Well, I’m not down to the wire, but switching gears outside again; have a trench open to lay in sewer and then 12″ above and to the side, three utilities: gas, water, and electrical.
I’ll use 1 1/2″ iron for the gas line, plastic conduit for the electrical, but what about the water? I have the option to use either copper or PVC. None of the latter (copper and iron) need to be wrapped. I’m thinking maybe going with a schedule 80 for the water line. Any thoughts?
All these utilities (except the sewer which is the new line for the new house) will be servicing a cottage on the existing lot; the utilities are coming from the new-construction house.
Also, as a side-note; any thoughts on using ABS vs SDR 35 for the 4″ sewer lateral?
Thanks ahead of time for any suggestions.
Replies
everybody here just use schedule 40 white pvc for supply
my town water and spring both are 1'' black abs with no problems..Kentucky here.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
ABS or polyethelne?
I have never hear 1" abs, not to say that it does not exists.
maybe a confusion on my end..I always THOUGHT it was ABS..black coils..grey fittings,, hose clamps and compression fittings..some one musta called it that in my childhood an it stuck..never liked it all that much, but now a convert..being as they came out to dig up my main, and fixed it in 10 mins. flat with two compression unions and 1 foot of new pipe.
Slap me if I'm wrong..woodworking..stick to woodworking Duane.
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Oh, yea, speaking of fittings, I would not use the gray plastic fitting with the polyethylene pipe. I only use brass or stainless steel hose nipples, with stainless steel clamps. Stainless if I'm connecting to steel pipe, brass if connecting to copper. If the clamps are to be burried, I don't use the ones with a stainless band but a steel screw. I use all stainless clamps for burial.
makes sense to me..all of my unions are compression (brass) and tie right to my newly run inside copper..
I musta been wrong about the ABS/polyethlyne names..
I just hate plumbing..always is ONE MORE trip to the store for ONE MORE fitting..I don't do that much, but have learned to grab contactor packs of fittings..even if I just need 2..<G>
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Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
What, does everyone have something against me? What did I ever do to you?
signed,
galvanized pipe
Copper will hold up well, but burried too close to iron might accelerate the decay of the iron. If you go with PVC, the extra money for schedule 80 is probably worth it because it will be resist physical damage more. Schedule 40 would be pleanty adequate for the water pressure.
I'd use black polyethylene, though. The big advantages are flexibility and being seamless end to end. In my opinion its the most reliable of all the options. Especially in earthquake country.
Schedule 80 PVC for the water, if allowed. One advantage of PVC over copper is that it is so cheap, you can afford to go up a size and be sure you have no pressure drop on the service line. I'm not allowed to, here, because you have to be able to thaw your lines. When you step up to speciality plastic pipe with heat trace embedded in it, you might as well go with copper.
I'd strongly recommend polyethylene gas piping. Has to be made up at the plumbing supply, but give them dimensions and they'll fit the metal 90 degree sweeps to each end. Bury that with a tracer wire and you've got no joints below grade. And you're not trying to crank on black iron pipe and fittings in a trench, with dirt falling, etc. Of course, check that it is approved for use locally. Check with both building department and gas company, sometimes the gas company is stricter than local code. But I love the stuff.
But 1-1/2" on the gas? Is the regulator not at the house? I'm used to seeing (CA, WA, AK) gas coming to the house in medium (5 psi) or high (60 psi) and then regulated to 1/4 psi = 7" w.c.) at the house. So you only need 3/4 or 1" for the service line.
Ah, just re-read your post. So you are coming off AFTER your regulator/gas meter hence the need for the huge gas line. If the cabin is always part of the property, that's probably the way to go - you save the meter fees on the second meter. I plumbed my own cabin for its own services so it could be sub-divided at a later date.
Sphere: Slap! The coiled black stuff is poly, not ABS.
1-1/2" gas is huge. Got a kiln or something in there?
I think it's worth asking the inspector what he wants you to use. Last jurisdiction I worked in only wanted copper water service, no plastic. Here they'll accept PVC but prefer copper, and no buried black iron for gas, only poly. Or, talk to a plumber and ask what's typical in your area.
My primary trade is underground utility / sitework contractor. I remodel on the side.
>1 1/2" iron for the gas line
Wow. Utility company uses SDR7 IPS polyethylene here, yellow plastic. 1 1/2" is commercial service.
>plastic conduit for the electrical
NEMA conduit (grey) is standard for electrical here, but sched-40 is okay. The grey conduit is cheaper & thinner walled, and works well.
>what about the water? I have the option to use either copper or PVC.
Water service here is either copper in 60' or 100' rolls 3/4" or 1", or SDR9 polyethylene blue plastic. SDR7 black plastic (thinner walled) is sometimes used for irrigation / well services. The blue poly is a first choice - cheap, 100', 300', or 500' rolls in 3/4" and 1" and you won't have any problems. Try to avoid coupling and if you do use standard compression fittings - AY McDonald, Ford, or Muellers are the only ones you should use for buried service. But don't use them, buy a bigger coil.
