I’m going to be laying 450 SF of pre-finished 3½” red oak flooring for a condo refresh. This is a special type of pre-finish flooring manufacturered by Heritage, and is not stocked pre-stained in the various colours available. (It has a rustic finish; the pores are not filled with the varnish so that scratches won’t show up as easily as with a full-varnish finish.) You order what you need, they put it through the stain & varnish process and you get it two weeks later.
The manufacturer is recommending adding 25% for waste on this product. I find that number very high. (For this job, that comes out to about 10% of the total bill.)
I usually calculate 10% waste for flooring when it’s a big, open area; 15% when it’s cut up with lots of jogs and corners and so forth.
Comments, anyone??
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice….
Replies
I agree 25 percent is high, if it is rustic on finish or even the wood and that is the look, waste should be close to zero. I find with large floors I have just a small bucket of scraps at jobs end. If it is a straight forward room I would go ten. But since the product sounds semi custom I would explain that to the home owner to see if they want extra for possible repairs in the future and they need to pay for it.
Wallyo
Edited 9/3/2008 12:58 am ET by wallyo
Yep, the job should have been bid that way.
I'm in the middle of doing the take-off and writing up the estimate right now, which is what made that 25% figure pop up and smack me in the face last night. Plugged the numbers into my estimate program and the total came out way higher than I'd guesstimated while doing my 'rough'. Okay, where's the hidden fat in this one I ask myself....
As has been pointed out, if I don't order enough, I could be in the cräpper when it comes to matching the first run of flooring. Secondarily, this is a vacation rental condo, and I'm gonna have to take it off-line for two to three weeks even if everything goes well (there's other stuff besides the floor). The owners aren't gonna appreciate it if I order short and they can't rent it for an additional two weeks while I get some more made, duh....
I've decided I'm gonna have to speak to the mfgr's rep in person before I order this stuff.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
How is the newer truck doing for you?
Rides like a Cadillac; pulls like a Caterpillar. And drinks very little for all that....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
DinosaurI don't mean to get off topic, but the Cadillac part. We took a trip this summer three adults two kids(8 &10) Boise to 250 mile south of San Francisco. My sister was all worried about the five of us in the extended cab I kept saying we will be fine. When it was over she said that she could not believe how comfortable it was inside and how it did not drive or ride like a truck, that it was very smooth and rode better then some cars. She drove some and sat in back and in front.I am glad you are liking yours.Wallyo
I agree with you. I'd tell the client what you would normally purchase and let them make the call on any additional flooring. From your discripition, if you had to order more material, I doubt the finishes would match.
whether it's random length or uniform length stock, I would think that almost all of the off-cuts would be able to be used as first piece of the next course or be so short that they wouldn't amount to 3% of the length of the course, so the usual 10% allowance should suffice.
Maybe the mfr is thinking spare stock for future repairs, or are they trying to boost sales?
BruceT
Edited 9/3/2008 5:50 pm by brucet9
Finally got ahold of the mfgr's rep this afternoon and he told me this is classed as a 'rustic' product...which means it's full of knots, including open knots. Meaning there's boards with holes in 'em, duh. Yes, some people like that for some applications but I felt justifiably annoyed on my client's behalf because of the three store-display samples the dealer loaned them, not one of them contained a single board with even one knot in it.
'Oh, but it says it's rustic in our brochure!' exclaimed the rep woundedly when I mentioned this to him politely.
'Oh, but people don't read that stuff!' I exclaimed right back at him. 'Men pay for the stuff, but their wives pick it out. And all the women look at is the samples. All the guy looks at is the price tag....'
I found my client some better stuff for less dough, and will be sending him new samples by Fedex tomorrow. Gotta go pull a piece of trim out of his condo to send with it too, so his DW can compare the colours....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The clients are lucky they have you looking out for them.
BruceT
It's a two-way street....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Job well done Dino! I have always thought of rustic and cabin grade to be rough and full of knot sap wood etc never though of it to be knot holes. Don't you just love paying for something that will be thrown in the garbage. If the sample board did not show knot holes and I ordered it, and it came with knot holes I would dump it in their show room and dispute my visa charge.Wallyo
Edited 9/4/2008 10:14 am ET by wallyo
That was the unstated point of my polite comment to the rep. I think he got the message.
Now I'm waiting for the HO to get back to me with their decision. I sent in the estimates last night; three different options. Their original choice (pre-varnished red oak w/knot holes @ 25% scrap factor) was two grand more than the least expensive option (5½" commercial-grade oiled larch). 3¼" residential-grade oiled larch came out right smack in the middle: a grand more than one; a grand less than the other. So he's got a fair range of product to choose from.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Just curious how much is this running a square foot, in your Canadian dollars?Wallyo
$3.60 for the commercial-grade 5¼ larch; $4.89 on promo discount for the residential-grade 3¼ larch; $6 for the red oak.
