Using wood on the exterior is not green
I live next door to a neo traditional neighborhood that bans hardie Plank and has only 5% brick homes. the rest are wood. 10 years old. all are lap planked with wood except the stucco (over wood) ones. MAny have already been repainted , many have had the stucco removed, many 300 or so wooden spindeles on the porch railings.
All the car trips for the workers , more and more paint and tons of caulk, all to be repeated in another 8 years- thats not green , compared to fiber cement.
Replies
Lasting forever doesn't make something "green". The plastic in our landfills lasts forever. Nuclear waste lasts almost forever.
Cement has very high embodied energy and greenhouse gas contributions.
Few building materials are more renewable and "green" than locally-sourced wood.
They should have stained the siding instead of painting. Much less maintenance.
But at least it keeps the local economy humming - and that's "green".
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
ed... riversong could care less... he is not the one who is going to maintain your house
me ?... i'm with you.. fibercement, vinyl clad windows, everything i can think of to make my customers homes more maintenance free... or at the least ....low-maintenanceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You bet.
Build your houses entirely of plastic. Can't be greener than that!
lemme guess... you use wood windowsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
http://www.carpenters.org/carpentermag/7803/TrdTlk78_03.pdfI guess wood siding installations start when the builder/foreman ordered the lap siding. Its delivered ("selected" at the yard by yard employees- and installed. On Houses I see frequently there are a few cracks/splits in the wood on the day of installation. No painting before installation.
Usually in a day or so the installed siding is painted- this quickly covers up the bad knots and the splits, until the house can be sold. They will reappear in 6 months or so or on real hot days/
Edited 3/1/2008 1:10 pm ET by edwardh1
<<Lasting forever doesn't make something "green". The plastic in our landfills lasts forever.>>Depends on whether you WANT it to last forever or you're using it to fill a dumpster. Embodied energy only matters IN REAL LIFE when the lifespan - and maintenance - of the material is factored in.~Splintie, Hardie fan....well, except for the asbestos bit...
Embodied energy only matters IN REAL LIFE when the lifespan - and maintenance - of the material is factored in.
I don't have a clue what you mean by "real life".
But the lifecycle cost of a material includes the ultimate disposal (or recycling) cost to the environment.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
You speak of embodied energy as though it's a static amount for each item, as though you can go to a table and pull off a figure that applies to all concrete, all wood, all brick; that's risable. You'll have a bit more accuracy than predictions about global warming, but not much. If you have to paint wood every few years, are you adding in that cost, or hiding it in a separte column called "embodied energy of paint" in order to claim your wood is 'greener'? If the only reason i ever have to paint my Hardie is that i'm bored with the color, that is "real world" accounting.I could carry all my scraps from my Hardieplank in one armload when i got done with my house. That seems like a pretty small price to pay compared to the advantage of it staying on my house for a few decades nearly maintenance-free.
Edited 2/23/2008 7:38 pm by splintergroupie
You speak of embodied energy as though it's a static amount for each item
Not at all. But the initial embodied energy IS a fixed and determinable amount. And that includes both the direct embodied energy of final transport and application and the indirect embodied energy of extraction, manufacture, and transport throughout the production cycle.
Then there's the recurring embodied energy due to maintenance and replacement over the usable life of the building.
Then there's the operating energy which may or may not be affected by the use of various high or low embodied energy materials.
And then, as I've made quite clear (though you choose to ingore it), there are the overall life-cycle costs of any material or method, of which embodied energy is only one factor. Durability is certainly an important factor as well as recyclability or reuse, as are solid wastes, air and water pollution, and other environmental "externalities".
Additionally, there are aesthetic values, social impact, and economic impacts to the local and global community, as well as to the broader biotic community.
A primary measure of sustainability is the use of locally-produced, renewable resources. In a forested state like Vermont, most homes are sided with wood (though upscale second homes are sometimes using fiber cement). This supports the local economy (we have two of the nation's three radial sawn clapboard mills within 15 miles), and the ongoing maintenance also helps sustain local tradespeople.
Fiber cement siding and trim is not an unreasonable choice, but all the factors should be considered in determining what is the most "green" as well as most appropriate for the locale.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 2/23/2008 10:43 pm ET by Riversong
Well, i like the word 'sustainable' a bit better than 'green' as being more descriptive, but it doesn't get us around the problem of the process of addition become too unwieldy to manage, a point YOU seem to be glossing over. In other words, while the embodied energy amount is theoretically fixed for each material from cradle to landfill, it seems to be more often NOT determinable with enough precision to matter in a real-life choice between two products. As you say, using local wood supports the local economy and maintenance gives employment to the local workers, but i have to question if scraping wood and breathing toxic fumes is the highest use of human effort. The week per year not spent repairing/painting siding can be used to help a friend, read Dostoevsky, plant a butterfly garden, or not have to work through an illness. Spending one's time creatively and regeneratively is one thing; make-work is quite another. Make-work is the most ungrateful response i can imagine to the gift of consciousness and ability we humans possess. I'm fairly surprised you would present this wastage of human effort as a good reason to select an inferior product reqiring increased maintenance, considering waste is anathema to you. How is that idea any different from proposing it's better to buy from far away bec it provides employment for drivers and gas station attendants?
the problem of the process of addition become too unwieldy to manage...
