I live in NE South Dakota and I pulled up to a big box store in my area and was approached by a man in the parking lot, he asked me what we would pay a guy who was an experienced carpenter who could do trim work? I replied that 14 to 15 per hour was what we could start at if he would not need to be supervised. He looked at me like I had just s^!t green apples. then I told him our highest paid man makes 16 per hour and he thought that was much too low.
My question is what do you pay your help, what are they required to do for those wages, and what is your geographical location? (near large cities, union, high cost of living, etc.)
Replies
You can hire a top hand here from 12 to 15 in any category.
Tops hands arent artists though or have supervisory expectations.
Tim
True "carpenters" who can work unsupervised are hard to find around here in Central NJ, and most demand a minimum of $25-30/hour if not more. A lot depends on what tools they're providing, the stability of the company, etc.
Bob
True "carpenters" who can work unsupervised
To me, by definition:
True 'carpenters' - work unsupervised.The heck, you say?
Since I'm kind of your neck of the woods, one state south, I think you're on par. Most carpenters who know what theyre doing here start at 12-15 as well. Rookies you can get for 8. And it isn't a lot. Darn hard to feed a family on. But that's what it is.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Here in Ct any clown with a hammer wants 20 bucks an hour. A top guy might get 30 and an artisan contractor will net 45 to 50
About the same here. A few bucks more at the top end when I was in the Bay Area.
This question comes up every month--shouldn't we just post a chart?
Nobody seems to agree I just read a post 66149.1 someone doing ceiling texture for a friend 225 sqft wants to know what to charge. One guy replies $45-60/ hour, but if you try to get that what happens? It is different if you work for someone and they pay you a wage versus going out on your own and charging for a job. If plumber's and HVAC guys can charge $75-95/ hour and good carpenter should be able to make $25-45/hour. (Actually more what do plumber's know).
I just did a one day job 6 hours told them I would do it for $600 took me less than I thought so I dropped my price to 500 still good money for 6 hours. That though is not the norm I aim for $35, most guys hear will pay 20-25 but with all the cheap south of the border labor that figure is falling.
Certainly it's different everywhere you go. Even within a particular area there are going to be pockets of high wages and pockets of lower wages. And what a guy gets has a lot to do with how he approaches people, who he approaches, how short his hair is, etc.
Are you Washington as in WA or DC? Whereabouts?
Mooney, when you say $12-15 is that the career guys working for the established companies on the nicest homes? If so, I'm surprised there aren't a bunch of guys with southern accents moving north and west. You'd have to be able to own a nice house on at least a couple of acres for $50K in order for those wages to work... and trucks and Levis would have to be half price.
it depends on where you live, here $8 a hour is good pay and have no problem living, Nobody here makes over $15. But then my power bill run $35 too. It depend on the area.2+3=7
here $8 a hour is good pay and have no problem living"
BB,
$hit, they make $12/hr at Mc Donalds in some states as a starting wage. I can't fathom anyone in a skilled trade making less than $20.00/hr and at least $35.00 - $40.00 if experienced, and I live in WI. Charge my dad ~$200/hr when I do work on his place in NY.
thats what I was saying, it depends on the area of the country.2+3=7
I hired a union guy from the east coast he told me he wouldn't work for less than 18 per hour. after some haggling I got him to start at 12. What i do know is if he is worth 18 the rest of the crew would be worth 20 but we just can't pay that rate around here.
im not that far away from you, in NE IA and a good carp. around here might make 20.00/ hr. If you're talking about what that carp. might get billed out for then you're close but it is hard to get more that 35.00/ hr out of the customers around here.
I been thinking about this all week, I saw a budget of a liberal. " But you owe me more money because I just bought ####50k truck" Wages are controlled by supply and demand. The consrvative method of capitalism. It would be hard to pay a guy 25 dollar a hour when the job can only bill 12 dollar a hour. Just because you claim to be top dog trademan means you can get paid that. It all about location and what the public will pay in that location. With the latin crews coming to town, the prices are going down. They use to be alot of minority crews in town, they have been replace by latin crews. They have demanded their selves out of a job. You can only get paid what you are worth. The worth is decided by what the public will pay for finish job. Look at blue, he always talking about speed, speed, speed in framing. you think he could stay in business which some slow people that did fine craftmans work.It the capitalizm system, what the public will pay, not the socializm system with, I want, I want, I want.. 2+3=7
Brownbag,<!----><!----><!---->
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Could you share with us “the budget of a liberal� Those of us conservatives sure are curious as to what it is you speak of.<!----><!---->
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For most people, the “fair wage†issue is a matter of need and not of greed.<!----><!---->
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In today’s market there is a steady supply and demand for Corvair’s and Chevy’s.<!----><!---->
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As in every “Location†some sell corvair’s and some sell Chevy’s <!----><!---->
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After almost 30 years of being self employed in the construction industry I am continuing being surprised at the consumers lack of knowledge as to what construction cost are. Ask any consumer what a 200 square foot deck will cost and you likely will get answers with a range of several thousand dollars<!----><!---->
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I recently sold a new home project in which the clients were originally ready to purchase an $80,000.00 modular. In 6 weeks we will complete their $200,000.00 home. (With some effort and skill one can take (bill) a $10.00 an hour job and turn it into a $30.00 an hour job. As some educated consumer’s see the value in the quality of such a practice) <!----><!---->
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By the way our price might have been higher but thankfully my carpenters are driving used pickup trucks. Once they are paid for we can even lower our pricing even more. Then we no longer have any physically depreciating assets/ liabilities <!----><!---->
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I have no knowledge as to whom blue is but every operation has to be efficient, of which speed is a factor. I have seen my share of fast framers and my share of great efficient craftsman framers. I notice the difference. If this blue has any longevity in business I would dare guess he has patterned himself to the latter. As a matter of fact it is my experiences that those who perform craftsman type work efficiently for a “fair living wage†as opposed those who do something different stand a better chance of surviving in business.<!----><!---->
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By the way in the bottom of your post I noticed (the sum of (2+3) = (7)<!----><!---->
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Looks like you are trying to get a lot of (I want) (I want) (I want) out of that poor old (5)<!----><!---->
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Respectfully submitted,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Tom,
I would like to work for you.
I have 20+ years in construction, started in the carp union and have had my J-ticket for over 15 years.
All I want is a fair wage.
BTW, as soon as I start I need to a new Cadilac Navigator and a 5000 sft home on a golf course or lake. I also need to buy new toys, I mean tools, at about $1K to $2K a month and will need to put $3K in a retirement fund as I haven't yet started one and need to hurry up. Oh yeah, I tithe 10% and owe $3K mon CS.
I think about $24K month x 12 after taxes would be fair.
When can I start?
SamT
Edited 12/6/2005 10:15 pm by SamT
Sam,<!----><!----><!---->
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Sounds like you are the guy for us.<!----><!---->
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I new if I hung around here long enough some one would show some interest in wanting an honest job at a “fair wageâ€<!----><!---->
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It see like your lifestyle is right in line with our mission statement. <!----><!---->
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We offer a competitive wage package that is base on individuals lifestyles so please send in your annual live it up in the big house budget. <!----><!---->
We also offer:<!----><!---->
A Hummve allowances assuming yours is not paid for<!----><!---->
Tool allowances this is assuming yours are not paid for<!----><!---->
Work clothing and footwear allowance once again assuming yours are paid for<!----><!---->
Cell phone use allowances ok again assuming yours is not paid for.<!----><!---->
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Please send your resume to our personnel department with a self addressed envelope (and stamp) To:<!----><!---->
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Wall street Construction Co.<!----><!---->
Attn: Betty Gitinrich Workinhere<!----><!---->
Pave with gold lane<!----><!---->
Money, <!----><!----><!---->Montana<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Br549<!----><!---->
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Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/6/2005 11:02 pm ET by TomMaynard
To all Fair wage followers:<!----><!----><!---->
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I got up early this morning; in the help wanted section of a local paper I came across ads for skilled labor in these following categories. It is my opinion that the skills of my master carpenters are similar to these positions respective to their field of employment.<!----><!---->
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Attorney wanted for a law firm<!----><!---->
Registered nurses wanted lat a local health care facility<!----><!---->
HVAC tech. wanted by a local heating contractor<!----><!---->
Engineer wanted at a local engineering firm<!----><!---->
Electricians wanted by a local electrical contractor<!----><!---->
Architect wanted by a local Architectural firm<!----><!---->
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All these positions paid around the $45,000.00 a year + benefits<!----><!---->
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Based on the local demographics lets see what a master carpenter would be paid. <!----><!---->
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Please disregard my earlier attempts to rationalize what a fair living wage might be as it obviously was far to overwhelming for some.
Tom<!----><!---->
Straight time salary analysis<!----><!---->
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Master Carpenter Min years experience = 6 yrs.<!----><!---->
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Total straight time hours annually = 2080<!----><!---->
- Vacation time off = 160 hrs<!----><!---->
- Holidays time off = 64 hrs.<!----><!---->
- Personal & sick leave time off = 40 hours<!----><!---->
Actual hours worked straight time annually = 1816 = (hours divisor)<!----><!---->
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A) Base salary = $45,000.00 = ($24.78)<!----><!---->
B) Employers Cash contribution for health & Dental = $8,400.00 = ($4.63)<!----><!---->
C) Employers Cash contribution to retirement fund = $1,350.00 = ($.74)<!----><!---->
Total annual salary & benefit package = $54.750.00<!----><!---->
D) Employee transportation orTruck allowance = ($.50) – ($2.30 truck)<!----><!---->
This individual = ($2.30) X 1816 hours = $4,176.80<!----><!---->
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1) Total Hourly pay =sum lines (A-D) = $58,892.80 / 1816 hours = $32.45<!----><!---->
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2) Payroll burden & Liability insurance = (31%) of lines (A-C) = $9.35<!----><!---->
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3) Total hourly cost this individual = Sum lines (1-2) =$41.80<!----><!---->
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Additional compensation paid on straight time hours only<!----><!---->
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E) Employees own tool use allowance = ($.35 - $2.00) @ $28 per $1,000.00 of tool value<!----><!---->
F) Cell phone use allowance = $.17 (when applicable)<!----><!---->
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Total allowances this individual = Sum lines (E-F) = ($ )<!----><!---->
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Note lines (D-F) funded from contactors overhead revenues<!----><!---->
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Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/7/2005 11:05 am ET by TomMaynard
TomI am afraid brownbagg and bill are largely correct ( and i actually shudder to think that they might be correct from time to time about other things as well lol) wants are not the same as needs and needs are not the same as what a worker has actually earned.
I hired a guy several years ago to work as a roofer. He started at $16/hour and the very next day I bumped him to $17 an hour. He was in his early 40's at that time and had spent most of his career working as a sub----- he could get things done
but over the next few weeks things slowly headed downhill----- he had some " tricks " he liked to use---that might have worked ok when slamming out new construction volume---but that just weren't appropriate in my usual enviornment-------- and he constantly talked about all the OTHER things he could do besides roofing--- how he could drywall, how he was a great carpenter, how he could build stairs----he just droned on and on
Well---he had been happy to be hired at $16/hour to lay shingles--- but over a few weeks his mantra became " I want to be paid for what I know "---becoming increasingly belligerent
eventually I had to take him aside and tell him straight out " Look--- I am in the roofing business---it is of NO value to me whatsoever if you can drywall, or install cabinets or build stairs----because I don't offer those services to my customers. the only thing I care about is can you roof---and how well you do that "
eventually I had to let him go---he was WAY more trouble than he was worth.
A fair wage is really relevant to what you actually do---not what you THINK you could be doing. Guys earning $12/hour to just lay shingles were a much fairer arrangement.
BTW---you frequently use the term Master carpenter.
Personally I don't think a guy with 6 years experience is really likely to be a master of anything. He may have basic knowledge and a certain level of proficiency in a number of aspects---but I doubt he has mastered the complete trade. I suspect MOST guys with 6 years experience---really have about 1 1/2 years experience---repeated 4 times
If thats the case---the guy with 6 years experience is not worth anymore than the guy with 1 1/2 years experince---in fact probably less. the guy with 6 years experience has demonstrated his potentiall ( not that high)------ the guy with 1 1/2 years experience may still be a diamond in the rough with tremendous upside.
Maybe I am harsh----but I think a lot of guys aren't really worth what they THINK they are worth----and it is a blow to their self image when the marketplace bears this out in fact.
best wishes to you---you seem like a guy making an effort to be MUCH more than fair,
Stephen
Steve,
A Master Carpenter with 6 years experience.
It takes, or at least, took, 7 years to get from apprentice to journeyman in the carps' union.
I suspect MOST guys with 6 years experience---really have about 1 1/2 years experience---repeated 4 times
I agree. I never realized how much I don't know, until I was working for myself. I worked for almost 8 years on a crew, and thought I knew a lot. Now, I realize that I didn't even scratch the surface. I still learn everyday, and my processes are constantly evolving.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
a point I was trying to make. a wage is only what the market will bear. If a person think he needs more money, then boss has to raise his rate to the customer. If the customer will not pay it, then you stuck at your fair wages.now if you a craftman and you own you company then you make more money by doing more production. Remember the market will bear just so much. If everybody raise everybody to a fair wages, then prices will jump. That is inflation. Look at what gas prices did to produce prices. So now you making more money but still buying less.That is the argument about minimum wage increase.and to answer one question HVAC tech with five years exprience here is $9 a hour.. 2+3=7
$9.
Wow, I couldn't even get a hungover good-fer-nothing teenager to show up two hours late for that wage. They want $12 to show up an hour late and get damn near nothing done.
rememeber 99% of our weather needs A/C. The local trade school is turning out 300 techs every quarter. There is not enough work for them.. 2+3=7
Do you reside in a third world nation or are you stuck in the 1970's? Your numbers don't coincide with reality. Maybe it's just me. Something I read once about living well on $1000 a month.
This post/thread goes to the heart of why I believe carpenters are getting underpaid...
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=66773.1
How many other professions literally wear out a person???
more to say later...
Mr. T.
