Got a visit from OSHA on the job today. It was a suprise inspection. Never had that happen before, they must be bored. Everything checked out good for my guys. The bricklayer not so well. Some infractions that I told him to correct yesterday and he didnt do them. Now he thinks I called them.
Whatruanidiot? Nobody in their right mind (MOSTLY I am) would do that. Even if I had called they wouldnt have made it as fast as they did. Plus you should NEVER smart mouth the OSHA guy like he did. We almost had him talked into a warning for him till he did that.
Where there’s a will, there are 500 relatives
Replies
One of the roofers accused us of stealing his microwave, I never saw it but I can imagine how many layers of disease were caked onto the plate. Who steals a dirty old microwave. The guys laughed at him for asking.
On your subject, we've had those visits, and a big mouth doesn't get you anywhere, shut up do what he says and hopefully you'll never meet again.
Was this a commercial or residential site ?
Never heard of them showing up residential if there wasn't a problem bringing them there.
Allow me to be the first to tell you it does happen.
1st. time for me the inspector spotted the house from the nearby highway, returned, parked on the berm and took photo's though a Telephoto lens, then came by and wrote us up.
That was back in 1979-80.
Have had them drop by more than once since then, once got a gang visit from OSHA, BI, DEQ, and Workmans Comp. Hit a busy part of town and visited every job site, spent all day writing contractors up .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Its a commercial site. We're building a hospital.Where there's a will, there are 500 relatives
Location, location, location.I was in a safety class where they told us right out that if our job is right on the highway and they see anything questionable when just driving by, they will stop, unless enroute to a hot investigation.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I did not know they could do that?!!?
Now I do. thanks.
My FIL owns a machine shop and told me that OSHA always make an appointment. This allows him to inform his workers an hour before over the PA so they can put their safety glasses on. Anyway, he told me they came by not to long ago and were inspecting his paint booth. The inspector pointed to the two brand new $100+ respirators hanging beside the booth and asked if all the workers had been properly trained to use them and where was all the paperwork pertaining to them. FIL says no training and no papers. Inspector says that'll be $500. FIL says "what about this box of paper masks, is training and paperwork required for them?" OSHA says "no, everybody knows how to use a paper mask". FIL takes the two $100+ masks and throws them in the trashcan, says "okay, we'll just use paper masks" OSHA says "OK" and scratches the fine.
Later, he had one of his guys dig the masks out of the trash. Now the workers have to hide them when the OSHA inspection announcement comes over the PA.
Those kind of stories make me nervous to think OSHA might show up on my job.
DC
I used to be the traffic control and work zone inspector for the highway department.
I was on a site one night, checking the barricades, where a contractor was putting a 30-inch sewer main in, about ten feet below grade. He had a trailer full of trench jacks sitting on a trailer, but none in the trench, where three guys were doing the bedding for the pipe.
This guy stops across the street, and comes over. He asks, me who is in charge, and I point him towards the foreman. He goes over, and informs the foreman that he is the OSHA inspector. He's not on the clock, but that the foreman needs to get the guys out of the trench, and the jacks off the trailer and in the trench before the guys went back in. The foreman essentially tells him since he's not on duty, he can put it where the sun doesn't shine.
The OSHA inspector gets in his car and leaves. Forty-five minutes later the OSHA inspector is back in his OSHA pickup, and with the ticket book. Now there are 4 guys in the trench. So, he writes the foreman a ticket for $2000 ($500 per man in the trench).
Next night at three in the morning he is back. This time he finds three guys in the trench still with no trench jacks. Writes $4500 in tickets, this time it's $1500 per man.
Next night he comes back, and finds four guys in the trench with the trench jacks still on the trailer. Writes a $20,000 ticket, at $5000 per man.
Next night the foreman was gone. The owner of the company was on site, and the trench jacks were in place, when the OSHA inspector showed up.
I worked around underground contractors for another twenty years in that town, and never saw that foreman again, even as an operator.
now that is how you shoot your mouth off. Going down in flames
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y55wvdcCJfk
We had a OSHA inspector show up at our house (official address) around Christmas. I was nervous as hell. But he looked at our Safety meetings. Came back the next day to talk w/a driver and look at our trucks. Everything was kosher. I am glad he didn't ask to hear backup alarms. We have a heck of a time keeping them going.