We could have a more productive discussion if you'd express yourself more clearly.
The "process of addition"? I thought we all learned that in grade school.
While there is a range of numbers for the embodied energy of materials, depending on which factors were included, the comparisons between materials are valid.
but i have to question if scraping wood and breathing toxic fumes is the highest use of human effort.
You reap what you sow. If you use solvent-based paints, that's what you get.
Using latex-based stains is almost toxin-free and eliminates the need to scrape when refinishing.
I'm fairly surprised you would present this wastage of human effort as a good reason to select an inferior product...
Some folk consider the time invested in stewarding their resources to be both time well spent and ultimately satisfying.
It's not the "product" which is "inferior" but the installation. Wood framed and sided houses have lasted hundreds of years, even with minimal maintenance.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
The "process of addition"?
I meant adding up the subcategories of the cost of your product. Consider just the first steps for procuring wood: logging - whether skidders or highlead or helicopter methods used, whether the slope affects siltation of the stream and hence the cost to the fisheries and the knock-on effect to the recreation industry, the cost of replanting, the success rate of the replanting, thinning, fire-fighting, road-building, road-unbuilding, the cost of writing an EA, devising a logging plan, the court battles against the enviros who want absolutely no wood cut, the time of year as it affects the ground, the habitat lost to some species but gained for others...and a million things besides.
ADD the cost of transportation, milling (old mill or efficient mill?), labor (exploited, low-wage workers in WV or unionized in CA?), medical costs to debilitated workers (logging has an extremely high rater of accidents). ADD in a few dozen other variables just in that one step and as i said, the cost may be finite, but not calculable.
Any table that attempts to accurately reflect all costs will present such a range of numbers as to make comparisons INVALID. Any table that claims to make valid comparisons isn't being realistic about the inputs. That's addition....the post-grade school version.
Using latex-based stains is almost toxin-free and eliminates the need to scrape when refinishing.
A latex stain forms a film layer, unlike a penetrating oil based. They wear out rather quickly and look crappy on the way to the end of their natural life in 2-8 years, and in any case, are hardly environmentally benign. I'm 4 years into my Hardieplank being painted and it looks like the day i first did it, plus a bit of bird poo.
Some folk consider the time invested in stewarding their resources to be both time well spent and ultimately satisfying.
You haven't shown you've stewarded your resources well at all, not the material ones and esp not the human ones. In fact, you've created a comparative maintenance monkey on your back.
Some folk consider time spent in improvement of one's self, community, or environment to be a higher calling than scraping an inanimate object and slapping chemicals on it. To each her own.
Wood framed and sided houses have lasted hundreds of years, even with minimal maintenance.
I like that place . Where is it?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
The Internet...Google Images. <G>
Embodied energy - which is what you at first questioned - is a relatively simple measure of the fuel energy inputs to the production cycle of a material. And it's a valid and useful metric to consider, particularly when comparing materials designed specifically to save energy: ratio of energy consumed to energy saved, and payback period.
Then, once I pointed out that there were a myriad of other "externalities" and environmental and social costs to the products we choose, you expanded your critique of the forest product industry without comparing it in the same manner to the other building material industries, which have the same range of costs and impacts and typically far greater.
The bottom line, which I keep stressing, is that ANY large-scale industry based on the exploitation of human and natural resources is unsustainable. What you describe in the forest products industry simply doesn't happen in Vermont, which is why I live here and why I choose to use locally-sourced materials. Folks here understand stewardship.
Scott Nearing, after using any of his garden tools, would bring them back to his stone toolshed, scrape off any dirt, coat the metal and wood parts in kerosene, rub fine sand into the wooden handles, and hang them back up - each in their own place.
Most people today would consider such stewardship a waste of time, and I get funny looks when I do the same with my tools. But this honors the natural and human resources "embedded" in those tools, and almost guarantees that each one will last a lifetime.
Those who appreciate stewardship don't rebel against investing routine maintenance in one's possessions, including one's house.
As far as wood finish, stained wood doesn't require scraping. Solid body latex stains offer considerable UV and weather protection to wood siding and last as long as quality paints. And latex finish does NOT put a film layer on the wood - oil paints DO, which is why they peel and flake when moisture gets behind them. Latex finishes soak into the wood and actually polymerize around the cellulose, binding to the wood cells stronger than any oil finish.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Robert, i completely grok the concept of stewardship and practice it as well. Taking care of an investment has nothing in common with building in such a way as to require maintenance touted as a benefit to full employment. That's not stewardship, but wasteful and undignified make-work. As to the quality of paint jobs: those who can paint very well are generally good at other things that are a lot more interesting to do. I employed a drywall guy who could bring tears of gypsum joy to my eyes; he quit doing drywall after he graduated law school and became an environmental lawyer. What one is left with in the boring paint trade are a host of folks who CAN'T do anything else much and most often don't paint very well either. Now, you can devote your own time and money to unnecessary maintenance as you wish, but i'm going to save that money and time to spend mentoring students so they don't have to become painters on your houses.<<latex finish does NOT put a film layer on the wood>> Solid latex stains can peel and blister too, but you can google as well as i. There are advantages to stains over paint, but longevity isn't one i'd cite. Enjoy your pressure washing! I'll occasionally yell encouragement from the umbrella where i'm reading a book with my glass of lemonade, since my Hardie apparently refuses to peel. ;^P
That's not stewardship, but wasteful and undignified make-work.