The commercial grade larch is packaged with 9"-29" lengths; the residential grade stuff contains 12"-72" lengths. The larch is factory oiled, not varnished; gives a low-gloss finish that can be waxed or 'mop-n-glo'ed. The red oak is a pre-varnished 'rustic' finish, ie: the varnish doesn't fill the pores so it presents a 'used' look when it's new.
They're all milled with a micro-vee t&g joint.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 9/4/2008 1:08 pm ET by Dinosaur
I am surprised the oak is so much!
Your supplier's prices seem high. Out here on the west coast, I can buy premium Dubeau (Quebec distributor, Chinese manufacture, great quality) prefinished oak for $6. My own floor is Dubeau comm. birch, which means it has a fair bit of colour and chatoyance but no flaws, and I paid $3.25. Finish is 25 yr. aluminum oxide modified urethane.
The mfgrs of the 'Heritage' line are charging a premium for 'aging' the stuff and sending you what under any other label would be NG boards. Clever way to get rid of #### and make more dough for less work, but some people aren't patient enough to wait for time to do its work and gotta have that fake antiquey look right flippin' now. Sigh....
Standard res.-grade pre-finished HW flooring (3¼x¾x12-60"; 5 coats of high-gloss polyU) goes from $4.95/SF on up. Maple, black birch, white oak, sometimes red oak. I can't stand the stuff because with that high-gloss finish, those micro-vees jump right outta the floor and smack ya in the eye. Looks like a bloody jigsaw puzzle instead of a floor.
But the prefinished stuff is now selling for less than unfinished mill-run flooring of the same species and cut. Makes selling the real McCoy a hard job....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Out here we have people taking pinebeetle killed soft pine, staining it to hide the blue blotching and selling it as premium flooring to the ecologically minded. There is one born every minute. I've found the AlOxide finish quite acceptable, it is between satin and semigloss and durable enough that sandpaper hardly touches it.
I agree 25% is too high. Just finished a pre-finished Bella-wood oak floor today. Total square footage was 160. Homeowner bought 10 20 sq.ft.
boxes. Ended up just using a few boards from the ninth box, the tenth box will hopefully be returned or used for a future renovation. ( I hope.) And yes hardly any waste at all, scraps would've fit in a small cardboard box-10% waste max.
I may be the only one thinking 25% waste seems reasonable. In many of the prefinished floors I've seen there are a large number of shorts and off color pieces, and if you add in the defects with "rustic" anything, I'd order at least an extra 25%.
Best of luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Got to disagree with you on that one Don I have never ran into any wood floor that required a waste of 25%. If some one wants something that looks perfect in color they should install Pergo. I have even relaid used floors Didn't even have 25% there maybe 15% but not 25.
That depends on what you're after. Like I said, shorts and off color pieces can really add up. It depends how short and how off color your client wants. Sure the floor can be put down as it comes out of the box with little waste, but that's not what I'm talking about.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
If someone wants no shorts or off color then they should go Pergo. Wood is not perfect but even still there are alway places shorts and off colors can be used to minimize waste; closets, under the fridge, under the stove, along a wall where furniture is to be placed, the edges of a room where a 9" piece is needed to finish a row, etc. Still I have never ran into a situation where 25% waste was needed if I did I would bring it back to the supplier after opening the first bundle. If someone wants no off color go Select that does not mean no shorts though.WallyoDon do you have a electrician you would recommend in Boise?
Edited 9/5/2008 4:35 pm ET by wallyo
I agree that normally that much waste isn't common. Often I'm getting the normal consumer grade (most popular and least expensive) product offered at the big boxes and sorting through it rather than spending more $$ on the higher grade product. In the end it has been a little better for the client and myself, but now that I explain it, what I'm doing and the original conversation is a bit different. Most times it makes the most sense to simply buy what you want. :-)
Don do you have a electrician you would recommend in Boise?
I sure do, which one depends on the nature of the project. What do you need done?
Mitch (All Electric, 342-5880) is the most competent and professional electrican I've ever come across in the trades and is my go-to guy for most projects, especially the more technical ones. He has a good reputation with the inspectors and clients really like him and his side kick.
There are a few others that I'll use depending on how closely I'm working with them, but their quirks make them hard to recommend without knowing what type of project you have.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
DON Long story I will try and be brief, I have used several electricians over the years you find a good one then something happens, they move on etc. I have had one I had been working with for a year I knew him over 2 years prior, he dated a friend. After they broke up I started using him, when I got in a bind once, he helped out I gave him more work.I also manage some apartments for an out of state friend, there is a four plex that needed a service up grade. So I put the two of them together, he started the work, put the mast in, ground rods, 4 pack base and one panel for one unit. The owner paid him up front for materials plus a bit, not the whole bill, I advised him not to give the second draw but the owner did. The job is not done the last time he was there was July, he won't return calls from any of us, we had a third person call him. sent letters. You know where I am going, we need some one to step in the middle of things, who's not afraid of an old building, who is willing to look at what has been done and deal with it, not say you need to tear it all out. As much as I know of elec I feel what is there meets code and standards, may be a few small things like nail plates that need attention, at this point I could finish it, except I have no license. A permit was taken out but it expired in june the head inspector said to talk to the office they may let that extend since no inspections were made. So that is the mess we have, at least he has most of the materials there; the other three panels, breakers, some wire, good thing he does not have the key or a copy, I offered him one he refused it.Sorry to get off subject or hope i was not to rambling.Wallyo
Mitch is the guy you want and you won't ever have any questions if he is going to finish the job in a timely manner or not because he's a great finisher in addition to a starter.
If there is a potential hang up he will most likely ask for a field consultation with the inspector so their's no wasted time trying to read his mind as to what he will and won't accept.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
In many of the prefinished floors I've seen there are a large number of shorts and off color pieces
The manager of my preferred flooring supplier (a chain but not a big box; all this outfit sells is floors--carpet, tile, wood) gave me his rundown on how it works today when I went in for some sample boards to ship the HO. I found his description very interesting, because when I learned about flooring grades, there was no such thing as 'pre-finished' or 'pre-varnished' flooring: you had a choice of clear, select, or mill-run. Period.
Today, he told me, there are four grades generally available from open stock: 1, 2, 3, and 4. Clear and Select--if they exist at all--are special order, cost a fortune, and take forever to get. Descriptive terms (such a 'country', 'rustic', 'elegance', etc.) are where the buyer can see them; the actual grade number is often printed in small, smeary type that is hard to find and harder to read.
Max and minimum lengths in each bundle or box are determined by the intended installer: pros or DIYers. "Builders' quality" or "commercial" contains more shorts and shorter long boards because a pro is expected to be able to use all those tricks Wallyo mentioned: put shorts in closets, around the edges of a room where furniture will sit on it, etc. DIY quality (called "standard" or "residential" and selling for about 20% more) contains longer shorts and longer longs because the mfgr knows the DIYer will likely just lay everything as it comes outta the box.
Grade 1&2 flooring is much like No. 1&2 framing lumber: no dead knots; a limited number of live knots, and no squirrely grain, bananas, or hockey sticks. Grade 3 contains a higher number of live knots, some off-color, and some difficult grain.
Grade 4, he told me, contains everything they don't put in the boxes of 1, 2, or 3....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
He told you straight cabin rustic are not grades just marketing names. The new one out on the marked is "Hand scraped" which if what they are selling as hand scraped were used in King Louie's Palaces, he would of had the scrapers heads. Scraping was the method of sanding the floor before electric sanding machines, there is a famous block print entitled the Scrapers. They use cabinet scrapers and hand planed the floor on there hand and knees.The scraped stuff on the market makes it look like the scrapers drank too much it is wavy and uneven a insult to those that hand scrape beautiful intricate ballroom floors by hand. I would like to know if what is marketed as such is done by hand.Wallyo
Edited 9/6/2008 12:32 am ET by wallyo
Someone started talking about the pricing of prefinished HW.
I was looking at a bill yesterday. (normally I go off bids for the whole job). Anyway, I'm paying $4.95 a Sq Ft for Bruce 2.25" (I think it is) prefinished 3/4" thick oak for the material and $1.30 a ft for labor (USD). To me, the labor sounds cheap, but the material sounds overpriced. Without getting into what people think about Bruce flooring, is that an OK deal, overpriced, or what? BTW - there is no tax on that - I guess they roll it into the price of the material. Here, labor is not taxable.
Matt the 4.95 sound a bit high but did it have to be ordered or was it in stock? That is the bigger question. It is amazing how much price flies up on something when it has to be ordered, sometimes freight get rolled in to the square price. Went to price some tile for a repair job square foot was about 4.00, only need two square by the time tax freight and an energy surcharge was rolled in 15-16 dollars for the 2 sq on their truck.
also was the installer marking it up from 3.95 to 4.95 for his trouble?The install price sounds right on.Wallyo
As nearly as I can tell, the way this flooring company does business, nothing is in stock however they get a truck (s?) in daily from a distributor (s?) so it seems that everything is ordered, but nothing is more than a few days out. As nearly as I can tell, it's a fairly high volume operation, with probably a dozen installers - all of whom are piece workers. They even have a few guys who only do shoe molding. My old salesmen there (who was recently laid off due to poor market conditions) told me that they don't mark up labor, only materials. To me, they are kinda high priced, but the reasons I stay with them is that 1) they are very reliable with reasonable quality workmanship, 2) they have good after the sale service, 3) they sell/install most all types of flooring including tile and stone, and 4) they do have a showroom if customers don't like the flooring samples I have on hand. Probably in order of importance. Take away either #s 1 or 2 and I get another floor company.
Are you getting the pricing from a flooring showroom? If so, I would be willing to bet that they make their money on the material and the install is either break even or lower margin.The price does seem high for 2-1/4" Bruce. Does it matter what the finish is? We can get the more common finishes like Gunstock for less than others.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA