My wife and I are in the planning stages of a fairly small addition (280 sf) to our den. The architect has just completed the plans and given them to 4 contractors for bidding. Before we begin discussions with any of the potential contractors, I would appreciate input from Contractors here on:
1) the process in general,
2) what to look out for,
3) what you like / don’t like about the bidding process,
4) suggestions for the homeowner to make the process easier / more efficient for homeowner and the contractor.
5) how to ensure we’re compariing “apples to apples” during the bid review
6) and any other words of wisdom you have to offer on the bidding or building process.
We are fair-minded people looking for a quality job at a reasonable price. We’re not looking for the best price – we’re looking for a good price for quality work done in a timely fashion.
Thanks for your input.
Terry
Delray Beach, FL
Replies
How did the archy select the contractors to invite to bid? 280 sf is not a large addition, so you might want to lean toward smaller contractors...the guys who do large houses will certainly do a good job, but their overhead may be too high, and they might have a hard time fitting a small job into their schedule. On the other hand, maybe they need a small job to fill in a slack period.
Who will make the selection...you or the archy? You must be in on the decision process. And you must select a contractore that you are comfortable with. If you get bad vibes just talking with him (or her), that should be a red flag.
The better the plans and specs, with as few open items as possible, the better the bids. Be wary of any bids that come back with just one lump sum price for the whole job...there should be some breakout for different areas of the work.
If you want to change the names and post the bids here, we can super-analyze them :)
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Be wary of any bids that come back with just one lump sum price for the whole job...there should be some breakout for different areas of the work.
off point here ...
but just why is that a bad thing?
I ask .. as that's pretty much the way I like to work.
They make all the decisions up front ... I have all the info ...
they get a price.
in a perfect world ... it'd work that way much more often.
They want a break down of each and every phase ... generally ... No.
Either the price is good ... or it ain't. I also don't have a "best price" ...
They want a lower price ... let's see what we can eliminate or swap for cheaper materials. The labor rates stay the same.
on another side note ... I already see the cabs and other work to be done by the HO and friends ... already ... there isn't enough money in this budget ... bet there's lots of HO supplied materials too.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Well, maybe wary was the wrong word. All my clients have expressed displeasure in getting a lump sum number for a multi-phase job. If all it includes is floor tile, or painting the outside of the house, thats one thing. But more involved jobs seem to sell better with some breakout. Maybe it's because the details have not been worked out, and they want to know what changes will do to the cost. So far all my detailed proposals have resulted in 20-40% upgrades by the time the contract was signed.
And I agree on the apparent amount of non-gc involvement here.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I guess we'll find out this week whether my approach is problematic or not - the 3 contractors bidding the job are coming today/tomorrow to take a look. As far as Jeff's comment on "not enough money in the budget", all I can say is the money is there (no loan required to pay for any of it). It just doesn't make any sense to pass up the savings on the cabinets - and I doubt anyone else here would pass on it either.
As for the "lots of homeowner supplied materials", the only thing we're supplying are the cabinets/granite. All other materials will be purchased by the GC. We did provide brands/part numbers for things like tile, exterior doors, sinks, faucets, etc. to make it easier for the GCs to accurately bid the job.
As a homeowner, I'd like to see some level of detail in the bids (e.g., site prep/foundation, concrete block/roof, electrical, plumbing, drywall/finishing). I should note that price is only one consideration that will help determine who we go with, the other two: our comfort level with the contractor and the project schedule.
Thanks for the comments - you've provided exactly what I was hoping for - the contractors view... I'll keep you posted on the progress.
Ok, if you really want to be able to compare apples to apples ... try this ... provide each bidder with a blank bid sheet that you create. Let them provide the quote on their letterhead, but ask / require them to fill out your form and attach it as a second page. You need to make it clear that you will not be selecting part of thje work from different contraftors, but that you want to be able to see where the cost goes. Also, it is very helpful to have a breakout for progress payments.
Don't get too detailed in the itemizatiuon ... for something like your project you can have 6-8 catagories. And I would ask that the overhead/profit be included in each catagory.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
ed.. i could probably win this job.. but i wouldn't fill out your sheet... this is not a public bidding process and there are no protections that are available in a "sealed bid public contract"...
i think your sheet and the info it requests will push away the very contractors he is trying to get
but hey, whadda i no Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I provide a detailed breakdown with all my proposals, so it's not a big deal to me. Hey ... I have to break it down to create the proposal anyway.
Just because the customer asks for a breakdown by catagory doesn't mean it's an open bid, or that anyone else will see the numbers. The customer needs to be open about the whole process... surely the contractors know or suspect that there is competition ... what's wrong with the customer knowing where the money goes? As long as the decision is based on the overall proposal
Never mind. We all do things differently. Life's too short to get my BVDs in a wad.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
As you say, everyone has their own way of doing things. The important thing for the customer and the gc is that there is a good fit.