That attitude is exactly why there aren't skilled painters (and skilled tradesmen in general).
As long as we believe that the legal profession is more "dignified" than painting houses, we'll waste so much time fighting off lawsuits we won't have time to paint our homes.
And you seem to think all labor is created equal. It's an attitude i've only encounterd in those who've had a choice in how they toiled.The miners and loggers and hash slingers i grew up with wanted desperately to have a respite from all that noble endeavor. I know i've gotten my fill of cleaning other people's toilets - and i wouldn't ask anyone to clean mine, either.
And you seem to think all labor is created equal. It's an attitude i've only encounterd in those who've had a choice in how they toiled.
All necessary work is equally dignified.
Slave labor, however, is not - whether it's chattel slavery or wage slavery.
Which is why i spoke about the difference between make-work and creative endeavor, which you conveniently conflated for your own agenda.You talk a lot about intellectual dishonesty. I will grant that you seem to be an expert on the topic.
By your standards, growing your own garden would be "make work" because you could much more easily get all your food at Safeway and leave much more time for "creative endeavors" (which apparently are only those actions not relevant to subsistence).
Nope, growing a garden can be a very creative endeavor. Planting big ol' lima beans inside a heated greenhouse rather than little peas suited to the climate would would be false economy, though.
So your "ethic" is to use a factory-made material, requiring wage-slave labor in what's probably a dangerous and polluting work environment in order to save you from having to do occassional maintenance and free your time for what you call "creative endeavor".
Sounds like another form of NIMBY elitism. "Make-work" is fine as long as someone else does it someplace else.
I have seen 3 story 8 years old homes have all the wood lap siding taken off due to early rot and paint delamination- its not minor maintenance.
Any building material can be installed improperly.
As we all know, durability of a building is determined by material choices, material quality, quality of installation, quality of finish, and how well the entire structure is engineered to function as a system to handle the three primary enemies:
water/moisture
UV
insects (who generally only attack damp materials)
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
No, current siding is inferior to what our predecessor's used.
There is no getting around it.
Period.
The wood at our disposal is not going to weather for two hundred years with out rotting.
Also it will need far more maintenance.
So please don't pretend it is poor building practices.
The highest form of sustainability is called bio-mimicry: making our artificial things work like natural things.
In nature, all things decompose and become food for the next generation of life. In nature, there is no waste - only recycling. Death is a necessary part of life.
By your standards, the "perfect" human being would be one who never dies. And the perfect house would be one which stands forever unchanging, like a permanent blot on the landscape.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
By my definition wood siding has a very real need for periodic maintenance.
The perfect human being would be one who didn't need frequent maintenance before he got shot by a jealous husband.
Hey now, how about some gender equality here. Might be shot by a jealous wife as well. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Either way, we're looking at some serious biodegradation. Which, as i understand it now, is the highest form of sustainability. I've got to dig out my old copy of the autobiography of Paramahansa Yogananda and see if this was covered in one of the chapters.
Might be shot by a jealous wife as well.
NTTAWWT <g>
(Even combining Carlin with Seinfeld <G>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
By the way is Angor Watt a blight upon the landscape?
Or Machu Picchu ?
Perhaps you would like to rethink that position.
By the way is Angor Watt a blight upon the landscape?
Or Machu Picchu ?
Perhaps you would like to rethink that position.
Or perhaps not.
We were talking about houses, not sacred space with universal significance.
I can't think of a single human structure built since the industrial "revolution" that is in that category of timeless magnificence.
What does the industrial revolution have to do with it?
Those were off the top of my head, wouldn't be hard to find many examples of architecture that have stood the test of time.
Trying to stay to the initial point here-
It's not the material that makes something worthwhile, it's the craftsmanship. It's the skill and care that go into it's design and execution.
There are examples all over the world using every none material that qualify as beautiful and enduring buildings.
So I find this argument of what is the best or proper building material very short sighted.
I stated my opinion before that it in the best interest of our environment ( and local builders) to keep some diversity in our building materials.
Wood is considered a "Renewable" resource. But it has a limit of
the volume it can maintain. As it is our use of it is not "Sustainable"
We need to find ways to use less if our forests are to replenish them selves. Perhaps off setting that with brick or stone, would be
a simple and time tested way building a -Lasting and beautiful home.
What does the industrial revolution have to do with it?
Mechanistic values, reliance on technology rather than craft, development and proliferation of artificial materials, loss of a sense of place and a sense of the sacred, architecture as an expression of ego rather than of geometry in service to the Divine, division of labor, mass production, enshrinement of efficiency as the highest value, work to make a living rather than to make a life...
Well now were on the same page!
But isn't this discussion about finding a better way?
You do realize you are arguing with a guy that sees no irony in using the INTERNET to decry the encroachment of technology, right ?
Just thought ya might wanna know...........Naive but refreshing !
HA
That's funny
no I missed that one
What makes you think I don't see the irony?