>any thoughts on using ABS vs SDR 35 for the 4" sewer lateral
Don't use ABS. It's not approved in anyone's code that I'm aware of. Use SDR35 unless your depth of bury is greater than 12', then use SDR26. I would run a 6" lateral, 4" tends to clog. Pay the extra bucks for gasketed fittings and pipe, the solvent-weld stuff is junk and will cause you grief.
An underground utility supply yard, such as Hughes, Ferguson, U.S. Filter, etc. will have your best price. Present yourself as a knowledgeable contractor at the cash desk. Also, I assume you're not running the lat in the same trench as your water service. Bad idea if you are. Ten states code require 10' horizatontal on parallel runs and 18" vertical separation on a crossing of water and sanitary, and that is the uniform code for most of the country.
remodeler
Yikes, I don't think I've ever had this many responses this early in a post I've made. Thanks heaps for the suggestions and help.
Some of you guys are giving me a little bit more benefit of the doubt as far as what I am familar with; I am not a plumber by trade, and of all the sub's that I worked, and continue to work with, the plumber(s), for whatever reason, at least on my project were the toughest to deal with--in fact, I was sued by one of the first plumbers that was on my site--that's a whole other story, which I posted about almost a year ago...I'm trying to put that whole thing behind me. Ironic, cuz I had a few issues, which I thought there would or would expect to be with the group that did my foundation and framing, but the latter, save the dickhead principal of the company, are back on my project doing some additional work. I've also had a number of their other carpenters on my job doing side work for me; but all the latter is a sidenote.
Wayne, it never even crossed my mind about the interaction between copper and iron, or the potential for it, in a trench...yeah, yeah, I know about that when joining the latter two materials for say water, but didn't think about in a trench; another reason to consider pvc for water line; or at least put the electrical conduit between water and gas.
David, it never even crossed my mind going up in diameter size for the water which is an excellent point. I use to work for an ol' division of Johns Manville bought by a Taiwanese conglomerate (funny, this was the 80's when foreign companies were buying American companies and employing Americans...guess that's a whole other post and thread) so kinda know hydraulics or the dynamics the of; wouldn't head-loss fall into some consideration? I mean usually in gravity flow you go up in diameter, but I'm not so sure about in water supply and pressure; it seems like gas (I wrote 1 1/2", but to be sure, it might be 1 1/4"...I need to check what is poking out my structure where the original design is reflected) falls in between this water and gravity issue--but then gas is operating at such a low pressure, that distances to use i.e. the cottage in this case is made up by size of the pipe, volume. Anyway, I'm intrigued by this idea about sizing up as on this line as I have a pool and landscaping to a large extent to contend with down the road.
davidmeiland and remodelerdw--you guys keep refering to plastic pipe/poly-whatever gas lines; I'm interested in that, but get this; I email with the head building inspector with my City and he said if I used ductile iron for the sewer, I wouldn't need to use any sand in the trench for backfill! I was like, "People still use iron for sewer laterals!!!" I don't know, I'm in the Bay Area and it is still a Union area in some of the trades. So I don't even want to think what is going on with poly-pipe for gas...maybe I should ask.
Further remodelerdw--good comments about the sewer lateral and sizing up and using gasketed fittings (did I comment that I use to work for Johns Manville?), I didn't really consider that; in my area, this could/would suit well in earthquake country--however, I am on bedrock where this is not always an issue like being in the Marina District in SF proper. I like the idea about possibly upsizing with the lateral. It will be almost 100' to tie into the six inch City main that was installed some almost 70 years ago. The only thing is I have plenty of drop; probably on my stretch (without looking at my topo) about 12 feet (and yeah, I just had to look at my topo).
Thanks again...
Where are you specifically in the Bay Area? I know lotsa folks there and probably someone you could call for info if you like. Seriously, find out what the city and PG&E are going to be OK with for the various lines.
david, I am in San Mateo County: just had PG & E out on site last week to inspect my trenching for the service line (nothing that I have been outlining above) and my project or trenching "failed." Nothing that I had done; what I had done was fine with the inspector. But the location of the meter was different on his paperwork and mine...so he was going to get jiggy with the designer and hopefully get my project pushed through and schedule this week. This is the same organization that failed to mark out in my trench the live underground electrical wire that services the house across the street (pretty much everyone else is overhead, including my new construction)...what worries me is that I had a laborer on site to dig my trench and he could conceivably been injured by this mishap. If PG & E gives me any $hit on this inspection or service hook-up, I am going to read them the riot act...it is unconsciousable (sp?) that they would miss this and not mark adequately on the City's easement that there was live wire underground; the gas line they did mark which is why I was digging...