"I YAM WHAT I YAM AND THATS ALL THAT I YAM"
-U.S. Sweet Potato Council
Durabond5,<!----><!----><!---->
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The great thing about this forum is we get some great input from others.<!----><!---->
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Reading through this thread it is amazing the various opinions of what constitutes a “fair wage†and or what the cost of living variables there are in the different parts of the country.<!----><!---->
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What I have not seen on this thread is any specific mathematical methodology that addresses “the cost of making a decent living†and the “hourly salaries†that would support real living cost.<!----><!---->
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Bill Hartmann has made some valid points about the deficiencies in my mathematical calculations and my fair wage theories concerning how to arrive at a “fare wageâ€. I am eagerly awaiting a response from him that might include not only some of his philosophies concerning this issue, but more importunately to me would be some of his mathematical methodology that supports his “fair wage†considerations.<!----><!---->
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As I review some of Brownbags post I will readily admit that I was doing some selective listening. He consistently mentioned Location- Location - Location when he spoke of his “fair wage theoriesâ€. As I read again some of his comments I started to comprehend that in his location everything in respect to the cost of goods and services is relative. “This is the same thing Uncle Dad told me†and I wasn’t listening to him either.<!----><!---->
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Having said that, I have given some thought to the $1,000.00 monthly gross salary browbag has mentioned. This $1,000.00 a month according to him is a “Fair†and sufficient real monthly living gross salary and benefit package for his location. <!----><!---->
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At $1,000.00 a month gross salary. (Depending of whether or not the employer offers paid time off) this hourly gross salary could be in the range of $5.77 per hour with paid time off or some where in the $6.60 per hour range with out paid time off.<!----><!---->
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My hourly salary contribution for these positions: Master carpenter - Project manager – Estimator- Sales Individual or Owner would look like this:<!----><!---->
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Base hourly pay= $21.50<!----><!---->
Pre paid time off add (15%) to base pay = $3.23<!----><!---->
Health Dental and Retirement contribution (Cash) $ 4.95<!----><!---->
Transportation incentive Maximum allowance = $2.50<!----><!---->
Total hourly comp = $32.18<!----><!---->
Add: for tool allowance “production staff only†($.35) – ($2.00)<!----><!---->
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Assuming the above math is correct then brownbags salary would be some $6.60 per hour. Assuming my same labor burden as mine the total direct cost of labor would be $6.60 X (1.31%) = $8.65 per hour<!----><!---->
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My payroll burden including Fica Futa Suta Work comp & Liability insurance runs about (31%) of direct labor cost. Therefore a master carpenter would cost me around $41.38 (with out a tool allowance) (which is funded from overhead <!----><!---->
Revenues. <!----><!---->
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Comparing the two direct labor cost <!----><!---->
($8.65) vs: (41.38)<!----><!---->
(20%) vs: (100%)<!----><!---->
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My overhead on labor, using a “labor only index for overhead recovery†would be around (54%) assuming everything is relative, his overhead mark up would be some (20%) of mine or (10.8%) <!----><!---->
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Total gross invoice rates per hour = ($ 8.65) X (1.108) = $9.58<!----><!---->
($41.38 X (1.54) = $63.73<!----><!---->
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Using this information we can successfully conclude that in his market location the cost of goods and services might be some 15% of the same goods and services in my market.<!----><!---->
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Therefore one could expect to pay for these goods and services in brownbags location these cost.<!----><!---->
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Attorney invoice rates: $16.50 per hour<!----><!---->
A cubic yard of concrete: $13.20<!----><!---->
Rent: $82.50 per month small home<!----><!---->
A gal of gasoline: $.34<!----><!---->
A 12†Dewalt power miter: $74.85<!----><!---->
A ¾†sheet of cdx plywood: $3.30<!----><!---->
A postage stamp: $.15<!----><!---->
A new 4x4 chevy crew cab pick up truck $5,100.00<!----><!---->
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It is just like the real-estate market it is all location location location.<!----><!---->
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I apologies for any mathematical miscalculations on the above math, as math is not my strong suit. <!----><!---->
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Tom<!----><!---->
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<!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Thats the point I was saying earlier about the ratios: Just because the housing is cheaper in a given locale, doesn't mean everything else is in proportion. Even if your house was paid off you would still need money to eat and live. I guess you could live off the land, but that is not what we are talking about with fair wage discussion. Brownbagg said he could live off a grand a month, not that he makes a1000 a month.
I've heard the "but the cost of living is so much lower here" speech about a 1/2 dozen times in the past two years, and I can tell you it's a pile of bull. I'm in central NJ, which has one of the highest housing costs in the country. Over the past two years, I had the opportunity to relocate to Houston, Phoenix, Atlanta, and Charlotte- all much lower on the "cost of living scale" according to the magazines, books, etc. Here's what I found:
- My 3-BR, 1 BA cape is worth around $350k in NJ. Nothing fancy, but clean, in a good neighboorhood with good schools and low crime. In every one of the places noted above, I'd hear about how I could "buy a house that size" for around $100k. Unfortunately, they were all in old, decaying neighborhoods with crappy schools. To get into a neighborhood I'd be willing to live in, I'd need to spend more like $200-250k- not as big of a difference as they make it seem at first. In general, my mortgage payment would remain the same (I have a mortgage on this house, and would have a similar size mortgage on the new place), but the property taxes would be maybe $250/month lower.
- Cars, clothes, gas, food, TVs, etc., are all the same price in NJ that they are in all those other locations. Car insurance may be up to $100/month less (optimistically).
- Total savings per month over my current conditions are in the realm of $350-400/month, which equates to around $500/month gross, or $6,000 year. Yet, the salary ranges for my position were typically $30-40,000/year lower than here in NJ. So what makes up the balance of the loss over the $6k that I can absorb due to the lower RE tax and car insurance??
Sure, I could not get a new car every two years, buy a house in a run-down neighborhood, buy less stuff for my kids, eat out less, take fewer vacations, etc.- but why should I have to adjust my standard of living because someone thinks the "cost of living is so much lower here"?? Heck, I'm sure I could figure out how to live on $1,000/month like Brownbagg states (I could, my wife couldn't.....lol)- but that would require complete lifestyle shifts just to meet the "lower cost of living" theory.
Bob
I couldn'ta said it any better.
Dustin,
I think you phrased it very elegantly
I wish I could get to the point that well instead of laboring on and on--- LOL.
I think that after 6 years of training,education and work------- a normal person has really only learned how to LEARN.
If you ask any reasonably accomplished person in a specific art,trade ,or profession to evaluate their work with 6 years into the career---against their work 20-30 years later-----------
well there is no comparison.
sometimes I still learn something about shingling---but not often anymore. but wait---look at all the other things waiting for me to REALLY get good at---- hanging doors, cutting dovetails by hand, soldering copper flashing, building windows and doors from scratch----------- waiting for me to get REALLY good.
At age 43 there isn't enough time left---will have to prioritize--pick my battles.
best wishes, Stephen
Stephen,<!----><!----><!---->
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A little background on the production payroll staff I have employed over the years.<!----><!---->
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Four of my master carpenters have had construction technologies degrees from a leading university.<!----><!---->
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All four of these mastered the skills of not only their trade but have an in depth knowledge in the science of construction – studied engineering – participated in architectural courses – have master skills in production and project management Have education at mid level in the mechanical field and continue to educate themselves. <!----><!---->
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These four applied themselves and accomplished these tasks in approximately 6 years. During their 6 years of education they worked off semesters in the field of carpentry. So it can be done.<!----><!---->
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I do realize however that if one was to pick up a guy on a work release program for example that this individual may not have the initiative to progress as quickly.<!----><!---->
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You come across as a pretty sharp guy could you tell me how on $12.00 an hour a master roofer provides one self with a decent living?<!----><!---->
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I just got of the phone with my roofer as I was inquiring what a master roofer might make gross salary and his comment was around $25.00 an hour. This roofing contractor had no employee tool carry requirements. I realize the work comp issue is such that legitimate roofers might have to chare some $60.00 -$80.00 a square –(labor overhead & profit) for a basic straight forward single story roof with very minimum base- step – counter –Valley mental - flashings and roof penetrations.<!----><!---->
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Respectfully,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Tom,
with all due respect---- I think the designation you want to hang on your 4 "Master Carpenters" is non-sense.
there is a japanese craftsman in this country( Toshio Odate) who has written some books about building Shoji, Japanese tools, his traditional apprenticeship in Japan etc.-----------I would have to dig up the EXACT quote---but he said something I appreciate--to the effect that in His background the highest insult to a workman would be to call him a slow worker---and that to truly master your trade one had to produce BOTH very high quality work--and at a rapid rate of speed----for instance his expected quota was one very high quality Shoji per day- ( this was from start to finish---rough unplaned material to finished product.
your 4 " master carpenters" are most likely talented managers----but I truly doubt they can be said to be "Masters" in any traditional sense of the word.
I simply do not think it is remotely possible to achieve a 4 year university degree AND learn a carpentry trade AND have the speed and quality with tools to be anything like a traditional master.
your guys are probably quite competent journeymen, with a 4 year degree, and perhaps even good managers----probably very good generalist with a certain degree of people skills
however
If we were to take virtually any basic carpentry operation----there are many ,MANY guys on this forum who will clean their clocks. will they be able to frame a roof in the time it would take dieselpig?, slam in a prehung door in the time it takes Blue, Fabricate jambs and hang a slab from scratch with the artistry Jeff Buck might accomplish---in the same time? Come anywhere near Stan Fosters Stairs?
Because of the time commitment required to achieve a 4 year degree, I think it is impossible to invest the time needed to to develope the muscle memory and 1001 little tricks of the trade to develope the proficiency with tools to really call yourself a MASTER with a straight face
I have no doubt that you have 4 very good men---but I think the term "master" as you are using it is an artifical,modern marketing term with very little relationship to historical accuracy.
Now----you asked about the economics of roofing?( basic shingle installation)
Basically------ each spring I can hire a young man with Zero--or near zero experience ( $8-10/hour). within 2 weeks he will have been exposed to the basics----and within 6 months he would be competent to lay out and shingle an average roof---say one with a valley or 2 and a single sidewall intersection At 6 months $12/hour
however ---it would take him a couple of years of reasonably steady dailey work---of a highly repetitive nature---to really develope SPEED---maybe $15/hour
so---after 2-3 years he has topped out at about $15/hour as an employee--and he is no bargain at the $15---- from MY standpoint the $12 guy is a much better value.
what's the $15 an hour guy to do---he is at a dead end.
Well hopefully he has accumulated a ladder, a truck and a few hundred dollars of tools.
hopefully he has learned a few things about how to treat homeowners, how to treat suppliers, and has made some contacts. hopefully he hasn't covered himself with tatoos.
Even at $15 an hour--allowing for weather,winter, normal slowdowns delays etc.
as an employee he was never going to make much more than $20,000 a year.
if he goes out on his own---and he is reasonably smart---he is going to quickly find that he can earn MULTIPLES of that.
but---to earn Multiples of that he has to do something other than supply a commodity.
his money will NOT be earned by carrying shingles up a ladder, or flashing a chimney.
It's earned by other things, ADDED VALUE, Percieved Value, Reputation, Reliability, ability to manage time,money,materials,manpower, Ability to anticipate, ability to solve problems etc.
the $10-12/hour guy---he is usually living with a parent or sharing an apartment with several guys---partying almost every night and every weekend---his whole future ahead of him( like a college student that age 18-20
The $15/hour guy---if he is more than 4-5 years older---say 25---he has got a problem--he MUST move on to his own gig---or progress into more refined levels of workmanship---like carpentry
Because by 30---if he is still humping shingles on the clock---he is screwed
On the other hand---if he has moved on to his own gig---well he might have a reasonably bright middle class future. It's largely a matter( not entirely though)--of his own individual choices.
Best wishes to you, Stephen
Hazlett,
Actually I asked you this question. This thread is about a fair wage.<!----><!----><!---->
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You come across as a pretty sharp guy could you tell me how on $12.00 an hour a master roofer provides one self with a decent living?<!----><!----><!----><!---->
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Let me help get you started $12.00 an hour pretax after taxes lets assume $10.00 an hour X 154 hours a month = $1,540.00<!----><!---->
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Gross monthly salary = $1,540.00 (less living expenses0)
lets see it!<!----><!---->
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By the way Webster’s Definition of a master is: A workman skilled in his or her trade.<!----><!---->
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I will take your word for it that the individuals you mentioned in your post meet this definition. Trust me also when I state that the masters under my employee are of the same qualifications. <!----><!---->
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Respectfully,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
I say I,m a master at my trade with 23 years exprience, and I dont make much more than that roofer and I live fine.. 2+3=7
Brownbag,<!----><!----><!---->
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I am sure you are just as you say: a master of your trade. And only you really know just how good you are living. I also have no question it must be just fine. <!----><!---->
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Tom
The sum of: (2+3) = (5) I think!Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Tom,
several points
1) you are insisting on using the term "Master"---when what you are really mostly describing is a simply competent journeyman at best. I would expect a " Master" to have experience and abilities FAR beyond anything you have described.
2) any guy working for me at $12/hour-------- he is competent at the tasks I have for him----but he certainly isn't a " master" of anything. I have ZERO interest in employing a " master"------- in fact I sincerely doubt that any " master" with the rarest of exceptions would ever work for wages.
I would not be interested in hiring ANYONE who claimed competence in copper roofing, slate work, rubber roofing, extensive sheet metal experience etc. In general I don't serve those markets---so those skills would not be worth paying for.
What I do need---are men who can carry 80# bundles or 100# rolls up ladders with out significant complaints, who can shovel up debris and load it in a truck, who can install shingles on MY layout---primarily in the field as I handle the flashing work, who can hold one end of this board while I position the other, who can climb ladders all day. who can get out of bed and show up.
Basically I need guys in the 18-20-22 year age group.
3) the economics of how they provide a living on $12/hour?????
I essentially already told you this----in that age group they are generally living with one or both parents, or they share an apartment with a number of similarly aged friends.--- largely it's a college boy lifestyle---drinking every weekend, various mid week binges etc.---typical of the age group and socioeconomic background they seem to come from.
there is no career path with me----most will stay a few months if that---and then move on for various reasons. It's a minor irritation at worst--mostly it's really convenient for me because I have absolutely no interest in being a long term employer. When they arrive they usually have no experience, no tools, often no transportation---- when they leave---they are a few months older, I have generally helped them accumulate their basic hand tools, they often have bought a vehicle( useing my company as a reference to get a car loan)---and they have learned a LOT about getting up each morning and doing some hot, sweaty outdoor work,---they have also learned the basics of laying out and shingling a simple roof.
4) you seem to be looking for a mathematical formulae or "proof" that a certain wage is " fair"---- this is largely self-delusional.
If you arrive at a formulae " proofing" that $32/hour is fair----but the folks you want to hire won't sign on for less than $38/hour--what use is your formulae?
On the other hand--- I can run an ad. in the newspaper on almost any sunday---and By Weds. I will have had approx. 80 calls from young men willing to start work tommorrow at $8-10/hour and work up to $12/hour within a couple of months ( usually 2-3 young women as well)
the market--in combination with the worker sets a " fair wage"
Can a 19 year old earning $12/hour afford a stay at home wife, a couple kids and a house in the suburbs?---NO---but he isn't really supposed to have those things at age 19 is he.
could he and a working spouse afford a " fixer-upper" in a " transitional neighborhood?----absolutely.
If he applies himself---could he acquire the skills, tools, and credit rating by age 25 or so to start his own small business and earn many times what he currently earns as employee wages------- ABSOLUTELY.
I did it( and I am by no means a " MASTER" )-----and many, Many, MANY folks on this forum have done essentially the same.
I hope I answered your question as I understood it.
If there is something specifically that you want to "pin me down on"---please ask and I will answer to the best of my abilities.
Best wishes,
Stephen
Stephen,
I wonder why you don't own a shingle lift to help get shingles to the roof and not have to "bull" all that material up.
Your 8 and 10 dollar men would last longer no doubt.
Best regards,
Walter
walterordinarily my suppliers give me rooftop deliveryand really___it is not in my guys best long term interests to stay longer than they doits not in my interest eitherso everything works out wellbtw supplier rtd is so common here____its the norm_____laddervators are virtuallynever seen and not really neededthanks for the suggestion thoughstephen
my company, an engineering firm is owned by a phd. nearly 3/4 of the staff has bachelor degrees. He will not hire anybody with a master degree because he claims, its his company and he wants nobody who think he smarter than him.. 2+3=7
Brownbag,
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I bet there are a lot of companies out there that do the very same thing.
