that's just my experience. Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
Glad to hear your experience was much better. I must admit, I've only been to the convention center a few times, always as a visitor. The "story" I related was compiled from memory of several reports that have been on the news recently. I'm not sure the current status, but our mayor, governor, and other big-wig types are trying to work a deal with the unions to reduce costs and simplify rules. They're talking about some form of a "consolidated" union to avoid all the crap.
BTW - you bahstid! You were in Philly and didn't let me treat you to a Guiness (or your beverage of choice)? Of course, you did say '99, and I think I was just discovering this place then. If you come back, let me know.If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
We didn't 'know' each other in early May '99, Mr. Pita when I did the Philly show, so I couldn't have called you. And it was right after that show that I hooked up to the internet and started haunting the Taunton forums to bad effect, and others, under a bunch of aliases. Still, if I'm ever back in Philadelphia, I'll either email you personally (assuming your email address is available here via clicking on your name,---unlike mine, which isn't, and mine, by the way, can be found with a little ingenuity) or I'll put out a general alarm to Philadelphians to hide their virgin women [both of them] children, and their assorted gullible helpful types, and imbeciles, because I'll be in the area, and then you can buy me a beer or seven, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
Hey Im gonna report you guys to my rep Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
While you're at it have him show you how to use the spellcheck button.
Dan before you dismiss somebody else I think you need to check what you are saying in your post.
I am a non union carpenter in the city of Chicago. The going rate for carpenters here that are union is now, to the best of my knowledge, 31.40 an hour for commercial and 31.10 for residential.
Non union rates vary and can go as high as 50 to 60 an hour if your are doing high end stuff, not 12 to 15 an hour.
I am thankfull you point out mistakes or stupid actions taken by union carpenters, we all know non union carpenters are mistake free. When I was non union, you can't imagine THE STUPIDITY I ENCOUNTERED. I had one jerk off who nailed the risers to the tops of the stair treads, flat down with 16s. Why? I told him they went on above the treads. I also ( pre union ) had a supposed carpenter cut all our 2x12 bearing headers for the first floor (many) of a home the size of the doors, he made the 2-8 door headers, 2-8. Also had a carp put hangers between attic storage trusses upside down and many on the wrong side of the x. They were, however, installed into sothern yellow pine with 16s, very solid and funto take out. Many more examples upon request. I understand you get bad apples in any group, but since going union my site mishaps have dropped to almost nill. As far as our area is concerned, the better guys are union and you don't see much slacking. If you do, It's on the foreman.
Like I said, it seems to be regional.....exact opposite anywhere I've worked, with exceptions. There are always exceptions. I know really solid guys in UBCJ, IBEW, and the plumbers union that I trust and I know work hard; we all know there are hacks, and they are often the first to provide examples. If you want to trade 'stupid' stories, we could go on all day. Same with war stories about union tactics and attitudes. BTW, I live in what is probably the strongest union region in Canada, part of the Island called Industrial Cape Breton....union work is protected by a special law, and pro-union sentiment goes back to the early days of coal and steel here, when people died for the union.
Bottom line for me is, if the union wants people to pay a premium for a union carpenter....and it is a premium, at least in many places....the client has to get better bang for the buck. That means well trained, productive people, and I wish I saw more of that happening....and I've already stated that I think the union itself does a really good job about providing those opportunities (they ran a scaffolding course outside my shop last year, for example, the high tech stuff....they did one pretty huge build and toured my students through it....good on them, and it was a bonus for my students). I KNOW they have a hard time getting people into courses, or to complete their apprenticeship blocks, because my buddy was their training coordinator. It's more than worth it to me to sign up just to get access to that training...if only I didn't have to put up with the strongarm ####. There's a situation going on here now, same old....my wife is driving towards a probable picket line at her work right now.
I didn't start off critical of the union, and I believe in a lot of the principles, respect some of the gains they've made for all of us, and wish it worked better. I've been pushed into these opinions.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
LEDEBUHR1 – The hourly wage is set in contract negotiations, much the same as the baseball ordeal.
ADRIAN – From the tone of prior posts it seems like you are dealing with a lot of regional shenanigans from your local union, i.e. burning buildings and such. So if this “open shop” concept works for you and takes care of your family more power to you and I wish you all the luck in the world. I just didn’t have to deal with any of the so called political strong arm union propaganda stated above for the ten plus years I spent in the trades since leaving two years ago in pursuit of a computer science degree. I provided for my family under whichever economic scheme was more lucrative as a whole and here in Chicago that happened to be the union.
