I know this subject comes up with some regularity, but here goes…
I have a full time guy, who has been with me for about 4 months. Good guy, good worker, not a ball of fire necessarily but he is reliable and conscientious. Downside is he doesn’t have a car, so I pick him up in the morning and if I leave him somewhere to work other than where I am I have to factor that into my plans. He also has few tools, but I have tons so I don’t mind that. He has good but not exhaustive carpentry knowledge, enough that generally I can set him to a task and it gets done well.
I pay him $15.00 an hour and he has asked me for a raise to $20. I feel like that’s a big jump in a relatively short time, and pushing the envelope of what the market rate is here in CT. Opinions are welcome…
Replies
Seems like a lot of money for someone that doesn't have transportation. Anyway, I think you have to ask yourself if you are getting $200 a week more production out of him.
I would hesitate to give someone a 33% raise after 4 months. I would think 10-20% MAYBE if he was a really good employee.
Again, the no ride thing is a big inconvenience for you. For $20 you should be able to get someone that will drive to the job, work unsupervised all day, and drive himself home.
What happens next year, will he be worth $25? At that point you will have a ton of time in him, and the separation will be even more difficult.
That's a big jump for a guy who has only been with you four months and has no car. On the other hand, you could look at it as subsidizing the cost of his own transportation.
Any extenuating circumstances? Any reason he'd need that extra five bucks an hour? Can YOU cover the extra $200 a week, plus the government percentage? Does he get any benefits?
If it were me, I'd go halfway, or maybe offer a subsidy on health insurance or retirement plan. Also - $800 a month is a really nice car payment. Maybe get a decent used, basic work truck, no frills, and offer that to him instead. Company vehicle, you get a tax deduct, he gets a free ride, and he feels like he's got a raise when in fact, you've done yourself some good by not having to drop him off and pick him up and be HIS gofer. If he bails on you someday, you still have the truck. Or even better - give him a buck or buck-fifty and hour AND the truck. Make sure he knows it's a company rig and you expect him to account for mileage.
You hit the nail on the head with "market rate". Out here in Washington state around Seattle our landscapers make 15$
The whole thing is relative can he make you money?
2$ per hour verses 200$ per hour if that's what the market dictates.
Too bad we don't have more control over inflation.
Well, sure he makes me money (I hope ;) ).
The real issue to me is that we're talking a 33.3% (to split hairs) increase, for an avg of 800.00 a month. For someone who's just starting off, that's a nice hunk of change to me. He says he's worried about his heating bills this winter, but he has a roommate, I doubt he's paying more than 500.00 for his share of the rent, plus utilities. If he's averaging 2000.00 a month with me take home let's say, it's hard for me to feel like I'm underpaying him. By the same token, he's a good guy, pleasant to work with and reliable... sighhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
You should ask him if he is aware of current gas prices. ;-)
I definitely feel your pain. That's the biggest reason I closed my business & went back to the large contractors--had something to do with bennies & paperwork as well.
33% is a huge jump & like others have posted smaller increments is probably warranted
how about smaller increase with a bonus.
As the other foreman I work with ask how come my guys produce more than their guys do.
A dangled carrot is usually better than a cracked whip.
Edited 10/3/2005 6:06 pm ET by plumbbill
I hate being held hostage for money. On the other hand I reward good effort with little encouragement. Offer him a buck more an hour and you will buy him $40 worth of tools each week. You both win. And he still gets the free ride to work each day, and yes I would remind him of that. DanT
Offer hin half of what he want and tell him when he gets a car you will give him the other half.
Dangle the carrot.
And, praise his good work, but not so much that he thinks he's gotta go looking for more $.
Good luck.
EricIt's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
[email protected]
Hey Hey Heyyyyy... I like the guy and all, but I'm not dangling my carro...oohhhhhhhhh.....
Ummm, I got it.
A jump from $15 - $20 seems a bit drastic. At $20 has he pretty much hit the ceiling??? A $2 raise would seem more than generous to me. I think the auto situation needs to be addressed though. How about giving him a $1.50/hr raise, give him a company truck, and some type of a tool account ( lets say $40/mnth, he buys the tool and then turns the receipt into you). Or, each month or two, give him a tool he doesnt have ( it doesnt have to be new, it could be one of your used tools).
