Raised in the city, and now living in the country. It was no problem going down my well to straighten out the water line which has been sucking air on occasion this summer. I rigged up a rope chair on a pulley and test drove it in the basement, it was similar to one I used in my 20’s to repair grain elevators. I soon realized the 50 or 60 lbs I’ve gained since then may not all be muscle, so I quickly added more pulleys. I placed a steel beam over the well, chained up my pulley block, and with the DW as a witness, lowered myself 16 feet into my dug well. I straightened out the curved plastic line with a 10′ stainless steel angle and fastened with cable ties. I got the line 2′ deeper into the water. I had alot of fun doing it and thought the result was well worth the effort.
Later friends were telling me horor stories of people going into wells and being overcome with gas, CO2, etc and dying. Was I just lucky?
Replies
going into a dug, large diameter (36") WELL is not that dangerous as far as any "deadly" gases, etc, that may overcome you.
Now, going into a SEPTIC systems holding tank is a whole different ball game.(deadly)
The only thing stupid was not having someone strong enough at the top to pull you out if something happened that you were unprepared for.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
200lbs and 20' is a tough pull unless married to Schwartzneger (not) or have a winch handy. DW had a 28' ladder roped together to drop down in case. Never thought about passing out.
One vote for stupid.
Gord: Doesn't need to be Schwartzenegger - any Bulgarian Olympic weightlifter gold medalist would do. When you started that sentence about the ladder, I thought you were going to say she had it strapped across her butt to keep from being sucked into the intellectual vacuum - a phrase I use all the time. Didn't think there were two people in the universe w/ the same perverse sense of humor.DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Roar!!!
One vote for intellectual.
I came across a project in the city (NYC) where a diesel fuel line had to be snaked through an extg. shaft from the mechanical floor (34th floor IIRC) to the basement in a midtown skyscraper. The contractor rigged up something similar. They had to do it this way because they could not open up the shafts on any of the other tenants floor. Not sure if it was upto OSHA requirements though.
I roped myself down so I wouldn't disturb the water, ladder would have mucked the well up for days.
That your drinking water?
If so, I concur. But not for access reasons.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Its drinkable, beautiful water. No rings on the porcelain and boil a pot dry with no scale.
Coliform test results? Hard water generally won't hurt you.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Every test I've had on the well has come back clean, but the last test was...some things I should never take for granted.
Good idea.
I've drunk from public fountains in Rome, and considerably further south. No ill effects. Family member took a sip from a local water supply in Greece and wished she was dead. The Mexicans don't generally get Montezuma's revenge. Also done a bit of back-packing and drunk whatever was available. But after seeing what giardia can do, I changed my methods.
Not to be overly negative, but there ain't 1 water source like yours in the whole state here that meets coliform standards. Far as I know, you have coliform. Only an indicator, not a threat, but your drinking water is at risk. Might wanna take a peek at: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dpd/healthywater/factsheets/contaminants.htm
I'd be thinking about UV treatment.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Noted
Thanks Tom
"Also done a bit of back-packing and drunk whatever was available. But after seeing what giardia can do, I changed my methods. "
Good plan. Had a friend who didn't want to insult the locals in Egypt and ate/drank with them. Then thought he could get through giardia with positive thoughts and lots of rest. After losing 60 pounds, he went to the doctor (Flagyl works better!). David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Just think about the guy who dug the well ! 16' isnt anything around here for a handdug well. Ive seen them 40-50'. Theres one well just over the mt from me that is about 35' lined with the stone and the opening was only about 20-24"! How did they lay the stone? Hanging from thier heels on rropes?Ive heard of digging old septic tanks by undermining concrete rings as u go down but not stone.There wasnt even room to move ur shoulders. " Hey Jethro could u find me another rock I dont like the face on this one.. something about 9" with the left side flat and the right side sloped?
Looks like something I would do ! My wife got nervous when I was erecting my windmill, on a 52 foot tower. You better believe I used a safety belt.
a good adventure !