We will provide a breakdown in that is what the customer wants but often the ho uses these numbers to try to negotiate a better price. As soon as this starts we usually bail out and from what I hear about these projects afterward, I am not sorry. Rarely does the customer actually save any money and rarely is he completely happy with the results. Trying to squeeze every last nickel out of a job will only make everybody wary and this lack of trust has a significant effect on the quality and spirit of the job. Anyone who underestimates the importance of this is in for a lot of frustration.
ed , i understand that it can be done that way.. i've done it in the past.. i'm merely pointing out that he should be prepared for some of the contractors to walk if he wants cost / price breakdowns...
and the ones who walk MAY be the ones he really wantsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i'd walk
or run
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Over the past two days, we've met with the 3 contractors that were ask to bid the job. When asked about how their bids would be structured, they all responded the same way : one price for the job. We're OK with that approach as long as the proposal is clear about what is / is not included in the bid price. I suppose that can be taken care of the contract. We should be receiving the bids in 5-7 days and we'll go from there.
When you go out to dinner, do you ask the waitress to break down the price of your meal for you? "What percentage of this meal price will be allocated for vegetables?"
Why do people insist on doing this with home building? You are purchasing a product, not the individual materials and services. Personally, I'm still trying to make a name for myself. There's no boat of mine going into the water on Saturdays. There's no vacation home or new house on the near horizon for me. Not that I don't work hard enough to deserve those things, they'll come in due time. I'll show you my numbers. I'll show you my markup and profit and maybe even material costs and wages. THEN I'll show you my insurance rates, tax rates, a current tool catalog with prices, and describe how a "normal" 12-14 hr day goes for me. You'll probably want me to charge more by the time I'm done! The majority of folks don't really understand how much is costs to run a construction business, in fact I'm still learning myself. And that is why some contractors may not want itemize their bids for you.
I certainly understand that you deserve and need to know what is and isn't included in the price they give you, but that can be done without itemizing or breaking down the proposal. It just opens the door for folks to begin the hammering down process. And that's when I walk.
"My calculator doesn't lie to me.....it tells me the price and that's that. If I could do the "job" for less it would have told me so. This isn't a hobby, and I don't need the practice, thank you."
If the HO want's to know the costs, how about suggesting cost plus and have the HO carry some of the risk, along with the pleasure of knowing where every penny went?;-)
I've done a couple of cost plus jobs this year. The most recent was a three season porch that another contractor started and bailed on. It went very well, but to be honest, in my limited experience (just went on my own 14 months ago) it works to the contractor's benefit more than the homeowner's. (but, that may have more to do with my current means of pricing that I'm constantly trying to fine tune) I'm definately open to cost-plus in many situations.
When you go out to dinner, do you ask the waitress to break down the price of your meal for you? If you go to the Piffin 5-star Restaurant, everything is included in the price, and sometimes the price isn't even listed on the menu. But for most restaurants, there's a price for the whore-divers, one for entrees, one for deserts, and one for drinks.
I am not advocating that the proposal should be broken down to every item, with OH&P listed too. But my proposals list catagories of work, and if the HO decides they want to delete the painting from the scope to save a grand, then they know up front what it's worth.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
I'm not saying that breaking down your bids is a bad thing.....for you. If it works well for you, then that's great. It's just been my experience that when folks want things broken down, they start picking things apart. Next thing you know they're thinking....."$1000 to paint that room? I could do that myself one night after work and save a grand." So the morning after they were supposed to paint, my plumber is there waiting to install the toilet and vanity, or the kitchen installer, or whoever and Mr HO has left me long note about how he got held up a work the night before and couldn't get to the painting. Or they want to bring in Cousin Willy who'll hang the board much faster and cheaper than my guy. Next thing I know, the schedule is blown, my plasterer won't talk to me, and the HO is blaming my painter for the crappy finish.
You want to know how to save a few bucks? Ok, well I guess we could do "this" and save "$X" or we can do "that" and save "$Y". I'd rather handle it like that, rather than itemizing everything and letting 'em pick and choose what they think is a good deal and a bad deal. You'll never hear about your line items that look low to them, only the ones that seem high.
To each his own though, this is just my two cents.
I see far less problem with Ed voluntarily supplying broken down pricng than with a customer who would demand it in a bid, but your points are very valid.
More to it too...
I have never ever done a job where every thing cost exacrly what I estimated it to be or was quoted to me at. Some things get higher and some i can get lower. It averages out hopefully on a bid job - or across enough of them, or when I am bidding, it is in a specialty like subing roofs where I use enough of everything that I can buy at discount to make up some over-runs occasionally elsewhere.
But if I itemized everything for the customer on the bid and then he hears that prices on paint have gone down, he wants a kickback on the rduced paint price but he doesn't want to kick in for more on the increaaase in plywood prices.
So if it is a bid, there is no itemization, period.