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Well then...............?Naive but refreshing !
Hey Riversong, Glad your around here shakin things up!
I think it is safe to say that All of us love wood,
most of us do not live near a sustainable forest and
we do not drive wooden cars!
John B
WHAT is fiber cement made from - something from mars? Nope- something from the ground- and like the 50s asbestos siding it lasts a long long time. And holds up to rain. what next - should we make umbrellas out of cardboard paper since its renewable????
wood outside is a bad choice
...and like the 50s asbestos siding it lasts a long long time.
Exactly my point.
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Five years later, the health impact of the September 11 attacks is becoming more apparent. In September 2006 a report by the World Trade Center Worker and Volunteer Medical Screening Program, coordinated by the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City, revealed widespread, persistent respiratory illness among rescue and recovery workers who were at the site on that fateful day.
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You must be snowed in...you've got way to much free time
Not snowed in. We were supposed to get 10"-15" last night but got only about 8".
Got myself a plow this year so I won't get snowed in, but I do take the winter off from building, hibernate some, read books, write, research, consult and design, and prepare for my Yestermorrow classes (Plumbing Demystified this weekend and Efficiency by Design 3rd week in March).
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Edited 2/27/2008 8:59 pm ET by Riversong
"wood outside is a bad choice"Unless it's painted and maintained properly, just like brick, stucco, hardi and everything. Then, it will last centuries. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Agree its just that maintaining wood required sooooooo much more time and effort.
edwardh1
Done properly paint is very durable. But few, Heck virtually no one paints things well.. it's far more likely they apply some color on the surface and call it painted.. proper painting is so much more involved than that.
So few people are willing to pay the full price of a proper paint that we just accept paint application on the surface as normal and accept frequent failure and repainting as proper.
If you will accept some immitation product such as cement board that's OK.. Lot's of people accept cheap immatations.
Yes I like the "imitation wood" fiber cement- it looks great and lasts a long time. I can relax and spend time with the grandkids.
Many of the people who push for "real" wood are in the repair business and are threatened by something lasting a long while on the outside of a house. (they lose business replacing the rot every few years).
A realtor showing me a house once told me that "masonite" ( it was damaged by water on the house we were looking at)- - the 80s fiberboard that swells when it gets wet- is a "good exterior building material" as long as it is protected.
Same statement applies to wood and cardboard.
wood IS great inside a home.
and on classic boats that are not used much etc etc .
It used to be used on the exterior of car bodies. Can you think of a reason why they stopped using it?
edwardh1
As I said if you like immitation things then by all means use whatever someone sells you..
I'm not in the business of selling any product, when I did I sold Telehandlers (those forklifts used in building homes).
I have wood and stone on the exterior of my house because of it's inate value. Yes it's real stone pulled from a quarry. You can go to 94041.1 for pictures, oh and 85891.1 Not that imitation dyed cement stone.
I used to visit as many as 30+ job sites a day and did that for 17 years.. A simple glance told me what people were building with. Remarkably most building materials sell for around the same price if you can avoid all the middlemen who have their hand out. Buy wood from sawmills, stone from quarries, and your costs will be lower than cement board costs from your supplier..
In addition you can buy decay resistant wood as I did and if all six sides are properly primed and sealed that wood can last for centuries if a fresh top coat of paint is applied every decade or so..
I live in a neighborhood of really highend homes. Multi million dollar places. To get here you don't make foolish decisions. You learn values, real values not just first cost. Low maintinace imitation products always have their supporters but are either never or extremely rarely found around here..
Go to those Mc Mansion homes nearby and you'll find plenty of that sort of stuff.. Nobody who wants to is fooled by that sort of thing. Oh sure, some people accept it and try to justify it. Deep in their hearts they know...
Edited 2/29/2008 9:12 am ET by frenchy
I was just reading through this thread from the beginning, one thought
occurred to me. It's not a question of weather wood is Green or not. It is what it is. What's Green is choosing to do the maintenance to make it last.
Repaint?
or replace that is the question.
we do not drive wooden cars!
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North Carolina-based Joe Harmon Design has created "the world's first wooden supercar," which can reportedly reach speeds of 240 miles per hour.
The 15-foot-long "Splinter" has a 4.6-liter V8 engine and is made from maple, plywood, and fiberboard. The the key to its speed advantage over metal cars is weight, according to its owners: It tips the scales at 2,500 pounds, they say, nearly 530 pounds less than a Porsche 911 GT3.
The six-speed Splinter, which supposedly gets decent gas mileage for a race car (up to 20 miles per gallon), is scheduled to roll out this year at an undisclosed price. Depending on how well it does, maybe a future Prius made out of bamboo isn't as crazy as it sounds.
http://crave.cnet.com/8301-1_105-9876319-1.html
Henley,
I don't believe that you have the issue of sustainability completely figured out.
While there can be no replacement for some of those old growth giants grown on the west coast. Here in the hardwood forests of Minnesota we plant two trees for every one we've harvested and have for a long time.. We have more mature large trees here in Minnesota now than we did back in the 1950's. An estimated 20 million trees over 20 inches compared to only about 7 million in the 1950's
I bought old growth trees for construction of my home.. Some older than the declaration of independance. That was a small portion of the trees in the farmers woodlot.. White oak normally starts to decay internially around 200 years so it's important to harvest it..