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I recall when I started my construction company I did the exact same thing. Then after attending a seminar on such a subject I started to think more about it. Since then I started to hire up. (Hiring those who had more skills in their field of expertise than me.) Not to hard to do at my current apprentice level though.
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Tom<!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Stephen, <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The more we correspond the more I understand your business profile.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I have picked up some differences in how you operate your business relative to how my roofing contractor has structures his.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
My roofer’s pricing structure is probably in the upper 10% of our market<!----><!---->
His employee’s have “upper level†“technical†and “application†skills (Please note I did not use the word “Master†here)<!----><!---->
He hires for life: By that I mean his plan is to keep his Employees from hire on through their retirement.<!----><!---->
He has a continuing education plan in place<!----><!---->
His advertising campaign states we guarantee to beat anyone’s quality (by the way he never mentions the guarantee to beat everyone’s price)<!----><!---->
His salary contribution seem to me to be sufficient and consistent with the “cost of making a fair livingâ€<!----><!---->
The suppliers of roofing products around here will stock the roofs with the products relative and specific to the roofing application. This would logically reduce the man (woman) power and sweat that might be associated with loading these items with by hand.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The one thing that has surprised me about this entire thread is that with all the mention of hourly pay there has not been one post that has tried to substantiate the hourly pay relative to the “fair cost of making a livingâ€. Of these post I do not know how many of these individuals run their own business. I could only guess not that many. As if I were to structure my gross hourly structure in such a way I would with out question be running in the red the day I started.<!----><!---->
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Respectfully submitted,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Long thread and a good one. More and more we
find the work world is getting so each skill
markets to a narrower and narrower segment.
Being a master of the whole market isnt really
good business. Sure, some can do it or like to
do it but for most you find a niche and fill
it at least as good as the next guy and probably
better if you are going to be successful. Being
a generalist can relegate you to being a
handyman. Truth is that a good handyman is
like gold in more populated areas but no matter
how good and how fast this fellow will never make
real money. He just cannot ask and get above
a certain point.
With the great influx of immigrant workers, the
only parts of construction where natives can
compete will be where education and licensing
is required. That takes time , money and a long
term plan. If I was a kid starting out, Id look
toward plumbing , HVAC and electrical work.
Onder
Thanks,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
You are right on with finding ones nitch. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
We are now seeing a real market for quality work as more and more consumers voice their frustration with the lack of competency and quality in the projects that they have built. The guy who only knows how to drive a 6 penny nail( probably very well mind you) may become obsolete.<!----><!---->
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It seams that there continues to be a lost of interest for people entering the construction trades. Low pay and demandingly hard work therefore I see a better market for those individuals with real skills.<!----><!---->
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Our market nitch has been for some time know is selling our services to the educated and discriminating consumer.<!----><!---->
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Our in house production staff specializes in Framing, exterior carpentry finishes and interior trim.
As you mentioned being a master of the whole market makes poor business scence
<!----><!----> <!----><!---->
<!----> We also concentrate on project delivery through efficient project management.<!---->
<!----><!---->
As you mentioned this market is very narrow. But its seems to be provide everyone with satisfactory compensation. The consumer and the staff.<!----><!----><!---->
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/10/2005 11:28 am ET by TomMaynard
If I was a kid starting out, Id looktoward plumbing , HVAC and electrical work.HVAC would be fun, but there a trade school up the road turning out 300 tech every 90 days. So no money in this area. Its like airplane mechanics, just no jobs.I would go electrical, plumbing or industial maintance.. 2+3=7edit, I would go military like navy, airforce, coast guard
Edited 12/10/2005 12:26 pm by brownbagg
Onder,
While this may be some what off topic a couple things that we have changed based on what the market will bear and the narrowing of market segments? And that is our Mark up or margins.
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When you spoke of narrowing or specializing in markets and services I thought about how we have changed with the times.
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When I first heard a contractor friend of mine comment on how he handled his mark ups or margins I thought he had totally lost it. He applies no margin or mark up to subs.
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His entire overhead revenue comes from his payroll index.
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My first impression was there was no way one could operate a business with such a model. Boy was I wrong!
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When I have interviewed potential clients with concerns they have regarding their proposed construction project I with out question get asked if I mark up sub contractors.
This issue is of great mystery to them. Why do I need to apply some (10%-50%) mark up on subs? From the consumers perspective I have to agree. After all, they purchase other professional services and in none of those instances do they receive a mark up for services supplied out side the principal’s primary service.
<!----> <!---->
About two years ago during pre construction negotiations a client of ours in the service sector of the local market prior to the sale of the project put it to me this way: Lets assume there will be $100,000.00 in sub contractor support services on my project. (This does not include any carpentry & project management labor: framing, exterior finish: decks, handrails or interior trim and closets etc.) At a 20% margin this amounts to some $25,000.00. Just look at what this revenue could do alone to support the portions of work done by the carpentry and project management staffing cost.
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Needless to say he did not get any argument from me.
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Since that time we have totally revisited our overhead structure leaned it down and stripped away the fat. Today we use a labor only index to fund overhead and profit. The last three projects we have won I have used this as a tool in which to set ourselves apart from the competition.
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Change, I keep reminding myself to be open minded of it and accept it.
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Tom
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Onder Wrote:<!----><!----><!---->
With the great influx of immigrant workers, the<!----><!---->
only parts of construction where natives can<!----><!---->
compete will be where education and licensing<!----><!---->
is required. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
This is a great point and probably has a great influence on our abilities to provide our staff with fair and decent living wages in certain parts of the country.<!----><!---->
Living in southwestern <!----><!----><!---->Montana<!----><!----> this labor force has not the impact that it may have on other parts of the country. I have nothing against an immigrant as individuals, (my forefathers were just that). I do take issue with the depressed situation they have placed on this country through the ridiculous wages they are willing to work for. While they may be substantially better of than the area they moved from the fact still remains it will be only a matter of time if this trend continues that our country will have an economy similar to the one the imigrants left. This out sourcing of cheap labor may just be the straw that breaks the camels back.<!----><!---->
Just one mans opinion though.<!----><!---->
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Tom<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Stephen wrote:<!----><!----><!---->
If we were to take virtually any basic carpentry operation----there are many ,MANY guys on this forum who will clean their clocks. will they be able to frame a roof in the time it would take dieselpig?, slam in a prehung door in the time it takes Blue, Fabricate jambs and hang a slab from scratch with the artistry Jeff Buck might accomplish---in the same time? Come anywhere near Stan Fosters Stairs?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Individuals name
Skill level appointment<!----><!---->
* Apprentice
* Journey man
* Master
Total hourly compensation Including Wage Benefits
& Transportation Allowance
NOTE: Excludes employee tool allowances
dieselpig
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Blue
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Jeff Buck
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Stan Fosters
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<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
As under my employee
Upper level skills - Technical Knowledge and performance abilities
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<!----> <!---->
$33.00 + -<!----><!---->
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Stephen,
<!----> <!---->
Would you mind entering your opinion of the skill classification for the individuals you mentioned in your post? This might help communicate the skills relative to the compensation I might provide for my employee.
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I get the impression based on your above comments that these individuals would classify as masters (based under my definition of such).
The four individuals (employees) I mentioned in a previous post I feel have advanced & upper level skills from both a technical performance. (you call them masters journeyman just don’t call the late for lunch) In addition to these skills they have specific training (university) and recognized acknowledgment in production management – structural - mechanical engineering.
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Their experience full time in the carpentry field varies from 12- 32 years
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TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
tom< your roofer and i share at least one common characteristic we both probably charge in the upper ten percent for our areain fact some years ago on a roofing forum i mentioned the rates i custumarily charged and my peers around the country told me that either i was lieing or delusional_______ that the rates i charged could not be obtainedbut of course just because they don"t get those rates doesn"t mean that i don"t get those ratesand i am pretty sure that someone in their areas is also getting those rates___but it is someone like me____virtually unknown _______ dealing now almost entirely word of mouth> now____regaurding those four people i mentioned>______it was perhaps a mistake to mention anyone specifically by name______ they can speak for themselves if they choose i believe each of those people i mentioned excells at different thingsbut someone purporting to be a master better excell at darn near everythingi am confused though_______at one point i thought you mentioned that your masters had achieved that status in six years but now you are indicating they have considerably more time in than thatwith all apologies it simply doesn"t matter to me how good your guys are are what they are paidmy concern would be that any employees i might have from time to time feel that they are paid fairlybest wishesstephen
I have found it difficult at best to communicant information and the feed back on these forums. If we were sitting down face to face and carrying on a conversation over these issues a lot our feelings could be better understood between us.
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While posting the discussion of a fair wage it seems it was the qualifications of an employee that raised the most issues, primarily the use of the term “master trades individualâ€.
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As a general rule and I use this term loosely the invoice cost for an hourly unit of work is around double the salary & benefit package a trade worker receives. Therefore, if my roofer pays his or her skilled installer $25.00 an hour then the invoice rate would be some $ 50.00 an hour. However, knowing that roofers are burdened with a higher work comp rate I suspect this rate might be higher, lets say $55.00 for discussion sake. Based on that my roofer would need some where in the range of $60.00 - $80.00 a square to install for quality application on a new construction for a basic 3 tab roof shingle, on a single story house with an average amount of valley, step, base flashings and penetrations.
<!----> <!---->
Does this seem logical?
By the way: No need to apologize I appreciate your spirited debate. Thanks
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TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
TomI should only comment on what my experience has been>i am not doing any new construction work and the vast majority of my roofing work involves tearing off the existing roofingmy customers basically know me or at least know someone who knows me wellmost customers originate within a eight to twelve block radius of my homethis has been the case for the eighteen or so years i have been in businessgenerally i will charge from three hundred eighty to around five hundred dollars per square i of course am includeing the materials in that pricei am still occasionally down around three huindred fourty per square but i also occasionally get up in the seven to eight hundred dollars per square range depending on danger and complexityi would prefer to do the work entirely alone but sometimes as i have mentioned circumstances require employees during the spring and fall rushesi also have a few small companies that i sometimes sub out some or all of a job tooone favorite in particular charges me in the range of one hundred dollars to a top so far of onehundred sixty dollars per squarehis crew is paid hourly< is covered by workers comp<he carries liability insurance and he has always been honest and trustworthyhis price includes tearoff<installation and dump feesabout carpentry ratesapprox two thirds of my production time is spent in roofing related activitiesabout one third in carpentry related activitiesi am slowly transitioning out of roofing and into more carpentryvery simple carpentry__door replacement<windows_ re_siding a garage<replacing redwood siding on various locations of old houses_rebuilding soffits etci charge a much lower rate for those projects as they are entirely stress free and virtually without risk>although i don"t reveal an hourly wage to the homeowner i give them a lump sum price which i have internally calculated on a minimum rate of fourty five dollars per hour> in almost every case i will greatly beat my time estimate and so the actual rate works out much better than the fourty five dollars per hour rate>the four individuals i previously mentioned are infinitely more skilled than i am and they do infinitely more involved projectsi can only assume that they are able to command carpentry rates far and above what i earn with my dabblingplease keep in mind that i am essentially subsidizing a carpentry hobby with my roofing activities> by the time i give up roofing entirely i expect my carpentry skills and the rates i earn will be considerably greater btw please excuse the rather bizzarre typing in these last few postsi am not nearly as stupid as this typing is making me appearbut i am just stupid enough not to be able to unjam this effen keyboard lolreally best wishes to youstephen
Tom, I can answer for myself. I'm not really a master at anything. I'm pretty good at residential frames but I've intentionally avoided working on exotic residential frames. I wouldn't be interested in framing a parabolic oval ceiling over a 32' foyer like I've seen some do here. I just laugh when someone approaches me with plans for a 10000 sf house perched on a treacherous walkout but some people thrive on that in here.
Those guys might be great at those types of installations but I doubt that they'd whip me at a 3200 custom.
then again, maybe they would. I'm over the hill and happy to be there.
Like I said, I'm not really a master at anything but not afraid to admit it.
As far as wages, you couldn't pay me enough to work as an employee for you at any wage. Since I'm honest, I wouldn't take any amount because I know I'd probably get bored with knowing I was an employee even if you were paying me $1000 per hour! I'm independent. I don't work as an employee in Carpentry for anyone.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
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I hear you brother.
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I am not into those homes perched 1000 ft above any stable ground either. Then again I am afraid of heights. When I get done running crown molding for example it is installed so low some think it’s a chair rail. Make it a three piece set and some might think the base shoe was set a little high for easy cleaning.
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As far as one of those 32 foot witchamacallits over some one’s foyer you were talking about in your post, forget it. The only way I passed geometry (1) was the fact that I promised never to date the teacher’s daughter.
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As far as me being employed as a carpenter employee I with you on that one. It is not because no one will hire me mind you.
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“Master†I swore I would never hit those keys again after the 20 page dissertation I received from Hazelett about what constitutes a “master†I could only envision his oriental friend who speaks of the definition of “master†breaking my door down in the middle of the night and Ticwondowing me to a pulp.
<!----> <!---->
I think I will start a new consulting business for individuals looking to establish fair wages into their company business plan?
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TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
sorry to bore you tom,
I did my best to answer each question you asked of me fully and to the best of my abilities
please skip past anything I write in the future.
BTW------ you certainly have a corner of the 20 page dissertation market yourself
heck some of them are so long they have to be continued on a seperate page
Learn some manners ,
Stephen
Edited 12/11/2005 6:07 am ET by Hazlett
Hazlett,
Lighten up! I was just jerking you chain a little.
Honestly, I thought you might find some humor in that paragraph. If any one is long winded it is me. I am sorry if I have offended you in any way. Ignore your post no way. Under options I have you on my hot mail.
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/11/2005 11:31 am ET by TomMaynard
think I will start a new consulting business for individuals looking to establish fair wages into their company business plan?
Thats probably a good idea! Theres really no easy answer. After 30 years I still don't have a clue. mostly the market dictates and I decide if I have to accept their demands.
blue
Blue,
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I think your right when you said there is no easy answer.<!----><!---->
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What I find most interesting about this thread is we can not agree here among ourselves (a basically small group) as how to calculate or arrive at a fair wage. I do not think it is unreasonable for skilled persons working in this industry to expect to make a living wage at ones employment.<!----><!---->
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I submitted a hypothetical person budget prior on this thread. I intentionally left a couple of basic living expenses off the budget just to see how many would pipe in about my deficiencies. Amazed, instead what we saw was feed back on how excessive the budget was.
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In regards to what the market will bear: I personally feel most economically sound markets in <!----><!----><!---->America<!----><!----> today will support decent and fair wages for those working in the skilled service sector. Doctors – Teachers - Carpenters - Painters - Auto mechanics and this list can go on.
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Bobkovacs & Stinger both made some valid points, with the exception of housing cost, the cost of other goods and services are on par with one and other across this country.
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We have seen some great input here.