Greg
You shoulda had Lassie standing by too.
Joe H
I think I would have lowered a lighted candle or some such first. Or at the very minimum, have it setup so that someone from above could pull ya out.
And keep an eye out for snakes or other wonderful things.
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Edited 8/31/2005 1:50 pm ET by JohnT8
A candle is a great idea, the cat ate the canary.
One vote for snake.
I will confess I once went down into my old concrete block septictank that hadn't been used in like 20years to clean it up and repair.
Kind of thing you'd never hire yourself out to do but if it's your own...
5 gallon pails and a shovel.
No parakeet and lived to tell about it.
Least I think I'm still alive.
as Buddha said to the hotdog vendor .... "make me one with everything"
Please be careful guys. Most fire depts. and rescue squads will let you borrow a monitor to lower into the hole first. There are way too many news reports of people getting overcome and then the next 4 or 5 would-be rescuers also dieing in the attempts to save them without some type of SCBA gear.
I work in a plant and confined space safety is taken very seriously but it seems most of the deaths occur in seemingly harmless places; farm manure pits, septic tanks, electric manholes, etc. Please, take some precautions, if not for yourselves, then for the rescuers who could be killed. JMHO and 2cents. I'll get off the soapbox and shutup now. <g>.
Lefty - Lurker without an attitude or a clue
Add fortitude and determination to your list of redeeming qualities.
After 20 years how bad could it be?
Bad.
I would not say that you were stupid, just uninformed. A hole 3 feet wide and 16 feet deep is an area where heavier than air gases settle and displace Oxygen. I was a fireman for 20 years and would read the fire magazines, the magazines would have stories all the time about situations like yours where someone would go down the hole and pass out, then someone else would try to go down to save them and also pass out. Some cases would require 3 or 4 people passing out(sometimes firefighters) before someone would realize that there was something wrong with the air. Many of the folks who passed out died. So just because you did this a few times in the past, don't assume that it can't happen if you try it the future. There is no reason to beleive that a dug well hole can't contain a lack of oxygen or toxic gasses. OSHA considers the well to be a confined space that needs atmosperic monitoring before entry. People advising that it is OK to go down a well like yours, the way you did, are encouraging others that what you did is safe, and that could get someone else hurt.
I respect the advice of firemen, fools like me don't see enough of the bad for it to sink in.
Slightly off topic, but I fgured a fireman would appreciate this. A bumper sticker I saw today read something like this: "I live with constant danger and fear everyday, but occaisionally I must leave my wife and go fight fires". Seen on the back of a volunteer firefighter's truck in Bridgehampton, NY.
I agree with your post to gordzco, been in similar situations, i.e. someone venting freon into a confined space, not enough oxygen left to make it 16ft. before they died. Where I live even storm sewers that have any depth have to be checked for air quality before you enter them. Better to be safe than sorry.
ha ha, bizarre thought just ran through my head: redneck #1 lowers himself into the well while redneck #2 holds the leaf blowing blowing 'fresh' air into the well. I'm sure there's a picture of it somewhere on the internet (probably at the point at which redneck 2 drops the electric leaf blower into the water...electrocuting redneck1) ;)
jt8
"Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago." --Warren Buffett
Edited 8/31/2005 4:29 pm ET by JohnT8
To answer your question, no. The odds that the air would be good were pretty high, and you would have had to have been very unlucky to have killed yourself because of the atmosphere being toxic or oxygen deficient. But the possibility was there. Be safe.
Amateurs talk strategy, Generals talk logistics.
The concern would be that slow bacterial action could have depleted the air of oxygen and left it high in CO2. If it only used up a third of the O2 and therefore had about 4 to 5 % CO2, you would have had tingling in your lips and an overwhelming sensation to breath hard and deep. I know people who experienced that in caves. But if more O2 than that had been used up, you'd pass out before you noticed the signs.