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he wants a kickback on the rduced paint price
Currently doing a kitchen remodel. Time to start installing the tile backsplash ... like, today. The HO had selected tile, and I had purchased enough for the splash. Now that the granite counters are in, she is having second thoughts about the tile, cuz it doesn't embellish the granite. So today she tells me she has been looking at tile, but is having a difficult time finding just what she wants. She mentions that she went to store X (a tile store), but she wonders if I will get as good a discount as my regular store. I told her to get whatever she wants, cuz she has an allowance of x dollars per foot. She went on to some other banal detail ... I wonder what she was getting at? My allowance is based on the advertised price, and it's none of her businees what the discount is.
And if you must know, it's 30% on ceramic and 25% on stone and thinset/grout.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
I'm not your HO, but can offer a homeowner's perspective. Admittedly, I'm a lot nicer than most folks, but. . .
Could it be that maybe she wasn't trying to find out your discount but that she didn't want to cost you extra money?
Leigh
^ 5 To dieselpig i totally agree....
Dieselpig,
When you run into a client who has had the experience of seeing 25 homes a year (twice a month) built since he was 5 years old, then your resturaunt anology will make sense.
Most people, by the time they are old enough to afford to have a custom home built have had 1000's of meals at resturaunts. And they still ask "what comes with this" when they try something new.
Aaannnnd, there is a teeeeny, tiny, little difference in scale between a $15.00 meal and a $250,000.00 home.
BTW, do you expect a %15 tip when the home is delivered???
SamT
Sam,
You're a troll, you know that don't you? And not even a very good one at that. I used to think you were a regular sort of guy, now I'm convinced that you are a very special kind of idiot. Here's a news flash for you....it was an anology used to illustrate a point.
BTW, if you choose to embarass yourself by not reading the menu before ordering then that's your business. I'm sure that waitress earns her 15% fielding your moronic questions.
And in case you forgot......bite me.
Diesel,
What do you think of me when I agree with what you say???
Because I do agree with you a lot of the time. Of course, when you have said what I would have said, I see no reason to repeat you so you wouldn't see that.
IIRC, when you have said it (whatever it was) in a really great manner, I would say something then about the quality of your statement.
>>I used to think you were a regular sort of guy, now I'm convinced that you are a very special kind of idiot.
I haven't changed, it's just that some times you are a genius, and some times you are an idiot.
Just like all the rest of us.
And in case you forgot......The doctor has me on a low cholesterol diet now.
SamT
aaaaaaarrrrrgggghhhhh!
Look, enough mudslinging, eh? I'm willing to agree that we disagree. I agree to the fact that I am a genius and you're an idiot, however, you disagree. However, I disagree with you agreeing to you being the genius and I the idiot. Agreed?
Maybe you're both half right.
All geniuses think that everyboidy else is idiots.
I know 'cause I'm a genius, LOL
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ok
As long as we are equal, which I believe, it matters not if we are all idiots or all genius. Just equal, which nobody likes to admit to.
Dan
Because a potential customer asked you for some information? Seems like some folks here are uncomfortable with even being asked a question. From a customer point of view I just don't get that.
When I ask one of the contractors this question, I got an answer I could live with, and it wasn't "yes I will provide the cost breakdown". He explained that the details I was looking for regarding what is / is not included in his price would be included in the contract, but in a nutshell that's everything on the drawings. That addressed my real concern. By listening enough to understand my concern, he addressed the issue in a way that made me feel comfortable. He's already got a leg up on the competition before he even submitted his bid.
When I ask that same question of one of the other contractors, he went on and on about why he doesn't do this - but he didn't ask the real obvious question - why do you want the breakdown, how will you use it, what concern are you trying to address? This would have led to him understanding the point in the previous paragraph.
Part of every job is Sales - and being a good Sales person is listening to the customer's needs / concerns and addressing them in a way that builds the customer's confidence in your ability to execute the job.
Part of every job is Sales - and being a good Sales person is listening to the customer's needs / concerns and addressing them in a way that builds the customer's confidence in your ability to execute the job
You are right about this if you are talking about a contractor who is looking for work. Some of us here, Mike and Piffin among them, are not in this category. They are not looking for work; they are looking for customers. They want customers who are looking for the quality and professionalism that they bring to the table. I have no doubt that such customers will be impressed by whatever presentation they choose to make. You should not be fooled into thinking that they are not sizing up the customer with a very experienced eye as to whether they want to work for that particular customer. They will be spending a lot of time with their customers and have no desire to spend it unpleasantly and in conflict.
My own experience is that people who seek us out because they want us to do the work, who have done the research to find out who we are and what we can do, make the best customers. Those who are bidding a job out have a slightly different profile. We still will bid the jobs and get our share of the bids but our history has indicated that we should be wary.
I've got more time tonight so I'm glad to elaborate on this whole thing here, but my comment to Mike was more of an aside and less to you. i'll explain the reason why I said it after I build some background for your understanding. We have had this same conversation here several times before so we all need to have some more patience when it comes up again from somebody new.
