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Hi gang, my first problem has arisen! 5 days after the stated 1 year warranty(per contract) a former client has called to tell me his roof is leaking. I advised him that the warranty on labor and workmanship is up, but that I would look at it for him. He got angry and said he would have it looked at and repaired by someone else and send me the bill. If I didn’t pay it that he would see me in court.
What should I expect from this? Fellow contractors here have said don’t worry about it, he’s got no grounds to take me to court, just the same I’m nervous.
Has any of you ever experienced this before? This guy is a criminal attorney, so I bet he knows his stuff pretty well.
Thanks, Cameron
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your client is a lawyer.. you is screwed...
file this :
" i'll be right out to take a look at it "" it never hurts to look... not unless they are harrassing you with numerous call-backs...
After you look at it , you can decide if you are going to fix it or let him pound sand.... but your first move should be to placate him.. and investigate..
win or lose .. if he gets the inclination to make your life miserable .. he can..
look into putting an arbitration clause in your contracts so you can't be dragged into court...
*I'm embarassd for you that you even said that it was 5 days over his warrantee date. One year warrantee on a roof? You've got to be kidding!I would have been there the next day, if not the same day and fixed it whatever the cost.Funny, when I tell clients our warrantee policy I tell them "Do you know that when a contractor gives you a one year warrantee on your new kitchen he's telling you in effect, 'I warrantee that those wall cabinets will not fall off during the first year. After that you're on your own.'
*geesh, sonny.. you're right.. i thought he said 5 YEARS.... man.. if i was that lawyer , i 'd do exactly what he said ...... even at 5 YEARS.. you should go look and see what the problem is.... if it's something you did .. fix it.. if it's something the client did... help him out... it can only pay dividends...and keep you out of court...call him back and tell him you were having a bad hair day....do it first thing tomorrow...
*Go see the man and fix the problem. If you don't, he's gonna eat you for lunch in court.5 days AFTER a one year warranty on a roof job is so close to the one year warranty that you should go do it just because it is the right thing to do. The fact that the roof had a problem big enough to require repairing after only 1 year means that the roof job was probably sub standard (unless mother nature caused the problem). Under that condition (sub standard), he will eat you for lunch in court. It will cost you less to go repair it, no matter what you have to do. James DuHamel
*Gee guys. I told him I would come out to look at it first. I didn't put the roof on the addition and the roofing contractor died. I guess I am screwed eh. Thanks
*i I didn't put the roof on the addition and the roofing contractor died. You are screwed only if you were the GC on the job. If you were the GC, then it is your puppy anyway. If you were NOT the GC, then why are you involved?Next time, use a sub that has a better business layout and future. If a businessman dies, in most cases someone ELSE takes over the business and all it's liabilities. Very small contractors usually don't. I'm not saying don't ever use the small guy, but if you are a GC home builder, then you will have to warranty your homes. With that in mind, as well as the current predicament, start using subs that have a future if the owner dies.Just an opinion...James
*Thanks James, he is letting pay the bill for the repairs or do it myself. He was self-contracting and out to save a buck so he asked me an unexperienced metal roofer to do the job dirt cheap....I needed the money, so I did it.....big mistake. Next time it'll be a sub. Anyway, It's going to work out since now that I am a GC (licensed, but not when his addition was done) I am making a heck of a lot more money. By the way my attorney said to let him take me to court....I don't have to do what I'm doing, but doing so to keep my name clean around here. He had a tree land on the house over the winter, so if the damage and leak are caused by that.....it's the insurance company that'll pay for this one! Thanks for all of your responses....it's working out!
*Cameron:Like Sonny said, you should have been out there right away to take care of that roof. Forget that your client is a lawyer - that has nothing to do with it. Forget that you were technically past your warrantee - a reputable contractor gains his or her reputation by doing what is right. Who do you think defines what is right? You? or the client?In a case such as this, your response by going right out to check (and most likely fix) the roof shows your client what you are made of. This shows your committment to him even when the legaleze runs out. And who do you think your client will be bragging about to all of his friends (who all have "bad contractor" stories of their own)about great service? And who will he go to for his next project?Customer service and goodwill go further in this business than arguing with former clients about such issues as this.To address your other concern: tree damage during the winter. Wouldn't it be simpler to go out to your clients house (showing him your continued support and loyalty)and assess the problem first? If it was clearly due to tree damage, then you would be within your rights both ethically and legally to advise him of the problem and then offer him a proposal to fix the roof.
