We intend to put down wide plank pine flooring in our barn renovation project, so I have read many of the archived threads on the subject. Since I recently fell into a load of T&G PANELING, I am wondering if this material could be installed as flooring (“upside down”, so the seams fit tight) instead? The boards are all new, but were milled and planed about 3 decades ago and have been stored in a dry shed ever since. They do not have relief kerfs. I have a variety of widths from 6″ to 11″, and planned to install by face nailing. Any thoughts on whether this would be appropriate?
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Sounds like it would work fine, no back relief needed. Shallow saw kerfs can help if the boards are cupped. What specie mare we considering?
Thanks for the reply. I do not know what species it is, but it seems that red or white pine is the most common around here. If this project is do-able, then I have a couple more questions.
1) I was told these boards were NOT kiln dried, but they have been stored in a shed for 30 years. I was also told that air dried wood has a greater likelihood of shrinking and cupping because the "pores are not closed". Any thoughts? Would it be worthwhile to have the wood kiln dried? I have a month before I am ready to install, so I could stack them in the building, with spacers, to acclimate.
2) I would like to put a stain on the boards- a light oak color- to darken them up. If I apply the stain after the floor is down, and gaps develop, would I have visible unstained areas showing up? Alternately, if I stain them beforehand to cover the edges, then the stain will be removed when I go over it with the sander...what is the best approach here?
2) I wanted to use a linseed oil finish on the boards, as it seems about as non-toxic as you can get. Is this going to increase the likelihood of wood movement compared to a poly finish?
thanks
Shawn
Edited 4/20/2009 7:38 am ET by shawncal
Kiln dried is not necessary, but dry is. The fact that they were in a shed doesn't mean they are dry. Damp evenings, cool days, humidity all will provide moisture for the wood to absorb.
So, yes, sticker the wood inside in a conditioned space, at least two weeks, with fans blowing on it.
Unless you do this in the dead of winter it is still going to gap some.
If you use a thin stain it will soak into the joints well. I doubt that you'll have problems.
Choice of finish won't affect wood movement much, remeber you're only coating the top.
Rich
Yep, been done plenty. Also referred to as "V-match" pine. After 30 years in a shed, you'll want to make sure there's no creepy-crawlers in it though.
shawn
Please understand pine is a soft material and will wear extremely quickly unless a great deal of care is used to protect it..
By that I mean No Shoes on the floor,, no pets, no dragging furniture, floor protecters under all point loads (those padded cups to set furniture legs on etc.)
At that the finish will not be extremely durable. So use a finish that can be easily touched up with out showing (ask and I'll tell you)
Sure, I'd like to know what you recommend. I'm also curious about the 'sealing issue"- after looking through previous posts on the subject there doesn't seem to be a consensus on whether to seal both faces or just the top, or in what to use as a sealer/finish.
any thoughts are appreciated.
ShawnShawn
OK shawn
Here's the 411 on shellac.. there is an extremely easy way to do this and it doesn't require mixing flakes with denatured alcohol.. Plus it's a lot cheaper than mixing flakes with alcohol..
Go buy a gallon of Zinsslers Bulls eye.. and 2 gallons of denatured alcohol.. I know it's more than recommended but there is a real trick to shellacing something..
Shellac dries insanely fast.. so fast that you should never ever go back over something! If you do it leaves ridges and looks poor..
OK mix the 2 gallons of denatured alcohol together with the gallon of Zinssler's bulls eye and give it a brief stir..
The best way to apply shellac is with the flood it on approach. This flood it on approach makes the floor self leveling and makes you look like the worlds best painter (I'm about the worlds worst) Just flood it on and spread it out. Careful not to go back over anything.. If you miss a spot, skip it and get it with the next coat..
The first coat will dry enough to walk on in 15 minutes..then you take that 3M sanding sponge (220 grit) you bought and give the floor a real lick and promise type sanding.. about a second to a second and a half per square foot.. all you want to sand is the remove the nubs that are raised by the shellac (normal) don't try to"fix" any imperfections.. shellac melts each coat when you apply the second coat so your efforts will be wasted.. just sand off the nubs that get raised..
