Took this photo today. not my project…This is a Build America Project.
It will soon be featured in the Sunbelt Builders show. The wall is 2×6 studs at 24 o.c. with most of the sheathing being 3/4″ XPS only and then OSB at the shear locations only.The OSB has 1/4″ XPS on top. The cavity insulation is open cell foam. The XPS is covered with tyvek rainscreen type house wrap and then topped with Hardi-plank.
What went wrong? the 24 inches oc? the lack of plywood or osb backer? improper setting on the nail gun? or all of the above?
Replies
My guess is the foam is compressed by the nails, no way to avoid it without drilling and hand nailing.
Sure looks like hell.
Joe H
I am pretty sure this is a prefinished product that Hardie wanted to show off. I also think it was a special "Hardie crew" that did the install.
Look at the length of the shadows. The sun angle exaggerates the waviness in the HP. You can get the same effect by shining a flashlight at a low angle across drywall - even a good wall with no visible defects will show every minor bump and valley.
True about the shadow exaggeration. The problem was not so noticeable on the shaded side of the house. A builder friend has warned me not to use Hardi with studs spaced 24 o.c. and I have heard others warn not to use it over "squishy" sheathing.
Does it make the house look "cheap" or does it add charm?
I recently noticed this exact same issue on an old house nearby that was resided last year with HP. Sheathing on that house was 1x12s. I haven't worked with the stuff yet and am begining to wonder whether this issue is a "problem" or a "feature" of HP. I haven't seen much of it around here yet. I take it that it is not supposed to look like this, or does it?
It matches the quality of the trim work. Probably it is the foam compressing, but it could be poor framing lumber combined with the 24" centers.
We refuse to put hardi over anything but hard sheathing. I'll turn the job down rather than end up with a bad looking job. Also, we have found that 16 oc is best.
We screw on the hardi to avoid the overlap not pulling up tight. If there is soft sheathing it compresses to much. To tell the truth, it is hard to get a wood framed wall perfectly straight and lap siding will show it every time.
James
NextLevel, I appreciate your comment about the "overlap not pulling up tight" when I looked "up the wall" I could see puckered out siding. I think this may be the crux of the problem.
NextLevel, I will try again to attach a photo looking up
Edit to add :Or is it "pulling up" to tight at the studs?
Edited 8/12/2007 12:52 pm by homedesign
Thanks for the picture looking up. We have been putting on hardi for about 12 years and this is a common problem. The overlap is not tight because the top of the siding is not fastened tight. This is also a common problem if the sheathing is not a hardboard.
I have seen hardi fastened with roofing nails, finish nails from a finish gun, siding nails and staples from a staple gun. All of these applications seem to leave the lap not tight unless you hit studs with the siding nails. If there is wrap on the house then the studs are hard to find.
We started using coarse thread galvanized screws about 8 eight ago and they will pull up tight in osb or plywood. I know it takes a little longer but it sure makes the job look good.
James
"We started using coarse thread galvanized screws about 8 eight ago and they will pull up tight in osb or plywood. I know it takes a little longer but it sure makes the job look good."
Does that require predrilling or are you using a screw for that purpose? I've only seen it nailed so this would definitely be a better solution if time wasn't an issue.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fishand he'll sit in a boat all day, drinking beer.
You do not have to pre-drill the siding. The screws start well and go in without any problem. We have actually gotten very fast with the screws. WE use the siding gun to hang the piece in place. We shoot about three nails and then run the screws in with battery drills.
We put the shake panels on the same way.
Watched a crew put hardi on a new house the other day and they put it on with finish guns. The builder had the painter caulk every lap joint because the crack was so ugly. I mentioned to him that there was a way to install the hardi without that problem. Of course, the crew was in there and out real quick. But sometimes finishing fast is not the thing to do. Finishing well is always good.
James
James
"Watched a crew put hardi on a new house the other day and they put it on with finish guns. The builder had the painter caulk every lap joint because the crack was so ugly. I mentioned to him that there was a way to install the hardi without that problem. Of course, the crew was in there and out real quick. But sometimes finishing fast is not the thing to do. Finishing well is always good."
All right , come clean. What's the secret? I'm putting 8 1/4" Hardi on a 40' porch right now. Due to all the windows, I only got about 6-8 butt joints. Whats the best way to make em disappear?
I assumed he was talking about the horizontal joints.
Your right..... just reread it.