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Respectfully,
Tom Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
you keep bringing up the same point, decent and fair wage. decent and fair is not the same. decent wages is what a employee wants. a fair wage is what the market will bear from the employer point of view. what the work is worth in the market to the employer.To me a fair wage is $11 a hour, a decent wage is $32 a hour. And since you claim to be in business for yourself, wages doesnt matter. You have the capable to earn what ever the market will bear by turning out more work. If you can produce the work then you can earn $100 a hour, like the doctors, lawyers, engineers which own their business. And since there is a demand for their sevices, the bearing of the market is higher.. 2+3=7
Brownbag Wrote:
a fair wage is what the market will bear from the employer point of view. what the work is worth in the market to the employer.<!----><!----><!---->
Brownbag,<!----><!---->
Well brownbag that’s what I was saying in one of my post we can not even agree on the definition of what a fair wage is let alone agree as to how to arrive at one.
You continue to kook at only one of the principals involved financially in the fair wage debate. (The employer.)
Sure as an employer I would like to only offer a dysfunctional living wage to my staff. In effect all I am doing is funding my client’s projects through the difference in what I pay and what would be fair. This is defiantly the easy road.
Some good reading is a book called “Quality in the construction project†in the first chapter it establishes the principals of a construction project and their responsibilities associated with the projects task. Under the owner’s responsibilities there is a list, in that list it states the owner shall pay for the project. No where does it suggest that the participants involved in the construction of the project shall offer a financial contribution to the owner’s project through a salary that is living wage dysfunctional.<!----><!---->
If you were to analyze the needs of the all three principals who have a financial stake in the equation 1) The employer 2) the employee and 3) the market in which the services are being sold. Then and only then I feel the Fairness might be more fitting with the market.
I agree with you about what the market will support issue. However, as I posted earlier. If the market will support only paying ½ the necessary hourly funds to a high level skilled tradesman required to live. Then I would expect that to affect the cost for goods and services in that same market.
A good example: As a general contractor; in my market in which the tradesperson are paid a fair and decent living salary I need a (12%) margin on my new home projects to make a fair wage myself and cover overhead. In your market with wages being let’s say ½ of mine the contractor in theory needs only a (6%) margin. If that is the case then I think the math does work and I would be in full agreement with you.
Respectfully,
Tom
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/11/2005 11:18 am ET by TomMaynard
A good example: As a general contractor; in my market in which the tradesperson are paid a fair and decent living salary I need a (12%) margin on my new home projects to make a fair wage myself and cover overhead. In your market with wages being let’s say ½ of mine the contractor in theory needs only a (6%) margin. If that is the case then I think the math does work and I would be in full agreement with you.you finally get it. Location, location, location. Different markets has different values.If a trademan cannot make a living in one market then he either A) move to another market B) make himself more valuable C) do more work.. 2+3=7
Great we agree!
<!----><!----> <!---->
Having said that then it is fair to assume that consumers buying new homes in your market should expect to pay no more than a (6%) gross profit margin to the builders. As this is all the margin your market will support.
<!----> <!---->
Respectfully submitted,
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
new homes in your market should expect to pay no more than a (6%) gross profit margin The percent gross profit margins, does not change bewteen markets. The saving is with land price, labor price, supplie, electrical, rain days.etc.If you have to have 12 % profit up north, there is no reason not to have 12% profit down south but your finish product is cheaper because of factor due to location are cheaper. If bread is $3 a loaf of north but only a dollar down south then the cost of living is cheaper. If cost of living is cheaper then there is no reason to pay high wages. Labor rate is reflected by the location of the market. If alot of illegal labor flood the job market in ine area then labor rate will go down. If the establish trade cannot compete with that labor then they must improve their skill, move to another area, or suck it up. You keep talking about labor rate in the twenty and thirty where you at. Here less than 1% is making over 18 dollars a hour. But they have the same skills as you. The market will not support a high labor.. 2+3=7
Brownbag wrote:
The percent gross profit margins, does not change bewteen markets. The saving is with land price, labor price, supplie, electrical, rain days.etc.
If you have to have 12 % profit up north, there is no reason not to have 12% profit down south but your finish product is cheaper because of factor due to location are cheaper. If bread is $3 a loaf of north but only a dollar down south then the cost of living is cheaper. If cost of living is cheaper then there is no reason to pay high wages. Labor rate is reflected by the location of the market. If alot of illegal labor flood the job market in ine area then labor rate will go down. If the establish trade cannot compete with that labor then they must improve their skill, move to another area, or suck it up. You keep talking about labor rate in the twenty and thirty where you at. Here less than 1% is making over 18 dollars a hour. But they have the same skills as you. The market will not support a high labor.
Brownbag,
<!----><!----> <!---->
You know, I am really at a lost for words
<!----> <!---->
Good night,
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
I just found this, maybe it help my point.http://money.cnn.com/2005/12/14/real_estate/buying_selling/least_affordable_rental_markets/index.htm?cnn=yes. 2+3=7
Brownbag,
<!----><!----> <!---->
I have not had time to read through the link you posted. I will at some time.
<!----> <!---->
I think “Sam T†has written an appropriate conclusion (to date) on this subject.
<!---->
"Sam T" Wrote:
One of the things it has made me realize is that there is no way to set a standard "fair wage", simply because the definition of fair is really the congruence of what the market (in this case, the GCs' client base) will pay, what the GC needs to earn, and what the employee will accept.
This means that in the same geographical areas, "Fair wage" starts at what the sleazy tract home GC pays his Illegal Immigrants to what Sonny Lycos pays himself, ie: $5 under the table to $65 take home. OTH, the fair wage of B.E.D. is well above $1000.00/hr!?!?!?!
From the example above we can arbitrarily and for the sake of argument state that in at least one area a "fair" wage runs from $5.35 to $65 an hour, which is an order of magnitude! I'm ignoring Blue (|;>)
In all cases fair is determined 1 on 1 by the employer who is actually a middleman and the prospective employee at the time of hire. It will change after they have had time to truely evaluate the skills of the one and the work environment of the other.
It is a self correcting situation in that too low a wage will bring too low a skill set for the GC to stay in business just as too high a wage will prevent the GC from selling enough to survive.
If the GC can't survive the wages are not fair. Ipso facto and other foreign words.
What all this means to me is that we can not define a fair wage, we must discover it, and when we do set out to discover it we must all, individually and in every circumstance, rediscover it all over again.
Are the Big Three paying a fair wage?
Apparently not as they seem to be failing.
Is Joe Chevette Roofing? No, he's failing too.
A fair wage is a congruence of (three sets) of needs, (the market), (the employer) and (the employee).
There is no fair wage in the buggy whip industry.
<!---->
Respectfully,
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/16/2005 9:45 pm ET by TomMaynard
Edited 12/16/2005 9:50 pm ET by TomMaynard
Edited 12/16/2005 9:55 pm ET by TomMaynard
Brownbag wrote:
<!----><!----> <!---->
“If a trademan cannot make a living in one market then he either A) move to another market B) “make himself more valuable†C) do more workâ€<!----><!---->
Brownbag,<!----><!---->
In regards to your line (B) How much value to you place on the skilled participants building a home? It seems to me if one was to remove this element in the home building process I believe you have no home.
That’s like saying the “value†of the motor in an automobile has little or no importance
<!----> <!---->
Tom<!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Tom,You've written a lot of words in a lot of threads recently, and they all seem to try to say the same thing. I appreciate that your interested in making sure your men earn a "fair wage". That is a good thing. A company must not just consider shareholder profits if they desire to be successful.The question I have for you is why are YOU so concerned about what wage is fair? Shouldn't you let the employee make that distinction?I know you're not in the middle of NYC or some other major population center but don't you think that if your guys didn't think your wage was "fair" that they would seek employment elsewhere? They have the opportunity to work for your competition or move somewhere else or work in another industry that may be more "fair".There are a lot of jobs that don't pay the amount of money that your worksheet says you need to live. Is that really a problem? Some people have jobs that pay little and some pay a lot. If the individual in question wants more they can always move up the chain by either aquiring new skills, moving to an area of greater demand, learning how to sell themselves better, etc.My view as an employer is that if I'm offering a fair wage that I will attract qualified & dependable workers, if not I will attract no one or those that are undesirable. No one is being forced to work for me.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon wrote:<!----><!----><!---->
The question I have for you is why are YOU so concerned about what wage is fair? Shouldn't you let the employee make that distinction?<!----><!---->
Jon, you are right I often ask my guys what their assessment of a fair wage is. I I have broken it down into these basic categories. <!----><!---->
Base salary<!----><!---->
Paid time off <!----><!---->
Health & dental care<!----><!---->
Retirement funding<!----><!---->
Transportation incentives<!----><!---->
And finally Tool use allowances<!----><!---->
I will honestly say their responses have always been reasonably conservative<!----><!---->
Jon wrote:<!----><!---->
There are a lot of jobs that don't pay the amount of money that your worksheet says you need to live.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I agree with you. I realize if you are flipping burgers down at Barneys pub you may never achieve the revenue to support the living expenses on my worksheet.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
However, it seems reasonable to me that educated & skilled positions in the service sector could expect to make such an amount of ($$) <!----><!---->
For example: <!----><!---->
Registered <!----><!----><!---->Nurses<!----> <!---->School<!----><!----> teacher’s attorneys, Doctors Auto mechanics (Journeyman) Plumbers - Painters, Carpenters, Masons and so on.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Many have already pointed it out to me on this thread that most tradespersons cannot achieve this level of skill in less than 10 years.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Respectfully,<!----><!---->
Tom <!----><!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Tom,
I fully agree with you as to the value of this discussion, it's great. Have you seen Jerrald Hayes' PILAO worksheet?
One of the things it has made me realize is that there is no way to set a standard "fair wage", simply because the definition of fair is really the congruence of what the market (in this case, the GCs' client base) will pay, what the GC needs to earn, and what the employee will accept.
This means that in the same geographical areas, "Fair wage" starts at what the sleazy tract home GC pays his Illegal Immigrants to what Sonny Lycos pays himself, ie: $5 under the table to $65 take home. OTH, the fair wage of B.E.D. is well above $1000.00/hr!?!?!?!
From the example above we can arbitrarily and for the sake of argument state that in at least one area a "fair" wage runs from $5.35 to $65 an hour, which is an order of magnitude! I'm ignoring Blue (|;>)
In all cases fair is determined 1 on 1 by the employer who is actually a middleman and the prospective employee at the time of hire. It will change after they have had time to truely evaluate the skills of the one and the work environment of the other.
It is a self correcting situation in that too low a wage will bring too low a skill set for the GC to stay in business just as too high a wage will prevent the GC from selling enough to survive.
If the GC can't survive the wages are not fair. Ipso facto and other foreign words.
What all this means to me is that we can not define a fair wage, we must discover it, and when we do set out to discover it we must all, individually and in every circumstance, rediscover it all over again.
Are the Big Three paying a fair wage? Apparently not as they seem to be failing.
Is Joe Chevette Roofing? No, he's failing too.
A fair wage is a congruence of three sets of needs, the market, the employer and the employee. There is no fair wage in the buggy whip industry.
SamT
SamT great Post!
Amen!
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
(Ipso facto) Law back ground? Or did you have some foreign exchange students at your house?Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Jon wrote:
My view as an employer is that if I'm offering a fair wage that I will attract qualified & dependable workers, if not I will attract no one or those that are undesirable. No one is being forced to work for me.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Jon, <!----><!---->
I could not agree with you more I often here employers say the treat their key people right. Well all of my people and subs are “keyâ€. Remove any sector of this and I have no business. <!----><!---->
I also have little patients for mediocre performance and standards. Given those expectations I try to be in the top 5% of my market with salary contributions. <!----><!---->
My personal salary is no more than my top production staff salaries. Basically I could easily replace myself tomorrow with an individual that could perform my employment responsibilities for the same money I pay the top product staff. That’s all my market will support <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
6 years experience is not worth anymore than the guy with 1 1/2 years experince---in fact probably less.
Stephen, that's almost always been my opinion. Rarely do I find a guy with 6 years experience that is worth what he asks. Oops, let me rephrase: I never have found a guy that has 6 years and is worth what he asks. If I did, he'd still be with me.
6 years is a dangerous time in a career. You think you know it all and then get very demanding.
blue
Friday's Wall Street Journal has in its Weekend section real estate page, a report showing this year's "average starter home cost" in cities all across the country.
They define a starter home as one that is being purchased by young upwardly mobile professionals as a first time purchase. That doesn't mean the house is their first residence, just their first detached single family home.
As expected, the prices go from way up there in places close to NYC and LA, and are considerably lower in places you would expect them to be.
The NYC and LA areas had figures over twice as high as those in Raleigh and Atlanta.
If they had included places like the far southern exurbs of Knoxville, or Fayetteville, or Keokuk, Green Bay, etc., etc., they would have some figures even lower.
Those costs surely must relate to what fair wages are in those areas.
As for carpenters, I think one great index of what the "fair wage" is for a given area is the per-square-foot figure charged by framing contractors for "typical starter home" new construction. I know that many on this forum will decry PSF pricing, but many framing contractors do it that way, and I think those figures correlate well to the "fair wage" paid to carpenters.
I would venture to say that the cost of clothing and consumer goods is about the same everywhere, give or take a little, as is the cost of food items like a Big Mac, a gallon of milk, and essentials of life like cigarettes and beer.
But as the WSJ reports, the cost of keeping a roof over your head can vary a lot by location, and that being such a large part of the fair wage distribution pie, is what makes the fair wage numbers so regional.
"a gallon of milk, and essentials of life like cigarettes and beer."Actually I think that you will find a large variation on the prices of those. Due to both taxes and state price controls, which someplace sets a mininum amount and others a maxinum price.State and local taxes (income, sales, and property) also vary a lot.
Edited 12/11/2005 12:55 pm by BillHartmann
Ok dude, I don't want to argue with you or anything, but.....
I lived in Temple Tx. not that far from Crawford, and 10 years ago 13-15 was the average for carps. some made a few bucks more, some made a few bucks less. But if you were only making 8 you pretty much were relegated to jobs that involved holding a shovel or a broom, seldom a hammer or a blueprint.
I cannot imagine it has come down any in the last decade.
" If I were a carpenter"
Anyone have numbers for the Bay Area? I need to hire and I'm hearing suggestions that $12-$15 is fair for starting wages - what I'm wondering is how skilled that person is expected to be. The guys I've hired need supervision which is dragging on me. I'm wondering if I could do better at this same pay rate or do I need to step it up.
Day laborers in the Bay Area are making $10-12 for digging and holding things. Don't know what they're getting for anything that requires some skills.
I'm a small gen contractor in N CA. I pay $20 for guys that need a little guidance. $25 for guys I depend on. $40 - $50 for stuff I need done correctly, and need nothing but answers to "how do you want me to handle this" questions. I do some hourly work myself. I charge $40 for most every type of work. I have 20 years of experience.
The facts from my experience:
Up in northern Virginia, I made $20/hr as a regular carpenter who led once in a while for remodels. I was almost always unsupervised and could be relied upon. My boss billed me out at two to three times that depending upon the work I did. For side work I always charged around $40 but these were usually small jobs. Houses there start at $400K for a 3 BR 2 BA.