> > "but I'm not so sure about in water supply and pressure
> > I'm in the Bay Area and it is still a Union area in some of the trades."
For the potable water service line, 3/4 is minimum for flow but not ideal. For up to 100', I'd go 1" minimum. I've got 400' myself but had to use copper because at only 11' deep it is too likely to freeze and need thawing. So I went with 1-1/4 copper. PVC and I would have used 1-1/2 or 2 - better for fire protection. (And I have no meter which sets an upper limit on flow in many installations.)
I was trying put ABS in Oakland in the late 80's and when asked why ABS wasn't allowed, was told, "Cast iron worked fine in 1920, works fine now." I took it as extreme plumber conservatism but it could have been a full-employment issue for his brother-in-law. At least they allowed no-hub instead of akem and lead!
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
I'm under the impression that you can't run water and sewer lines parallel with each other unless they're 10' apart. (At least here in Illinois)
Or am I all wet ???Enter action with boldness . . . Any mistakes you commit through audacity are easily corrected with more audacity. [ Robert Greene and Joost Elffers, "The 48 Laws of Power,"]
Wiley,
I've seen ductile used for sewer main / lats, primarily when it's very deep and we're compacting backfill in lifts and don't want to burst the pipe (such as in front of houses where the driveways would settle with uncompacted fill). But it's expensive, probably $6/ft for 6" and the 4" is hard to come by out my way. It's not commonly used so small. Sand is expensive too though.
Your drop gives you a 12% fall, and at that rate your effluent will outrun your solids and you will have tremendous problems with sewer clogs. 1-2% is doable. It sounds like you need a small manhole to take that much drop.
Good luck,
remodeler (dw is my wife's account)
I see a bit of your point, and now I'm like the ol' (or young at the time) sales rep in the PVC industry; the PVC will be non-porous, unlike clay (yeah, it ain't glazed in the inside), and ductile iron (that ain't smooth or slick on the inside), so yeah, the solid may have to play catch up, but it will be with the next flush or whatever, the solid will always be behind to the prior flush. Plus, given that there will be far more effluent than solids, I really don't see the biggie. The only reason why engineering gets into this whole drop, 1/4" to a foot or whatever, is because there isn't the grade like you can realize in my situation--at least that's my rational in my situation and with what little experience I've had in the industry as a whole.
Further:
I've seen ductile used for sewer main / lats, primarily when it's very deep and we're compacting backfill in lifts and don't want to burst the pipe (such as in front of houses where the driveways would settle with uncompacted fill). But it's expensive, probably $6/ft for 6" and the 4" is hard to come by out my way. It's not commonly used so small. Sand is expensive too though.
Actually, from my experience in the industry, one could install a large diameter paper roll and if installed properly, would last it's design length to any other material. I have to agree that more rigid/solid materials make up for poor installation. But if installed correctly, PVC is better in the long run which I can clearly outline.
However, the earlier point is taken where I will at least install some additional cleanouts in my system more than likely.
JoeH, thanks for that; I really need to research, and am a bit in the dark about options (if I have them in my City) for the gas.
Boss, I forgot to add yesterday; yeah, in our City spec the sewer and water can share the same trench, but must have a degree of separation (water 12" up and 12" to one side of the sewer line) as long as the materials in the trench are approved for use in the house. They are adopting or use 2001 UPC 718.3. Which at second glance, with the materials I am using, I'm not even sure if I need the separation outlined above.
Edited 4/6/2004 11:25 pm ET by Wiley
Edited 4/7/2004 11:44 am ET by Wiley
"NEMA conduit (grey) is standard for electrical here, but sched-40 is okay. The grey conduit is cheaper & thinner walled, and works well."
'Standard' PVC electrical conduit is sch 40.
But there is also a sch 80 that is used where there is chance of phyiscal damage.
Thanks for the additional comments. When I am mentioning ABS I am thinking the stuff used inside the house where I would solvent weld the joints with a coupling in the trench. My impression from working/selling "plastic" pipe (I only dealt with PVC pipe) in the 80's was that ABS is less impact resistant to PVC i.e. SDR 35 in this case. Once either are in the trench, I don't know that there is heaps of difference.
Bill, you remind me of a story of a new electrical panel I put in, in a house I owned in the early nineties; I remember running conduit from the meter to the roof. I remember researching or working with the issue of schedule 80 vs schedule 40. Having to use schedule 80 up till a certain height where there might have been some impact threat; I don't know, maybe someone wielding a hammer close to the conduit or something like that.
That 1 1/2" iron pipe sounds like "we always did it that way."
Try the yellow plastic coated stainless stuff, no joints and cheaper.
Although you may be in the land of Union job guarantees and it won't be allowed.
Gotta keep them good Union Workers working, even if it costs twice as much.
Joe H