I personally find it rare that I do any bid work. A previous comment here wasn't even quite right. I don't go looking for customers. They come to me and I have the problem of weeding out the ones who are worth working with. I am in that fortunate position by virtue of the fact that I am a bit of a perfectionist artisan/designer/craftsman/salesman combined with the fact that I have chosen to live in a place where such craftsmen are valued.
Think about that word "value" and what it means to you.
Some folks think of spending the least amt of money they can to get by on for a product recieved, produced or installed.
others think of it in terms of getting the highest quality for whatever money it takes to be able to recieve it.
There are others somewhere in between.
People who are looking for the product I can provide are willing to depend on my reputation and judgement and we negotiate terms on which we can work together. That may be different for every job. I may give a fixed price, I may work time and materials, I may do it cost plus percentage, I may take care of it as a project manager.
But what i do not do is to bid against other contractors, because when a "bid" is asked for in that setting, I know that the customer is looking for the lowest price, rather than the best job, and I do not compete on price. I compete on quality of work and relationship. Most of my jobs are remodeling and of a type where one cannot anticipate every possible line item and price it ahead of time.
There was a time when I did participate in the bid wars. Far too often I saw "contractors" lowball a price and then write a contract that openned windows for change orders on purpose, so that the upcharges later added more to the cost than my bid had been in the first place. I would spend a week on a bid, to lose the work to a shyster and then later have the owner tell me they wish they had gone with my offer in the first place.
one I can remember in particular was a three ply BUR roof job that I bid at about $24K. Others weeere at $23K, and $25K and one at 19K. I knew the costs would run over that and wondered how they could do it, but Oh Well, I had other work.
Three years later, they were out of business, and the building owners called me to check on some leaks. The roof installed was not a three ply. It was only a poorly done two ply! The owners had screwed themselves by going for the cheapest price and not knowing how to select and inspect the product.
In various forms, I and others here can repeat that story a hundred times over.
The way you avoid that sort of problem as a homeowner and potential customer is to select a contractor/builder/remodelor by searching according to reputation and following up when you see other good work done and talking to friends and neighbors who have had similar jobs done, to find out who does the good work in your area. Then strike up a conversation and begin to see it this is the type person you want working on your house. References and reputation are everything.
It may be less important for a three or four day re-roof where they are in and gone again if they are the kind who pee on the bushes and play super loud heavy metal music and wear shorts that should have been used for paint rags last year and park trucks with loud tailpipes on toip of your wife's petunias, but when you are considering a four month remodel, that sort of thing can get old quick.
So it is your responsibility to seek out someone with the same concerns that you do for your home.
Now, from my side of the relationship, I have to support my crew and my family on your work. I have some responsibility to previous cutomers to remain in business so I can continue to take care of them too, if anything should go wrong instead of leaving them with the typical taillight warrantee. This all means that I need to qualify customers and use my past experiences and judgement to select people who will pay their bills promptly and will not create scenarios wherein workers get paranoid or frustrated to the point they do not look forward to showing up for work. One bad customer can ruin a company as easily as one bad roof can ruin your house.
So since this is a two way street, I describe it as dating, to allegorize it. That first sales call wil be just that. I won't try to kiss you on our first date. Like I say, a simple roof job is more straight forward but still there is potential for negatives when rushing in too fast....
Now all of this brings me back to my comment to Mike, that I will walk away from a customer who demands an itemized cost list on a bid job.
A bid is a firm price for a fixed product. If i say I will re-roof your house for twenty grand and do it according to xyz, then that is what I will do but you have no business knowing what I pay for tarpaper and nails. Past experience has taught me that the kind of customers who make this sort of demand are nit-picking troublemakers. There is never any satisfaction in working for them and they never show any appreciation.
But a negotiated contract to produce a job at cost plus profit percentage would be different. There is an estimate up front, a budget planned, and categories tallied up. I wqould bill by the item so I would estimate by the item and the customer would pay by the item. There would be a measure of trust built before getting deeply into this relationship.
The whole point being, that a bid and an estimate are two totally diferent animals and too many potential clients use the terms interchangeably. Definintg those terms should be right at the forefront of your meetings with contractors, because if you ask for a bid and he gives you an estimate - or the other way around, you will both end up unhappy, no matter how good the roof job is.
I think you have recieved varied responces here simply because there are contractors who prefer each way of doing things, according to what has evolved to be best for them, mixd in with a few off the wall comments which are common on any worksite. One of the peculiarities of BT is that while there are pros with good advice here, we are here to relax too, so you have to shake and sift without lewtting it hurt your feelings.
now start checking those references....
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Thanks for taking the time to respond in such detail. I am confident that any of the 3 contractors I've spoken with will do a quality job because my Architect has worked with these 3 almost exclusively on his projects over the past 15 years. They are all financially stable, have been in the business 15- 25 years, and do excellent work. Price is a consideration, but fortunately for us, it does not have to be the most important consideration. My wife has MS and is homebound for the most part, so we are looking for someone we are comfortable with who can execute the project in a timely fashion. I don't intent to "negotiate" the price as I assume final prices will be presented and I'm willing to pay for quality.
