I’ve got a question for any plumbers and/ or contractors out there. I’m building a combination shop and garage which needed variances from the city because of height issues and space, which were approved. I asked to have a toilet and a shop sink in the building which they agreed to, with the understanding that the building would not be used for living space or commercial use. I got four bids from different contractors (and their respective plumbers) all of whom talked about being able to tie in to the existing waste line at the back of the existing house. Now, after footings have been poured the city is insisting that this is never the way it is done and I have to tie in either at the front of the house , or at the street which could be as much as an additional $15,000. I’m not going over the number of fixture units for 4″ pipe. The city doesn’t want to budge. Has anyone run into anything like this? I’m really surprised that 4 plumbers never brought this up as even a remote possibility in any of their bids-
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I have never run into this problem but code problems which increase costs and sometimes completely prohibit projects happen all the time. The codes are constantly evolving and local requirements are often quite different. This is why we try to maintain a close relationship with many building inspectors and why we like to have them look over the plans at the earliest possible time. No architect, gc, or plumber is going to know it all. And so what if one did? You'd still have to pay the extra $15k. Sometimes the building official will find a loophole or, as they like to say, an alternative interpretation. If not, you will have to suck it up.
i know a guy who got into about the same sitiation for his garage. he ended up putting in a 500 gal. holding tank and having it pumped out every year or so-not that much goes in when it's in a shop.
Out of curiosity, where are you located? I'm in the planning stages for a similar structure. Hadn't even considered this possibility. Ouch!
I'm in St Paul MN. The explanation I'm getting is that there is the possibility of explosive substances going down a garage drain and then into the house creating the possibility of explosion. Seems pretty remote to me but I'm just a cabinetmaker....
The other issue is that if I do have to go out the street I'll be endangering one of the last old elm trees in the neighborhood. As a woodworker, I'll walk back into the house to use the toilet and clean brushes rather than chance the tree coming down.
There are big restrictions on garage drains. I think that floor drains are often required to have a sort of grease trap to catch oil/gas that might get in there. And they often won't let you install a drain and run it to daylight either.
I'm in Minneapolis, and my next door neighbor is building a garage in his back yard right now that sounds very similar. It has car stalls on the ground floor, with a second story for his wife's studio space. He's putting in a bathroom on the first level that will tie into the house sewer system like you have planned, and as far as I know the inspector's signed off on it. The one difference I can think of is that it sounds like you have a wash sink right in the garage area, while he put his in a separate room. Maybe you could talk to the inspector about that, see what they say if it's separated from the actual garage space.
I assume you don't have a floor drain -- that would be tough to get by the city with residential constuction, even if there was a grease trap in the line.
It sounds like exactly the same situation
The sink is in a completely separate room. I had a floor drain planned but would be happy to give it up if it would help- Maybe there is a difference between Mpls and St Paul codes. I would love to know how your neighbor got them to sign off on it!
I'll see if I can track him down after work tonight and I'll ask him about it.
"The sink is in a completely separate room. I had a floor drain planned but would be happy to give it up if it would help- Maybe there is a difference between Mpls and St Paul codes. I would love to know how your neighbor got them to sign off on it!"
I talked to my neighbor just now, and he said the city had no problem at all with how he's hooking up the drain for the bath in his garage/studio. All they were worried about is that he made sure the lateral pipe had the proper slope (I was wrong earlier, the bath will be on the second floor of this building.) It runs from the garage to the back of the house, then ties into the existing stack inside. He did have to jump through some hoops to get some variances, but that was because of the size and height of the structure and not for the plumbing.
If I had to guess, I'd say the St. Paul inspectors don't like your floor drain. Maybe you should see if they'll relent on the sink/toilet connection if you leave it out. Then again, St. Paul and Minneapolis always seem to do things differently.
If you only wanted a toilet, you could go with an Incinolet (electrical incinerating toilet requiring no waste pipe) or composting toilet. However, to get by with no waste pipe for the sink, you would probably need a rather large holding tank (I have seen a few sinks that empty into 5 gallon buckets that had been in service for quite a while - I doubt that any of them were originally designed that way, however...) I think the Incinolet goes for about $1500. There are a number of compact composting toilets.
Incinolet: http://www.incinolet.com/
Sun-Mar composting toilet: http://www.sun-mar.com/2002/productlist.htm
Propane incincerating toilet: http://www.realgoods.com/renew/shop/product.cfm?dp=2400&ts=1044806
"I'm in St Paul MN. The explanation I'm getting is that there is the possibility of explosive substances going down a garage drain and then into the house creating the possibility of explosion. Seems pretty remote to me but I'm just a cabinetmaker.... "
Give up the floor drain and say nonsense after that . If you have any trouble after sacrificing the floor drain , call the state plumbing inspectors. They will have a word with the authority , but they will back him if possible . They have to play by the book though. Also ask for a verification of the code for the turn down. It has to be written in black and white in your state plumbing code. Black and white .
Tim Mooney
With out reading the other posts , Ill answer as Im an inspector dealing with this kind of thing a lot.
You are not really clear about the front of the house thing. I assume the main sewer line is in front of the house and you are wanting to tie into the existing plumbing under the house ?
I also assume the main sewer is in front ?
Not being clear about the above isnt really a big deal as it is the price you mention .
I will also assume they will aloow you to trench to the fron of the house and tie to the existing line . [your line]
The other option is an additional sewer tap.
Niether one of these options are any where near the price you mention . 3.00 per foot for 3 inch sewer is the going rate here plus connection charge. A tap fee here is 300.00 dollars. I dont get it .
Tim Mooney
Hi Tim,
The inspector said I wouldn't have to go all the way to the street, I could tie in where the line comes out of the front of the house . This would save the cost of having to dig in the street. The other cost would involve a lot of trenching and replacement of a driveway. It would be a LOT easier to tie in to the exsisting plumbing in the back of the house
What I think they are citing, from the ST Paul code is- (a)
Sec. 76.25. Connections off street line prohibited.
(a) No permit shall be issued to any person to tap or connect with any sewer off the line of the street upon which property sought to be drained is situated.
(b) Whenever it is proposed to connect a building or other structure to a sewer which in the opinion of the chief engineer of the City of Saint Paul is either inadequate in size or not deep enough to properly drain the premises sought to be connected, a permit may be issued to connect with the nearest available sewer.
(Code 1956, § 230.29)
from one of the previous posts it doesn't look like they have this provision across the river in Minneapolis!
As an inspector, would you see any way to grant a variance on this? or compelling arguments (like the possibility of losing trees?)
Thanks!
No variance on a code call . Seems from the codes you listed they are in full right in the decision. No problem with that becuse he is letting you tap in the front yard not having to tap to the sewer under the street. They arent charging you any money to talkl about .
My problem is with the cost you quoted . Thats a lot of money .
Tim Mooney
"Tell 'em, fine, you won't do it.
Stub it in.
Put it in after the final inspection even if you have to hand dig it by the light of the moon."
I've thought about it- although after asking all these questions down at the bldg dept I'm sure they will be looking very closely-