Wrote up a paperwork violation. No dollar fine. Lack of Hazard Assesment. Mail in the correction. Fairly innocous.
OSHA inspectors are fairly regular on residential sites here.
Edited 2/13/2009 12:07 am ET by Scrapr
I suppose it depends on where you are but we usually see them when there is an accident somewhere. Then they fan out and hit everyone nearby and most get written up for something.
from my past exprience if you fight with OHSA, its going to cost you, but if you just admit you are lost and dont know what to do, they will jump huddles to help you. The alpha dogs always loose with OHSA
"The alpha dogs always loose with OHSA"
Wouldn't that make them "not the alpha dog" if they loose a fight? ;)
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If an opinion contrary to your own makes you angry, that is a sign that you are subconsciously aware of having no good reason for thinking as you do.... Bertrand Russell
http://www.drawingwithlight.smugmug.com
Thats it then. I forgot there was a crane accident on the other side of town. No injuries but the crane fell over. Claims he was there the day before taking pictures.Where there's a will, there are 500 relatives
We have had an ongoing realtionship with OSHA over the years. Here is what we do. When we start a high profile job (in the middle of town, LOTS of scaffolding) we ask OSHA for an inspection. My understanding is that if you ask them, they will come at no charge, help/instruct you correct any problems and the will not write you a fine.
This does two things- first, you get the word straight from the man in charge what is OK and what is not. Second, it really knocks down the chance that they will stop by again. In th ten years we have been doing this, they have only stopped by once again. That time they dinged us for two things. They found one extension cord that was missing its grounding plug (no biggie, we "destroyed" the cord and put it in the dumpster, no fine) and the second was that we didn't have the 3 ring binder with all of the MSDS sheets for the materials on site. We explained that we normally have a copy in the site supervisors truck, but his truck was in the shop that day. It was the god's honest truth, but no luck- I'm sure they had heard that one before.
All in all, I think this has worked very well for us.
I meditate, I burn candles, I drink green tea, and still I want to smack someone.
Yes, in most locations the OSHA has two branches; training, and enforcement.
The training side will come to onsite advisory inspections, and will also do group training classes. If you have a large firm, it can save you a large chunk of change to have every foreman and superintendent go with the training annually.
I used to include OSHA job site safety training of all supervisory personnel of the subcontractors, as part of the agreement when I was hiring subcontractors for land development projects. The last thing I needed was to get somebody killed in a trench cave in.
I worked for a large developer, who got cited because a guy working for one of the subs, got killed when his cousin missed a stud while sheathing the exterior walls, and put a nail in his heart. All of the supervisory and management personnel had to got through a 3-day OSHA course, as part of the plea agreement on the citation. the almost amusing part is that none of the guys from the subcontractors had to go.
"I worked for a large developer, who got cited because a guy working for one of the subs, got killed when his cousin missed a stud while sheathing the exterior walls, and put a nail in his heart."
Wow.
I've always wondered about that happening. I guess you can't take anything for granted when using tools that can kill you in multiple ways.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
My understanding is that if you ask them, they will come at no charge, help/instruct you correct any problems and the will not write you a fine.
I've gotten busted twice. Both times somebody called me in and they had to do a site inspection. In both cases they told me they'd already done a drive-by and didn't see anything worth stopping for. On the 1st bust, we were working one block way from the OSHA office. Both times, I only had to pay 10% of the fine.
Anyway, after the 2nd bust, I started calling OSHA every time we had a high profile job and asked them to come and inspect/instruct. Every time, I was told it would be 9-12 months before they could get to me. But, I made a note of who I talked to and when I talked to them and made sure they knew I was noting that info. Haven't seen an enforcement officer in several years.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
NW Oregon here. I have used the call beforehand and get educated feature 4 times in the last 5 years, calling right after we pulled permits.