CLAY – I apologize if you felt dismissed, I know a lot of hard working skilled carpenters from family to friends and while most can talk a good game of BS none make $125,000 a year “swingin’ a hammer” eight hours a day. I always get a kick out of this, so don’t misconstrue my humbleness with arrogance but a piece of wood, trim, flooring etc. cut at 38 5/8th and nailed in a so called “high end” house verses a “low end” doesn’t know the difference. I have always taken pride in my work whether it be in a 10 million dollar yuppie three flat in the Lincoln Park area or a 150,000 dollar starter home in the burbs. Again, I have not received a union pay check for a couple of years now and my numbers were meant to be ballpark, because you have adjusted the union scale I would be willing to juice the non as well to reflect accordingly at the commercial rate – $13.40 to $16.40 <LOL>. I want to say I remember my brother discussing their contract negotiations which reflect another two dollar an hour raise on the check for 2003. Good luck in all your endeavors!
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right
i 'm with your opinion, corruption was a big problem with me . the guy with the 300.00 dollar jogging outfit would show up, to hand out the checks and there would be mysterious deductions. so i "crowed" about that to the union rep, he told me we're gonna have to live it with on this job. so i figured he had a piece of my paycheck too. the union at least around my neck of the woods, will constantly screw them selves out of work . i have heavy disdain for them . theoretically there the way to go, for the working man. but....... personally with hardwork, commitment to the best job you know how, you can do just as well if not better. there alot of brainwashing that goes in the rank and file. that i know first hand cheers bear
Earlier this year the union electrical contractor I work for was trying to land a large grocery store remodeling contract from the general contractor who already had the job.The general said our price was good but he needed help with another project he had going and wanted us to "consult" with the non-union electrical contractor who he had hired on a large housing development with a "community" building in the center.The community building was masonary construction with a gymnasium,offices, kitchen and daycare facility.The non-union contractor was one of the largest ones in our area.
When I got to the site,the housing units were going OK,but at the community building the block walls were already up, ready for bar joists, and the electrical contractor had put NO electrical boxes in the walls.Neither he nor his 4 employees on the job knew that you work with the bricklayers as the walls go up.He said someone told him you could fish the walls later with PVC pipe.After talking with him for an hour and looking at the prints he asked if my apprentice and I could lay out all the walls for boxes and show his guys how to cut them in with a grinder/diamond wheel,fish sealtight in and mud the boxes in solid.He admitted that neither he nor any of his employees had ever done a fire alarm system like the one required,or an ansul sytem for the kitchen hood,or much with HVAC controls, electric doorlocks for the daycare center, etc...He really had no idea how far in over his head he actually was.
So I did my best to give this guy a plan on how to recover,and I worked with his guys for a couple of days.Whenever the owner left the job his guys came to a screeching halt. They'd say " He's only paying us 12 bucks an hour,and the union contractors bid it at 25,so screw him...." I guess they missed the point that they had run the job into the ground so badly that their boss was going to get screwed even at 5 bucks an hour.
And a funny thing happened one day.Just like Jeff Buck says, the union organizer eventually shows up (union emblems on the golf shirt and windbreaker) and wants to know how things are going.As soon as his car pulled up one of the non-union employees said "Here comes John ---- again wanting to sign us up". I asked him if he had any interest in joing the union and he told me " No ,I'm not giving back my paycheck in union dues !"(Jeff, you'd have been proud). I told him that by making scale at 27.33 an hour and "giving back" 5% in dues he would still be making twice as much plus getting health care and pension benefits.But he didn't want any part of the union.
I have my own problems with union politics too, but, from what I see, on the jobs I'm on, there's no substitute for the level of experience and training that union contractors provide for their employees.If you disagree from where you sit,so be it.
Barry
Get a union carpenter in my area and he or she would get laughed off the job showing up with hand tools consisting of tin snips and a magnetic level.
66,
Glad to meet you. Right up front, I'm non-union for most of the reasons these guys have mentioned.
But in light of the numberous problems this industry has created for itself with poor installations and bad building science applications through the past thirty years, it seems that the educational opportunities and apprenticeship programs could do a lot for the young guys and the industry. That's in theory.
Generally speaking though, it seems like there is a lot of variance in the unions practices and quality of production. I'm glad you are in a good place but most aren't so great for unions and union guys in carpentry.
To the original Q - checking references and history of the builder will tell you more than checking for a union lable.Excellence is its own reward!
Hey nails -
Didn't realize anyone on this board was that close. Do you live in Springfield? I'm in Carlinville - About 45 miles south on route 4.
Just curious.......................
He who laughs last, thinks slowest.
Hey Boss I live between New Salem State Park and Petersburg. My usual southern boundry is Virden to Jacksonville . Was in your town receintly great old homes. Got to watch out for Curry at various times. Be kind to yourself and keep postin.
Heck, you gotta be from the area if you know about the Curry trucks. Maybe they're getting better - They haven't killed anyone this year that I know of.
I'm curious what company you work for. I worked for Truss/Slater for 10 years, and now work for Rehkemper. You can email me if you don't want to discuss this further in "public".
[email protected]
In some cultures, what I do would be considered normal.
Edited 8/27/2002 10:44:08 AM ET by Boss Hog