Down in the Charlottesville, VA area where I am now, I'm lucky to make $12/hr. Side work, I charge $30, which seems to be an unquestioned rate. Houses here start at $180K for a 3 BR 2 BA.
Couldn't afford a house up there, but can down here.
The point comes in every carpenter's career where he/she must ask: do I continue to work for $15/hr for a boss or do I own my own and make twice that? The problem is you don't see from the wage side is that you're not going to be able to keep that $30/hr because you've got fixed and variable costs that will eat it up.
Successful contractors are good businesspeople first and find ways to cut those costs while increasing their revenue. Those of who would rather do the work than do the business must accept the wage and find creative ways to make additional money (stripping perhaps?).
Tim
Taproot,
I just sent you an e-mail through breaktime. If you dont get it e-mail me at:
[email protected] and Ill try resending it.
-m2akita
Live by the sword, die by the sword....but choose your sword wisely.
I'm real glad I live and work in ct. tons of work and almost name your $. unreliable help $15/hr, by the day $200.00-300.00 quality guy.
I live in a town of 25000 the next biggest town is Sioux falls SD or Fargo ND both of which are 125 miles away small town small wages?
Blues is tryin to tell ya somthin but he stopped.
In Little Rock , {our capital }prices are pretty high compared to here in a town of 8500. But who wants to live and drive in Little Rock? Crime is high and traffic is slow. However they pay their workers a little better .
How big is Temple Tx?
Tim
As you obviously know, used cars are big business in the South and Midwest. Without fail, I get a letter from Ford every 6 months or so offering to buy back my truck and trying to entice me into a new one. If you look around used car lots up here near Boston, you won't see a car or truck older than 8 years or so unless you hit the Want-Ad for a private sale. The guys from down south and out west come to our wholesale car auctions and buy up the used stock by the truckload to ship it away.
Up here in the NE... we are the definition of "consumers". And that's not a compliment.
Last time I was in florida I took a walk around a dealership to see what they were getting for new trucks. I was amazed you could easily save 20% over the best deal in new england.
With the late news of GM putting 30,000 out of work, people are asking , "what about Ford?"
Looks like by your testimony, they are following GMs suit of offering huge incentives .
DWs boss also owns a GM dealership.
Actually there is more need for your late model truck than there is call for the new one they want to sell you . As you say the market is out there searching for that truck.
I spent some time reading this morning and as one spokesman for GM said , the 3.50 per gallon gas deal was the last straw. The Japanese dealerships saw gains with getting all those late model American trade ins and selling off new rigs less incentives. They couldnt compete for sure then.
Meanwhile Toyota has opened a new plant here which the starting scale is 12 dollars per hour according to local reports. GM will be closing the 24 dollar per hour jobs but they arent "putting it " that way.
Meanwhile , we watch Ford. Are they smart enough to avoid it all and become king?
Tim
Today I heard on the radio that the UAW is going to make it very hard on GM's 2007 contract negotiations. to me this is a no brainer offer excellent benefits to much lower pay and tell the Unions to get bent.
I think there is going to be a point at which American auto makers are going to be more competitive and that will spell disaster for the unions.
Personally I think we are better off without them.
Who is 'we'? Are you an auto worker?
You blame the Unions . We have people in this country, and other countries fighting for better wages and working conditions in other countries . Now Mr Bush and others like him have created an oppertunity for Big Buisness to take there plants and move them to these countries . These people will make a couple of bucks an hour . Big buisness will make a fortune . And people who think like you will continue to sell americans down the road . Go Union .
Mike - Foxboro
I can hire someone to build me a house at those wages in nearly any trade. Journey plumber I know makes 10 dolars per hour and plumbs one house after the other all day every day. I cant hire his boss for that , but that isnt what the thread is about .
I think the average house here is 50,000 and you are right on about cars. Most all of us buy and drive used trucks and cars. Ive mentioned in a couple of different threads that used vehicles are big business here. My town truck is a 96 model. My current work truck is a 92 model.
Tim
50 K for a house? Shoot, in my area modest houses are in the 400 K range
They have a saying in the northeast that goes something like "you can afford to move south easy enough but you'll never afford to move back"
Well, I dont know . It will be interresting to see what happens when the rest of GM shuts down. Of course that may not happen but its started.
Tim
The carpenter uses more tools than any of the other trades . In most cases around the country the employer also wants the carpenter to provide all his own power tools . The system wants us to build schools, hospitals,high risers etc. We risk our lives at work just like the police, and firemen . - They make 30 to 40 an hour . The plumber and hvac men make even more . But the carpenter who basicly builds the structure for the other trades to work in get paid a much lower wage . Go figure . But as long as people keep this mentality of 8 to 12 dollars an hour . They will find some slob to do the work . And this same poor individual will work for this money with no health care , no retirement , no 401K . No anything . And when this poor individual falls or gets killed on the job , I'm sure his employer will step up to the plate and explain to his family what happened and will financialy take care of his family . Yea right . If you work for a guy who is going to pay you 12 dollars an hour , he doesn't give two ####'# about you or your family . And believe me , I'm sure the saftey conditions around the site don't exist as well .
Mike - Foxboro
just playing devils advocate here Mike,
but---if the worker is willing to work for $8-12/ hour----maybe HE doesn't care all that much for his family?
Why should the employer be expected to care more for the employees family than the worker cares?????
Stephen
You may be right . But I believe he has to work for that price because that's all they will pay at that location or area . He has no choice but to take the work . But I'm sure the employer is charging the owner three times the amount for the same mans back & brain .
Mike - Foxboro
Are you union Milke?
Tim
Yes , I am Union .
Mike - Foxboro
Mike,First you say that Plumbers and HVAC men earn more than $30-40 per hour.Then you mention that the employers of the carpenters "make" twice what they pay the carpenter.Have you ever been in the position of running a business? Do you understand the true costs of operating a legitimate business?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
This chart shows what 10 hours of labor costs me per 10hours worked. I probably have missed some things but it is close.
Pay Rate
Overtime
Cash
Reg
OT
Total
1.50%
2.00/hr
2.50/hr Lia.
3%
7.65%
Total Wages
Pay Rate
Comm.
Hours
Earnings
Unemployment
Administrative
Workers
Retirement
Fica Match
Billable
Insurance
Compensation
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
0.00
$16.00
$22.88
10.0
160.00
2.40
20.00
25.00
4.80
12.24
224.44
$15.50
$22.13
10.0
155.00
2.33
20.00
25.00
4.65
11.86
218.83
$10.25
$15.38
10.0
102.50
1.54
20.00
25.00
3.08
7.84
159.95
$12.00
$18.00
10.0
120.00
1.80
20.00
25.00
3.60
9.18
179.58
$16.00
$22.88
10.0
160.00
2.40
20.00
25.00
4.80
12.24
224.44
$10.00
$15.00
10.0
100.00
1.50
20.00
25.00
3.00
7.65
157.15
$9.00
$13.50
10.0
90.00
1.35
20.00
25.00
2.70
6.89
145.94
$13.00
$19.50
10.0
130.00
1.95
20.00
25.00
3.90
9.95
190.80
$9.50
$14.25
10.0
95.00
1.43
20.00
25.00
2.85
7.27
151.54
$7.50
$11.25
10.0
75.00
1.13
20.00
25.00
2.25
5.74
129.11
$9.00
$13.50
10.0
90.00
1.35
20.00
25.00
2.70
6.89
145.94
$0.00
110
0
1,277.50
19.16
220.00
275.00
38.33
97.73
1,927.72
Edited 11/23/2005 10:01 am ET by blueshound
Yes , I do . And I also understand the other forms of stealing !
"Do you understand the true costs of operating a legitimate business?""Yes , I do . And I also understand the other forms of stealing !"So you are saying that operating a ligit business based on the cost of running a business is STEALING?
No , your saying that . You know what your proffits are . You don't want to part with any to help the people that work for you , fine . You don't want to try and make your buisness save money and run smoother great . But I'm going to keep trying to do better for my company and my workers . You justify your issues any way you want . I'm sleeping just fine at night .
Mike - Foxboro
Hey I am not justiffying ANYTHING.I just repeated what you wrote."Do you understand the true costs of operating a legitimate business?""Yes , I do . And I also understand the other forms of stealing !"Maybe you should try to justify what you wrote.
Bill , good luck with your company . And have a great weekend .
Mike - Foxboro
"Super",So you think business owners are stealing? That's just ludicrous.Blame business all you want, but guess who puts food on your table? The company you work for. When you agree to work for a given wage and other benefits and the employer pays you that compensation how can that be stealing?The bottom line is, if you're so much better than the greedy capitalists, why don't you show us up? Go ahead and start your own company. Pay your guys 100% of their billing rate and enjoy your clean conscience. Why don't you prove to us that it can be done?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon ,
The company doesn't put food on the table , the hard working men and women who work for the company do that . No one , but yourself , said to pay out at 100% to the worker . By the way you write it sounds to me like you are trying to justify the way you pay your people and bill your clients . And what's this show us #### . What do you need backup . You cant speak for yourself . Hey look I'm not jumping on anyone , but things are getting bad out there for the working people . Buisness is leaving our country at an alarming rate . You don't make adjustments by screwing the people who do the work for you . The subject is fair wage . Costs for food ,fuel, heat , electricity , taxes just about everything is going up . Don't try and tell me you can't do your own figuring on how to cut back in the office area , or on how you purchase , or how you buy . I'm doing it NOW . I put in more hours and I have workers that are working with me on ways to cut back and save money so that I can keep things better for the company and my help . So don't #### down my back and tell me it's raining . Do the best you can for your company and your workers . Show us how 'please' .
Mike - Foxboro
>>>>"The subject is fair wage"Who determines fair? If you're a lead carpenter and all the other lead carpenters in your area are working for $14/hr. is that wage unfair? Would you say that anything below $18/hr. is unfair?In http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=66141.39 you said, as I understand it, that making a profit off of your employees is a form of stealing. So please tell me what profit margin is ethical?>>>>"And what's this show us #### . What do you need backup . You cant speak for yourself."The way I see it, if an employee thinks his employer is making a pile of money off of him why doesn't he become the competition. Our industry has few barriers to entry, so he should have no problem taking business away from a bad employer.The bottom line is, while it's true that some employers do exploit their workers, I think the risks that most business owners take are in line with their reward. If a fair wage is not available to a carpenter, factory worker, or computer programmer, they either need to move to a place where the market is stronger or change their skills to something that is in demand.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon ,
You should make a proffit off your employees.
I'm glad that you can addmit that some companys do exploit there workers .
It's to bad that most employers don't step up to the plate for their employees when times get difficult .
Nice talking with you . Have a great weekend .
Mike - Foxboro , Ma
Hi Mike,
Sounds to me like you have the entrepeneurial bug... good for you.
Many employees are shocked to see what the "company" makes off of them. That is a shapshot of part of the whole picture. If you could see the whole picture you wouldn't be so upset. Once you attribute a value for the following list of variables then subtract it from the margin you perceive as unjust--you will have the real picture of how much they make off your inflated labour charged the client.
Borrowing Costs (money borrowed to pay you before the job is complete)
Return on Investment (Money the owners of the company have put down which could be working for them in other investments which has to be re-paid)
Marketing, Overhead (insurance, licensing, cost of buildings, office equipment-software staff)
Management--those who create the business plans and accounting forecasts just to enable them to borrow money for future business, solve problems with clients and employees
Sales Staff
Accountants
Taxes
Workers Comp
Health Tax
Corporate Tax
Large companies are going to look like the picture above. Smaller companies will all have different scenarios that look very different--but to be successful they will eventually have to look similar.
Keep in mind that the day that they don't make profit--is the day you are unemployed.
Now, when you go into business the first thing you have to understand is that --"Profit is necessary for the company to Exist"
Net Profit is what is left over to invest in the company after all other expenses are paid in cash.
Gross profit is the markup on all goods and services sold.
Profit is not unethical. Profit is not stealing. This mindset of profit being wrong and unethical is a tool used by the "Haves" to keep the "Have-Nots" poor and seated firmly in their seats.
It keeps the business failure rate artificially high... and trustees in bankruptcy in business.
Next Lesson- Marketing (why word of mouth advertising only works in good times)
Best of luck,
Lawrence
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Finally , a good answer .
Mike - Foxboro
YW Mike.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
"Go ahead and start your own company................. Why don't you prove to us that it can be done?"
Jon,
There is this thing in economics called a transaction cost. Costs a ton of $ to move jobs, housing, etc. Employer's have been known to take advantage of this fact. Only when giving "notice" do they often offer to pay your true value to you. Seen it all too many times myself.
Jon
Very good , very good , nicely put .
Mike - Foxboro
Jon,Don't we live in a free market? I agree that the scenario you presented happens often.Isn't the burden on the employee to keep tabs with the market to see if he is being undercompensated?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Isn't the burden on the employee to keep tabs with the market to see if he is being undercompensated?"
Jon,
That's why we don't have labor unions in this Country, LOL.
Some employers will screw every ounce out of an employee. They live in a Mc Mansions, the employees in the hood. BTW, I'm a registered Republican.............with an open mind.
JB
Mike,
you said something like " he has no choice"
That is not correct.
the worker almost always has a choice------he can MOVE to a place where his current skill set is in demand and better paid
or he can up-grade his skill set to the point that it is more lucrative in his current locale.
ALL of us face the same economic laws----supply and demand etc.
some folks recognize that---and make adjustments
others prefer to complain about $ 8-12 pay rates( I am not directing that at you---please don't mis-understand)
Frankly---my set of trade skills is probably one of the most modest ones here on breaktime----but I make many, many times that $8-12 rate----because I up-graded my skill set to include OTHER things---like management skills, sales skills, marketing, proper application of minimal capital reserves etc. If I hired on somewhere for wages--- I doubt I would recieve more than $8-12/hour either---------- but---I decided my family deserves more than that---and I adjusted.
If I can do it--- ANYBODY can.---At least any of the carpenters here whose trade skils eclipse my own.
Best wishes all, Stephen
Some people can not just up and move , as much as they would like . Employers know this and take advantage of this .
Mike - Foxboro
" some people can't just up and move"
I don't buy that idea Mike
ALL of us got to this country----because our ancestors "up and moved"
I got to this specific city----because my grandparents " up and moved"---in search of better economic opportunities at the beginning of the 20th century.
I am trying to provide my children with high quality educations and portable skill sets so that THEY can move to better opportunities if need be.
AND every daylegal and illegal immigrants STILL flock to this country looking for better economic opportunities.
It's not that " some people can't"----------- but more probable that " some people just won't".
BTW----some jobs---and some workers just aren't WORTH more than $8-12/hour---if THAT much.
It's not always the employers fault.
Stephen
That's right our ancesters up and moved why ? Did they have a job ? NO . Were there any jobs ? NO. Was there oppression ? Yes . Was there starvation ? Yes . Was there other governments making there lives unbearable . Yes . All these things existed when my family came here . And at the time the American Govt , was advertising all over Europe for people to come here and find work and get land . FREE . But here is a reality check for you . Not all things are that cut and dry . Although in your mind I believe you think they are . And with this you will justify these things . It is my belief that creating oppertunity , or bettering ones life will create a better way of life for the individual that is struggling . As I said some people for whatever reason can't just up and move . Helping ones fellow man I can see is not in your way . And your answer would be . WHY SHOULD I .