*Cameron,Sounds like you missed a great opportunity to make a buck and be the hero.1. Find out if it was REALLY a warranty problem. 9 times out of 10, it's a straight repair, nothing to do with your workmanship.2. Be there within 2 hours of that call and your the hero. "The man was out before I hung-up the phone!"3. All this does is show concern for the customer.Lawyers make a lot of money because they earn it. They also pay for quality. And they respect businesses that respect them!
*Cameron,my peers here are way off base on this one.Your 1 year warrranty is rather short,but it is in the contract so why extend it?the manufacturers of tires,toasters,vcr's,automobiles ,computers,or any other consumer goods will tell you to pound sand if you try to collect on a warranty that has expired. 5 days or 5 years past the expiration makes no difference.My peers here who tell us we should charge for estimates and bill just like other professionals are really asking you to waffle here and act un-professionally. Stick to the contract and resolve never to work for lawyers or engineers in the future.
*come on, steve.. that 's not the issue..the issue is>>" what is the initial response ?"you wouldn't have ended that phone conversation the same way he did..you would have investigated 1st, then decided if you were going to invoke your warranty or not...you may , or may not have stuck to the letter of the warranty... but 1st find out what is going on.. you wouldn't have left a customer with a leaky roof one year and 5 days after you did the work....nor 5 years after you did the work....especially when you and i know that the fix is probably easy.. and probably nothing to do with your workmanship...also.. you would want time to review your contract.. and make sure where you stood....the way you handle calls like this has a lot to do with success or failure...you didn't build your business and reputation by handling problems that way.....did you ?
*Steve, Come-on, buddy!!!!!Your gonna let a lawyer tell you your roof is leaking?No, You would calmly go out and check it out first yourself........then figure out whether it's worth charging, fixing or fighting.By allowing an other roofer on the job, the defendant will never get a chance to document (pics) the existing conditions.= Toast!
*My prayer for tonight is to have all of my competitiors here act the "professional" Steve would have them.
*Sonny,you are generally a fountain of usefull information----which I frequently appreciate.Occasionally,however, you are unbearably pompous.Not all of us buy into EVERY aspect of your crusade for WOW service(or a profanity free internet). That doesn't make us all wrong---just people with different views and different life experience.Now,Mike and Mark----lets tell it like it is.Are we discussing how I would (and do )handle the situation or are we discussing the terms Camerons' warranty and the content of his original post.I already decribed here(in another thread) long ago how I handle warrranty work.In fact Sonny even came down off of Mt. Sinai long enough to pat me on the head for my commitment to rapid service.BUT what Cameron is talking about is post warranty work----and thats a different thing,isn't it?what I do is pretty much what Mark outlined.What Cameron described is not really out of line----after all he offered to respond to the leak.his mistake (if it was a mistake) was even mentioning the warranty over the phone during the original conversation.Much more effective to respond to the call,assess the situation,Then explain that the warranty is expired and hand over a written proposal for the new work and the charges associated.thats exactly what a car dealershipor a TV repairman handles the situation----why should we handle it differently?BTW, since all I do is roof work I come across this situation more often than a lot of you.Any time unwanted water enters a building it is assummed to be a roof leak.usually it's not.water enters the house through siding leaks,clogged gutters,open windows,and my personal favorite from this winter---leaking plumbing elbows.I hate to think of the time I have wasted responding to these "warrranty claims" I am still waiting for an apology from any of these people for wasting my time( I mean ,come on, the floor is wet in the basement-----don't you think the drip coming out of that pipe overhead is the culprit?)remember,when you are installing roofs you are installing a product that IS GOING TO FAIL AT SOME POINT.like brakes,shocks,mufflers,tires etc. a roof has a limited lifespan and a multitude of things can damage it beyond your controll.You better have a plan in place to handle those calls when they come.
