Morning All,
I just wanted to share some feedback now that I’ve had more than one electrician out to my home to quote on the basement job. This isn’t meant to say anything good or bad about them as I am finding their visits very enlightening.
First electrician visit said before coming out that a straight basement wire job with no special circuits, special lighting, or special line items would be $2500. He said he would install a 100A sub-panel and tie it into the existing main panel. I did mention the full bath and the kitchenette. I expect the final quote to be $4500-5500.
Second electrician was detail oriented. He said that minus the kitchen he could do the straight wire job plus all the special lighting and dedicated circuits I asked for and quoted me $4600. This would wired to a 60A sub-panel and tied into the main panel.
This 2nd electrician said he would not wire up a 100A sub-panel nor install the dedicated kitchen circuits (220 and or 30-40A) unless the service entrance cable is upgraded also, which would be $600. I agree with him. For $600 I’d be willing to let him upgrade the 00 to 0000 (aluminum), but there is a catch.
In order for the second electrician to upgrade the service entrance cable, he would be replacing the meter housing and entire main breaker and housing and installing a single unified housing–all inclusive in the $600 price. Cool. But, he cannot work on it hot, which I understand perfectly.
So, he’ll have to call me electrical co-op, and this is where the issue comes in. That electrical co-op will in turn call the county to verify the project permit. I am doing the basement to code, or exceeding code, in every way, but I chose not to permit because of the post-project tax re-assessment.
In six years my taxes went up 78%. While the housing values have dropped 25%, the county is refusing to adjust. If I add a finished basement, the living space increases 46% and my a-hole county will increase the tax assessment by the same factor. It has nothing to do with the actual permit cost.
I am surprised one electrician will wire a 100A panel and never mention upgrading the service entrance cable while knowing the kitchen intentions, and the other electrician makes note of it. Both are licensed and insured. Today or tomorrow I’ll be having a third electrician in. If he does’t mention the needed service entrance cable upgrade I’ll ask.
In either event, the costs involved in the actual construction are not bad.
Replies
Get a permit and do things the proper way. You will never regret having the job inspected and meeting all code requirements. You will sleep better and your insurance company will be happy.
I really shy away from jobs where the customer says "NO" to permits.
Permits are not optional. I'm not about to participate in breaking the law. I will not place my license at risk for your convenience.
It's your city, your officials, your rules. If you don't like them, there are avenues open to you. Asking me to break the rules on your behalf is not one of them.
Not to mention .... it never hurts to have someone check the work.
As a licensed contractor, I can pull a permit. Some ambitious handyman cannot. Over the years I've met hundreds of "electricians," only two really were.
Worried about the tax assessment? I'll bet you'll be happy to collect a higher sale price later, though.
More likely, you're aware that you're building an illegal "apartment" in your basement.
60 amp? 100 amp? What's the load calculation? What are the basic assumptions?
Worried about the tax assessment? I'll bet you'll be happy to collect a higher sale price later, though. More likely, you're aware that you're building an illegal "apartment" in your basement.
60 amp? 100 amp? What's the load calculation? What are the basic assumptions?
Illegal apartment? I doubt that. No bedrooms. No second meter on electric or water. Not even a closet. If I post a Microsoft Wordpad (RTF) document can you open the file?
Enough questions that plans need to be reviewed. Naturally, that's part of the permit process. Off the cuff, I see three rooms that are likely to be called 'bedrooms' at sale time. Whether this arrangement also lends itself as an apartment is another issue .... heck, yesterday I was in a house that had been converted to 'student housing,' with each room rented separately, with shared bathing and cooking facilities. At any rate, and as I'm sure you're aware, finishing the basement can raise all manner of egress requirements, etc. Calling the rooms an 'office' or an 'exercise room' might satisfy the city - or it might not. The folks at city hall are usually reasonable - but they're not fools, either! I think you can see why this project is a liability minefield .... yet another reason to make sure the papers are in order. While it's certainly possible that your intentions, at the moment, are pure ... there's no guarantee that will always be the case. I'm sure any contractor you contact would also be able to show you dozens of such "apartment conversions." Even if the conversions are done correctly, and the tenants are all angels ... parking in such neighborhoods is a nightmare. Work with the city. Don't just assume they're the bad guys.