Mike - Foxboro
mike,
you are WAY off base---and in fact I think you owe me an apology. I don't expect you to be have enough integrity to come up with one 'though.
Not to toot my own horn----------
but If you take a look at basically ANY post I have made here in 8-9 years
the ONE thing I do try---is to help out my fellow man to the best of my limmited abilities
Give the customer the best product I can---even if it is to my economic disadvantage, try to help ANY employee develope to THEIR long term advantage---even if it's to my economic disadvantage, try to help other small artisan type contractors make a decent living.
Read my posts Mike---and see if you still think I try to exploit trapped workers---in fact I try to avoid having employees because I know I Can't provide the long term opportunities for them I would like to.
I do, however, think a guy " trapped " in a $8-12/hour situation----is primarily reponsible for his OWN situation
You can start with the current union thread
BTW--- I am probably one of the most pro-union guys here.
I will wait for your apology---but I won't hold my breath.
Best wishes, Stephen
so I could up and move to another part of the country, like california and make alot more money. but then the cost of living be higher and I wont be bringing anymore money home. I rather stay here with my $200 rent and my $30 electricall bill. I could live very well for $1000 a month.. 2+3=7
So pretty much what everyone is trying to get at is that a fair wage in your area is what supply and demand dictate. overabundance of workers wages stagnate and in times of high demand wages are artificially inflated. ????? I always pay my employees what they are worth if you show up when you want, take 12 smoke breaks a day and take an hour lunch your pay should reflect your worth. In my area of the country i know a Helluva lot of people working from 8 to 12 per hour. Most likely 50 - 70 % fall in to this catagory. That is what wages here are!
If I paid my help 20 - 22 per hour my labor rates would nearly double and I would be out of business in under a year because of the fly by nighters far hungrier than me willing to do the same job for 1/2 of what i would have to charge.
As you may remember brownbagg
I once mentioned that you are probably a fantastic employee----but that I wouldn't want to live next to you! LOL
However,
If you can live very well on $1000/month----than you aren't the kind of person who would be whining about being trapped in a $12/hour job!
you seem like the kind of a guy who would end up doing well WHEREVER you found yourself living
Perhaps Mike should move to your neck of the woods-----
Best wishes, Stephen
Yes,we can try to upgrade our skills, find work as lawyers or what ever... but isn't there a point at which tradesmen are hard to find because young people won't go into the trades because the pay is low relative to other professions? Why should I, as a well rounded tooled-up professional, be paid less than, say, a guy who does computer graphics? Or a secretary?
Yes, that point will come.And at that same moment, a few successful contractors who have more profitable work than competent employees will start offering more money."Why should I, as a well rounded tooled-up professional, be paid less than, say, a guy who does computer graphics? Or a secretary?"How much would you be willing to pay a skilled telegraph operator? Not much because they're not in demand (I'm guessing, I really don't know anything about the telegraph). If the market needs you, you will be compensated appropriately.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The carpenter uses more tools than any of the other trades . In most cases around the country the employer also wants the carpenter to provide all his own power tools . The system wants us to build schools, hospitals,high risers etc. We risk our lives at work just like the police, and firemen . - They make 30 to 40 an hour . The plumber and hvac men make even more . But the carpenter who basicly builds the structure for the other trades to work in get paid a much lower wage . Go figure . But as long as people keep this mentality of 8 to 12 dollars an hour . They will find some slob to do the work . And this same poor individual will work for this money with no health care , no retirement , no 401K . No anything . And when this poor individual falls or gets killed on the job , I'm sure his employer will step up to the plate and explain to his family what happened and will financialy take care of his family . Yea right . If you work for a guy who is going to pay you 12 dollars an hour , he doesn't give two ####'# about you or your family . And believe me , I'm sure the saftey conditions around the site don't exist as well .
Mike - Foxboro
Yeah youare right I will pay the guy 12 per hour but he is free to quit and go to work for the police force who starts you out at 9.00 in a patrol car but this guy won't get the job because of his past record underaged drinking DUI etc. He is also free to quit and go to work in a factory around here and start at 6.75 per hour but there is benefits. Then there is McDonalds no benefits starts at 6.50 per hour.
Where I live 12-16 is damn good money. Menards the box store in our town pays 7.50 plus time and a half for sundays. I would be pretty damn happy to make nearly twice the money even more it is slightly more dangerous. A couple working in a factory are still able to buy a house that might be in need of some TLC. I bet in your area Mike that two people making 13.50 to 16.00 would be scraping the bottom of the barrel in a hole in the wall apartment. A nice 2 bedroom apartment here runs 300 to 400 a month.
Here lies a bitter man .
I never agreed with the theory that just because one can find an apartment for $400 a month one should work for less money. I always hear the cost of living argument. So in areas where the rents are $400 and the houses are $100,000, one should expect to pay $1.50/gal for gas and a pack of smokes for $2? New cars would be $10K and a sit-down meal for 2 at Red Lobster would be $20. Prices for everything else are pretty much the same all over. So unless one's only expenses are for housing, I see even more disadvantage for working for low wages. Note that this does not apply to multiple workers/families occupying the same residence where the rent is divided amongst many where the percentage of income going towards housing would be much lower.
A fair wage is one agreed upon by both parties, much like a fair price. Someone wanting top dollar better be offering top preformance. If there is someone who can do the work you are doing better for less then they should be the one doing it from a consumers point of view.
I'm a geezer, 58 and long since retired but still do a house every year or two so I don't rust up. I have a real hard time finding both help and subs that are reliable and do good work, whatever the price.
Too many folks looking for a place on easy street. If you don't make enough money to afford yor lifestyle the either get a better income or adjust your lifestyle. Most folks today forget that money is earned through earning interest and not by paying it. Mortgage and car payments rule too many lives. In the 70's as a newlywed for 3 years I worked 2 jobs a saved 40k which was enough for a decent house in 73, my first new car was bought in 89 when I could write a check for it. Don't have a bassboat or a Harley but don't need to get out of bed any day I'm not in the mood, and live in a mortgage free new home.
When ever you drive by WalMart and see cars in the parking lot, you are looking at votes to continue to move more jobs overseas.
You are the one in control of your life and will only get out of it what you put in, sit on the curb and complain or get up and do something, a fair wage is there for all willing to WORK for it.
Mortgage and car payments rule too many lives
Pete,
Well Said, Nothing else to add..............other than................. don't try to keep up with the Jones'. Health, family, and contribution to society are most important..........IMO
WSJ
Well what a thread we have going here .
I dont take any problem with yur thinking but can add some light to it.
Somthing about not seeing the point in working for less moneysince most things cost the same approach.
I live in a low wage area and lots of people choose it for there are reasons.
Low crime rate , nearly zelch of serious offenses. Been several years since weve had a murder and shocked the area when it happened.
Kids kids kids, with ball parks everywhere and a very strong city backing plus industrial support of the same to hold their employees. What ever your kids wants to do there is city wide support and planned activites. A very family oriented area.
We have about a dozen concrete boat ramps in the county and I dont know how many gravel docks but a bunch.
Two state parks and thousands of acres of prime fishing.
I am usually home from work in 5 minutes. Most every one is home in 15.
Thousands of acres of national forrest thats there for everyone but hunting and hiking are the most used plus mountain rivers for cannoeing and trout fishing . We have class 5 rapids here.
A slower way of life .
Thats nuff said with out going on.
Tim
what alot of people dont reliase is. those area where the pay is only 8 or 9 dollars a hour, you can buy a three bedroom house under 75k. What alot of people are paying 400k in other areas only run 100k here and thats with 20 acres.2+3=7
You make some valid points, but it seems it would be that much harder to survive with kids' mouths to feed. I don't get the relation between lower wages and better quality of life: low crime, open land etc. Most areas with high crime also have high unemployment rates as people are in need of relief and are more apt to do things they normally wouldn't if they could make a living wage.
lower wages and better quality of life: low crime, open land etc. when you live in a rural area, there is always a way to make money. It might be under the table, but always a way. loggin, farming.working for somebody else. and if you get hungry without money, there is alway hunting , fishing, farm produce. There is no reason to stand on a corner to cause trouble. small town, everybody knows everybody business, you cannot hide crime.2+3=7
The unemployment rate is the same state wide give or take a small percentage.
But, that is different too.
You have a different type of bum in the city . In fact there are several different types of bums that live in the city that could not survive in a small town.
Any time you crowd people together in a large gathering with out giving them space theres going to be trouble . It happens here in the bar on Friday evening .
You can raise a kid for free if you dont have the money to properly do it . All you have to do is ask. Its harder getting people to ask than it is to recieve help. Peoples hearts go out to kids . Always have and will.
Dealing with unemployment of 6 pecent , there is very little unemployment. Really , truely cant find a job. Thats bull. People draw unemployment on purpose so that clouds the figgures. We have people who live her because its cheap. People who work on the road live here for instance . There are union carps that draw unemployment in the winter and many more situations like that. All union painters take layoffs for winter, but the pay never stops. If the guy wanted to work , theres work. But drawing unemployment is a perk in the winter since we are a warm weather state.
Tim
I think that it depends on what your skills are and how you market them. I am an electrician and I currently make mid twenties/hr plus a truck allowance working as a foreman on a two million dollar project in a major city. I charge twenty bucks an hoiur for side work but only do side work for close personal friends.
Would love to live somewhere like you talk about but I would probably only make $8-$12 an hour and can't feed my five children on that.
Chris
Would love to live somewhere like you talk about but I would probably only make $8-$12 an hour and can't feed my five children on that.But you can, thats the point, cost of living is cheaper, on everything.
Take gasoline for instance. Today its $2.28 in Mobile but only $2.16 in the county. Thats only four miles apart. Smaller town its all supply and demand. Since the population is less and wages are less, cost of living is less.2+3=7
Gas is $2.13/gallon here in central NJ today, and $12/hour won't rent you an apartment on a whole month's wages- yet alone feed a family of 4.
Bob
Non english speaking unskilled illegals start at 12 -14, some english and a toolbelt get around 18, mid level carpenters between 23 and 32, and journey level to lead with tools 33-50. This is Marin county in SF bay area CA.
Kye
Yeah, AND you've got Pt. Reyes and Mt. Tam.
Depends.
A master card draws 18 and change.
A journeyman card draws about 15.
I think a 4 year apprentice is close to 12 but Im not sure.
There was an electrician running work on a new mall and was the acting foreman I guess . He was drawing 12, but he was getting screwed. He was damn good and knew his sh^t. However I think he was a journeyman. he got all the fringes with a truck , gas card and expenses.
Tim
Tim
Just a little info Mike, FF's in MA (I'm assuming you live in Foxboro, MA) Make about 25 to 30K starting. That's working a 24 hr shift and then having 2 days off, so essetially you work 48 hrs a week, except for one week it's 72. Granted you do spend some of your night sleeping, but when you get home at 8 or 9 am after a shift, most usually go to bed due to being up all night chasing down endless medical calls and false alarms.
Cops get it even worse. Pay rate for a cop in MA ranges from 22 to 30K starting. The only way they make $$ is doing endless details and living a life with little to no sleep. Yes I know guys that make $35 an hr on details, but they spend 8 to 10 months out of the year working every day usually for at least 12 to 16 hrs a day.
Before you start bashing civil workers, you should understand the big picture, b/c it's not as static as you claim. Oh, and by the way, many cops and firefighters are also tradesmen because that is how they keep a roof over their families head at night.Jim W.Coventry Woodworking
I live in the Santa Cruz Mountains and do most of my work "over the hill" in San Jose and other towns in that area. I have over 30 years experience, and I was hiring on jobs with other contractors for $35 an hour before I got my own license. Now that I'm licensed, I do small jobs for homeowners, let them pay for materials, and charge $65 an hour.
I pay $1500 a month rent on a 3-bedroom house built as a summer vacation home in the 20s, but as someone else said, food, gas, restaurants, clothing, tools, etc, cost me the same as they do anyone else anywhere else, pretty much.
Someone has mentioned the rate charged by electricians, plumbers, etc. I just spent the past few days doing some work in a very cool old home built in 1929, and owned and lived in for 40 years by a celebrity whose name you would all immediately recognize. (That's one of the little fun benefits of our vocation). I did 32 hours work at my usual rate. I'm happy with what I made, and the homeowner should be happy with what she paid me, considering that she was paying $95 an hour for the electrician who was there the whole time I was.
I love old houses, and was very respectful of the house while I was there working. The electrician was preoccupied with some court stuff he has going on, and even took off early one day, because his lawyer called to tell him he was supposed to be in court that day. He is an unlicensed employee who didn't care at all about the house, or the job, exept to finish and get out of there.
I spent time with the homeowner, discussing different ways to do things. We put off doing something she was considering because we both think we need to research it a little more. She could see that I was interested in helping her make sure we did the right thing by the house and its legacy, as well as meeting her needs.
My point is, should I feel bad about charging her $65 an hour for some of the best service she'll ever get from anyone, when there is a dead head next to me that she's paying $95 for? That answer is easy for me.
My question is, why am I not charging $95 an hour?
I'm serious.
Allen in Santa Cruz
You are not asking $95/hour because you are afraid you won't get the work so you charge what you can live with knowing that you will most likely get the work. You know you are worth it, but the customer doesn't want to pay it. Maybe the electrician got lucky with this customer. It would be interesting to find out what % of the jobs he bids on he gets. But of course he could do half as many jobs as a guy charging $45/hour and make the same money. I find that it has a lot to do with luck and is sort of a numbers game. A lot of prospective clients are cheap or just shopping around. Some get all kinds of bids but never get the work done. Others may have gotten ten other estimates and were not comfortable for whatever reason. Some companies use high pressure salesmen and middle-men. Some are handymen that can under-cut everyone and the customer is okay with that. So basically charge whatever you feel is right and if you get the job everyone should be happy.
That's a great question moondancer. Why are you working 50% below the going rates for skilled workers?
You are a scab!
blue
Allen,
The main reason you aren't charging 95 an hour is just society's perception that carpenters should be paid less than other tradesmen. But where did that perception come from?
Back when I worked in S.F., there was a journeyman plumber (union) working on the project. I was lead man for the GC. He was being paid 78/hr. I was the highest paid carpenter (non union) at 13/hr. That plumber was making more than my entire crew combined...as-an-employee-with-benefits. I was horrified and just had to ask why??
His apprentice told me that back in the 1930's the union people got together and tried to figure out how much each trade should get paid. They decided that no man, essentially was better than another, and they should all get the same yearly income. At the time, plumbing was almost non-existent, electrical more common, and carpenters could find work year round. So the hourly rates were set such that each trade made the same yearly income by working the amount of hours that trade typically worked in a given year...
In my opinion, now that a plumber couldn't run out of work if he tried, carpenters and plumbers should get paid the same rate.
Now, you will hear the argument that trades which are not required to be licensed should not charge as much as those that are. Ergo, where I live now, in Maine, a general contractor (no licensing requirement) will often bill out at a much lower rate than his electrical and plumbing subs (who are required to be licensed). For example, a g.c. I worked for last year billed the clients $35 for my time (just on the edge of locally excessive) while the plumbing sub billed $42.