Kind of a win/win situation.....you dont have to drive him around, he's getting more tools which helps both of you, and he's getting more money. I feel that he really needs to be able to get to and from jobs on his own.
-m2akita
Well... I agree with you entirely about the car issue, it's amazing to me. We live ina good sized city and the number of younger people here that don't own cars is startling. When I was his age, I'd have given up a kidney before I did without a car, but these days I guess they have friends with cars that they mooch rides from and between taxes, insurance and parking problems a lot of them are opting out. Go figger...
$15 to $20... no way, unless you are drastically underpaying him now and you both know it. A guy without a truck getting $20 would be unusual in most places. Tell him if he gets wheels it's $17 or $17.50.
I have explained to my guys the hazard of being overpaid, and the uncomfortable feeling it gives you to know that your job can not be secure if you are earning more than you can justify. I have worked in companies in the past where guys would get "raised" out the door. What a manager may feel is agreeable when forced with a significant pay increase, can often times be short lived. Anyone can be replaced!
If you offer him a raise, and tell him that it is based on you hiring a new $15.00 grunt to drive him to jobs (gas money) and work with him. Explain that $20/hour is the going rate for a "lead" and he would be responsible for the profitability of HIS projects, I think he would back down from his request.
have explained to my guys the hazard of being overpaid, and the uncomfortable feeling it gives you to know that your job can not be secure if you are earning more than you can justify
Excellen point PearceServices! I've made that point many time to my young proteges.
blue
The 1/3 raise does seem a little high to me as does the $20 rate but you are in CT. I know that we always start people out at a lower rate until we can judge what they are really worth. If they are good we raise them up pretty quickly.
Your employees request has put you on the spot. This is not a bad thing. You will have to carefully consider how this employee fits into your long term plans. How you handle this will strongly influence how long this employee stays with you. If you want him to stay you should give him a moderate raise ($2-3), a tool allowance and you should promise him an additional raise if he gets a car. Let him know that you want to work with him to make him a more productive and valuable employee. We all know how tough it is to hire good people. If you have one, keep him and make him better.
The more experienced carps usually remind the young carps that the more money an individual makes the company, the more he'll get paid. It's sometimes easy to forget that it's simply how things work. We also have to remind them that voting with their feet isn't a bad thing. It's funny how other builders usually think we're worth more than the one we're working for now. Maybe he has a better offer and it will take the $20 to keep him.
I pay him $15.00 an hour and he has asked me for a raise to $20. I feel like that's a big jump in a relatively short time, and pushing the envelope of what the market rate is here in CT. Opinions are welcome
Ok, so is he "testing the water"? Or are there other things going on (wage garnishing, child support, etc.)?
At $15, that's about $19 your cost, so is he worth the $23-25 it will cost you to give hime $5 the hour?
And, it's tough sledding, no lie, making these decisions. I mean, my first reaction was for $20 and hour, he should pay you scale taxi fare--which is certainly too harsh a reaction. Some of which comes from the fact that around here, he'd only make $15 with his own truck and tools, too (I'm only just making $15, in case your helper wants to gripe <g>).
not a ball of fire
doesn't have a car
I pick him up in the morning
if I leave him somewhere to work other than where I am I have to factor that into my plans
not exhaustive carpentry knowledge
has few tools
pushing the envelope of what the market rate is
Paul, I think you said enough. I don't think I really need to add anything. When I used to play ball, it was three strikes and your out. You've given this guy seven strikes and he's playing you for a top dawg raise!!!
I don't mind a guy wanting money. I admire that drive in a fellow, but he has to have some actions backing it up.
I can tell from your tone that you want this guy to be your savior. Your a little bit desparate.
I will also tell you from experience, that he'll never be the one to lead your pack. He's not a keeper. No self respecting guy would allow himself to be toted all over the city, then ask for a raise.
You'll never forward your business keeping guys like this. You need to do like the big leagues do and hold tryouts. I'd hire another laborer, with the same general skills. Give them both two weeks and keep the best man. I seriously doubt your guy will ever attain journeyman status.
blue
Well... I do agree with much of what you're saying Blue. Just to clarify (or defend ;) ) I don't think I'm looking for a savior. I'm buried in work, and just signed up some more. What I'm trying to do is make sure that if I lose him, it's not because my take on what's reasonable pay isn't skewed from my past business. If I'm confident I'm paying him a good wage, and could replace him for the same money, then I'm comfortable saying no, or making him a token offer since he is a good guy. Anyhow, thanks to all that contributed opinions...