*Steve, I'm still praying.Nothing is determined until it is investigated. And the discourse that preceeds the investigation should be directed toward the clients problem, not the warrantee.This represented a great opportunity for Cameron to "differentiate" himself from his peers and at a minimum cost (a site visit) and to obtain so much PR and marketing. Instead of having an attorney, who knows a lot of people, bragging about his quick service, the opposite has occured.BTW, about 18 months ago we made a good deal on a 1996 Plymouth Voyager miniman from a dealer. It had 11,500 miles on it, like new and was purchased "as is". Three days later the alternator failed. We set up a service call, took it in expecting to pay for the repair. The dealer replaced it at no charge. That's a WOW!Question. What dealer will I deal with next time we want a new vehicle? This Chrysler dealership. Why? It's reputation has been established. It differentiated itself from it's peers via it's "values."Customers for life. How does one get them and retain them?If you've been following my posts you know that's another reason why I suggest a 1%-2% line item in the overhead entitled" Warrantee Work" and another line item entitled "Marketing." Either line item would have covered this service call - at no charge to Cameron, but Ahhh, the PR.Pompous on Mt. Sinai? On some issues, damn straight! Not my contention, but that of many business authors would verify, customers buy "values" - ours.Finally, as you'll notice, Cameron never made mention of the falling tree in his original post. So regardless, an investigative service call was still mandated. If it was obvious that a tree damaged it, of course a charge would be made for the repairs.As I stated, Cameron blew an opportunity.
*Not that I disagree about Sonny being a bit pedantic most of the time, but he's right on the money here. Steve, you can't even convince fellow contractors that the post-warranty point is valid and you think you're going to sell that to a customer? Then you slur lawyers and engineers, as if it's their professions that made the roof leak?Yes, roofs fail, but not in a year. And if it leaked 5 days after a year, this is normal product failure? Warranty calls are a fact of life. Do them with a good attitude and people appreciate it. Do them with a chip on your shoulder and even if people were happy with the job, they will tell all their friends what a soundrel you are. It is not only wrong; it isn't worth it.And now a word about criminal lawyers, which is what I do in my other life. We litigate. All day long. And there isn't a general practice lawyer who can hold a candle to a criminal lawyer. We tend to be much more honest and fair, but if you piss us off, we will be your worst nightmare. We are either your best friend or worst enemy. SHG
*All right.....I have a question. If the warranty is a year (as in this example), and the majority of people are saying rush right over and fix it up, a week after the warranty period is up.....exactly when does the (unofficially extended) warranty expire? A year and ten days? A year and a month? A year and six months and four days? When? I've heard a few isolated examples of companies going above and beyond stated warranty periods....never actually seen it applied to anything I've ever bought, though. The line has to be drawn somewhere, and in this case, both parties agreed it would be one year. I'm not sure why, again, contractors have to go one step further than anyone else in business.Myself, I don't practice what I just preached; unless someone is an asshole, their stuff is covered. I was just in at a casino I do some work for; a drawer slide failed one month after the one year warranty period (this is actually more like a three year period for them, because they go 24 hours a day.....I may have to reconsider my warranty with them, because they abuse the cabinets and I'm getting screwed because they don't look after their cabs). anyway, two trips (early morning to accomodate them), two new pairs of slides, plus I replaced a handful of hinges they had bent (again, abuse), adjusted a bunch of stuff, replaced another hinge on some other work where I had noticed on my last trip they had broken a hinge...you get the picture. This is a month after the warranty is up, I'm not charging them. Am I off the hook, you guys who say Cameron is deficient in this case? Or what? Someone let me know.
*adrain.. i'm not saying cameron has to honor a warranty after the time has expired.. i'm saying his response was wrong...first reassure the customer.. then investigate.. if you are not at fault.. but it won't cost you much to fix it.. fix it.. or does anyone think that good will can be thrown away...we spend thousands of dollars marketing, advertising, providing answering achines.. communicating..surely we can invest a little more time finding out what is wrong with the roof...what's the bottom line with cameron...?he wond up tucking his tail and getting over there to investigate... we all have to train ourselves to make the correct response the first time...if the customer turns out to be just a PITA , then we can invoke the terms of our warranty..keep in mind, though.. it will cost a lot more to defend the terms of a warranty in court than to just go ahead and fix the problem.. here, the customer was a motivated attorney.. not the best customer to argue the finer points of the warranty laws with....sometimes you gotta know when to fold 'em...cause the time for walking away was before the contract was committed to, not after...it always seems like a thankless job, when you get the call from the customer.. but , unless we want to act like we give out taillight warranties... we have to make our first response positive.... wait to go negative after you have ALL the facts...