Each time they were out within 3 weeks, gave a quick talk, asked for questions, both detailed and general, from everybody present and offered to come back at different stages if we requested. I talked with the OSHA rep after the meetings each time and he said that once they do the dog and pony show they will not randomly inspect you unless they see or hear of a flagrant violation. Most bigger insurance companies also have a professional safety guy and you can call them and they will also come out and give a similar talk/meeting for anyone interested. I have done that in place of the weekly safety meetings run by onsite people. I beat my brains out on my jobs in regards to safety and still have nimrods who think nothing of sending workers into unshored trenches, onto roofs with out tie offs, pulling extension cords out with grounds broken off or the old " Saws with guards are more dangerous" routine. My own wake up call came in being the first one to a guys side who took a header off a 2 1/2 story roof because he was too dumb to listen to me or the others who told him he was being reckless and stupid. Titanium cheekbones are awfully expensive and get cold quick in the winter.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
LOL, just last week the PM asked me "where did you come across an MSDS book at?" He didnt have one and wanted mine.NOTWhere there's a will, there are 500 relatives
Haven't read the whole thread yet but you just described my strategy.
I actually started working with the dept. of labour about 15 years ago and they helped me tailor my safety program. Got to the point that the top labour cop who turned out to be a neighbor of mine we ended up having beers on a regular basis.
If you work with them they are more than happy to help.
Nowadays I work to an even higher standard because I want to and because the companies i work for demand it.
On a hill by the harbour
Normally, here anyway, the general gets sited for the same stuff any of the subs do. I'd say you may have lucked out on that one... Maybe the OSHA guy believed you when you (assuming) said that the brickie was told to correct the day before. If you want to get serious about that stuff you need to keep a log book. (PITA) Might want to bring the thing about the general getting cited to the attention of the brickie.
Regarding arguing with the OSHA guy - same as dealing with any inspector. About as smart as checking to see how sharp a saw blade is with your fingers while the saw is running...
Here, it is common knowledge, if you get a surprize OSHA visit, someone is gonna get fined. Even if it is a damaged cord, or wrong shoes (that would be me). Never heard of a warning...
In NC, if you go down to the DOL OSHA office and plead your case, they will reduce the fine by roughly 2/3s - assuming that is the first offence...
Yes.... I know these things...
Edited 2/13/2009 8:38 am ET by Matt
I have heard of that before. If you plead no contest, they knock your fine in half. Not accepting guilt, but also not pleading innocence either.I meditate, I burn candles, I drink green tea, and still I want to smack someone.
It couldnt have been better timing for him to show. The day before our GL safety guy came and ran us through grinder. He had ten minors on the subs and one on us. Three of those was on the bricklayer and he didnt correct them that day and didnt seem like he even wanted to I guess. He is just about through so he thought he could squeek by. The Osha guy was reportedly filming him that same day. Came by the next day to see if it was corrected and it wasnt.Everyone else corrected theirs right away. The Osha guy actually applauded our safety measures with our (real) weekly safety meeting on Wednesday with all the subs. He also liked our barricades on our leading edges. He said they were more than sufficient. Harnesses and lanyards were all recently approved and of course 3 ring binder with MSDS sheets.Where there's a will, there are 500 relatives
Try it the other way, get everything and everybody up to date on the rules.
Phone them to come by and see if there is more you can do, be nice.
If there is something get onto right then and there, they will help out.
Plus you go in the good guy book.
The whole osha thing is another gov't mess. When you call them for a consult, they don't show until after the time frame ends and then they show up with fines.
My wife company got nailed because some of the extingushers where discahrged by people playing around the previous few days. they were inspected by her the previous week and there were not reports filed about the discharges. She had the proof and they still got fined. Basically, there attitude is that they should be checked daily???. This is among other petty fines.
Anotehr is when t a worker was hit by a forklift driver. He wasn't looking and she wasn't looking either and in a restricted area. They both knew the rules and were both agreed that they were at fault, not the Company. She sustained minor injuriers and was back to work almost right away.
OSHA comes in and fines the company. For a pretty good chunk. Later, it was reduces to around $7k. Still cost the company more because the lawyers and a new investigation was involved
Yeah, there fines are negotiable. But why go through all that hastle.