Paul, it's when your buried in work that you make your worst decision regarding slack helpers.
blue
Ahhhh...I see what you mean now Blue, and that's a very good point. Thanks...
Blue,
You're right on the money. I had an employee, short timer come asking for a big raise. Already, being paid more than most carpenters around here. UP Mich- NE Wis.
After some consideration, I let him choose between:
Leaving, to find a better job.
Coming to work all the hours available (40/wk He had'nt worked a full week in a couple months) Which would net him a bigger check.He chose to quit. Best move he ever made:)My gut response, was to offer some raise, because I was buried in work. Thankfully, I did'nt go with my gut. Been working 6-7 day weeks for about a year now, to wrap up the schedule. It's been tough at times, but the relief of being without that baggage is worth every scar.My company now has one carpenter, and he is me. That's how I plan to keep it.I, like you, am looking to shift gears a bit, carrer wise. Been doing a mix of new custom homes, and high end millwork. The market here is slim. Thinking about getting into some higher end rental developement. That market here is relatively unserviced. Just, starting to shop sites. It's going to be interesting. Have a good one!Brudoggie
Tell him he's lucky. I make 8 bucks an hour, have my own vehicle, reliable, honest, good looking, smart, smell good, skilled. Okay maybe a bit of a stretch, but I do only make 8 bucks an hour (It's not a job, Jakob. It is an Apprenticeship. You learn here the best stuff.) On my Moonlighting jobs, I pay my employees (Read: brothers) $15-20 an hour. I dunno. $15 plus no travel expenses seems pretty good to me.
-------------------------------
People are entitled to their own opinions; People are not entitled to their own truth.
Jacob
I would take blueeyedevil's points seriously. What you describe sounds like an employee who has has an inflated sence of worth for you - Sounds a bit like he thinks things come too easy and without proper planning, preparation, and perspiration. I would lay out what tasks he will have to be able to accomplish satisfactorily solo - to achieve the next raise. Both the time for completion or competence level. This way the raise is based upon his output not his sence of entitlement. Show him the steps to reach the carrot and see if he actually puts himself on the path and keeps to it.
I am a sucker for employee needs also, how many loans have I handed out. .. . Yes we all need (or think we do) more money but are we entitled to it? In the long run employees that have asked for alot have turned out to give less than those which asked for little but gave a lot. I keep those and give them alot in recompense.
Chileab
the difference between stumbling blocks and stepping stones is the way you use them.
I'm not in the trades, so I feel I can't comment with any justification. Just a point and a question:
This may be dumb, but when you are all talking about an hourly rate does that include any sort of benefits like health insurance or is it just $15 and a ride home?
As for the point, your city of New Haven has a living wage law for people contracting for the city which you might want to look at as a benchmark. I think you are above it but you might want to be sure you are comfortably (for your own peace of mind) above it.
When I lived in Oakland, CA, they instituted a living wage law for firms doing business with the city. I think it was in the $9/hr. range.
Before you give him a company truck, you might find out if he has some reason he doesn't have a car. No license or DUI problems?
One would think it would be hard for him to afford a junker with what's left from $15 an hour at today's prices. He should get out of the trades. If he's young, he should take public transportation to a school. Most likely he will have money problems working for someone else forever. To be honest, that is reality.
Paul,
The solution is simple. Present (discuss) with him a game plan that will ultimately get him to $20.00/hr ie. he never calls in sick for 6 months another $1.00/hr. Buys a car, $1.00 or $2.00 if he gets a work truck. Makes you money on each job, another dollar every six months till he gets there or two if he really makes you money.
WSJ
Jon, the solution is simpler yet, but he goofed by not setting it up before the employee requested a raise.
I had the most success with employees that hired on at less than journeymen wages. At the time of hire, I laid out a schedule of raises that essentially brought the trainee to journeymen status. Without schooling, I laidout a six year plan. Pre-set raises came every 3 months. There wasn't any $5.00 jumps in there either!