In addition todays homes are built with second growth or third growth or scrub trees. Trees which are sustainable and while they don't add to biodiversity so technically they aren't forests they do contribute to oxygen production.
frenchy..... same is true of most of New England.... any old lithograph of any part of new england will show nothing but open fields
now.... all you see are treesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Frenchy no one has the issue of sustainability figured out. It's great news that your state is so actively replanting!
Lets not pretend that the WORLDS forests are in serious decline. I've told you before that I believe that the longevity and beauty of timber frames seam to me merit their "GREENNESS"
My point here is that RiverSong feels that other building materials than wood are detrimental to our life on the planet.
I'm trying to point out that if everyone choose wood it would have serious consequences for our forests. Your house in particular illustrates that fact.
Old growth (what was it) Walnut and oak I believe. It wouldn't even be possible for large numbers of homes to be from such rare material, let alone "GREEN".
That said their is room for the occasional person to make use of their local resources. My point exactly-Diversity
"I can't think of a single human structure built since the industrial "revolution" that is in that category of timeless magnificence."umm.....Fallingwater?Ennis House? (Lloyd Wright, Los Angeles)Doud Hovel? (you coming to the fest?)"there's enough for everyone"
I'm also under the impression that "timeless magnificence" means there's a good chance it'll never get finished.
means there's a good chance it'll never get finished
Ah! So Gaudi's works "count" then? <g,d,&r>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
That was worthwhile just to consider myself a NIMBY elitist! You're a hoot, Robert.
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(Hand in air waving)
Ohh Ohhh I know!
Be a HOOT , Don't Pollute!!!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Careful, Rowdy. You're on the verge of being called an "effete snob".I'm going to go NIMBY me up some window trim out of 60-y.o. shelving i salvaged. I've got a board 3/4 x 11 x 15 feet long...all clear. It's going to be painful sinking a blade into that one... :^(
Like in my other thread, I have that coffee tree in 5/4 x 17"x 10'
A bunch of them..I hate fooling with it, it's so damm pretty as is.
Now I have access to a saw mill, I am like a pig in mud.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I was up at "Northgate Mall" one day (what the Welfare Moms in my neighhood in Missoula called the city dump) and this D-# was running over NEW maple strip flooring! I hopped over there and grabbed all i could between passes, but probably didn't get a tenth of what the operator was burying. I milled the T&G off and used it in cutting boards i sold at the fairs - made a few hundred bucks.Clean salvage...now that's rare!
It's a crime, our landfill has a "No Picking" rule..I hate to even go there..so much good shid getting buried, and the operators will NOT slow or stop if you are in the thick of it.
Stoopid.
In NC we had big transfer / recycle centers, you could scavenge all ya wanted..I got some real cool stuff diving in them 40' boxes.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
One of the perks i'm finding of working on other people's houses this last year is getting their 'old' stuff. I have a couple dark-colored screen doors (she wanted white ones <rolleyes>) to use in my new greenhouse. They're going to be so uptown...full glass, screens intact...oh, my!
Don't be rubbin it in..I promisedmyself I'd have my GH built this year, just to get the pppers an early jump ( I am doing 100 day ers this year, and frost will bite me early, I just know it), and have a place to use up all these patio doors , sliding glass ones, up.
But the garage/shop is pressing me hard after having to mill all that Ginko wood inside the house all closed up..normally I'd wheel stuff outside, but friggin sneet and "FWW" don't get along too well..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
That was worthwhile just to consider myself a NIMBY elitist!
You're a hoot, Robert.
FWIW this exchange has been hilarious.
Your ripostes are priceless........ reminds me why I never, ever wanna pick a fight with you. It'd be like showing up nekkid to a razor fight.Naive but refreshing !
I for one don't doubt your numbers on embodied energy, of course wood takes less energy to harvest or transport than earthen materials.
As I said longevity and maintenance should factor in. Also the enduring beauty.
Yet isn't important to think about our " Material Diversity" (I just made that up). What I mean is clay is the most abundant mineral on the surface of the planet. It's everywhere.
While our forests are being depleted at an astounding rate.
It seams to me a mixture of different materials, perhaps tailored to individual locals would be a better use of all our resources.
Oh Wait isn't that what we already do?
Riversong,
I do take exception to your definitions of embodied energy. Just looking at the timbers used in my home for example.. sure they are were locally grown less than 100 miles from here.. but some were harvested close to the road, some were deep in the woods.. some were dragged out using big diesel equipment while some were snaked out using a horse or mule..
Because I'm so intimately familiar with the details of my house I pretty much know where most came from.. So I guess we have to add the energy of me going there and "supervising" except sometimes I was right nearby doing my job while other times I came from my home..
If I go to a local lumberyard I'll find wood from Canada, Finland, Southeastern US and the Appalachians.. (as well as some grown in Northern Minnesota)
Since price is the prime factor in wood and there clearly is a transportation cost to moving that stuff around.. it means the per unit cost of shipping a 2x4 from Canada to Minnesota must somehow be similar to the cost of shipping it from the Mills up near Duluth down to the Twin Cities..
