Water Levels: I’ve seen this topic before, but I unsuccessfully tried to make one the other day, and thought I’d ask you guys……….
I used 1/4″ inside diameter 20′ section of clear plastic tubing I found at the home center. The first time I used it, it seemed promising, but just yesterday I was checking corners for siding and found out that it was off just a little. My guess is I need tubing with a bigger inside diameter. How do you guys make a water level?
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Bubbles in one leg can throw it off. So mixing a small amount of rubbing alcohol into the water before filling the tube helps. I put in a bit of food coloring, too.
Temeprature variations can also throw it off. If one leg is in the sun and another in shade, that could cause a small error.
It was off almost 1/8" with the two legs side by side. 1/4" tubing is OK, though?
1/4" tubing is too small. You are getting air bubbles because the tube is constricted. Go up to 1/2" tubing,you will see that another benefit of a larger tubing is the level comes to a rest sooner. I have 3/8" and 1/2" water levels.The 1/2" works best. If you do use food coloring,use it very sparingly. The food coloring stains the tubing and eventually you cannot see the water level anymore.Use just enough to faintly color the water.In 20'-0" I would start with one drop of coloring.
mike
In my experience........
You also need a resevoir at one end to "temper" the unit.
It is not "broken". I can almost guarantee that the water is at the same level at both ends. I will not offer a 100% guarantee since the whole global warming fiasco started.
What is probably happening - is that as you pull the tubing to a greater lenght, it changes the average elevation of the tubing. That will effectively raise the level of the water at both ends.
No different than if you stood in the same spot and raised both ends simultaneously - it would still be level, just at a different hieght.
I have a resevoir at one end of mine that serves as a base station. small diameter tubing will help with this varience. The larger the resevoir - the higher the accuracy.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
That's been my experience too...mine has a gallon bucket on one end of the tube. Procedure works something like: fill bucket, drain the line, set the bucket on chair or level table and your good to go. Works 100% of the time and guaranteed accurate. Cheap too!
"I have a resevoir at one end of mine that serves as a base station. small diameter tubing will help with this varience. The larger the resevoir - the higher the accuracy."
This is picking at hairs, but a small clarification.
The volume of the reservoir does not matter, it's the area of the top level of the water in the reservoir that "tempers" the elevation change issues.
For instance, if you had a 1/2" line and used a 3" PVC pipe as the reservoir, the surface area ratio is 1:36 (the 3" pvc pipe has 36 times more area than the 1/2" tubing), so any fluctuation on the business end of the water level would only show up 1/9 of that amount.
However, if you used a 1/2" line and piece of 48" culvert pipe as the reservoir, the ratio would be 1:9216. So, you could be sloppy with the end of the water level, and your actions would likely not have a perceptible effect.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon I have a water level but it does not have a reservoir on the end. How does it work and how do you use it with the water level? I'm trying to picture what you guys are talking about but I can't seem to figure it out.
I didn't read every post, but had a thought to add -I'm under the impression that if part of the hose/tubing and is in the sun and part of it is in the shade that can throw it off.
Whether a man winds up with a nest egg, or a goose egg, depends a lot on the kind of chick he marries.
Ron, thats what they are saying but i don't buy into it.
theres no way it could make a significant difference,
and besides our world of LEVEL as we know it is calibrated using water.
there is error in everything but i can't imagine it to be enough to fuss over
It could certainly make a difference, but someone would have to run some calcs to figure out how much. Probably in the neighborhood of 1/16" for moderately extreme cases.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Just to pick more nits, I think truely level is best measured as perpendicular to plumb. The Egyptians had plumb bobs and triangles, but no gardenn hoses after all.
View ImageSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Boss,
With a long small diameter tube level, I have seen a half inch difference in levels between the two ends when the only possible explanation was: one end in the sun - one end in the shade.
Another time, in the winter, we were using a water level filled with windshield wahser fluid. worked fine. We spilled some, topped it up with another brand - which turned out to be a different density. There was over a half inch of difference between the two ends.