This works well because it is the proverbial carrot. It also works well because if they don't bust their butts and take the job seriously, they won't see that first raise. Once their on board (get past the probation period), it's easy to give them the promised raise because it's a small raise and they probably deserve it because I'm teaching them so much stuff, because they are there on time and have tools and transportation.
I don't hire people without wheels.
blue
I have read the responses and all have missed the mark. All this emotional drivel about how much I started out at, how luckey he is, blah, blah, blah....
This is business and business only, so make a business decision. Can you replace this guy without risk tomorrow for $16.00 an hour? If you can, do it. If not, pay him.
Say you pay him the twenty an hour. Is he still making you money? If so, pay and shut up.
The guy is worth what the market will bear, no more and no less. There is nothing he, you or me can do about that. Everything else is irrelevant.
The guy is worth what the market will bear, no more and no less. There is nothing he, you or me can do about that. Everything else is irrelevant.
Brilliant stuff, absolutely correct. I bet most of the others ignore it. But it's true.
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
In some ways it's true, but what is the market here? At the moment it's Paul in CT, no more and no less. A carpenter's worth has something to do with how good he is, but it also has a lot to do with how much his particular employer needs him at the moment. If Paul's main client cancels his only job this morning, the guy won't be worth $5 per hour.
At the last two remodeling companies I worked at, I hired a lot of carpenters and dealt with their compensation levels. I created a chart showing skill levels and corresponding pay ranges. The levels I use are laborer, apprentice carpenter, mid-level carpenter, journeyman carpenter, and foreman.
A laborer is expected to have no skills or tools to start with and can make between $8 and $13 per hour.
A mid-level carpenter is expected to have skilsaw, sawzall, cordless drill, hand tools, etc. Be able to lay out plates, cut and nail studs and plywood, hang an interior door, etc. etc. Pay range $13-18 per hour.
A foreman is expected to be god-like, deal with architects and engineers, estimate change orders, supervise all trades, and build the job while I'm sitting on the beach.
If you have employees, sit down and make yourself a chart that shows your classifications, pay ranges, skill levels, etc. Have some overlap in your pay ranges. Make the skill stuff as detailed as possible. When someone asks for a raise, look at the chart and see if they are qualified for it.
Guys tend to stay a lot happier when they know this stuff is dealt with uniformly.
All excellent points David, thanks. At the moment it's just me, one full time guy and a "as needed" part timer. But in my previous business I had as many as 16 people under me and used a system very much like the one you describe.
PaulB
Having a list of values, of what this guy or any other guy is worth only works in a free market situation. It's pointless to say that he's only worth a specific amount if he can't be replaced with a better value employee right away.
If he can make Paul $30 and only cost $20 then that is more money for Paul than if there is no one there at all.
Kowboy addresses this point when he said
This is business and business only, so make a business decision. Can you replace this guy without risk tomorrow for $16.00 an hour? If you can, do it. If not, pay him.
So, can he be replaced tomorrow or not?
JohnIf my baby don't love me no more, I know her sister will.
Well, I think (not to split hairs) that in the case you're making it's a profit optimization issue. That is... if he generates billable hours of "X", can I get a person that produces at least "X" at a cost of his current pay and related expenses (or less)?
In his case, I probably could but, he is a good guy and I'm not opposed to paying a slight premium over what I might pay someone with identical profitability but who I don't enjoy being around. Pleasant working atmosphere is an intangible, but a value nonetheless I think.
Anyway... I think I'm just gonna lay all of this out for him and tell him $20/hr is not gonna happen but I'll go a buck or two based on the premise he shows me a bit more "hussle".
Paul,
Folks will only "Hussle" untill they get comfortable where they are at or untill they get what they want.... I have seen it time and time again... I used to buy into it but no longer.
he will "hussle" then he will revert back to his "pace" after he gets what he wants. Think about it like this-
If he is only working as hard as he thinks he is getting paid do you really want him around? This guy is new, he should still be in the " got to impress the boss mode" . BTY, that usually wears off in 30 - 90 days unless the guy has asperations of making more.. or in the rare case where you have a guy who just likes to produce and dose not know any other way of working.. when this is the case lavish him with cash... pay over market rate because he is a keeper..... untill he goes out on his own.