As far as the bidding process goes, if this project goes well and I have another come up in the future, I would likely call the same person for the next job and avoid the bidding process. However, without prior experience, it seems the way to go on this job. It's just imporant to me that we both understand what is / isn't included so problems can be avoided where possible. I liked the way one of the contractors answered my question when I ask about the foundation that's going over an area where a huge oak tree now resides. He said very simply that if we run into major roots that have to be removed while we're digging the footers, I'm not going to stop work and look for you to approve the labor, I'm going to continue work and will let you know the additional labor charges. He also indicated that this appears to be the only area where he sees the possibility for additional costs.
We are fair people looking for a quality job with a contractor we "connect" with. Based on the meetings we had, we've already narrowed it down from 3 to 2. The final determination will be made on when the job can start and the price to a lesser degree (only if there's a substantial difference that can't be explained). I would say we've already selected the contractor, but my wife is leaning towards one, and I the other, but isn't that a requirement when you're married? :)
I appreciate the time you and other people have taken to respond to my questions. You've helped me understand the contractor's point of view.
Best Regards,
Terry
Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful post. I appreciate all the professional perspectives on this site--as a homeowner, it helps me to do a better job on MY side of the bargain.
We've recently worked with some wonderful subs during upgrades on my home, and I have no problem with a single number for a bid on jobs like roofing, rewiring, etc., as long as we're both clear on exactly what that involves (understanding the scope is important for both sides on any project.)
We had a roof replaced, the house rewired and some other work done, and worked with a number of different companies. Each provided a fixed price or not-to-exceed quote, and I had no problem with that. Price was part of the consideration, but not the major consideration: quality of work, and our ability to work with the contractor was.
For the rewiring, these guys were in our house 3-4 days a week for over a month. They were there shortly after I got up, there when I left for work, there when I came home for lunch, etc. They were fantastic, went out of their way to be out of the way, be considerate, let us know what was going on, what they needed, etc. I would hire them again or provide a reference for them in a heartbeat. Because of the type of work (rewiring a 1957 house) they provided a NTE quote, and actually ended up a few dollars under the quoted price, which I didn't expect.
The roofers, while they did manage to break a storm window they didn't tell us about, did an excellent job on the roof (flat roof, EPDM roofing), and I would hire them again, as well.
Recently, on some property in the country, we've had a slab poured and a septic system put in. For both those jobs, again it was a single-price quote (neither written, by the way, since most things are still done on a handshake out there). Again, no problem; we'd gotten recomendations for these guys, knew their reputations, discussed what would be included, what we needed to do, so both sides knew what to expect.
If I were building a house, though, and I hope to sometime this year, I would expect more detail in the quote. I don't want to know your cost--if we've gotten that far in the process I've already checked you out and assume you're not trying to screw me. However, I do want to know, in general, what the price breakdown is for each area: roof, hvac, foundation, etc. Is that unreasonable?
Leigh
Are breakdowns unreasonable? Of course not, depending on the reason why they are asked for. I suspect that what you are after is for budget figures and general decisions. That is something that with me, you would have covered early on.
For instance:
You might be considering the difference between saving old wood floors to refinish or replacing them with new select maple vs antique heart pine.
or you might be comparing radiant in floor heat on a boiler vs just replacing your current fan forced air heat from a furnace.
or you might want to compare the idea of Hadiboard to wood shingle siding, or wood cedar shakes on the roof to architectural asphalt shingles
But all of these should be discussed in general budget terms before getting into the definitive estimate or bidding process. Nothing will make us tear our hair out like telling the contractor in the beginning that you just want a basic modest job with asphalt shingles and refinish the floor and then after spensing a week on a bid, to hear you say, " now, how much more will it cost to change that flooring in this room to one product and in that room to another material" and then after revising the costs, to find out that you really wanted carpet through the whole house anyways but were just curious or whatever. That bespeaks great disrespect for the contractor's time and it signals that you are an ambivalent customer who is likely to go through the entire project undoing and redoing things.
A good company will develope momentum as it moves through a remodel or a new house. Any change brought in at almost any point will destroy that momentum which translates to higher cost and time delays. who absorbs those costs is one item that has to be decided on at the very betginning.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the information--I appreciate your perspective and the time you've taken to respond.
With the breakdown, I wouldn't be looking for decision points--we've been discussing the impact of possible choices with the timberframer and the person we're now looking at as the GC. We want to be as solid in our decisions as we possibly can before we start on this project, precisely because of the points you've made.
A good company will develope momentum as it moves through a remodel or a new house. Any change brought in at almost any point will destroy that momentum which translates to higher cost and time delays. who absorbs those costs is one item that has to be decided on at the very betginning.
I understand this completely--it's the same thing in my line of work, where changes requested by the customer after spec development equal cost and delay.
Your clients are lucky ones. Not all the builders we've looked at have been willing to discuss the cost/price impacts of various choices with us. I think some have forgotten what it's like to NOT intimately understand the impact different variables can have on a project, or that a properly educated client makes for a better one.