Like I said above, these things are as reliable as gravity, but they aren't necessarily accurate.
Ron
Vinyl hose diameter expands and contracts with temperature changes. It also stretches if it is warm out and pulled very hard.
I use a few drops of Jet Dry (dishwasher drying aid) in a gallon jug reservoir; tape the business end of the hose to a 6' story pole (helps keep the water from spilling) and use wooden dowel for a hose plug when not in use or when moving around rough terrain.
Edit: I use 5/6" hose.
Edited 6/5/2009 7:20 pm ET by levelone
Are you asking how a reservoir works?
Here as some good links:Fastfacts.com and Buildeazy.com.View Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Ahh, Thanks.
Thanks for the pic, Jon,I use a 1-gallon "Sun Tea" jar, with a 1/2"tube coming out of the spigot.A light-duty tie-down strap with a cam buckle allows me to easily position the reservoir a bit above my actual line.Then I drain the water in the tubing out into a second container, saving it. (IIRC, I used food coloring, and it has worked fine. Don't know why, but no mold growth, and I haven't changed the fluid in years).Draining the tube like this is the secret: you eliminate all bubbles, and equalize the temperature at the same time.After draining, I pour some of the drained liquid back into the reservoir slowly, until the business end of the system says I'm exactly at my reference mark.Using a reservoir gives you a constant, and allows you to work alone. It also allows you to go back and see if you still match up to that original mark. If not, pour your spare fluid back in, drain the tubing again, and refill the reservoir until you're back on the mark.Another way to get a really crisp line is to tape a 1x1 to your tube, with the reservoir level a couple of inches low. Holding the top edge of the 1x right on your desired line, mark it at the point lower down which is right at the center of the meniscus. Then move it around the room/building, aligning the meniscus with the low mark, and tracing the top edge of the 1x to make a straight, crisp line.AitchKay
Take a fairly heavy wall plastic jug or a bucket--this is your reservoir--and drill a 3/8' hole through the side near the bottom. You can now install a tire valve stem (valve core removed) in the hole and it won't leak around that seal. Force your tubing over the end of the valve stem.
Thanks for the idea Bill.
Yup
fifty
Posts
you
must
be
board !
You're implying he's a blockhead? Maybe if he does something brave he'll turn into a real boy.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
:)
Just amazed there is so much to say about a water level :)
Ever use one? Which type? Any problems? What fluids? Any tricks? Or what?AitchKay
"Our relationship was one based upon secrecy" -Capt BeefHeart- *in response to a question after Zappa passed away.
In that case, my lips are sealed.AitchKay
Me too. it's amazing how much we can over complicate something.
"it's amazing how much we can over complicate something."Especially if we want things to end up level, as opposed to simply taking a false reading, and happily checking it off of the list.Sure, there's a bit of duplication in this thread, but it's all good info.So how about citing 12 examples of "overcomplication" from this thread that do not lead to a better finished product, or, if you can't, quit whining.Oh, I almost forgot:Please.AitchKay
Check out my photo threads there bub, I can hang with the best of them.
Not cocky just confident! and have been paid hansomly for proving my self!
Not whining just merely stating facts when you complain about the best (in this case water) not being perfect deal with it or find something better!
guess what water has been the basis of what we as humans concieve as level for years so the ball is in your court. invent something better.
A gyro is more accurate than water, esp. in Aeronautics.
Just saying.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Not sure what you mean about complaining. I descibed easy ways to deal with both bubbles in the line and temperature differentials, plus a good easy way to get a crisper, sharper line.All tools have their idiosyncrasies, and usually, if you're light on your feet, there's an easy way to deal with them.But you might not figure it all out on your first day with one. That's where BT comes in, to help shorten the learning curve for those with less experience in a particular area, or with a particular tool.So there's no need to sneer at a useful thread -- this is what BT is about.BTW, that trick with the 1x for marking a more accurate line works with a laser, too. It's more accurate to hold a mark up to the center of a beam than it is to stick a pencil in and try to mark it. So I set my laser a couple of inches below where I want my line, hold the mark on the 1x to the center of the beam, then trace the square-cut top of the stick. I can eyeball the center of a 1/8" beam to plus-or-minus 1/64, so it beats complaining about how fat laser beam are.AitchKay
O.k. let me clarify,I was not making light of this thread inparticular, but things of life in general,when i spoke about over complicating things.
and i would never make fun of someone for asking a question. sorry to have rubbed you the wrong way.