I can safely use costs as a valid comparison because business doesn't exist except to make a profit. So I am certain that the costs of making the railroad and equipment is factored into the costs of freight rates..
Embodied energy isn't a really valid way to determine potential harmful effects. For example if those trees were harvested the embodied energy in the bowel would decay and add to atmospheric pollution.. True enough that fully 50% of the "energy" in the tree remains in the forest to decompose and provide the required nutrients for future growth which provides us with the oxygen we need to breathe. The 50% that is harvested is removed from the hydrocarbon stream for a indeterminate period of time..
I am sure that the timbers from my home when it comes to that point will be saved. You simply do not discard black walnut or white oak timbers of that size.
My point is that far from your fixed and determinable amount embodied energy is extremely varable.
You entirely missed the point of my post.
Embodied energy is only one factor in the overall environmental impact of the materials and methods we choose, but it IS an important one to consider given that we're hitting peak oil and the cost of energy is skyrocketting.
Of course, the numbers in embodied energy charts are industry averages, and the actual embodied energy of a particular timber will vary according to its production factors.
But the dollar cost of materials doesn't necessarily reflect the energy costs of production and shipping because there are government subsidies which offset many of those costs (like the "free" interstate highway system and tax incentives, tarrifs, accelerated depreciation, etc.). Remember that many environmental costs are still considered "externalities" - that is they are not included in the accounting sheet but are paid for by the environment and ultimately by us and all other living things.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Riversong.
Oh I think I understand, what's more I'm in agreement with the concept. However seperating out the various numbers becomes an accounting nightmare and is subject to massive debates and endless discussions..
Debates that are too easily misdirected or confused.
That's why I use stuff we all learned by 2nd grade. Adding and subtracting.. If we use a common constant (money) people tend to understand even if the absolute exact and correct numbers aren't used. If the concept is sound the numbers will follow..
Further in discussions fudging should be valid.. Does it matter if there are exactly 7 billion people in the world? Should the exact number of days before another billion is added to that be critical?
splintergroupie,
Paint every few years.. either we have someone bored with their life and trying to create new excitement or we have a lousy painter.
Please read Blue's comments about painting and how doing the job right makes all the differance..
In my neighborhood there is exactly one house that is properly painted.. (remember this is all high end stuff)
There is a world of differance between paint appliers and real painters.. (I should know, I'm one of the former not the latter) In fact in my lifetime I've seen maybe 4 real painters and hundreds of paint appliers..
Just in case you miss the thrust of my point, a great paint job will last decades not a few years.
All materials "greenness" varies according to locale.Just what percentage of the wood used in homes in the US do you think is "local"? And just how do you define local? Let's see... Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Phoenix, San Francisco, New York, Miami, Albuquerque, Denver, Omaha, (just to name a few) certainly don't have any large amount of commercial grade wood within any close proximity. What percentage of the population lives in those locales?I suspect that your take on wood exteriors is also skewed due to your locale? Ever try to keep paint or stain on a home in the desert? The Rockies? If the portland in my concrete comes from less than 50 miles away, the railroad, limestone, and power plant are all existing (as is our situation with a new cement plant), then your figures may not work out the same as where ever you read whatever you read that promoted your post.Or maybe the entire population of the US should move to Vermont? < G >
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
All materials "greenness" varies according to locale.
Absulutely. As I said in my previous post, the first measure of sustainability (which is a much better term than "green") is that a material be local and renewable.
And just how do you define local?
I define local as close as possible. The last house I built was made of wood that was 95% felled and milled in Vermont. Some of it felled and milled by a local sawyer just up the road. Some of it felled by myself and milled by another local sawyer. Some of it from a mill 50 miles away. Interior partitions were made of KD lumber from the local lumberyard (I don't patronize Home Depot) and probably came from Canada.
There are many parts of the country where this is possible, if we builders made that choice. Unfortunately, even here in 90% forested Vermont, many of the old-time sawyers are retiring and closing up their shops because of lack of patronage (and their children don't want to do the work for an honest living).
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 2/23/2008 10:54 pm ET by Riversong
Does your building code (assuming you have one) require graded lumber? That's one of the problems with using local lumber in many areas: it's not graded and isn't accepted by building departments.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
hasbeen
If you read the building code there are provisions for nongraded wood .. you simply must be aware of them to point them out to building inspectors. Don't expect building inspectors to accept that or believe you. Have a copy of it with you (I'm cheap, I photocopied a sheet out of the copy at the library) .. <grin>
What code, frenchy? There are a number of them, you know.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Does your building code (assuming you have one) require graded lumber?
Vermont has no state-wide building code, but I've built houses of rough-sawn lumber in Massachusetts and have never had a problem with inspectors.
If you know what you're doing and can show them the design values and engineering calculations, it's unlikely a building inspector will challenge you. And if they do, you can always get an engineer's stamp on the plans.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Colorado has no state wide building code, either. And yes, you can get an engineers stamp on plans and inspection of otherwise ungraded lumber. Those factors raise the price of the project, of course. I've been denied use of ungraded lumber locally and so have others (who didn't want to pay an engineer for services).
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Hasbeen
It's been a while but I found the ability to use ungraded lumber in both the UBC and the more currant building code.
I'll grant you that I spent many an hour before I found it, but if you look it's there.. It's the basis for most Log, post and beam, or timberframe homes..
Ed, Interesting subject.
Fiber cement make sense to me ...but I wonder????
Nobody ever said that Joe Lstiburek was a "Greenie" but he does believe in low maintenance and durabilty.
I find it curiouos that Joe chose to use cedar siding on one of his recent personal projects.
ShelterNerd (extra green dude) prefers wood.
There is a hardiplanked house in my neighborhood and only about 5 years old and it was recently repainted.
I suspect that technique is more impotant than material choice.
edwardh1
Why not go with all brick? practically zero maintinance. extreme durability and personally I like the look..
Frenchy your killing me.
Now we have to read all about "embodied energy" again!
I just see the maintenance on the wood houses- painters coming and taking off rotted wood lap siding, trip pieces warped, splits, knots, softplaces in the wood- and these houses are less than 10 years old. All that ga each day driving back and forth for the repair crews to the work site and delivery of new wood from the lumber yard- and they will do it again in 10 years.
Yeah I know the ifs on wood- if its a good piece if its installed right if its painted on all sides if no water gets on it if if if.Lots of big fiber cement homes here not painted after 10 years- no warping splitting sap oozing out, etc etc
edwardh1
Years ago there used to be a lot of houses sided with a cement board product that sorta looked like shakes.. that too had the advantage of not needing regular painting.. However like hardie board you could spot it a long way away and eventually grew out of favor.. Frankly I don't like the look of any siding that needs to pretend to be something that it's not.. I don't care if it's plastic, aluminum, or concrete.
frenchy...... that's bs...
you can't drive by a fibercement lap sided house and tell from the street that it's not wood
matter of fact... same is true of modern vinyl siding
from the street , they all look the same... assuming they're all well done and well detailed
with the modern vinyls and patterns.. , properly flashed, there will be no maintenance
with wood, there will always be maintenance
fibercement falls right between those twoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't know Mike, I agree with just about everything you've said except about vinyl.Maybe there is some vinyl that looks like wood and doesn't show gaping seems...I've never seen it. Also, most vinyl looks like #### after about 10-15 years, from what I've seen.
jesse..... we've never installed a single square of vinyl... and i'm not a fan
but some of the new product out there is very nice looking , and the new formulations are going to stand up a lot better than what you and i are used to
if i were not such a big fan of Fibercement... i'd be looking at vinylMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I'm sorry. I can clearly identify non-wood siding.
I won't argue about the properly done part.. I'm not an expert.. I will tell you that to me it stands out like a sore thumb..
I don't think Hardi has ever fooled me into thinking it was wood, but I never really thought about it too much. For one thing, I've never seen lap siding (wood) with a 6" reveal. That would be my first and last clue. If I every start seeing 6" wood lap siding, I might start getting confused. I would like to relate a story about wood. Back in 80, I built a quad-level in suburbia. There were 38 "custom" houses in the neighborhood and all the rest were built by a production minded builder who didn't really care about quality, techniques or any of the trades. All of the exterior trim was #2 White Pine with a smooth finish. Anyways, I didn't paint much in those days, so my father-in-law came over and primed all the exterior trim. He took great care in priming the knots first with shellac, then laid on a very heavy prime coat. The production painters in the neighborhood told him that his prime coat looked better than their finish coats. It did! My FIL then put on a very excellent second coat. Within three years, all the neighbors were complaining that their watered down paint was failing and they were repainting. My trim looked as good as the day it was done. Ten years later, the people were painting again and most were covering it with aluminum siding. They were tired of their trim looking junky. My trim looked as good as it did the day it was painted. The caulking was holding tight (we caulk properly in MI) and the wood was all perfect. At some point, near the 15 or 18 year mark, I got tired of my original paint job. The paint and caulk was still holding up well except on one joint, which was showing signs of the paint bubbling. The aluminum siding was faded so bad that I decided that I'd redo everything. I didn't bother painting because I wrapped it all in aluminum (the market wants that in that neighborhood). The moral of the story: it aint the wood that is failing....it' the paint job and poor caulking. A well painted house puts a skin over the entire exterior. A properly caulked house uses the right type of caulk AFTER THE PAINT is applied and the caulk adheres to the skin of the paint and the other object that it's butted up to. We could easily have washed and repainted the trim and it would have looked like brand new trim and if we caulked it properly, with the appropriate type of exterior caulk, it would have lasted another 20 years easy....with no wood replaced. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well said Blue!
the number of people who apply paint compared to painters is astonishing!
and it's not just the proper steps as you outlined.. It's about doing each step correctly, skillfully, with craft and talent..
Because painters come in at the end when the budget has been badly shattered they are poorly paid and badly rushed.. It's understandable that some revert from being painters to paint appliers.
But as you so properly point out a great paint job is a real beauty..
matter of fact... same is true of modern vinyl siding
from the street , they all look the same... assuming they're all well done and well detailed
with the modern vinyls and patterns.. , properly flashed, there will be no maintenance
Gimme a break.
You can tell a vinyl-sided house from a block away from the ugly trim pieces. Makes a house look cheap (which is why it's used on tract houses).