Migraine,I'm usually one of the last ones to worry about safety and such but I gotta say that both those fines seem fair. The extinguisher fine could've been a blessing in disguise. Imagine if OSHA missed them and there was a fire the next day but nobody knew the extinguishers were empty. The forklift incident is a little less obvious but imagine if someone died. Should the company take heat then?Sometimes when we get busted it's for our own good.DC
I do agree with you on the potential for something to happen. What I don't agree is that the system has set up rules and regulations that if you do follow them, you can still fall through the cracks and still be fined.
The laws state that when extinguishers are discharged, that must be immediately replaced and or filled. There are standard rules that are in placed . What doesn't work into this too well is when employees are discharging the for fun and games. No employee is going to say that they discharged for $hits and giggles. They would be fired. As is this case, follow that OSHA inspection 5 more were discharged in the next following days on the night shift. No report and no one knows anything about it. Extinguishers are checked weekly.
Where the real problem is that the company has records of on going inspections and replacements when noted. This isn't really taken in consideration. BTW, this is a large plant with 3 shifts.
As for the forklift accident, they employees were both trained and certified. Both knew they were wrong. The company keeps good records on violations from workers when they are witnessed by management . These were produced, along with the recent tailgate safety meetings that are performed each week.
As for another example. i employee had recently be trained on the proper use of ladders. What did do, he used one incorrectly and fell. He went to the doctors and shortly went back to work. A safety investigation was done and found him at fault. he was written up and retrained, along with all employees, again.
As for if a company does not take a pro stand on safety, then I feel Fines are probably the only way some companies become pro safety.
This doesn't seem to be the case. What does seem to be a inherent problem is that the problem becomes the employers, not the employee's.
As from what I remember is that Washington State will fine an employee(which in many times should be their burden). Too many times I saw workers walking plates and not tied off when on roofs, among other thingswhen it was the company policy to not do so. Maybe the employees need to be hit where it hurts, too. If I'm wrong I know some will quickly chime in
Edited 2/13/2009 5:26 pm by migraine
Can't disagree with one point.
When I used to be an RN pre burn out phase I took a certificate in Occupational Health Nursing. Education of the worker was the emphasis but we learned a lot like using contact cement in the same room as a furnace makes phosgene gas, a popular poisen in WW1.
A about a week ago I was talking to a GC I work with some times and mentioned the guys on the second story 5/12 pitch roof, shoveling off snow were not tied off. He said they have the harness, they have the training, what the #### do you do?Up here in Canada and in my province Saskatchewan. If the employer does not train and document you are hooped. If you train , document and supply Personal Protective Equipment, and Occupational Health show up, and the worker not using it, they get fined. As of last Oct the grace period was over and skidsteer, scissor life, forklift et al. If you were not trained and carried your card some whole sites get shut down. The judicial system as wacked a few folks real hard for deaths of young folk using heavy equipment with no training. Site inspections are triggered from unhappy employees/subs, and other GC'S. Or when they are on the way to the lake Friday afternoon or on the way home monday am.But as mentioned about the trench cribbing, it shows we have to understand " the lower common denominator" factor. So The inspectors are a check and balance for those who can't think, persive some savings, or often comment " We did It That Way For The Last 40 years ........" You can lead a worker to work, you can't make them think"
"The laws state that when extinguishers are discharged, that must be immediately replaced and or filled. There are standard rules that are in placed . What doesn't work into this too well is when employees are discharging the for fun and games. No employee is going to say that they discharged for $hits and giggles. They would be fired. As is this case, follow that OSHA inspection 5 more were discharged in the next following days on the night shift. No report and no one knows anything about it. Extinguishers are checked weekly."This sounds like a culture problem. If there's that big a problem with employees horsing around with something as important as fire extinguishers, and no one owning up to it, here's what I'd do. Extinguishers are supposed to be refilled or replaced *immediately*, right? Then set up some accountability. Each extinguisher has someone who works near it assigned to it, who is responsible for that extinguisher during his/her shift. It is that person's responsibility to know if the extinguisher has been discharged, and to report it immediately so it can be refilled or replaced. That same person also checks his/her extinguisher(s) at the beginning of his/her shift and logs it. If the next shift finds the extinguisher discharged and it hasn't been reported, the responsible employee from the previous shift takes the heat. This can be a rotating responsibility, depending on how many extinguishers there are and how many employees. In addition, you keep the regular weekly inspections. If they find an extinguisher discharged without a report, then the current shift's responsible person for the discharged extinguisher is in trouble for not reporting it.If this is really mostly a night shift problem, then perhaps a once a day check when the day shift starts rather than at the start of every shift, but I'd still put one of the night shift people "in charge" of the fire extinguisher overnight and held responsible if it is discharged and not immediately reported.Just my 2 cents.Rebeccah
I wonder if someone is quick-chilling their beer ?You're right. Bottom line, someone has to come up with a way to either catch those who are doing the deed, and fire the first couple who are caught... Or find a way to make someone on each shift reponsible for each fire extinguisher.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Maybe your safety guys should distribute the Mythbusters episode where they demonstrated that you could chill beer faster with ice and salt water.