BT is great even if we can't agree.
Gotcha. I was just surprised to be told I was complaining about a system I'm quite comfortable with, and prefer over Hi-Tech in many applications:Tomorrow, I'm setting up the laser first thing to check out how much a deck has sagged. It's built out over a steep drop, and I'm afraid that the Sonotubes were set into the fluffy fill behind the tiered retaining walls, instead of deep into the hillside itself.The laser will be quick and fast, but if I had to turn an outside corner, and exceed the laser's line-of-sight limitations, I'd whip out the old water level in a heartbeat. A second setup is a hassle, and is asking for error to creep in.AitchKay
You don't have to have a reservoir, but without one it's a bit harder to use the level, especially single-handed.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I know.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Be sure too that you are reading either at the top or the bottom of the meniscus. It doesn't matter which, but keep it the same for accuracy.
You just wanted to say "meniscus".
I made one with a garden hose and various fittings on each end to which i attached clear vinyl tubing. Look in the drip irrigation aisle for hose-thread x tubing adaptors, is the easy way. When you're done, you unscrew both ends and the hose goes back in the garden.
Couple of years ago I bought a set of thingies at Lowes that screwed on the end of a garden hose to make a water level. The thingies were clear plastic semi-rigid tubing, open one end, garden hose fitting the other end. Actually I think the "open" end had a screw on cap so you could coil it up without losing the water in the hose. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
1/4" is a bit on the small side. And you need to be sure to eliminate all the bubbles. Generally you'll have to fill the tube and let it set for several hours for bubbles to appear, then work the bubbles out. Also helps to put the water in a pitcher or pan overnight before filling the tube.
I siphoned the water through the hose, no bubbles. I bought a bigger diameter hose today (3/8"). I hope this works because the only level on that job is a 4'.
Increasing the diameter of the tube will help in a couple of ways. One is less restriction and less interference from mini bubbles, but more significantly is that surface tension is less likely to throw things off.With the small tube the bottom of the water meniscus is U shaped, with no flat part. Slight differences between ends in how much surface tension is clinging to the sides will raise or lower the bottom of the meniscus slightly. With a larger diameter the meniscus will be flattened, and the bottom becomes a more reliable reference point.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Surface tention of the water is messing you up! add 3 drops of dish washing detergent to a bowl of water and fill the tube from there. Better to use 3/8" tube.
Real soap breaks surface tension better than detergent.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The first time I used the level was for a soffit. I had an inexperienced helper, so when I double-checked with my 6' level, I just assumed my helper wasn't using her end right. Tommorrow I'm going to be finishing a siding job. The house is almost 100 years old so you can just imagine how handy a tool that can find level over long distances will be. We were able to cheat one corner quite a bit because of brush and a fence post, but now I'm almost back around to the front of the house and obviously my reveal has got to match.
I bought the 3/8" hose today. Are you talking about dissolved hand soap, or dish soap? I thought about adding antifreeze for color and cold temperatures. What is the best way to seal the ends for storage when the level is not in use?
Thanks guys, as usual I can count on the pros at Breaktime!
I've got a gizmo that fits over the tube and has a photocell in it. Hang it on the wall at the level where you want your mark. It buzzes when the water at that end is at the right level. Only accurate (with practice) to 1/8" or so, but that's plenty for most exterior work.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I almost bought that one. Zircon, right? Its a 1/4" tube? I wonder if you can change it over to 3/8"?
Yep, Zircon. Tubing appears to be 5/16".
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Instead of soapy water, I have used the blue windshield washer fluid. It has alcohol so it flows better, doesn't freeze and is easy to see. The only drawback is that it is toxic, so cover those buckets. Or, leave them open and they work great as a mousetrap.I meditate, I burn candles, I drink green tea, and still I want to smack someone.