*I am gonna stick my neck out here and say - I think Cameron just wanted to get a bunch of you arguing over how YOU would handle a warranty situation. For all we know, HE may be the client that had the roof fail 5 days after the warranty.His story doesn't pan out.First, HE was the roofer, and got called by a lawyer client because the roof had failed 5 days after the warranty was up.Second, next part of his story he changes - NOW, the roofer was a sub who died. Because the roofer died, Cameron was now stuck with this mess. When I asked him if he was the GC, he replied no. Seems NOW, a tree had fallen during the winter and caused some damage. Story just keeps on changing.Third, now is when he replied that in fact, HE was the roofer, but had no experience other than metal roofs. He needed the money, and the lawyer wanted to hire the work done out for almost nothing. He took it based on financial need at the time. The client (the Lawyer) was actually acting as his own GC, and hiring out the subs to save some money. THIS scenario sounds more like Cameron than a lawyer. I know lots of lawyers, and I have never known one that had the time to do all the necessary legwork and managing of a self GC.Just my opinion....James DuHamel
*Putting aside whether Cameron is legit or a shill, Adrian asks a good question. So when is a warranty over?My experience with major manufacturers is that they honor warranties for three months after expiration. They tell you that they warranty expired, but that they will honor it as a good will gesture. This method has a few benefits: First, it tells the customer that the warranty is over, so the customer knows not to keep dipping into the well. Second, it takes care of the problem anyway, so the customer is happy. Third, it makes clear to the customer that the warranty work is not being done because of obligation, as the obligation has expired, but because the company is being a "good guy."In the mind of a customer, by which I mean all of us as we are all customers of someone, things shouldn't fail if properly made and installed. For example, what about that fridge that dies a week after the warranty expires. Are major appliances supposed to last a year and a week or 10 years? So if it fails prematurely, even though the warranty is technically up, do we still not feel that we've been ripped off? It just shouldn't happen, not if it was a quality appliance. Major companies know this, and while everyone would rather not deal with these calls, they realize that word of mouth, and repeat business, are worth far more than technical reliance on legalistic warranties. And since the failure rate isn't that bad, the extra three months (or one month in some cases) is worth far more in customer satisfaction and trust than the effort to repair.Doing the right thing is more a state of mind than anything else. There are some guys who just duck any responsibility. There are some who stand up. It's just the type of person you choose to be.SHG
*SHG Law,I certainly did not imply that lawyers and engineers cause leaks to occur. What I implied was that lawyers and engineers are, as a group, a giant pain in the ass to deal with.Best to avoid them in the first place.( for the record I have found school teachers to be among the best to deal with)your mention that "criminal lawyers are your worst nightmare etc. etc. etc." is a case in point.In fact I imagine that's the kind of bullying attitude that camerons customer took.Regular folks like policemen,firemen,accountants,factory workers,office workers,even doctors don't cop the same antagonistic attitude that lawyers do,and they certainly don't try to micro manage the way engineers do.
*Adrian,I want to thank you.I think that you saw the point that I tried to make so badly.Is the customer free to essentially re-write the terms of the contract over a year later without camerons consent?Remember he had a contract that clearly stated a 1 year warranty.the one year was up.If cameron chooses to extend it,I feel that it his choice. I don't feel that the customer can decide that a written 1 year warranty really means 1 yr plus 5 days,1yr plus 5 weeks,1yr plus 5 months or whatever.And despite that shglaw claims manufacturers routinely extend a 3 month grace period-----in my consumer dealings I have found that generally 1 yr means exactly 1 year. 50,000 miles means exactly 50,000 miles.If the customer is free to re-write this contract provision over a year later----is he also free to re-write others?Even though the contract calls for the bathroom to be painted"sky blue" can he insist over a year later that it be re-painted "urine yellow" at no charge.Can he re-write the price of a $240,000 house a year later and demand a $16,000 refund?Of course not----so why is this contract provision any different?If the customer felt that 1 yr was an unreasonably short warranty then he should have ironed that out over a year ago before signing a contract.Adrian,a lot of consumer warranties carry a "normal wear and tear clause" which voids the warranty if the item suffers excessive use and wear beyond what a normal consumer would inflict. perhaps such a clause could be added in the future to cover the casino situation?