Ten O'clock and it's still over 85 degrees..... friggin insane
There is no trick or magic for the butt joints. They always bother me because some of them seem to stick out like a sore thumb. The only thing that helps is to cut the factory ends with a diamond blade before butting them up.
James
Bugle head screws or flat head. If bugle, do you have to countersink them to sit flush.
Thanks, Chuck
We use a phillips drive bugle head screw with the drywall drive bit in the drills. You cannot countersink the screw heads because that will compromise the holding strength of the screw heads.
Buildex is a great screw for this because it is teflon coated and goes in smooth. Galvanized work well also.
James
I was doing a small hardi wall today and decided to do it your way. I was amazed at how much tighter the boards lay. It's a bit slower, but not enough to matter. Thanks for the tip. It makes for a much better installation.
I hate call backs. If I can do a job well the first time and avoid future problems then I do not mind spending a little more time. I'm glad it worked well for you. We just finished putting on 30 squares of hardi lap on an older house. Looked good when we were done. Had a lot of arched windows that added some extra character.
James
You can pour maple syrup on horsesh1t..... but it still ain't gonna be french toast.
I wouldn't blame the Hardi... it's either the substrate, or poorly crowned studs set to 24" centers.... or more likely.... a combination of the two. I'd bet cedar claps wouldn't have looked much different.... especially with the sun (or lights) at that brutally revealing angle.
you guys are scarin me...
what am i missing ?.....
View Image
it looks like any clapboard job i've ever seen... cedar or FC...
except with wood we'd have made sure we hit the sill , not just the head casing... i guess with Hardie we'd have hit both too
all in all , this looks like someone took some time... and nailing over rain screen & XPS, i'd say they did a commendable job
but hey, whadda i no ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/12/2007 9:47 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 8/12/2007 9:47 am ET by MikeSmith
I dunno Mike.... that looks wavy as heck to me.View Image
Mike Smith, what did you mean by hitting the sill not just the head casing. I was just curious what you meant.
Thanks, Chuck
if you figure your vertical layout you can usuually make your courses align with both the sill & the head casing
in this pic they didn't .. matter of fact the vertical alignment is different from one window to the other..
View Image
so the wavy didn't bother me.. it's the non-level elements that bothers me
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/14/2007 6:35 am ET by MikeSmith
Gotcha, thanks for the response.
Chuck
I think the trim under the window looks like a door sill, ughlee. Needs more mass.
Mark,
Ditto on the more mass at the sill. This house is trying to be historically accurate....but the sills from our vintage homes were more like 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inches thick. I also think that the casing detail that wraps around the clad window frame sorta "gives it away".
The preservationists will tell you that "a new building or addition should not perfectly mimick the past" But I think those old house details just look better.
BTW the window head has a new Azek shape "Rams Crown" that is pretty close to our local vintage detail.
Edited 8/14/2007 10:07 am by homedesign
There are quite a few houses around here with nasty almost historical detailing. At first glance you think they look aright, but then all the something's-not-quite-right heres add up and the whole thing falls apart.
Quick question (or two) on Hardi Plank install. Can it be laid up on ICF on the 12" imbedded plastic runners with out creating the "wave" problems using the afore mentioned screws? Has anyone put Hardi on a ICF home and found it any different than a stick built?
Thanks
Jim
I am not familiar with the ICF term but I think you are talking about the foam block walls. We did two houses with the blocks but the strip inside was metal and it did very well. There was no wavyness in the walls and the siding held very tight to the blocks. That was about 10 years ago and I see the builder sometimes and he says he never had any problem with the siding.
Had to use self-tapping screws but that worked just as well as the sharp pointed ones.
James
I went back and looked at your picture. That really is a problem with the siding not being the same at the windows. I wonder if the windows are at the same elevation. WE have run into that a few times.
James
They might have shimmed up the left window due to out-of-level framing, and didn't think about the effect on the window ten feet away.
Or not. Who knows?
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
All, Here is a link to a video about this project
http://www.bannisterhousetexas.com/videos.html
video is 'James Hardie Color Plus" in the video the guy is blind nailing at less than 24 inches oc. I believe the studs are 24 oc.
Do the stray nails that are not hitting the studs cause a problem as they would with drywall. The wall section in the video may have osb corner bracing.BTW there is also a video about advanced framing. I am not so sure that they used 1/3 less lumber than a typical house. 2x12 headers in non loadbearing walls etc.
Edited 8/16/2007 6:41 am by homedesign
Edited 8/16/2007 6:58 am by homedesign
The siding looks uneven or wavy, even in the shadowed areas. It looks like a combination of the 24" spacing of the nails and the spongy surface.