With the bucket/reservoir water levels, you have to watch the temperature. As the temp rises, the water in the tube will expand much quicker than the water in the reservoir.
Ammonia is the better surfactant for that.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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please explain why that would matter as i'm sure it could not expand that much I was always taught that water expands when it freezes then turns to a gas as it warms and the differance would have to be much smaller than what my lazer is accurrate for. right?
mike,
If the water in the tube is warmer than the water in the reservoir it will be less dense. Its level will be higher than the water in the reservoir. If the tube is long and of a small diameter then the level difference can be significant. It can also change as conditions change.
The reverse applies if the water in the tube is colder than the water in the reservoir.
I am not saying water levels don't work. They are as reliable as gravity. That does not mean they are necessarily accurate. I am saying you have to be careful. Make a reference mark when you start work and compare the live end to the reference mark often.
Ron
The water still expands as it gets warmer, and shrinks when it gets colder... EXCEPT the moment where it turns to ice crystal. There it has to expand again to fit together properly
Tu stultus esRebuilding my home in Cypress, CAAlso a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
DO NOT add antifreeze, the level will be off. I am not sure why.Years ago we used water levels frequently inside buildings for ceilings,cabinets etc. When cold weather came around the only thing that kept the level from freezing and did not screw up the level was a warm place.The water level went in a styrofoam box with a 60 watt bulb. This generally was enough heat to keep it from freezing.
Once we tried a small amount of antifreeze, we marked out a room for ceilings that was out so much you could only laugh. The first line we checked didn't look right, out over an inch with a four foot level. We emptied the water level and flushed it out,refilled with h20.
By the way, Southern Comfort also does not work as an antifreeze for a waterlevel.
I had a partner who had to find out.He drank the level clean, I worked by myself the rest of the day.
mike
Auto antifreeze is generally glycol which is viscous and likely has high surface tension. You want a low viscosity fluid with low surface tension. Alcohol is likely superior to water (if you don't drink it).
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I'm curious as to how water can be out of level. I thought everything was calibrated off water, as it is the only thing on earth we consider level or flat?
Technically, its not flat! Large bodies of water follow the curviture of the earth.
Air bubbles or pressure differences in the water level can throw it off. But yes, you are correct.
I cut my teeth on water levels - 25 or so feet clear plastic tubing with some tie wire wrapped around each end to hang it. I laid out things (rough to finish) with a level like that for about ten years or so when I had a strange experience. I was working down in Naples Fl. and I needed to level something so I brought in a water level (this was about 15 years ago). I was working with a friend of mine who had little experience at the time but still works as a carpenter today. Anyway we lay out a mark, and I check it and it is about an inch off the double check. I check it again and it is somewhere in between. I look over at this guy and think - What the F? Start checking more and getting grumpier to say the least. All off. Then I think he is screwing with me. So I am watching him closely. He seemed to be trying. I MEAN HOW HARD IS IT!! Like that - the things I was saying. He had no reason to be F-ing with me but I'll tell you we never got that mark right and I am still wary today. Now I have a couple of PLS lasers. I never did figure that out. This is like the time I thought I saw a ghost I think to myself - did that really happen? I swear no herb that day either.
QS
I alway thought you did not hold to the line but the water level gave you a mark to measure off of
Hi BB, When we wanted to snap a control all around a room or even whole house we would have a guy stay at one mark and we would make as many marks as the water level would allow us off of that one control before we would move on to the next mark which would be chosen so that we could get as many marks as possible of that mark. And so on. Now I use the PLS 360. But I have been up a few stories and because of the sun I had to use the indictor and it started going nuts and I realized the in construction building (7 stories masonry/wood deck) was trembling so much that it made the laser useless - dangerous actually because I was getting a beep just lots of them. Every time the beam would cross the indicator it would go off - beep, beep, beep, beep. I was getting cocky with the laser and I am lucky I picked up on what was happening. But that is off task.