*steve.. you can add all the clauses you want... but.. if an issue arises .. at any time.. during or after the warranty period.. we all have to look beyond the document and weigh the consequences.... a smart contractor ( or even a dumb one like me who has learned from my customer relation mistakes ).. will not pass judgement over a phone call.. he will hold his decision until he has the facts.. which usally means a site visit..his first duty, as the custodian of the reputation of his company.. is to reassure the customer.."I'll be over on such and such a day to check that out."" or .. if it's leaking.... "" i'll be right over to see what we can do""the customer is relieved and disarmed...then when the facts are known , he can decide if the remedial work is a warranty issue ... a customer relations issue... or not contract related.. and decide the appropriate response...now comes the hard part.....if all you have is a warranty clause...then the only way to defend it is for your lawyer to argue before a judge against his lawyer....is that how you want to spend the next 2 to 5 years of your life ?don't do it.. suck it in.. stop the leak... get the customer satisfied...if you want to defend a warranty clause... then put another clause in your contract.. a "binding arbitration clause""at least in arbitration you can defend it yourself and arrive at a conclusion.. if you go to court and get a judgement.. it will likely be appealed to the next court level...if you have a legal staff that does nothing but defend warranties.. even they will try to negotiate.. it just doesn't pay to wind up in court..so .. if you keep that in the back of your mind... when you first field the phone call...you can turn it into a game.."how can i take this contact from my customer and turn it into a positive for them and me ?""" now.. that said... every once in a while.. you will get the customer from hell..that you cannot satisfy.. thus the arbitration clause... and that is the tiome to draw a line...but cameron's situation was just badly handled at first...when he followed up , it worked out...but it could have been win... win...win..that is the point we're trying to make.. and it is also the reputation YOU have.. or you would not be doing so well....you have an investment in your reputation and your marketing plan....are you going to protect the investment ? then you have to train yourself as to how you will respond to the unpleasant phone calls....it's a game.. we can play it well.. or play it badly...
*Mike, I like your last post----I couldn't agree more.Of course that doesn't stop me from wondering about the points Adrian and I mentioned.BTW, In a good year I climb onto about 200 roofs a year in one capacity or another.This has gone on for years and years.In a city my size thats really no big deal----there are PLENTY of roofing companies that completely dwarf my volume.Still ,all in all,over the years that adds up to a lot of potential warranty claims.To date, I have never been sued nor has it even been a remote possibility( that pounding sound you here is me franticly knocking on wood!). In this trade that is a statistic that is a little bit harder to maintain----but certainly possible.LOOOOOONG before you do your first roof you better have a plan in place to handle the inevitable warranty claims to everyones satisfaction-----and maybe to your own profit.In the average year I doubt I spend even 1/2 a day total on warranty work----maybe 3 calls.It's not rocket science.but that doesn't mean I am gonna let anyone bully me into extending the warranty at their whim.
*Yup, noone is arguing the PR/goodwill side of it, just this question of the client changing the nature of the agreement after the fact.
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Hi gang, my first problem has arisen! 5 days after the stated 1 year warranty(per contract) a former client has called to tell me his roof is leaking. I advised him that the warranty on labor and workmanship is up, but that I would look at it for him. He got angry and said he would have it looked at and repaired by someone else and send me the bill. If I didn't pay it that he would see me in court.
What should I expect from this? Fellow contractors here have said don't worry about it, he's got no grounds to take me to court, just the same I'm nervous.
Has any of you ever experienced this before? This guy is a criminal attorney, so I bet he knows his stuff pretty well.
Thanks, Cameron