A friend of mine is a Maintenance Manager for a large university and he is in charge of all 15 dorms including their safety systems. I remember him saying they had a problem with extinguisher discharges by students and the replacement costs and fire marshal fines were huge. They did two things. First they put every canister in a wired box that was lighted and alarmed. Lighted so you can find them in the dark but if you pop a box, the whole building's fire alarm sounds. This fact was clearly labeled on each box. Second, they had some kind of dye put in the foam in all new cans, anything they sprayed turned pink or orange though soap would remove the dye. This was also clearly labeled in graphics on the side of the can. He had no clue what it really cost for the boxes and cans as it was done during a larger alarm/fire system renovation. He did say it mostly solved their problems. If that can keep drunken college kids out of the cans then it will probably work with factory workers.
Edited 2/14/2009 1:41 am ET by restorationday
I was thinking of that, too. Didn't realize such systems actually existed.Rebeccah
Can't find the wired alarm boxes but here is a simple device I saw once
http://www.hallmann-sales.com/fire-extinguisher-theft-alarm.htm
I believe the contractor was Tyco/Simplex, they always had those big contracts.Can't find info for dyes for the foam
Migraine,As far as the horseplay with the fire extinguishers go, it may easily be remedied by the company getting a wireless camera system.Again with my FIL's shop; his 3rd shift guys were into playing pranks on one another...crazy glue in toolbox keyholes, hiding other's tools, greasing tools, etc. Talking to these guys was of no use...like a bunch of children. So, he got a wireless digital camera setup. He put it in during the day and didn't tell anyone. Wasn't but a day or two till he called the pranksters into his office to let them know that he knows and that was their last warning. The best part is that the cameras are small and can be moved around unknowing to most. Again, though, I don't like rules so much. But I do what I can to enforce safety. I'm not always OSHA compliant but I work safe in my opinion. I believe a company has a responsibility to ensure employee safety; i.e. I always followed my bosses safety rules and I expect my employees to follow mine. They got a problem with my view of safety...they can be replaced with someone who doesn't. But, I agree it can be a hazy situation.Take the fire extinguisher situation for example. By OSHA your extinguishers must be ready at all times, right? What if you needed to use it. Legally how long do you have to get it refilled. As far as I know there's no set time period. It's like they expect you to instantaneously fill it after you use it. Just like you said they expect you to inspect it every day. A grey area.DC
Osha stopped by the house I was building for my daughter 2 years ago and I and my 2 guys weren't there, gone to lunch. but the guy working on the chimney was there and didn't have proper staging an older guy and his son. he got fined 500.00 it was a residential job, but on a main road. OSHA guy was just riding by and had time to stop and make some money for the State of Maine. Bless him. the only jobs I do now are where I work for myself and so don't everyone else.
Carpentry and remodeling
Vic Vardamis
Bangor Me
I only read the first posts- traiing people on face respirators is not hard and they can work well, better than "paper masks" .
reguarding not using trench boxes (especially when they are right there) is dangerous- I forget but I think one equipment bucket load of dirt weighs like 5000 pounds. Not using trench boxes is a willful violation. trenches kill a lot of people.