Now wipe off the white residue that is left and flood on the second coat.. Remember to spread it as quickly as possible. No carefull dabbing.. just big swipes as fast as you can. Don't go back over anything! This coat will dry in a half hour. (each coat takes twice as long to dry) I double check after the second coat to see if there are any areas that I missed the nubs if so just go ahead and sand those areas off same kind of lite sanding.. just in the areas you may have missed.
I try to give the floor 3 coats maybe 4, too thick isn't better.
Now the really good news.
Shellac is safe.. you've been eating it on pills and candy all of your life.. It's biodegradeable,, renewable, and nonalergenic..
Don't bother cleaning your brush/applicator let them dry out and next time you need to apply shellac let them soak for a little while in the shellac and they will soften right back up and be perfect.. shellac that lands on your clothes washes right out. same with shellac on your hands in you hair and on your face (I told you I'm the worlds worst painter) just wash with soap and water..
While the fumes have the potential to be dangerous they really aren't. Alcohol mixes with the moisture in the air to become far less volitile than it would appear plus to "explode" shellac fumes have to be in the perfect perportion. Too rich and they won't, too lean and they can't.
Shellac is far less volitle than most floor finishes, however all but a small percentage of the fumes are alcohol more than twice as high a proof as wiskey or scotch. (100 proof is 50% alcohol) so you will inhale enough to maybe cause a problem with a breathalizer (I don't know for sure, pure speculation)
I apply it with a window open unless it's the dead of winter.
Denatured alcohol is drinking alcohol except for 2% of something to make it not fit to drink.. that 2% can be a variety of things depending on who's packaging it. (none of them nice)
Color
Shellac comes in two colors from Zinsslers blonde and amber.. Blonde will darken somewhat over clear but in doing so will bring out the grain in a most beautiful way.. it really makes the wood "POP" Amber on the other hand is darker more orange.. on a pine wood you might think it's too dark.. the darkest shellac is garnet you need to mix flakes to achieve that and right now flakes are more than twice as expensive as Zinssler is..
Do try just appling shellac, you might be extremely pleased with the results I know I sure am..
Wear and tear..
shellac is a really tough finish.. My 150 pound dog hasn't damaged it in the past 3+ years. If he did I'd simply take a rag soak it with denatured alcohol and rub briskly (If children are present I say abra cadbra! scratch-be-gone!)
and poof the scratch is gone. If something does get damaged rub denatured alcohol on the area to remove the shellac and reapply new shellac.. it will blend together to make an invisable repair..
Water
shellac once really dry will withstand water for hours however if left too long shellac will eventually turn white. Then simply repair it as I decribed..
Alcohol or beer.. wipe up quickly and no damage will result.. if you poor single malt scotch and leave it you will have to repair the finish and then explain to scotch drinkers why you're wasting good scotch. Beer & wine& mixed drinks are only 15 proof typically and that means it's about 7 1/2 % alcophol and the rest water etc.. so you've got more time..
Don't use ammonia based cleaners on shellac that will disolve them.. If you screw up simply reapply shellac from the start.. no sanding required..
Oops, sorry.
paint brushes. Use either a wide barn painting brush or better still buy a lambswool applicator and do it standing up.
Edited 4/20/2009 4:14 pm ET by frenchy
Wow, that's great info Frenchy. I will give it a try on some sample material.
Do you have any pics of your finished floors. I'm curious how much darker it looks.
If the water repellency is good and it is easy to repair, how would it be as a finish on pine table tops and bar tops (my next project, once the floors are done!)?
Thanks,
shawnShawn
Shawn
Yes there are already pictures posted here,, go over to the the advanced search function and enter 85891.1& 86920.13 & 94941.1 scroll through there and you'll find them.. however you won't find how dull the black walnut looked before it was shellaced.. you propbably will have to look at some raw black walnut first..