james
I've been out of the loop for awhile doing a 37,000 sq. warehouse renovation here in Atlanta. I hired on with a small remodeling outfit last Feb. and during the initial interview, told my boss I'd start at $15.00/hr until he saw what I could do. Here it is eight months later and I'm still at the same rate. Before this warehouse job started, he promised me a raise. When I reminded him of his promise, his response was , "I don't recall that conversation." During this project I've managed all the subs, kept the books to within a penny, worked 70 hour weeks the past three months and gotten the place though every inspection the first time out. I was hoping for a bonus but I think the only one I'll get is the one I've already received without the benefit of lubrication. I'm quitting him today and going to work for the owners of the warehouse. Live and learn....
What would be the pay range for the Foreman?
In the SF Bay Area, 2+ years ago, up to around $32 per hour plus decent benefits. Start to finish on complex remodels of occupied homes, deal with everyone from the porta-potty pumper to the special inspections service, handle a site with anywhere from 3 to 25 people working simultaneously, exceptional knowledge of all trades, catch all mistakes made by subs, come in on or under budget, save my a$$ at least once a week, frame a complex roof with one hand while talking to three architects with the other... and oh yeah... email me your timesheet from your cell phone, please.
Basically, a guy who could easily be on his own but for some reason isn't.
I did that to my bosses before I asked to go from 14 to 19, I got 17 and was very happy. They told me if I kept it up in six months I'd get the rest of the raise. I pay my guys well, In Toronto area anyways good help is not hard to find it's next to impossible. I pay them alot to be good, they don't even come close to what I produced for my bosses back then, but thats why I'm the boss now. If he's making you that money and understands what's expected of him to allow you to pay him that much everything should work out nice.
Terminate him immediatly! Reason: no transportation...no apparent motivation (you can't teach hustle)...and an obvious dillusion about his talent/worth. This may sound harsh but business is business. I realize were not talking about a huge amount of money here but any wage increase that is less than he asked for will only prolong his discontent.
PaulBinCT,
How easy is it o replace him with the same or better employee? (at $15.00 an hour?)
If it is easy then stand firm or maybe offer a token raise..
If you've had to go thru a few to get this guy then you really know what he's worth..
I'd take a differant approach.. I'd ask him to become a partial partner.. Continue to pay him $15.00 an hour but tie it to a productivety bonus.. another words if he can work harder/ faster/ better and bring the job in sooner then he'll share in your increase in profits.
Use a reasonable standard. something that he sees his efforts will result in greater share of the profits.. Don't just arbitratily pick numbers each week and say, oh, this week you earned an additional $35.00 and last week it was $150..00
It's called enpowerment and it makes loyal employees who understand their wages area direct result of their efforts..
A lot of good ideas Frenchy, thanks. In this case though this fella is a good worker (not great but good) and is kinda the stereotypical "GenX" type, works hard but also tends to be pretty apathetic. In the end I told him that all other issues aside, a 33% raise was just out of the question, and offered him 10%, which he accepted. It's a tweak more than he may be worth, but not way out of line, and saves me the headaches of looking for someone when I'm buried in work. I anticipate needing to hire another fulltimer in the next month or so, and then I'll be in a better position to see what the candidates are like aroumd here right now...
PaulB
You should have listened to blueyedevil, Paul. He tried to tell you....
Allen in Santa Cruz
Paulbinct,
Have you tried showing him just how good he has it! I have tried using some simple math with my employees in an effort to embrace just how great they have it working for me.
For example:
There are 2080 straight time hours in a year (173.3 hours a month). With 3 weeks off for vacation and 8 days off for holidays and another 5 days off for personal and sick leave that leaves them working 1856 hours a year or 154.7 hours a month.
If I pay them $15.00 an hour with no benefits that will gross them around $2,320.00 a month. (pre tax). After taxes let’s say they net $1,740.00 a month.
Monthly expenses item
Monthly expense
Monthly take home pay =
$1,740.00
Balance
Vehicle pymt.
$225.00
$1,515.00
Vehicle Insurance
$68.00
$1,447.00
Vehicle Fuel& Fluids
$135.00
$1.312.00
Vehicle wear & maint.