Thanks again for your input. This board is a valuable resource.
Leigh
I agree on samll job a small guy might do better
but a big guy might do better too. A bigger guy might have larger overhead , but also have the resources to do the job with seasoned pros and efficent time lines.
However around here getting a big guy to do a small job might be tough as they might all be out buiolding p bigger projects already for the summer
One lump bid might be ok when you are asked to ball park, but comparing apples to apples is important.
2x6 on 16"o.c with ply sub sheetis is more then 24"o.c with osb
windows , listing 6 windows on a bid compared to listing the different sizes and manufacturers can be a bit of a cost difference too.
So how much inforamtion on a bid can be important , also insufficent information can lead to change orders, change orders are above and beyond contracts adn can take a low price higher then the original high contractor
so written info is important
its never any fun at the endo of a project to play the
but you said she said game
good luck
1) the process in general,
We do competitive bidding, non-competitive fixed price, and time and materials work, and are comfortable with all three processes. They each have their advantages.
2) what to look out for,
You (or the architect) need to carefully consider whom you want to bid. This is especially true of an addition where you will be living with the crew for the duration of the job.
3) what you like / don't like about the bidding process,
I like the fact that someone else has made all the decisions at the start and all I have to do is come up with a price. This of course requires a complete set of plans and specifications. If these do not exist, there is no point in bidding. It is possible to negotiate from a proposal to a final contract, but I have never been entirely comfortable with this process and it can waste a tremendous amount of time. Of course, let work get scarce and my tune will change.
4) suggestions for the homeowner to make the process easier / more efficient for homeowner and the contractor.
5) how to ensure we're compariing "apples to apples" during the bid review
The answer to 4 and 5 is the same. A good set of plans and specs. Don't ask the builder what you want; tell him. After you have chosen your guy, then you can discuss changes and substitutions. The hard part is choosing that guy.
6) and any other words of wisdom you have to offer on the bidding or building process.
In the current market you are in a tough position. We wouldn't be interested in bidding on a small addition at this point. We might do one for someone who wanted us to do the work for a fixed price or time and materials, when we had time to do the work. That said, there are plenty of contractors whose bread and butter is your type of project and they are always on the lookout for future work of this kind. My suggestion is to find someone in your area who specializes in this work, who comes with the recommendation of someone you know and who is personally compatible with you. Tell this guy what you want to do, ask him for his suggestions and a price and tell him to put you on his schedule. You may have to wait to get your project started but you will be happy with the final result. Good luck
How complete are your drawings and specs? How well do you know and trust your architect? They make mistakes to. For instance, is the finish of door hardware defined? He/she may have specified bronze but you wanted bright brass. How will the contractor bid? Make sure the plans and specs are clear and concise. "Match existing" on the drawings does not define the scope. You want to make sure all the contractors are bidding from the same documents. There is nothing worse than losing a bid because the other guy bid something cheaper and the homeowners did not get what they wanted.
Get references from friends and neighbors of contractors who have done projects for them. Invite those contractors to bid. Always get references, contact the owners, and visit the projects.
Image in our business, like many businesses, is everything. You don't want the "used car salesman" contractor but one that is professional. A gun rack and a dog in the truck may not be a good sign though not necessarily bad.
I have never accepted a project when I was the low bidder. References and the value offered is what you should look for. Value lingers long after the cheap price fades.
Depending on the cost vs. budget, you may want to consider a "value engineering" approach. The contractor(s) may be able to offer alternative materials or processes that could lower the cost.
Know matter how sure or committed you are to not spend more than the contracted amount, unforeseen conditions occur. Have 10% of the cost set aside as a contengiency.
"I have never accepted a project when I was the low bidder. References and the value offered is what you should look for. Value lingers long after the cheap price fade."
TKH
Would you care to elaborate on your statement above. I have a lot of differing thoughts but really would like to give you a chance to explain your methods and reasoning.
t
First, let me say I'm not a contractor. I'm an engineer in a manufacturing plant, and in that capacity I've hired a number of contractors over the last 19 years. I also had a custom home built.
People are used to calling request for a price a request for bid, but what I think you actually want are quotes, not bids. The major difference is that a bid is non-negotiable, and a quote is. After you select the contractor you desire, you wish to be able to negotiate (for example, substitute materials, slight changes to scope of work, set a schedule, etc.), therefore, you want quotes.
In commercial jobs, it's common to invite all the contractors to attend a meeting at the same time and place, and review the job together. That way, they all hear the same story from you, they get to hear the same answers, and see the same site conditions. It helps to ensure they are all pricing out the same work and materials, or all know equally and fairly what leeway the have. Then they all go away and prepare their quotes, including, if any, alternatives they wish to suggest or features they wish to highlight over their competition. In residential jobs, though, I have not seen it done that way, so some contractors may be weirded out by it.
