hi folks. i have a billing problem. client’s got several bids to remodel their kitchen. they were all too high. they decided to go it on their own. they asked me to do the carpentry. i have known them for years and agreed. wrote up a bid for removing one wall , installing three windows etc. they contacted all the other subs. i did give them some names of guys i have worked with. the carpentry went smoothly. when it came to the interior window trim they asked for 5 1/2 wide sills.ok.the client picked out the appliances and fixtures. floor was installed, cab installed, counter was started. when the installer got to the sink he told them their faucet would not fit with the sill. the new faucet has a 13/4″ barrel rising 6″ above the surface of the sink. the sill was an 1/8″ too wide. the counter top is 12*12 tiles, the installer wanted a min of 1 1/2″ in front of the sink. they called me at another job. i went and trimmed the sill. left them a bill and went home. couple weeks pass. i call them as the check did not arrive. she informs me that they did expect to pay for the job as it was part of my bid. she said all the other subs that had to come back did not charge her and i should not either. now the cab installer put a wooden sub splash up(no i do not know why) and covered every outlet and switch. the frig cab also had a back on it and he covered up the outlet and water service for the frig with it. soyes, he had to go back. the 3/4″ sub counter was installed with a 1/2′ bow ( covered up some debris) so he had to it do it over. i would not expect them to bill for fixing these mistakes. (other aspects of this job had already led me to the decision that i would not work for these folks again.) i have never had a client tell me that they did not want to pay a bil before. was i wrong expecting them too? thanx., paul.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Old masonry may look tough, but the wrong mortar can destroy it—here's how to choose the right mix for lasting repairs.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
I wanna make sure I have it correct.
They asked you to make the sill that width... it didn't work out the way they wanted. they called you back to adjust the sill. Right?
If so... you were correct to bill it. That is one of the perils of being a HO Contractor. the stuff with the cabinet guy is irrelevent... even if he would have done extras and didn't charge them (instead of repairs as you describe). He runs his business... you run yours.
Your customer is confusing repair with an extra. Have you explained the difference?
paul... i've had customers tell me they didn't think they should pay for extra work..
i wrote them a letter explaining my position.. and that if thye ever expected me to work for them again , they would have the pay the bill...
they did.. two years later they hired me to build them a deck...
another one.. got me to fix something two years after we had built her house.. she wouldn't pay either.. i wrote her the same basic letter .. and i've never been bothered by her again.. she can get someone else.. i want customers who appreciate our company.. if they don't , i certainly don't want anything to do with themMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thank you fellas. i did explain the diff between a repair and extra but she was not having any of it. i think a letter is a great idea and i appreciate it. maybe if she sees it on paper it will make sense to her. thanks again. paul
The HO is saving money by being their own GC but they need to realize that some responsibility and risk goes with that job. They told you to make the sill that size and you di. Then they wanted you to make it another size - that's extra work initiated by them so they get to pay for it.
The other casees, the extra work was initiated by mistakes of the subs, in your case, the extra was resultant of a mistake or omission by the GC. So they get to pay. The bill stands.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I completely agree with Rich. It's an apples and oranges comparison to put you and the others, with circumstances, in the same lot. They chose to play GC, they chose the materials, they chose the details. You were there as their sub to do things the way they wanted. As I read it, with the details you gave, you're in the right. And I think at this point I'd approach it (now that you've had the phone conversation) with a formal letter explaining that return work, at no fault of your own, is billable time and you expect payment within X timeframe. Polite, but on the firm side.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
on a humourous note apples and oranges are very similar see this:
http://www.improb.com/airchives/paperair/volume1/v1i3/air-1-3-apples.html
This is a perfect lesson for you to begin using Change Order forms. This way the ectra work is agreed to in writing and they know beforehand that it is an extra, at an additional cost.
Many times HO acting as their own GC don't understand that the agreement with subs isn't "keep doing it until everything fits together as I think it should, but won't take the time or don't have the knowledge to give you the proper instruction from the start."
GC learn their trade at a cost. When things go poorly due to their mess-ups they pay for it. If a HO wants to be the GC they have to accept the burden of the learning curve and get their checkbooks out.
Be understanding in your letter and explain that though you appriciate the HO's efforts and frustrations working with limited understanding and knowledge of the complexities involved in renovations, you should not be expected to share the burden.
In the meantime, start drawing up a Change Order form. Always have 10 in your vehicle or breifcase.
F
file a lien
Sounds like she is determined to come in under the other 'too high' bids at your expense. I think you should stick by your guns and do the letter. If she doesn't still doesn't pay it's up to you whether it is worth the lien. To make a point I'd say yes, but if it takes too much time away from other jobs to file then you may end up eating it. Don't worry about referrals from her - you don't want more customers like her. And I also think you should apologize to your friends for giving this customer their names ;)
I'm only a homeowner, so take me with a grain of salt (and/or a shot of tequila).
Man oh man, as an HO/GC I've come to see the "HO" as an abreviation for "Hold On" and "GC" as an abreviation for "Get Cash." As the GC I try to make sure my subs are always treated fairly by the HO even when it makes him bleed a little.
Now if I could just get that dang HO to quite changing his mind my job as GC would be so much easier!<G>
Sorry to hear your client doesn't play fair. In your situation, I'd bill the GC for your labor and the HO for your attorney and collection fees.
Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
I am in agreement that you should be paid for this. However. Didn't that subject come up when they called you to have the sill reworked ? Would things be different now if you had told them up front that they will have to pay for this because it was their error ?
carpenter in transition
Paul you should have started out by informing them that you would be glad to come back and fix the problem but you had performed your work as requested and to make changes to it will require further charges do to the time it will take to dismantle what was already assembled, And if they had a problem with that then you should`nt have made a move because your part of the job had already been completed and shame on them if they did`nt want to pay for your time it would have been no sweat of your back .......
you and tim are right.while it never occured to me that payment would be a problem i wont make that mistake again. thanks guys for all the response. paul.
Edited 8/12/2004 11:55 pm ET by paulg