I'll bet you'll be happy to collect a higher sale price later
My experience is that sale price has nothing to do with assessed value. It's all about appraised value and comparable recent sales.
Oh the tax man!!! You know if these cityies would go around in some areas and lower the value of homes, to reflect current resale value..then all they have to do is raise the tax rate per $1000 to make up for any shortfalls.....I mean they are creative enough to get their money.
As for the electricians there are good and bad ones....while I am not a "licensed electrician" , I have taken the test and am allowed to do my own electrical work in my house (I still have to get it inspected) , and when I observe some of the work neighbors have done by some of their licensed electricians, it makes you shake your head. They violate a lot of codes, it seems like they take the easy way out...and they don't have the county inspect the work. This is repair/modify type work.
As for the basement....maybe you could get creative...like change your plans....put a workshop in your basement..that will require the service changes...you know for those big saws you are going to put down there..right? Now get the pernmit and get the new sub panel put in..and now have the inspector look it over, take care of any assesments.. and your are all done. Maybe you get around to putting saws in the basement, maybe you don't. What you decide to do later in your life with your basement , i.e kitchen/bath. etc......that you approach and deal with latter as a seperate project.
The permit is for the upgrade in service, not for the work going on in the basement, right? For all they know, you are changing out your water heater for electic, or tankless electric if you already have electric, or you just want to have a bigger panel.
Permit aside, no two electricians will look at one job the same. I have this going on, a service upgrade on a 4 plex electrician one started the job put in a four pack meter base, was going to put in 4 panels one for each apt, one is in three to go he has decide he does not want to finish. The owner has made 2 payments. He will not return phone calls to us.
So we bring electrician two, most of what he sees he likes, what he does not like is the romax going from new meter base to first sub panel, tells me nothing in code against it, I just don't do it that way I put it in conduit. He does not like where electrician one was going to put the other three panels says not enough clearance they need to go lower and over under a very small window not to the side of it as elect one had it. That he says is code. Might of been one or two other quirky things, like why does a rewired dryer run have a three wire plug not a 4, elect 2, does not like that. ( it was exposed UF romax running down the out side of basement stair wall that elect 1 replaced)
Point is in a trade full of strict rules, it is still wide open to one's interpretation and way of doing things. Elect one was doing it to code, 2 wants to go beyond code.
As to change out your main panel or add a sub panel what matters is the total amp draw at any one time what amp is the current main panel if it is already 200 you should be fine, if it is only 100-125 amps you are pushing it.
As to permits I have seen houses sold where buyers have asked for proof of permits, on additions, garages, remodels, basement attic conversions, etc. A smart sales agent will ask for these to be at closing. They don't want to see the taxes go up on the new owner unexpectedly. Worked for someone once doing some small punch list items before they sold there house, the buyers asked for their proof of a permit for a garage that was built 10 years prior. Besides you should pay your fair share.
Wallyo
Not that I am condoning this ... but the easiest thing to do would be to pull a permit for a "service upgrade". Upgrade the entrance cable, meter can, and main panel. Get it inspected and close the permit. A service upgrade should have no impact on your assessment.
Shawn
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Checker Contracting - SE Michigan
Permit discussion aside, I was more intrigued by the notion that the electrical co-op haven to engage the county when approached by the licensed electrician. But this is my ignorance.
I am curious, though, why one electrician didn't think upgrading the service entrance cable was even worth mentioning, and the other did. Both were licensed in the trade and insured.
I have a third electrician coming by this afternoon. BTWm the 2nd and 3rd were recommended by a plumbing and electrical supply warehouse.