Lowering a candle ALL THE WAY down is a good idea. Above about 3 % CO2, the flame can't sustain. You could however breathe that 3% CO2 / 16% O2 air with the above-mentioned symptoms (That's what mouth-to-mouth reciptients get).
I've dropped into caves on a single rope (rappel down, have "Jumar" ascendors to come out) in which either a Bic lighter or an electronic snifter is used to check the air as you go. The separation between atmospheric and stagnant air can be VERY abrupt. I've flicked a bic and lowered it with the flame on. As I lowered the lighter thru the transition the flame stayed above that level. The butane jet went several inches through the oxygen-deficient air until it was in the air above and could burn. Very odd to see a flame floating 2 inches above the lighter.
Once way to eliminate most all worries would be with ventilation. Extend an electric shop vac hose (with 2" pipe) to just above the water. Let it suck for 10 minutes. Then go spelunking. Use no combustion equipment. Carbon monoxide and enclosed spaces are a bad combo.
reading the posts i was wondering if at only 16' if just a good sized blower blow'n down into the well would make it safe or safer? the post about the electric leaf blower... might just work...? I'm sure most on this board have done many things that could have left em with nothing but their name carved in stone somewhere... seems i do it most days... someone has to do it...
p
I think a leaf blower would do for only 16 feet. Seems like you would feel a breeze on your cheek 16 feet away, so it would stir things up a bit at the bottom. And provide a lot of circulation up higher.
I was trying to be conservative in my recommendation of sucking air from the bottom of the shaft. Because the air that is partially oxygen-deficienct and CO2-enriched will be denser than atmospheric air and so will have pooled in the bottom of the shaft.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Very cool, Mr Thomas. My little drop has turned out to be a very educational experience.
Gotta love this place.
Thanks
CFR 1910.
Confined Space and Permit required confined space.
Never enter a confined space with makeshift rig, no monitor for O2 saturation, hazardous vapors etc... Electricians who enter manhole have specific requirement for spaces as shallow as 3 ft! Heavier than air vapor accumilate and sit in a space and you drop in it....
They have to run a fan and blow or exhaust for a specific amountr of time and then lower a monitor to verify safe atmosphere before attemting to enter and that is strict even for their special waivers..
You risked your life and got lucky,
Entrapment is another issue altogether, colapse etc....
Don't try that again... any "well" guy will tell you the same
"Entrapment is another issue altogether, colapse etc...."
Worst on-site safety issue I heard of was from a geologist a I worked with. For a previous employer, he'd done down-hole logging. Which is to say HE went down the hole. In a bucket, on a cable, down a 36" well drilled through soil. Rock would be one thing, but soil?! How often have I had a 8" well collapse on the PVC casing?! Dozens of times.
He was relating how very small a 36" circle of sky looks when it 75 feet above you and everything else is black.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Another firefighter here, putting in his .02.
Bad idea. Confined space, by definition. No idea of air quality. ( yes, probably ok, but when it's my #### on the line, I want better than probably) No professional fire dept. would go down there and perform a confined space rescue without scba unless air monitoring to the bottom and every place in between had already been done.You got lucky, and so did your town's firefighters. Be safe & Don't do this again.Guys that do stuff like this, and THEN ask for advice are job security. :)
Bing
The most common cause of death among workers in confined spaces is suffocation due to lack of oxygen. A lack of oxygen is totally undetectable. The first organ affected is the brain (it has only 5% of body weight but uses 15% of the oxygen), which prevents the victim from being aware they are passing out. In many cases well-meaning rescuers climb down to retrieve a passed out co-worker and die themselves, too. That's one reason why OSHA spells out specific procedures for entry into confined spaces.
Oxygen is remove by rusting, so steel tanks are nearly guaranteed to be oxygen deficient. Your well could also be, due to biological action. Additionally, CO2 is heavier than air, so the danger increases the deeper you go.
In an industrial setting no one would be allowed to go into a space such as your well without conducting a test for oxygen level prior to entry.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19960613.html