I agree with all the others that the more detail is specified up front, the more smoothly the entire job (not just the quoting), goes. We're not talking about anally-retentiveness, like how many nails to use (unless you have hurricane or seismic considerations, for example), but what materials, finishes, doors & windows, shingles, etc. to use, whether the foundation is poured or block, and so forth.
Ok, let's assume the bids/quotes are back. If they are mailed/faxed to the archy, insist that you get a complete copy of each before he has any more contact with the bidders. (BTW, I don't agree with the comment about bids and quotes being different...I think that's a word game. Both should reflect the full price based on the supplied drawings. You will get into trouble if they are titled 'estimates' or similar.) Make a simple spreadsheet, listing the bidders and their numbers. If they are broken down into catagories, try to correlate one to another, but unless the archy provuided a bid sheet to be filled in, there will probably be different formats and catagories.
Compare the numbers, both the total bottom line and the catagories...like electrical, carpet, etc. All the bids will have different numbers, but you will see a pattern, and if one bid is way high or low, it could be a sign that the bidder forgot something or misunderstood the plans. I think it is fair to contact that bidder and just say 'your bid is substantially higher in electrical...you might want to check your numbers' and let it go at that. DO NOT divulge any actual dollar amounts. He might come back and say 'the plans didn't show it, but I think you need to upgrade the main breaker panel' and then you know why he's high, and that he has truly examined the plans and the house. However, a good contractor would show something like that as an alternate to the basic work.
Once you select a contractor, then is the time to ask him to revise his bid based on either cahnges you wantr to make, or as someone mentioned ask him if there are other ways of doing the work that he thinks would be better.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Thanks for the excellent input. To answer some of the questions in the replies....
Our architect has developed detailed plans and drawings for the basic addition (foundation, trusses, window/door wind requirements,etc.) I developed the electrical plan indicating exactly where we want receptacles/switches, how we would like them switched, etc. The architect attached them to the drawings and indicated final location subject to homeowner approval at rough-in.
I completed the kitchen design with the help of a friend who is a dealer for a cabinet manufacturer. He will order for me at his cost (what a friend!) and his son (professional kitchen installer) and I will install them. We've already selected the granite and placed a deposit to hold it (golden wave for the main countertops, villa rica for the island).
The architect sent the plan to 3 contractors he's worked with alot over the past 15 years that specialize in smaller additions. I also added a contractor that a friend of mine highly recommended.
We've already selected the french doors (PGT Windguard - the only type we found cost effective) and windows and gotten a quote ($13K - the lowest price we've found for 4 single doors with 3 ft. side lights on each side, 2 6-foot french doors, 1 cabana door). We have also developed a list of the materials (e.g., exact tile/color/grout color, sink, disposal, faucet, fans, etc.) and will provide to the contractors. I assume that contractors will almost always get better prices than a homeowner? We should have provided that in the bid package, but weren't quite ready, though it may not be too late since we haven't yet heard from any of the contractors.
Once we've gotten the initial bids back and reviewed them with the architect, I plan to schedule an interview with each contractor to review the bid and determine if there's a match in style / personality. We will ask the architect for his recommendation, but we will make the final decision based on the bids and the interviews. We're looking for a fair price, but are willing to spend a little more if we feel more comfortable with one contractor vs. another.
As part of my continuing research on the process, yesterday I picked up a book called "Take Charge of Your Home Renovation - Everything you need to know for a successful home renovation". From the scan I did last night, it appears to explain the important areas (providing detailed plans, start / completion dates, insurance, etc.).
One last question - what's the most effective way to deal with the completion date? From what I've read, including a completion date with penalties is a recipe for higher bids. What other methods can we use to ensure we don't get too much schedule creep?
Thanks again for the invaluable input.
What other methods can we use to ensure we don't get too much schedule creep? You need to be realistic. Whe you meet with the contractors, tell them what you would like to have for start and finish dates, and see if they can acomodate that. One may tell you that he can't start for another 6 weeks, but maybe he can do the job in two weeks less time than the others...so is it more important to start by a certain date, or to keeo the construction time to a minimum? Since you have already made most ... or all ... of the material selections, that will help. Be available for daily quickie phone calls or meetings with the contractor to see how things are going, and be ready to make quick decisions if there are any questions. Don't keep looking over his shoulder or micro-managing, but be interested and involved. And try not to make any changes.
BTW you may encounter some resistance from the bidders to using material that you have already purchased.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
Other than the granite, which will be installed by the stone company where I purchased it, and the kithen cabinets which will be installed by me and a friend, the other materials have only been selected, not purchased. We thought we could improve the speed / accuracy of the bidding process if we provided the part numbers of desired doors, tile, sinks, faucets, etc...
Thanks for your input - I'll keep your advice in mind as we move forward.
What other methods can we use to ensure we don't get too much schedule creep?