As I said If you sit and read the code it is full of rules that are not clear cut but require interpretation. Two people two interpretations, don't take this as rock hard but I think code says that the panel that to be installed should exceed total normal usage by 20% so if you are drawing 160 amps a 200 amp panel if you are drawing 80 amps a 100 panel. Did either calculate present total amp draw and future, or did they go off the cuff? Again what size panel do you now have?WLLYO
Edited 9/12/2008 1:14 pm ET by wallyo
This might have been 7-10 years ago, on a different forum, there was a builder in the Atlanta ares (have no idea of which jurisdiction) who was remodeling his basement to make inlaw accomidations for his aging parents.
Being a builder he wanted to do it "right" and get permits and everything.
But that city would not allow him to put in a 2nd kitchen. The BI and he knew that as soon as the permited job was signed off that he would put in a kitchen.
He was frustrated that he could not "legally" do it.
And in my area it is not that uncommon to have a 2nd kitchen in a party room.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
My parents house in N J had a summer kitchen it was great for parties in the basement rec room.
I'm not even looking for a full sized kitchen. I've got a second older washer/dryer to use when the wife refuses to let me use the good units upstairs. Not looking to put a conventional oven, cooktop, or dishwasher in.
Microwave, small refrigerator for theater drinks, and a dedicated upright freezer (I'm a meatavore and want to buy in bulk) with sink and hot-tap. I see most of these elements in someone's basement bar. Maybe saying Kitchen/ette was the less practicle choice of description.
I don't understand we are trying to help why can't you say how large is your present panel?Wallyo
Doh. I wasn't trying to hide, but rather just didn't realize what was being asked. :)
I thought I had mentioned it was a 150A panel. I can take a picture of it and post it if you would like.
150 amp probably does need upgrading. But again need to run the loads.Probably save $25 going with that rather than 200 amp when it was built..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Here is a picture of the Cutler-Hammer panel. Its rated for 225A max, so I do not know if they considered 50% overage for safety.
This is a basement... with micro and fridge...
Why on earth would you need 220v, 30-40 amp circuits or a sub panel?
I'm missing something here...
Did you miss his washer and Dryer?For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Actually I did miss the second dryer part. FWIW I'd install a clothes line in the yard and dump the added electric expense. New meter... new box... all to put clothes in a second metal tumbling oven just boggles my mind.
But that's me.... I'm cheap.
Edited 9/12/2008 9:20 pm ET by sledgehammer
"This 2nd electrician said he would not wire up a 100A sub-panel nor install the dedicated kitchen circuits (220 and or 30-40A) "I thought that you where talking about an oven or cook top.I might disagree with both. But don't have enough details.One of the problem is that on a sub-panel like this you don't get the diversity of loads so that 60 might be too small.But looking at the whole house the code reconzies that, on the average, you won't be using both microwaves, both washers, both dryers, etc the same time so you are allowed to use a forumula to calculate the load.So it might not have too big of an affect on the overall house load.But you would need to go through a simple of detail list of all of the loads.My guess is that either one did a detailed look and used a guessitmate and used different experiences to come up with different answers..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
On a recent project of mine ... the basement was not considered a separate dwelling until the range was put in ... so I left it off my plans ... frig and sink ... no range. The range made it two living units The games we play.
Permit thing aside. I have never met an electrician that needed power turned off at the pole to change a drop/riser. On my projects I work with my electrician and i've hooked up a service live.
Its not too big a deal.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I think to change the meter base it would be wise, no? I work on a lotta "hot" stuff too, but I'd porbably draw the line at a MB change.
My .02The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Yes its probably smarter to kill the power but i've always seen it done hot at the weather head.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
It depends on your power company. Here we clip out our own line drops and re-crimp and wrap on our own. South of town it is a different company and they want to do it.
Same is true with some equipment. One company used to provide meter bases and the other never has. Kind of a regional thing I guess. DanT
tell the electrician your story and i bet he'll take care of you. a supply wire is like a big extension cord, if you are careful you can cut the lines at the splice and tehn re-attach them when you have your new meter base up. this sounds risky, but it's just 115 vac. lineman often work hot with much higher voltages, but most electricians would rather have it off. for me money talks.
I tried this. I was honest with him. It wasn't the cost for his wiring, but the recurring county cost to upgrade the service entrance cable.
In all honesty, if the county is going to be the way it is then why not go ahead an assess the homes with basements as if they are already finished? It eliminates this issue from the start, and get's more money out of the tract builders to begin with.
Anyway, someone mentioned the need to even install a sub-panel. Unless I pay the electrician to replace most of the existing breakers to reclaim slots, there is no way that regular circuits and dedicated circuits (mostly the media room and workshop/bar area) will fit the existing panel.
I've said this already .... so forgive me if I sound a bit weary: LOAD CALCULATION That's what the sparky needs to do. You DON'T add up the breakers to determine whether you need a larger service. You DON'T add up panels. Heck, yesterday I saw a 100 amp panel that served three more 100 amp panels. How do I know they were 100 amp panels? Because that's the size of the breaker that fed each one. NOT the maximum rating of each panel, the size of the wire, or anything else. While it may sound silly ... there's no reason a 60 amp service can't supply a '200 amp panel' (as described by the folks at the box store), as long as the circuit supplying the panel is limited to 60 amps. What you really have, in that case, in a 60 amp panel with lots of breaker spaces. No matter what the clerk said. It is the LOAD CALCULATION ... something the PoCo and city will probably want signed off on by either an engineer or a master electrician / electrical contractor .... that determines whether you need a service upgrade. The largest factor in the load calculation is the square footage. Unless you're adding a laundromat, with electric heat and hot water, you're not likely to actually need a service upgrade.
Unless you're adding a laundromat, with electric heat and hot water, you're not likely to actually need a service upgrade.
I think you may be right. Third electrician just left. He did not see any reason to upgrade the service entrance cable based on the loads being added to the basement and the current loads pre-existing.
BTW, I provided the same bulleted list I had posted, which I also provided to the first two electricians. So, how do I calculate the load--let me re-read all your posted comments? :)
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/bh0019.asp
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill. I just printed it. Let me try to run the numbers and see what I get.
Question: This appears to be load calculations for permanently wired loads. I gather that loads that use an electrical plug/outlet are not considered. Am I wrong? Not talking about Addititonal Small Appliances (2nd kitchen) or the washer dryer, but rather things like five 600W audio amplifiers.
that is right.But all of it needs to use a litttle logic. In some case you might adjust for them.But in your case you know that there won't be 3 teenage girls using hair driers while you are pumping the amps.So in your case I don't see any need to add any more for them.That is for total house laod. Any circuits would need to be sized for such a load..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It would be interesting to hang a meter on those "600 watt" amps and see what they actually draw at any reasonable (or even unreasonable) listening level. They use funny math to get to those numbers.
Explain how to do a load calculation? Can't be done ... certainly not in the space we have here. A very good summary is contained in "Code Check Electrical." Even there, though, assumptions are made .... assumptions that may not be valid. A lot hinges on the intended use, etc. In the end, the 'calculation' is very mush a 'professional opinion' ..... for which you need it to come from a qualified professional. If you can't stamp the prints, your calculations don't count. Otherwise, "GIGO" applies. If incorrect or misleading information is supplied to the professional, his calculation may be in error. Part of the problem ... and electricians are not the only group with this failing ... is that we get in the habit of guessing, rather than doing a proper analysis. One thing that encourages this bad habit is the desire by the customer for a free opinion, now. Calculations take time, measurement, and research. It reminds me of the last time my car broke. The first several mechanics made guesses, and failed. The last guy took the time to do a proper diagnosis, and fixed it on the first try. The last guy also worked out to be both cheaper, and faster, than the others .... so his 'high' rate was really a bargain.
Don't fret about paying for things to be done right.
"this sounds risky, but it's just 115 vac........ for me money talks."
brilliant !!.
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With service conductors it is not the "115" volts that hurts you, it is the 10,000+ amps. That is way up into the "arc flash burn" category.
If you screw up you are not going to open the fuse on that transformer.
NFPA 70E
Soon to become part of the OSHA standards and is part ot of the 2008 NEC.
Approximately $1000 for PPE 's per man to work it hot and be in compliance.
I think some of these guys are just one DIY episode away from disaster .the fact the someone doesn't get hurt is just a roll of the dice.
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I could'nt agree more. " But it looks so easy! Why should I pay an electrician? I can do it myself [ with the friendly help of the VERY knowledgeable guy at HD].Besides, if I have any questions, there is always a code cut and paste "expert" on the internet to help me."Darwin award future winner?
These last few posts make some of my points for me. One guy openly admits dodging code requirements, in the "games" he played. Another confesses his ignorance, and counts on some anonymous internet guru to read a code book to him. "I did it myself" is no longer a statement of self reliance and pride. It's a confession of ignorance and admission of improper work.
"it's only 115 volts" comments just get me riled up, it's as though some folks think it's just a little tickle and nothing to worry about.fact is I managed to put MYSELF in the hospital when I was a young smartazz JW replacing a damaged 208 panel that still had a hot C Ø ! did a real good job of ripping the skin off both my palms trying to get free..but its only 115 volts, .............. stupid, just plain stupid.
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I do not know where the DIY thing came in. I have no idea if the electricians that have been out have actually done load calculations or not--I'll ask.
As a trade that is licensed, this consumer can only HOPE they know what they are doing. One of the three electricians came privately recommended from someone on this forum, and the other two were references from an electrical & plumbing supply house that someone else on this forum suggested I ask.
That being said, there isn't a dang thing looking to be skirted in terms electrical code. I've said it on this forum and to the electricians that the job has to be in excess of code, and that cost would never compromise that stance. Yet, not a single person on this forum could openly recommend an electrician. Hmm.
Folks often forget that referrals go both ways. Make that three ways. Maybe more. When someone asks me for a referral, one factor at the front is: do I know the person asking? I'm not about to tell a stranger to 'see Joe' ... I'll point him at the phone book. I simply don't know what this guy wants, or risk sending my buddy a false lead.
If a particular specialty is called for, I might go so far as to say "I think XYZ does the type of work you're asking for." That's a bit more specific, but not a recommendation ... I may not even have personal knowledge of "XYZ." Finally, if I have a poor opinion of the guy asking, I might point him to the worst guy in town, on the theory they deserve each other. Last, you've already described enough of the job to expose some of the reservations guys have about doing residential work. Far too much time is wasted on nightmare jobs and frivolous inquiries ... a man's not going to risk hos license playing code games, or his time giving quotes / opinions / design info to jobs that never come through.
With times as lean as they are right now ... you've got as good a chance as you ever will in finding an interested contractor. However, the endless parade of contractors suggests that either you're not serious, or that you'll never be happy - and I'd be surprised if half the guys in town haven't already heard about your place. You've already looked over a few guys. Pick the one you like, give him the go-ahead, then leave town and let him work.
With times as lean as they are right now ... you've got as good a chance as you ever will in finding an interested contractor. However, the endless parade of contractors suggests that either you're not serious, or that you'll never be happy - and I'd be surprised if half the guys in town haven't already heard about your place.
Endless parade? Folks here suggested I get three electricians in and pick one. I've only had three electricians in, and only two have actually provided a quote thus far. How am I not being serious in this matter?
Are you suggesting I had one too many in? I got one quote too many? Please explain.