My father, years ago, was trying to figure out how much to charge... couldn't quite keep up with the auto mechanic's bills... I told him to charge exactly as much as the mechanic, and raise his rates when the mechanic did. They both have shop spaces to maintain, with similarly expensive equipment, so it seemed fair. It works for him.
Hope this explains a few things,
Gerard
Those things are all true, caribouman. When I first started my union apprenticeship, I asked why millwrights had to furnish all of their own tools, which can be very expensive. It was explained to me by some older guys that the reason was for job security. If a contractor only needed a millwright for a day or so, he was less likely to call one if he already had all the tools and had someone who could do a passable job on the work.So by supplying all of the tools, as well as the labor and expertise, they made it more likely that the contractor would call the union hall if he needed some millwright work done. It makes sense to me that the higher wages of electricians and plumbers would have a reason like the one given, outdated and archaic. ;) But I'm not complaining about it, and my original question was mostly tongue-in-cheek. I'm a licensed professional, and if clients don't mind paying $95 an hour for the work of a dead-head electrical employee, they might not mind paying me that much as well. Only one way to find out. ;)
Allen in Rainy Boulder Creek
To All:
Subject: Fair wage
I have seen a lot of theories on what constitutes a fair wage.
The best way I have seen to determine that came from an estimating seminar I attended many years ago. Having at that time had problems with my estimating I thought it wise to seek some help. At that time my projects revenues feel short of providing antiquate “fair†living salaries for my crew and myself.
At the start of the seminar the speaker commented that only 5% of construction companies in America today adequately fund “fair†living salaries, overhead and profit in the projects that the Estimate or bid.
In my market I would be surprised that number is that high.
The very first exercise we did was to develop a personal budget. Basically a worksheet based on “the cost of making a decent living.†Or let’s call it a “fair wage worksheetâ€
This worksheet essentially took the market cost for living expenses “monthly†based on one’s demographics.
After compiling these cost we then divided each expenses by the number of straight time hours one would work each month based on monthly average hours.
As employers it is remarkable how many of use apparently fail to be able to perform such a simple exercise as the one that follows.
Worksheet data:
*Master skilled trade’s individual (single with out dependants)
*There are 2080 hours of straight time hours a year.
* - vacation paid time off = 160 hours
* - Holidays paid time off = 64 hours
* - Personal & Sick paid time off = 40 hours
* = 1816 hours of work or 151.3 hours a month.
* Divisor of expenses = 151.3
No.
Personal Expense
Monthly Cost
@ 151.3 hrs
1
Mortgage PITI
$1,350.00
$8.92
2
Utilities
$225.00
$1.42
3
Vehicle payment Insurance Fuel & maintenance
$595.00
$3.73
4
Groceries & household supplies
$395.23
$2.61
5
Phone & TV services
$85.00
$.56
6
Work & casual clothing & Footwear
$41.52
$.28
7
Retirement Fund
$250.00
$1.65
8
Health – Dental Care
$550.00
$3.64
9
Basic trade tools
Personal carry as an employee
$151.00
$1.00
10
Hobbies & Recreation
$150.00
$.99
11
Dine out
$65.00
$.42
12
Debt other
$85.00
$.56
13
Pets
$42.00
$.28
14
Furniture Appliances
Etc.
$35.12
$.23
15
House Maint & repairs
$185.23
$1.22
16
Subscriptions & text
$24.12
$.16
17
Savings Account
$150.00
$1.00
18
Gifts tithing
$90.00
$.60
19
Other living expense
$150.00
$1.00
20
Taxes
$900.00
$5.96
21
Total
$5,519.22
$36.47
A fair wage based on the above budget would be $36.47
That of coarse includes benefits. (Of some $5.29)
Mater tradesman’s total hourly comp. = 100% = $36.47
Entry level labor = 60% = $21.88
Not many of us in business today would charge less than it cost us to be in business.
How many of us pay less than a fair wage?
To calculate a “fair wage†we need to apply some math.
How many of us do that?
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 12/4/2005 2:38 pm ET by TomMaynard
you sure do have some inflated numbers there.Here how it would be around here, remember its all location.mortgage $277 $1.85
utilities $75 $ 0.49
vehicle $595 $3.73
groceries $250 $1.65
phone $ 28 $0.19
clothes $41.52 $0.28
tools $151 $ 1.00 not every month some less, some more
retirement $250 $1.65
health paid by company
rest is out of pocket total to live $10.66
the vehicle is not a major debt due to truck paid for so that cut another $2.00, my highest utilities has been $28.00 electrical, $7.43 water. tools I give you, retirement is paid by side jobs, I mainly get all the overtime I want, your 151 hour week is 37 hours, my week is usally 60 hoursThing I notice your mortage is a $450,000 house. the average well built house here is 110k a 450k house is a true mcmanison.. 2+3=7
brownbagg,
<!----><!----> <!---->
If I am correct a 30year mortgage @ 6% for a $200,000.00 house would be around $1,199.10 a month for(PI). Add: insurance and taxes to that.= ($ )_<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
The $200,000.00 house might represent the cost of a home in which all of the trades’ personnel building it being paid a “FAIR WAGEâ€.
<!----> <!---->
You are correct about the benefits, if the employer pays health, dental and retirement then the hourly compensation could be less. A little less than $6.00 in my worksheet.
<!----> <!---->
In your worksheet did you inadvertently leave out items that I included in the budget I developed? Like: Hobbies- PERSONAL TAXES – Savings – Home Maintenance etc.
<!----> <!---->
While these expenses may be “out of pocket expenses†the fact remains the revenue for these expenses have to come from some where. From my perspective these expenses are paid though ones employment.
<!----> <!---->
The 60 hours a week it is funny you mentioned that, in the same seminar I attended on estimating that subject came up. The speaker commented if you can not do it in 40 you are doing something wrong.
<!----> <!---->
Respectfully Submitted,
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
my point I was trying to make.location,location,locationwhile someplaces need a $35 hour wages,
some can get by great on $12I think supply and demand will govern the wage scale and alot of people are living above their needs. and if this is their livestyle then more education or own business is needed.. 2+3=7
Brownbag,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sure I agree with you demographics play a roll in determining what constitutes a fair wage. I also belive some people live above their means.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Having said that. Many people in working in this industry are not being compensated with enough means to provide them with a decent and “FAIR†living. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
What person in his right mind would invest in the time and education that is necessary to become a master tradesperson, for the sorry compensation that is currently being offered by many employers? <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
As I review this personal living budget, I have to ask a question, what expenses are there that represent an excessive lifestyle Expense? <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sure you could give the dog away. Give up Fly fishing. Eat bread and water. However for the most part this represents a real monthly living budget for most parts of the country.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Respectfully submitted,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Worksheet data:<!----><!----><!----><!---->
*Master skilled trade’s individual (single with out dependants)<!----><!----><!----><!---->
*There are 2080 hours of straight time hours a year. <!----><!----><!----><!---->
* - vacation paid time off = 160 hours<!----><!----><!----><!---->
* - Holidays paid time off = 64 hours<!----><!----><!----><!---->
* - Personal & Sick paid time off = 40 hours<!----><!----><!----><!---->
* = 1816 hours of work or 151.3 hours a month.<!----><!----><!----><!---->
* Divisor of expenses = 151.3<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
No.<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Personal Expense<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Monthly Cost<!----><!----><!----><!---->
@ 151.3 hrs<!----><!----><!----><!---->
1<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Mortgage PITI<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$1,350.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$8.92<!----><!----><!----><!---->
2<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Utilities<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$225.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$1.42<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
3<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Vehicle payment Insurance Fuel & maintenance<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
$595.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
$3.73<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
4<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Groceries & household supplies<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
$395.23<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
$2.61<!----><!----><!----><!---->
5<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Phone/ TV Buy & services<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$85.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.56<!----><!----><!----><!---->
6<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Work & casual clothing & Footwear<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->$41.52<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!---->$.28<!----><!----><!----><!---->
7<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Retirement Fund<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$250.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$1.65<!----><!----><!----><!---->
8<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Health – Dental Care<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$550.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$3.64<!----><!----><!----><!---->
9<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Basic trade tools<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Personal carry as an employee<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
$151.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
$1.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
10<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Hobbies & Recreation<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$150.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.99<!----><!----><!----><!---->
11<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Dine out<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$65.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.42<!----><!----><!----><!---->
12<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Debt other<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$85.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.56<!----><!----><!----><!---->
13<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Pets<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$42.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.28<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->14<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Furniture Appliances<!----><!----> Etc.<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!---->$35.12<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!---->$.23<!----><!----><!----><!---->
15<!----><!----><!----><!---->
House Maint & repairs<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$185.23<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$1.22<!----><!----><!----><!---->
16<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Subscriptions & text<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$24.12<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.16<!----><!----><!----><!---->
17<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Savings Account<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$150.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$1.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
18<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Gifts & tithing<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$90.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$.60<!----><!----><!----><!---->
19<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Other living expense<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$150.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$1.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
20<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Taxes<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$900.00<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$5.96<!----><!----><!----><!---->
21<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Total <!----><!----><!----><!---->
$5,519.22<!----><!----><!----><!---->
$36.47<!----><!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
My question is why would any person choose to be an employee? I live in Arizona and our mechanics' and materialmen's lien laws and contractor licensing laws dictate how construction projects are to be done. The lien laws recognize that there are two necessities required for the construction of buildings and other structures - labor and materials. Pursuant to our lien laws, labor furnished by mechanics and materials furnished by materialmen shall be furnished either at the instance of the property owner or at the instance of the property owner's agent. It is stated that all contractors and subcontractors are agents of the property owner. Like other states, Arizona recognizes a difference between journeyman plumbers, journeyman electricians and other trade mechanics as opposed to master plumbers, master electricians and other trade contractors. Arizona has no law requiring licenses of those who are mechanics. Except in certain circumstances, all contractors must be licensed. Under Arizona law, any person who supervises construction must qualify for a contractors license. Suppose person A is a journeyman carpenter. Pursuant to the lien laws, he can enter into a contract directly with a property owner. One cannot have lien without there being a debt, and there can be no debt without there being a contract. Another thing that is clear from the lien laws is that when a property owner employs contractors and subcontractors to act as his agents. the mechanics are not the employees of such agents. So if a master carpenter is employed as a contractor by a property owner, the journeymen carpenters employed on the project are not his employees. Under Arizona law, the supervisor who qualifies for a contractor's license can be an employee who acts on behalf of his employer. However, all supervisors can choose not to be employees. The same holds true for journeymen. Only journeymen can make contracts to perform labor. If they choose to act on behalf of another as an employee, then they may do so. But why would any journeyman want to be an employee?
Edited 12/4/2005 8:38 pm ET by 5150
Robert Haugen, why are you still on this horse?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
5150,
Well I am confused as hell. I thought this post was on what constitutes a fair wage. <!----><!----><!---->
After reading your post I think it wise not to be employed or practice construction in the state of <!----><!----><!---->Arizona<!----><!---->.<!----><!---->
It appears to me that if you are in construction it is only for a short period of time pending your successful passing of the bar exam which I have no question it should be soon.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Best wishes,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Suppose person A is a journeyman carpenter. Pursuant to the lien laws, he can enter into a contract directly with a property owner.
Arizona has no law requiring licenses of those who are mechanics. Except in certain circumstances, all contractors must be licensed.
I'm confused.
Under Arizona law, any person who supervises construction must qualify for a contractors license... if a master carpenter is employed as a contractor by a property owner, the journeymen carpenters employed on the project are not his employees.
Now I'm really confused. Why is the Contractors, not the HO's, name on my paychecks?
Another thing that is clear from the lien laws is that when a property owner employs contractors and subcontractors to act as his agents.(sic) the mechanics are not the employees of such agents.
Say what?
The right to make contracts in your occupation is constitutionally protected(From here.)... Only journeymen can make contracts to perform labor.
I am sooooo confused.
I think you are right, Tom, he is practicing to be a lawyer.
BTW, isn't there a conflict between a constitutional right and a requirement of a license?
SamT
I'confused by 5150's Lien Law talk as well.
There also appear to be some conflicts with the laws and regs administered by the Registrar of Contractors.
According to the AZROC, a person whom presents as a "Journeyman" could ONLY do direct work for the homeowner IF that "Journeyman" works as a Handyman -- and is then restricted to doing work NOT TO EXCEED $750 for BOTH Labor & Materials.
The ROC is pretty clear (and adament) about the fact that NO ONE OTHER THAN A LICENSED CONTRACTOR may contract with a homeowner (or any other) to do work valued at more than the $750 cap on the Handyman.
So-o-o ... If that "Journeyman" wants to earn more than the limits on the Handyman, the "Journeyman" MUST be an employee of a Licenced Contractor. Or become licensed him/herself.
The ROC gets a lot of his clout re: the above from laws and regulations that define and limit the damages that can be recovered for shoddy work by the property owner/employer --- If a job is really botched by some incompetent "tradesman" whom is an unlicensed contractor that some unwitting poor schmuck hired, our poor schmuck victim/owner is (realistically) SOL on collecting damages.
And about all the AZROC will do to that unlicensed sob is maybe look for him IF the victim does all of the legwork to find the "dirty doer". (The Landlord of the Rental House next door to me found this out the Hard Way this past few months.)
So yeah, all that mumbo jumbo about the Lien Laws is confusing to me as well.
Oh, and BTW, Arizona really is a Right to Work State. However, in reality, that Constitutional "goody" is simply regarded as a provision that grants Employers the Right to Screw Workers as the Employer sees fit. The Right to Work laws certainly do not allow anyone (the right) to work as he/she sees fit -- as implied by 5150's note.
After a number of conversations with local AZROC Inspectors and Detectives over this past season, I'm even more confused than you and Tom! I'm looking forward to getting UNconfused :-)
Oh, if you're interested, here's the Link to the AZROC -- http://www.azroc.gov/index.shtml
-- Steve
Enjoy life & do well by it;
Edited 12/6/2005 2:14 am by Ribeye
Ribeye,
Nah, I've no interest in Arizona now. I left the El Centro area a few years ago, and if I ever go back, it will only be as a snowbird.
I was merely amused by the internal contradictions in his legalese.
SamT
See City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61. A Milwaukee ordinance required licenses of electrical contractors but not journeyman electricians. Objection was made to the fact that journeymen were not required to be licensed. The Supreme Court of Wisconsin stated that there were two classes (occupations) - contractors on the one hand, and journeymen on the other. The test as to the constitutionality of the ordinance was whether all those of the same occupation were treated alike. The fact that those who followed the occupation of journeyman electrician were exempt from licensing was irrelevant to the licensing of those who followed the occupation of electrical contractor.
Journeyman carpenters make contracts to perform labor. Materialmen furnish carpentry materials. Carpentry contractors make contracts to procure carpentry labor and carpentry materials from mechanics and materialmen. All licensing laws and mechanics' lien laws are based on this scenario. Simple, isn't it?
Employees make contracts to perform labor. Materialmen furnish carpentry materials. Carpentry contractors make contracts to procure [] labor and [] materials from employees and materialmen. All licensing laws and mechanics' lien laws are based on this scenario.
All employees working on a thing owned by someone else have the right to lien under mechanics lien laws, even the secretary in the office if her hours are billed to the job.