Shellac really pulls the natural beauty out of wood.. As you probably know it's used for almost all antique restorations of wood products since it puts out such a deep rich finish without the plastic look so common with modern finishes..
If you want to go to insane degree of silliness you might french polish the shellac for a depth and richness of shine second to none.. however as easy as it is to shellac things it's a zillion times harder to french polish shellac.. I'm only slightly kidding when I tell you the amount of effort required to french polish a floor is likely enough to set you off your rocker..
(but wow would it ever be awesome)
As for water repelliancy, My air conditoner up in my billard room overflowed and leaked water onto the floor. when I discovered it the puddle was several feet across and had been their for hours.. I wiped it up with towels and that was it.. (well except for one spot that was dust free) <grin>
However if left there much longer it's likely the shellac would have turned white which meant I would have had to wipe off the white shellac and reapply the coats.. Good news is that it would have blended in seamlessly and made an invisable repair..
There are finishes that will stand up better to water but none as easy to repair..
Use that as your judgement as to it's suitablity for table tops and bar tops..
I know I've come to completely rely on shellac over any finish except what I do outdoors..
Thanks for the advice and comments over several posts. I ended up face-screwing the plank flooring, then filling the c-bored holes with mahogany plugs. I sanded down the works, then applied 3 coats of shellac, per your alcohol dilution method. I mixed 1 part amber into 4 parts clear shellac to richen it up a bit. I applied it with a with a wide applicator pad (looks like a broom) and did get some 'marks' where my strokes ended (I think I applied it to thick on the first coat and couldn't wipe it out with subsequent coats due to the amber tint it left behind). But all-in-all it looks nice and next time I will do it perfectly!Shawn
way cool! It looks great! Glad to hear another person happy with the method I used.
Non toxic and easy to repair finish fits the description of shellac. I'm astounded that Frenchy replied but referred to it obliquely without naming it :)
Another thing...use an amber or garnet shellac and that might darken it up enough for you thus saving you from having to stain the wood. Try it on some samples.
Edited 4/20/2009 9:41 am ET by MGMaxwell
I'm assuming you are talking about flakes that you mix up yourself. I've heard of this, but never done it. If so, where do you purchase them and what do you mix them with, I'd like to experiment with it.Shawn
You can buy the flakes at a Woodcrafter store or from catalog sources. Shellac can also be purchased already disolved at big box stores. When Frenchy reads this he will give you details on its uses and virtues. He is right about it being non toxic and one of the easiest finishes availableIt's mixed with denatured alcohol which is also available at bbs along side the other solvents.
Zinsser's BIN is a commonly used shellac, available at most paint stores.
Thin the first coat with an equal part of denatured alcohol (1/2 BIN and 1/2 alcohol).
Make absolutely sure there are no pilot lights (stove, furnace, water heater, etc..) burning because the fumes are extreemly combustable.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
Ted W
I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm correcting you, however you should know that shellac isn't as combustable as most floor finishes,
here's why..
What is flamable in shellac is the alcohol..
alcohol is the one fire you should put out with water!
Most other flamable liquids will simply spread with water splashed on them. Alcohol will go out.. It absorbs the water moleculeand that prevents flame.
So any moisture in the air (humidity) will be absorbed by the fumes of the evaporating alcohol making it less likely to "blow UP"
IN addition alcohol is extremely difficult to ignite.. That's why dragsters that use alcohol have those massive double magnetos to get it ignited.. (they really put out a welding quality spark) the range alcohol will ignite at is real limited. Too lean or too rich and it won't ignite.. It's very difficult to get the fuel air mixture just right.. So while it's possible it's also possible to get dust to blow up, just not very common..
Do take precautions but understand the risks are less than you've presented..
hehe... I don't mind at all, Frenchy. I'm the first to admit I don't know it all and always open to learning something new. So to you I say Thanks!
But on the other hand, I hope you don't mind if I'm not tempted to test that theory when I have a whole floor of wet shellac down. =)~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!