One hires a professional for his judgment as much as anything else. That three guys might have three very different answers isn't at all unusual ... especially when there are so many different ways to look at things. How many do you want? Perhaps none of the three told you what you wanted to hear ... or you don't know what you want. I sure can't tell from here. There's no virtue in quantity here; it would have been very possible for you to have been happy with the first, and the work would have been already underway. That's probably the biggest issue I have with much of what passes as 'consumer advice.' Trades are not commodities, and are not interchangeable. This idea of getting multiple bids and playing one against the other is only going to cost you more time, money, and pair you with the least appropriate party. Some of the vagueness you've had in response has been, in part, a defense against this. They guys are simply not going to break the job down into minute detail for you to dissect; nor do they want you to try to play one against the others. If the three opinions are not enough for you, there's always the phone book. Or, for that matter, Union Hall. Whatever else can be said about unions, they train their people well, and their contractors are similarly competent. Trade associations like ABC and AGC often have lists of their local members, and these lists often include firms that are not in the phone book.
Nuke, I was referring to the poster who alluded to working things hot as cheaper and faster..
aside from that I have no comment on your thread
but what kind of referral could I give you from way up here in Indiana ??geez try de-caf OK .... :/.
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"Yet, not a single person on this forum could openly recommend an electrician. Hmm."
Maybe you should try asking somewhere other than the WORLD wide web? I would call an electrical supply house and get some names from them.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Maybe you should try asking somewhere other than the WORLD wide web? I would call an electrical supply house and get some names from them.
Someone already suggested this. I've already called a local supplier near me. He gave me two referrals. Both have been here--they were the #2 and #3 visiting electricians. The @3 provided a quote on the spot--good man. The #3 said he'd have a quote ready for me on Monday, but came and went--yesterday's call to him went unresponded.
The #1 visiting electrician came recommended to me from a forum member. Only yesterday did that electrician provide a quote for the job. So far I've only had three electricians over (not an endless parade of them as Reno suggests), and only two of the electricians provided a quote (and only one of the referred electricians did).
Not sure how I am being pegged as beating about the bush. I guess I'll skip the refrrals, or the quoteless referrals and just close my eyes, leaf through the yellow pages and pick someone, hire them without referral, etc. as that seems to be the accepted stance here.
"The @3 provided a quote on the spot--good man."
An interesting perception. If I do an on the spot quote for anything that involves more than 2 tasks I am usually wrong. I forget something that should have been charged for or I play it too safe and charge way more than should have been so I lose the job.
Even doing standard bath remodels (which we do a lot of) I go back to the office and think through the process so I am accurate. But apperantly some clients would think that I am not "on the ball" or a "lesser quality contractor" for not giving a quote on the spot. Hmmm. DanT
"Not sure how I am being pegged as beating about the bush. I guess I'll skip the refrrals, or the quoteless referrals and just close my eyes, leaf through the yellow pages and pick someone, hire them without referral, etc. as that seems to be the accepted stance here."
Don't be silly. I don't think anyone here ever suggested that.
I think you're just experiencing the joys of trying to find qualified subs who are interested in doing work for you. It can be challenging even if being a GC is your day job.
I wonder if the guy who didn't provide a quote is concerned because you don't want to pull a permit?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I would have loved to pull the permit to upgrade the electrical service had I thought of that before the framing and HVAC were added, and the five foot tall stack of drywall delivered.
If I were to pull a service upgrade permit the inspector would look at the other work and ask, "where the permit for basement completion project?" :) I know better next time.
Hey, the second electrician owner is stopping by this afternoon. I called him to ask if the conditions could be reconsidred--and told him again its not about his quote, but the increase in property taxes resulting from permitting the basement project.
If he says he can do it (going from 150A to 200A on srvice entrance upgrade and wire the basement), then I'll happily write the check. Who knows, maybe today will go well.
You can still pull a permit. Just call the inspector, meet he/she on the site, admit your folly, and I'm sure he/she will try to work with you. Like I said earlier, you'll sleep better at night.
Electrician has been hired. Thank all.
Snork!
yup.
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