$69.52
$1,242.48
Health Care
$400.00
$842.48
Retirement savings
$150.00
$692.48
Mortgage Pymt PITI
$1,120.00
Oops! how do you make a living at
$15.00 an hour
Groceries
Cell Phone
Medicines & Prescriptions
Utilities
Work Clothing & Footwear
Casual clothing & footwear
Dine out
Tithing
Gifts
Carpentry tools
TV services
Home maint.
Furniture & appliances
Hobbies
Entertainment
Gifts
Education
Debt other
Vacation & travel
The point is: As employers why is it that we do a great job of understanding what we need to fund our financial needs but fail miserably when it comes to understanding the needs of others?
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Good idea Tom but this guy is a youngun. I think he's just focused on what's in his pocket at the end of the week;)
Edited for update...grrrrrrr. Got a phone call this morning with a convoluted tale about his gf is moving in 2 weeks, and she wants him to go with her, anddddd someone offered him another gig at $20/hr anddddd if he is going to move he'll need the money yadda yadda yadda... he's supposed to call me tonight but time to find a new guy. If anyone's in my area and looking, lemme know..
sheeshhhhhhh
PaulB
Edited 10/17/2005 9:17 am ET by PaulBinCT
With 3 weeks off for vacation and 8 days off for holidays and another 5 days off for personal and sick leave
Dang it! Montana is just a tad too far to commute to work<g>!
Present conditions (that I want out of muchly): 1 week off (only starts to accrue at month 13); 5 holidays off (No Memorial Day here, unless you take Vacation, or are a corporate officer); 5 days sick time (go to a doc & bring the written proof in).
But then, my mortgage payment is only $560, too <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Been in the business for 35 years now. You can have all the best tools, truck equipment, etc. but people in the lng run are your greatest liability or asset.
When I am approached by an employee for a raise, I certainly evaluate their value and earnings potential for my company. Some are special and worth extra consideration, and others I may be better off without.
I think my approach would be to make a list of requiremnts you expect from a $20.00 per hour man, to include transportation, tools, skills and degree of trust. Degree of trust would include job responsiblities and whether of not you could trust him to give you an honest days work when you are not wathcing. Present appropiate portions of this list to him. If he can meet these requiremnts give him the raise, but anyone who needs to be picked up, and has limited tools is not worth $20.00 per hour to me. He is costing you time and money, being without these essentials.
One issue I am thinking of in imagining this scenario are the need to pick him up to get him on the job, the need to make sure your tools are rolled out and avaliable, the need to schedule your day so you can take him home. Bummer. I would be considering all of the productive things I could be doing (meetings for future projects / office time bidding a new project / bookkeeping for a current project / etc. ) instead of babysitting.
buy him a $300 car.
there's yer raise big guy ... and ya better keep on showing up on time!
worst comes to worse ... yer out $300.
after scanning all these posts ... I'da fired him two weeks ago. Can't stand "unmotivated" ... strikes me as what it really is ... lazy.
Can't stand lazy.
but ... there are plenty of butt ugly but running fine $300 cars out there ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Too late Jeff ;)
As I mentioned (I think) in another thread...he boned me in a big way. Gave him a 10% raise and two weeks later he quit out of the blue, no notice...apparently has something to do with his gf. Couldn't possibly have come at a worse time. I have 2 jobs 90% done with a lot of money tied up and another job I should have started. If I don't find someone real real real soon...
(Any variation on the shoulda dumped him theme is superfluous, thanks just the same)
"If I don't find someone real real real soon..."
do you really find yourself "that much" more productive with a helper?
I realized years ago that having a helper the whole way thru a job really didn't speed things up in the end. I grew up working for/with my Dad ... as he got older ... I found myself doing more and more of the work by myself. Even when he was there to help.
Just started looking at pretty much everything as a one man job.
I've had decent luck in the past rounding up a crew of buddies on one and two day basis for the extra hands when I need them. Every time I have relied on a helper .... each and every time ... sooner or later ... it's burned my in the end.
jigs, clamps, ledger's, rope, rental machines ... what ever it takes. It can usually be done by one guy if need be.
Not always ... but more times than not.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I think with some things (unfortunately the kinds of things I'm doing right now) that there's a exponential increase in speed... 2 guys can sometimes be 4 times as fast as one. Not always of course, and for many things I do prefer to work alone. Ask me again if I'm still here in a month...