A suggestion is to establish fixed start and completion dates. Let the contractor know the importance to you of meeting these timelines but be flexible and allow him, before the contract is signed, to adjust his quoted schedule timelines to be able to meet any written deadlines. As the contract proceeds any changes especially in the form of unforseens and additional work you must give reasonable extentions to the final deadline to meet this extra work. With this addtional work when the GC prepares the cost sheet for sign off have them add the additional amount of time needed as well.
Another suggestion when forming the payment schedule I would suggest you base them on milestones as opposed to dates because a payment at week three may not be justified if the GC has only been on site for 1 1/2 weeks. Instead a payment will be issues after demo, then after foundation, then after framing......
These are only suggestions and don't try to burden the GC either with too many details and too much paper work not to be able to do the job you hired him for.
If you think in terms of bonuses rather than penalties, you have a better chance to get realistic bids and a schedule that the builder can meet. Of course this is a contractor's opinion. Probably more important than meeting a particular schedule is whether the contractor continues to conscientiously work on the job regardless of the schedule. An unrealistic schedule, especially in the face of changes, is likely to discourage the builder from giving his best and his most timely work.
My thanks to everyone for their feedback - it will help us get this project started off (and finished) on the right foot...
A few points to consider when you start -
Try not to change your mind in midstream, it costs money and can delay completion.
Be available with answers if the contractor has questions, this often means something isn't working out as per plan and again can cost money (yours or his) and delay completion.
Establish a payment schedule and be sure that you live up to it. Your contractor likely has made comitments to subs and they all are quite serious about being paid on time
Create an environment where the work can be carried out in an efficent and orderly manner. (In other words get your stuff out of the way)
This will make you a client to be treasured and will be reflected in the finish product.
I've been on this site for years, reading and learning. I've been building a house for four years 4 days at a time and I've taken a lot home from here. Although you can get a lot of information here I would suggest you check a book store also. There are several titles addressing your questions. The difference is that you can take your time to read and digest a larger amount of information.
Make sure you get bids for the same set of specs. Many times after talking about options with several contractors the finishes change as the process defines itself. Stick to the original specs so you can compare apples to apples then discuss those changes with the contractor you choose.
Thought I'd give the forum an update on where we are.... We received bids from three contractors recommended by my Architect. The low bidder came in 25% lower than the other two. One of the two high bidders explained that some of his sub-contractors were so busy, they didn't do detailed bids, so he was sure there was some fat that could be trimmed, but likely not more than 10-15%. The other contractor's price was reasonable on the basic 280 sf addition, but was outrageous in other areas like:
- $2080 ea. (labor only!) to replace four 9'0 aluminum french doors (2 side lights)
- $3000 (labor only!) to cut the hole in a concrete block wall for a new 6'0 aluminum french door
- $12 / sf to tear out old tile and install new tile that costs $5 per sf.
The 3rd contractor was reasonable all the way around and we signed a contract last night and give him a deposit... Now the fun begins... Or in 4-6 weeks when the plans are approved by the city!
Thanks for all the advice. It came in handy.
Terry
did you sign with the one 25% below the other two, or the one who said there was some fat in his bid that could be trimmed ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Couple of comments ... meant to be constructive comments ...
$3000 (labor only!) to cut the hole in a concrete block wall for a new 6'0 aluminum french door Sounds fair to me. I have not seen the wall, but here's some things that could push the price up higher than you anticipate. Could be a load bearing wall, so he has to temporarily support the load while the opening is cut. Then he has to install some type of header or lintel to carry the load when the temp supports are removed. Might run across several pieces of rebar inside the wall, or maybe even filled cores.
$12 / sf to tear out old tile and install new tile that costs $5 per sf. I amd doing a tile job now where I have to remove old ceramic on a concrete slab, then install new. I assume the $12 is labor only, or labor and thinset. Figure $4-5/sf for a new installation. That leaves $7-8/sf to demo the old tile, scrape off the old thinset so there's a relatively smooth, level surface for the new tile, and haul off and dispose of the old tile. It's a bitch of a job, and worth every penny of the $7-8. At the end of the day, I am willing to pay someone $10/sf to do the demo and disposal part.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Good Luck. Glad you have a direction to move now. hope it all works out, but the outrageous prices you mention ar enot all that outrageous, depending on jobsite conditions.
For instance, that large door replacement - how far is it from the drop site for the truck and is it aropundf the corner and up/down the hilll. imporoperly installed units like this are pone of the most common sources for HO complaint and can be a source of future rot in the sills if not done right.
Cutting a hole in a crete wall will produce more dust than anyuthing else you do to the house totalled for a year. Just the dust prevention and control measures can add a grand to the cost of that one job, then figure out if this is a load bearing wall and if so, that three gand sounds cheap to me.
I'll glasdly pay 12/ft to tear up and relay those tile.
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all three of those prices listed sound fine to me.
that was from one of the top 2 guys right? How much difference between those two?
If the bottom line was fine ... this shows the main problem with breaking down prices ... customers react ... wrongly ... to prices they "think" are out of line ... when they're really not.
bad taste in mouth ... they take the low bidder ....
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry