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I’ve got a valley leaking and the shingles were applied in the closed cut method. (12/12 pitch)
The valley has to be stripped out because no felt or Ice/Water Guard was used (don’t get me started) but the main problem now I think is that it’s too cold (CT) to try to weave shingles or form them in the valley for closed cut installation.
I assume the old “Open valley” method is still acceptable?
Copper flashing or lead?
And then a bail bondsman after I choke this s.o.b.
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if you work the sun... it's never ( ok , almost never ) too cold...
california cut is pretty straight forward...
open valley more complicated..
woven is hard to make it look good
..strip the valley ..put on your ice & water.. relay your valley...
this has to be really boogered for a 12/12 to leak....
b but hey , whadda i no ?
*just an idea---you might want to check if the cut is on the correct side of the valley. some guys tend to cut them too close to center or over on the other side. an other thought would be to see if the roofer cut the tips of his shingles back along the valley(get rid of the point in the valley). believe it or not this is one of the biggest mistakes made. the point will catch water and pull it in along the top of the shingles until it finds a way in.i ahve seen water pulled in up to 8 feet from the valley and then leak in at a stack or other such protrusion.
*Wow, Thom, that triangle is really that important. I always cut it back but didn't realize it plays such an important role.How about a heat gun, just a thought.I have a theory about different kinds of valleys, I would like some of you pros to give me some feedback.If the pitch is not steep, an open valley is better because it do not trap leaves and debris which can trap moisture and hasten the deterioration of the shingles. On the other hand the pitch is shallow enough that water won't run under the shingles on the other side.If the pitch is steep and the two adjoining roofs are of the same pitch, I would go for a woven valley because trapping debris is not a problem any more and it is almost impossible for water to go under the shingles on the other side. If the pitch is steep and the two adjoining roofs are of different pitches, I think a close cut valley would serve the purpose with the cut on the steep side, almost like flashing the walls of a dormer with step flashing.Well, comments?
*I agree with Mike. For a 12/12 to leak I would suppose you have more problems than you think. That water should be running fast and furious almost straight downhill. The one thing I still wonder though is this, ice shield has been out for what, 15 yrs.?? I can't see how people use it as the only defense against water penetration in a valley under shingles when it hasn't been proven how long it actually will last over 20 or 30 or 40 yrs. depending on the life of your shingle. It might seem like overkill but in closed valleys I still place at least 14" galvy flashing on top of the ice shield. I guarantee all of my work but for some reason it's the roofs that worry me most when considering damage from a nature situation. To much expensive stuff under that roof. Rip out the valley, put in the ice shield(and flashing if you want), if your roofs fall from the same ridge it doesn't matter which side you do first. If not lay your shingles across and into the pitch with the greater ridge hieght first , lay the others over then cut the valley. If done correctly you should never have a leak with that pitch. I've roofed houses 12 months a year in every tempeture possible ,it shoudn't matter unless the shingle is a two or three ply architectual and then it's a judgement call if they crack as you bend them. Common sense takes over then. Good luck.
*Katman, don't blame lack of Ice Guard solely. Goodroofers on low budget outputs 35 years ago still keptit watertight. As to cold, where there's a will, there's a way. Work in the sun whenever possible; lay out individual shingles in the sun; build a fire for indirect heat; heat gun or careful torch.As for weaving, I approve and have never had a call-back from jobs in the Pa. Slate Belt roofed in the winter in the early '90's. A weave does bulk up the valley and can read thru after a few years of settling depending on products. Even if you don't weave it all,do it to your first three; helps on minimal gutter backups. If you do the whole valley and they're both the same pitch, it's every other all the way up. Set your main roof side of the shingle first and let the valley side flap. Go to the other roof, set the prominent side and let the valley side flap. Wear good knee pads and gently ease it in with your hand and a knee. Now find the least detrimental spot to put those sparse nails.Definitely prep with at least Ice Guard. Remember, weaving two different roof pitches the one side will get ahead of the weather line, especially on 3-tabs it can drown you. Watch this and double up to catch up the lagging side,maybe every 5-7 courses,CHECK!
*I do a lot of roof repair work,and a fair bit of it is on houses that have fairly new roofs.I see a lot of abnormal wear on ridge caps and valleys---that is considerably more than I would expect in those areas given the age of the roof.I feel that forcing that shingle into a valley or ridge bend during cold weather definitely damages the asphalt within the shingle. The cracking may not show up visibly at the time of installation or even for a few years----but the damage has been done and it is waiting to bite you in the rear.I wouldn't do a closed cut valley in these temps.A W valley will let you construct the valley with out severe bending of the shingle.I currently have a porch roof repair on the books with a 4/12 roof joining a 17/12 roof.A w valley would be tough to install for severall reasons on this roof so I am forced into an icegaurd/closed cut valley.This repair is waiting for a warm spell up in the 40's so I can make the proper bends in both the valley and over the 17/12 ridge.Even in the 40's the 17/12 ridge caps will be pushing the envelope.(this job has been waiting weeks for weather warm AND dry enough)In short there is a difference between can you---and should you.PS proper billing in august helps give the detachment to make the best longterm decisions during iffy winter work.The need for a paycheck can talk us into rationalizing border line work.good Luck all,stephen
*Guess what guys, it's not a terribly close-held secret that one of the major problems in roofing today is that the asphalt you get in today's market is not the same quality as that of 40 years ago since the quality of the crude materials isn't as high. Any technical person in the industry will tell you that.Also, we all think in terms of water running downhill to drain, when in fact it gets blown up under shingles and sucked into buildings under negative air pressure. Roofing 40 years ago did not have to perform as well as roofing today since forced-air systems, exhaust fans and direct-vent heating units were not as prevalent.
*Before the days of the sticky stuff, we used full lap in the valleys and along the eaves under the shingles...And flashed open valleys...No leaks unless the snow was two feet thick on the roofs, then they all leak no matter what. Have roofed many a winter with a salamander to heat shingles went in valleys and on ridges.near the frosty stream,ajAnd as Steve...buy the heavier shingles...
*Well, first of all, I'M not goin' up there on any 12/12!"Homey" don't climb that high any more plus I PAID for this roof myownself and they'll keep coming back until they get it right! ;>I have a strong suspicion it was wind-blown, but there is no ice guard in the valley, the cut edge of the shingles extends UP the opposite side of the valley and if those shingles were dubbed I'll eat the piece that came off.Betwixt a rock and a hard spot here because I've got to let the GC keep trying to fix it but he uses subs right off the unemployment line.If I thought I'd ever see the money I'd hire my own and present the bill...though I could through small claims, ha?Geez I hate doing that.Oh well, thanks to all and Happy holidays.
*Pd, get up a ladder and check to make sure that the points have been snipped. Many an inexperienced roofer will neglect this detail. I've personally fixed two for friends over the years and I'm not a roofer. It's a simple fix and all the goop and flashing in the world wont' work until you cut them back.Remember rookies...back cut!blue
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I've got a valley leaking and the shingles were applied in the closed cut method. (12/12 pitch)
The valley has to be stripped out because no felt or Ice/Water Guard was used (don't get me started) but the main problem now I think is that it's too cold (CT) to try to weave shingles or form them in the valley for closed cut installation.
I assume the old "Open valley" method is still acceptable?
Copper flashing or lead?
And then a bail bondsman after I choke this s.o.b.