Vinyl fades over time and gets brittle (try doing renovations on old vinyl).
PVC is the most pervasive consumer plastic, and puts significant amounts of dioxin into the environment at the front end (manufacture) and back end (disposal) - the most toxic man-made substance.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
i guess you just don't keep up...
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I told ya Frenchy was opening a can of worms.
Hmm, just occurred to me that vinyl siding is probably the most "local" siding option in may area (nearest plant is only 90 miles away).
They used to make brick locally, but that's fifty years ago. Nowadays, brick ismade no closer than wood siding is. (Not that burroak and mesquite would make very decent siding any way . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
some of the new patterns and products are very nice ( also pricey )
be interesting to see how the new formulations hold upMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
some of the new patterns and products are very nice
As are the Achilles heel of vinyl, the trim. Pretty dumb to only use the junky J trim on the new patter stuff, but it happens.
Personally, I'm glad a previous owner painted the lemon yellow vinyl on my house an understated buckskin color, and if I ever get enough out of my financial hole, and after the electrical and plumbing and insulation get updated, the vinyl is to go away. At present rate that will be in 2030 or so . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
the only vinyl we use are the windows ( Andersen )
and the soffits ( Alcoa Pro-bead )
but i do see a lot more high end pojects being done with vinyl siding & trim
the vinyl shingles are getting a lot of playMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Whats wrong with brick?Local brick council had a display at a recent home and garden show with signs all around saying that it was green..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Hardie/FC I am taking about is the lap siding. Lots of new homes here use it.
Just joking around.
I love it, but some people around here feel the energy used to
make/transport it is excessive.
A well built and durable house is my "Green" house. I'd say brick
meets that criteria quite well.
Henley,
I'd be inclined to agree with you. The clay used in brick is readily avialable and if you wanted to you could hand throw clay into molds and make them without using any petroleum product at all..
Or you could pull rocks from river streams and use those to cover the walls with river stone..
Around here farmers used to all have big piles of rocks picked from their fields that were your's for the taking.. (untill someone went around offering $100 a ton for them)
Local brick council had a display at a recent home and garden show with signs all around saying that it was green.
Gimme a break. Brick is red.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
GREEN brick.http://stl.prettywar.com/archives/000211.php
.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Method Matters...as blue attests.
Shellac on the knots only on the front face.(plug both sides it will bleed out both). Make sure the material is dry and prefinish on all 4 faces. Seal the end grains...Ruins lots of cloths but hey... wear cotton if you are worried about footprint.
Seal all 6 sides and the wood does not expand and contract due to moisture content...stain or paint will then stay tight. It will fade particularly on the west and south but using good products could last 20 or 30 years in my estimation.
There's more info on finishing outdoors here... Exterior Stain on Wood
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
@@@the rest are wood. 10 years old. all are lap planked with wood except the stucco (over wood) ones. MAny have already been repainted , many have had the stucco removed, many 300 or so wooden spindeles on the porch railings.
@@@
All right! Work for us! Here in SoCal that is a wonderful feast for the termites and a home for irrigation-induced rot. Don't use those hardie products, insist on genuine wood. Wood is Good! <g> (Hey, it keeps the ToolBear in tools.)
One of our clients has a project done in a wood siding material. It is an incredible collection of termites and rot. Everywhere you look, bugs or rot holes. We could spend a year out there and still have work - if they had the money. They don't.
If it were my money, it would be done in something from James Hardie or classic stucco in this climate.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
A large part of it is design also. If the house was built with large overhangs or porches the wood would be protected somewhat. A roof that comes out over the walls is good design for a number of reasons but it is more expensive up front.
So true on overhangs but the style in the neo traditional neighborhood here is to have a 4 inch overhang- its a style thing they will say (a cost thing I think by the builder)
so in a rain the front door will get washed with water as do all the windows especially on a 2 story house. lotsa wood rot. and cracked door panels. but it looks colonial - or whatever new enfland / english style it was that had the little dinky overhangs.
Personally I like the look of wood and yes there is maintenance involved. I have vinyl on my home that is being replaced with vertical wood siding. I didn't really like the bleached look of my coloured vinyl too much after 10 years. Oh yeah fixing the broken vinyl siding spots where the lawn mover pitched a stone or the weed wacker line clipped through would cause the maintenance guys to drive out and fix them if I didn't do this myself. I guess cleaning and some new vinyl sticking paints are now available but that was going to be a lot of work as well (plus more chemicals deived from some industrialized process).
But if this is all about being "green" then the problems with climate change are coming from too much carbon build up in the atmosphere - energy production, car emissions, industrial production. Trees and their wood products that we use actually store carbon until they are burned or decay into the soil.
So seems to me that using more wood is actually being more green.
If I wanted purely low maintenance, I would go with the concrete board which looks really sharp as well. It doesn't seem to be available as mainstream in my neck of the woods unless you are builder. Brick is nice but good brick workers are getting harder to come by and I would not make a living doing brick laying.
I do not like vinyl either. Fiber cement lap siding I think is perfect, looks good and maint is a 10 or 15 year thing.
Lowes here sells fiber cement preprimed 1x8 12 ft long 10 months ago was like $6 a piece