Yep, Simple.
SamT
Please define which type of employee you mean. The law in Arizona defines 2 types of employees - those who are involved in an independent trade or profession and those who are servants. Which type do you mean? For example, if I go to a dentist, he is my employee, however he is not my servant. Please explain to me the following provision of Arizona law. Our statutes say that if a building contractor has no employees, then he is not required to carry workmen's compensation. Our statutes also define contractor as an occupation. And it may be followed in one of two ways as an employee of a property owner - either as an independent trade or as a servant. Those who are independent need licenses. Those who are servants do not. Our licensing scheme requires every individual, firm or corporation to obtain a license and the actual contractor must qualify for the license. The actual contractor who qualifies for the license can be a "responsible managing employee". Section 32-1127 of the Arizona statutes. This means that a "licensed" contracting entity can have an employee act on behalf of his employer. Also, since those who perform labor as mechanics have a legal right to form partnerships and corporations just as doctors, lawyers and those engaged in other occupations do, then your definition of employee must include partnerships and corporations. And since these partnerships and corporations have a right to act as independent trades, then your definition of employee must mean as independent trades, not as servants. Involuntary servitude is prohibited by the !3th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. So my understanding of your statement is that a carpentry contractor procures carpentry labor from "employees" and such "employees" are either individuals, firms or corporations who furnish labor as independent entities.
Please explain to me the following provision of Arizona law.
You didn't give anything to explain, you only gave your own interpretations thereof.
Our statutes say that if a building contractor has no employees, then he is not required to carry workmen's compensation.
OK, that's fairly common.
Our statutes also define contractor as an occupation. And it may be followed in one of two ways as an employee of a property owner - either as an independent trade or as a servant. Those who are independent need licenses. Those who are servants do not.
I think you are saying that a servant is what would be considered an employee in other states, and independant tradesmen are what would be called contractors. That
Our licensing scheme requires every individual, firm or corporation to obtain a license and the actual contractor must qualify for the license.
I think you meant to say that every individual, firm or corporation acting as a contractor (other state def.) must be licensed.
The actual contractor who qualifies for the license can be a "responsible managing employee". Section 32-1127 of the Arizona statutes. This means that a "licensed" contracting entity can have an employee act on behalf of his employer.
This just means that the actual contractor does not have to be licensed, but, his business must have a licensed individual in a management position.
Also, since those who perform labor as mechanics have a legal right to form partnerships and corporations just as doctors, lawyers and those engaged in other occupations do, then your definition of employee must include partnerships and corporations.
Maybe by your definition, but in mine saying my partner is my employee is meaningless and a corp that worked for me would be a sub. When an individual who also performs labor as a mechanic forms a partnership with another entity or enters into a corporation, he is no longer acting as a labor mechanic. He has now entered into an area where he must be licensed, ie, his partnership or corporation is a contractor.
And since these partnerships and corporations have a right to act as independent trades, then your definition of employee must mean as independent trades, not as servants.
I suppose now you will want me to spend the rest of my life defending what you mistakenly think I said?
Involuntary servitude is prohibited by the !3th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Apropos of what? Oh yeah, that convoluted reasoning you applied to your understanding of your state laws that you attribute to me.
So my understanding of your statement is that a carpentry contractor procures carpentry labor from "employees" and such "employees" are either individuals, firms or corporations who furnish labor as independent entities.
a carpentry contractor procures carpentry labor from "employees" that part is right at least, but, any entity who furnishes anything as an independant entity is a contractor (other state def.) Are you aware of how many "words" you "put in my mouth?" If not, I will continue to talk with you.
Samt
Please believe me when I say I am not interested in pursuing an argument. This is only to debate a certain point. Arizona law defines a contractor to be a supervisor who manages construction. The contractor licensing statutes then state that the person who qualifies for the license must have 4 years' practical trade experience or management trade experience in order to qualify. A.R.S. section 32-1122, subsection F, paragraph 1. Thus the law itself defines two classes - practical trades and management trades. Thus a practical plumber need not be licensed while a plumbing contractor (defined as a supervisor) must be. The Registrar of Contractors in our state has no jurisdiction over those engaged in practical trades. Our lien laws state specifically that those engaged in practical trades as carpenters, plumbers, etc. can contract directly with a property owner. And one of the Registrar of Contractors rules is that all money charged for labor must go to those who performed the labor. The contractor can keep none for himself. It is the statutory law that a contractor cannot divert any labor money. He cannot deduct taxes and turn any over to the government. That constitutes diversion. One contractor in our state was reprimanded in a court of law for putting money in the bank and then writing a check from the bank account. The court stated that constituted a diversion of funds.
Tom,While I agree that most carpenters could stand to make more money I have to take issue with your numbers.You have 2,080 hours of "straight" time available, from which you deduct 264 hours, which by your own admission is paid time. Why do you deduct the 264 hours?Employees get paid for 40 hours when they work 40 regardless if their time is billable or not.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
JonBlakemore
<!----><!----> <!---->
You are correct about employees being paid for all the hours in which they work or are logged in their time card summary.
<!----> <!---->
The employee’s indirect hours vacation, holidays, personal, sick leave, employer paid education, general labor slippage, warranty service, customer service, public service and so forth will still be compensated by the employer. However the funds for this indirect labor will be funded by revenues generated through the employer’s overhead invoicing structure.
<!----> <!---->
The point I was trying to make in my example is that the employee will actually only work 1816 hours, with time off for vacation- holidays personal & sick leave (264 hours) Therefore leaving some 1816 of hours in which to work straight time. Assuming the employer pays no paid time off the 1816 hours would be the annual hour’s divisor in which the employee would use to calculate the hourly revenue needed to fund the “fair†hourly living wage. If the employer pays for time off then 2080 hours could effectively be the straight time hour’s divisor.
<!----> <!---->
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
tom.. that 's a good worksheet...
i noticed one thing in your living wage calc.
it's based on a family with one income.. all fine and dandy .. and more power to those who can..
but isn't the average working family a two-income wage earner ?
if so.. then that "living wage" could be the combination of the two ( $36 or so ) so.. a carp. making $25 could be backstopped by his wife making $15.. or , as a lot of BT'ers do.. they make $15 and their wife makes the $25
BTW .. i base my calcs on 1500 annual production hours for my guysMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think any living wage computation shoul be based on one income earner in the household. The majority of two income households are going in the hole with both menebers working. The see a larger income but overhead is also much higher. Not just cars and childcare but in other areas also. Food costs and the number of stops at fast food and pizza joints are way up. A stay at home spouse can feed a family of four on $10/day easily, both working tends to lead to expensive minimal work to eat foods as well as 2 extra paid lunches/day.
If a second spouse chooses to work it should be get 'gravy' not to provide for basic needs.
Just my oppinion worth only what you have paid for it. : )
pete... that's right.. and i actually know two guys who have stay at home wives....no, wait..... three guys
my mom was a stay-at-home mom... until us kids were gone... then she got a job because wh wanted a job..
one of my brothers ( out of 7 siblings ) has always been the sole support... by choice..
two of my cousin's ( out of 10 siblings ) are sole support with their wives staying at home..
my point is the AVERAGE working class couple is a two wage earner family... so... a living wage is no longer what one person is paid.... but rather what the two person team brings in... that is just a fact of life in the US ( and a lot of the western world )
and i will say this.. it was easier ( easier ... not easy ) for my wife and i to make it, when we got married in '73, than it is today for young people starting out on their own.... i'd say by a factor of at least 2...
and, no, the fact that they may be going in the hole is not because both are out working ..... but rather because they may be living beyond their means.. don't confuse cause with effect..
some with one wage earner live within their income, some with two wage earners live within their income... and it doesn't really matter what their income is.. it matters with how they spend their money.. ( unless they are unlucky in their circumstances.. and there are plenty in that boat )..
read " The Millionair Next Door" for a good insite into this phenomenon.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike - I agree with what you said, and I think you hit a couple nails on the head. Consumption today is a real big issue, one that is often ignored.
Now, the question is where is the REAL Mike Smith, the Democrat that the Republicans (like me) love to argue with ?? Where's the pod? LOL
Don K.
he's working his butt off.. so's his wife... they asked me to sit in for him ..
how'm i doing ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
if so.. then that "living wage" could be the combination of the two ( $36 or so ) so.. a carp. making $25 could be backstopped by his wife making $15.. or , as a lot of BT'ers do.. they make $15 and their wife makes the $25
Mike,
My wife went back to school after our duaghter was born and recently graduated and returned to work. She does three 12's a week and usually only two of them are week days.
I can't tell you how many of my friends who are still in the trades tell me " I wish I were in your shoes. Now you can just do whatever you want and not worry about money" and, " Hey if things don't work out she can just pick up an extra 12 hour shift each week to make up for what you don't make".
I just don't understand that approach but each to thier own I guess. It does seem to be the way things are going as of late and it makes me kinnda sad. I remember my dad, the man of the house, heading out to work in his 1959 International that he spray painted with rattle cans with two bucks in his pocket to put food on the table while my mom watched kids and worked part time at night.
Not that it matters these days as Uncle Sam seems to interpret the fine print in my contract just a little different than anyone else who can read write or speak english.
robert...
<<<
Not that it matters these days as Uncle Sam seems to interpret the fine print in my contract just a little different than anyone else who can read write or speak english.
>>>
does that mean that you didn't get released... was it some type of stop-loss action ?
your plans have changed so many times in the past two years it's hard to keep track.. if i recall... you were due to get out and return to the land of the big PX and your remodeling business....
any ways... best to you, and yours .. especially at this time of yearMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
<!----><!----> <!---->
Actually I set the worksheets expenses on a “single individualâ€. (See the data log) In this “brief†data log I had mentioned the individual was a Master trades individual. Or to be specific his or her skills are at a level of very high competency.
<!----> <!---->
I suspect the budget for married individuals to be considerably higher. Additional expenses would be occurred. For example: If the spouse works then there would be an addition vehicle. If there were children than those cost would have to be line itemed as well. A college savings funds – Additional food consumption – Additional clothing expenses. How about medical dental cost? How about the things I missed? Vacation Xmas gifts and so on.
<!----> <!---->
As far as revenue goes maybe the spouse has an invested in an extensive education career similar in duration to many of the master trades individuals lets say 5-7 years. One could have been a doctor or a lawyer in the same time frame. In these cases I would say one might expect a “fair wage†similar to the one I suggested in my work sheet.
<!----> <!---->
Respectfully,
TomWorking for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
"I suspect the budget for married individuals to be considerably higher. Additional expenses would be occurred. For example: If the spouse works then there would be an addition vehicle. If there were children than those cost would have to be line itemed as well. A college savings funds – Additional food consumption – Additional clothing expenses. How about medical dental cost? How about the things I missed? Vacation Xmas gifts and so on"You make my point.What you are saying is that a FAIR wage is determined by the lifestyle of the worker.That gets back to the old excuse tht you woman could be paid less because they usually weren't the primary bread winner.You are saying that a the FAIR WAGE of some that is want to live in a big fancy house and buy a new expensive car each year is much higher than some one that life a more modest life style.And not one word about what value that person brings to the employer.
Tom,
What you are saying is that a FAIR wage is determined by the lifestyle of the worker.<!----><!----><!---->
That gets back to the old excuse tht you woman could be paid less because they usually weren't the primary bread winner.<!----><!---->
You are saying that a the FAIR WAGE of some that is want to live in a big fancy house and buy a new expensive car each year is much higher than some one that life a more modest life style.<!----><!---->
And not one word about what value that person brings to the employer.
Bill,<!----><!---->
You are right; I should have elaborated more about the qualities, skills and contributions of the employee in my example. Let’s say for argument sake that this individual has mastered the skills in his or her field. And at this level requires no supervision, that excels from a technical and performance stand point to a degree that would be recognized by their piers as very acceptable. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
If it came across that I feel an employee should be compensated by each individual’s lifestyle I did not mean too. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I do not recall the monthly vehicle expense on my budget however I find it hard to believe the expense entry I had would fund a new vehicle every year.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I am a builder; you made a comment about persons having the want or desire to live home. I hope this never stops, for when it does we all are in a world of hurt.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
One of my personal goals when I entered this industry was once I acquired the skills in my field as a master was to have a revenue source generated from that position to fund a modest living budget and that included home ownership.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
You commented about a $200,000.00 home being a big fancy house. Well, in a market in which the builders of the home are paid dysfunctional wages that may be the case. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
In a market were the participants in the construction of the home are highly skilled and educated, the design of the home was professionally executed, practical in every aspect and all the participants are paid a fair wage the home may not be as enormous as you commented.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Respectfully,
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Mike,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
You are right on with billable hours annually per employee.
(1450 – 1500 hrs.)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Indirect Hours Task<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Hrs.<!----><!---->
% <!----><!---->
Of Total<!----><!---->
2080 hrs<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Vacation<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Holidays<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
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Personal & sick <!----><!---->
Leave<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Sales & travel<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Bidding & Travel<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->
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Contact & Specification Draft<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
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General Administrative<!----><!---->
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Education & Training<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
Labor slippage <!----><!---->
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Bookkeeping<!----><!---->
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Equipment Indirect<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
I see absolutlely nothing in what you posted that has anything to do with what is a fair wage."1 : a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to a contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis"
Bill,<!----><!----><!---->
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According to Webster, definition of fair: (Attractive – Just and honest – According to the rules)<!----><!---->
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If we use the word Attractive as a definition for a “fair wage†then we cold say the compensation in the form of an hourly salary is “Pleasing†to the recipient.<!----><!---->
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If we use the word’s “just and honest†as a definition for a “fair wage†then one could say the compensation in the form of an hourly compensation is “Right deserved & proper <!----><!---->
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If we use the Phrase: “According to the rules†as a definition for a fair wage then one could say the compensation in the form of an hourly compensation is “In harmony or agreement†with ones reasonable living expenses<!----><!---->
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The question was and is: what do others consider a fair wage?<!----><!---->
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I beg to differ with you Bill, I think my simple worksheet provides one with a very basic way for a skilled trades person to calculate what constitutes a fair and I will add decent living wage.<!----><!---->
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Have you tried asking Mary?<!----><!---->
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Respectfully submitted,<!----><!---->
Tom<!----><!---->
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<!----> <!---->Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Zbalk wrote:
Yessir, I believe you're right, plenty of blame to go around. But I wonder about your optimism about being able to work until you (we) drop. Who will have the $ to pay those working 'til they drop? And if there are a few padrons left to employ us millions of minions, how many centavos a day will we draw? You can't bankrupt the population and still expect them to buy the "stuff" they made ten years ago (whether it was superfluous goods or not) that are now manufactured all over the third world and China. In the scheme of economic history and the rise and fall of people living well, or not, under one flag or another, we are falling to a global standard of living that may or may not be rising. Only time will tell about that. The American middle class and our notion of democracy, in our little bitty ever so brief span of social history was a grand and wonderful time for the few generations that experienced the period. The world has changed and continues to change. No partisan political philosophy or expounding on good and bad economic policy can change that. Who's to blame. Maybe nobody, and what difference can it possibly make? Just biding time here in the U.S. of A., that's us. Zbalk
Great post you are right on with this subject.
Tom
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.