It also looks like the siding is proud of the window trim at the bottom of each peice of siding. I agree that it was the installation method and not the siding that is the problem.
Edited 8/12/2007 2:28 pm ET by wood4rd
I put up a lot of Hardie. I see this problem every time someone blind nails and doesnt increase the lap. Sun doesn't help any either.
Shellbuilder,
When you say "increase the lap" are you talking more than the Hardi recomended 1-1/4" overlap? I think this is 4 inch exposure ...a 5-1/4 product with 1-1/4" overlap. Is the narrow exposure more of a problem than the wider more standard size planks?
Do you guys break a lot of pieces when you handle it? Do you have to order much extra for breakage?
I bought some to make a mock-up and the first piece I picked up snapped in two. I had to be very careful when I picked up a long board.
It does lay flatter if it is lapped more. I face nail and use the unpainted for every job so I am not lapping extra, using the 1 1/4 lap. I know a lot of guys like the pre painted but I find the caulking to be a pain in the asse and I don't like seeing the gaps at the bottom or handling the product prepainted. I think one of the best attributes of hardie is how easy it is to paint, so the whole prepaint thing never made sense to me.
Although I gave up on blind nailing, yes I would incresae the lap at least 1". Yes , the product is brittle, you'll figure out moving it around. I use a lot of beaded woodgrain. This is a tough product to face nail because the nail needs to be above the groove on the bead yet that is damn close to the top of the under piece, sometimes the nails are a fight. I like laying out n even numbers and I believe all of their products allow even layout. Adjusting exposure may be easier to consider full inches or 1/2 inches, food for thought.
To avoid the effect and use less skilled labor and to avoid any thinking on the crews part... around here they first apply a batton board every 12ft & 1/4" then run full HD planks between them... all full board ... even on 50-60ft runs you just can't see the bad install because of the batton breaks ... really seems to work out well for all involved... zero butt joints between planks
p
Yeah I have put a bunch of them up in Harbor town like that.It sure is a easier to hide small mistakes that way.
But I have seen some studs so warped that breaking the runs up doesn't hide the wave.
Hey congrats on the fence find.
You know those doors you got are any of them 7' tall and do you have any left over?
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
uptown area is where i see them run it to the batter boards everyday... I don't think it looks bad at all...
Biggs is going to pull all my posts with his track hoe in the morning... I spent 4 hrs sat with my bobcat and think i got 20... he pulled 400 today in 4 hrs... so i'll be stack'n em... it's the fence that made the news a few years ago (about how much they spent on it) around what was dixie homes on poplar... I'm pretty pleased with it...
I have alot of 8ft doors but not sure if i have even 1 7ft... but if i do it's not something I'll be using... I'll try to make time & look... if not building materials on jackson in their back warehouse has many many one off nice doors... people that shop there have no use for "nice" so they pretty much just sit there... might be worth looking at
p
what is a 'punchout' specialist
I did punchout for several builders for a couple of years made more money per hour than I was making with an entire framing crew.
I had a bunch tricks up my sleeve that I could bill a days worth and be done in an hour but it wasn't always that good, still I liked it and it was good test of my analytical thinking.
I do remodel exclusively now but those same builders call me when they land a remodel job.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Someone who handles punch lists -- fixing the list of defects found in a new home walk-thru. Requires good "generalist" skills.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Can you use a portercable galvinized staple to discretely fasten it to the board beneath it.... This really happened because the guys were using boards that were too large
<This really happened because the guys were using boards that were too large>
Justakid, Not sure what you mean? can you explain?
There's this conception that if a carpenter cuts something long that if its flexible like hardi or MDF that this can be fudged with to fit. Typically by putting on end in and applying pressure until the other end fits, it can be split up across 4 nails too. Sometimes it works, sometimes it works and then like concrete is known to it expands. I contend that while the piece fits you can tell from the ground. KEEP IN MIND YOU CANNOT SEE IT IF YOUR STANDING IN FRONT OF IT, you either have to back up or sight the line from and end. If your crew doesn't do this occasionally and have the other guys check layout with a story pole in the mean time it really messes things up fast.
Justakid, thanks for the reply. I noticed that the Hardie specs call for a min. 1/8" space between siding and trim. In the photo it looks to me like the siding is tight against the trim. This may be compounding the problem. It seems there are a lot of forces at work here.
Sad to say, that's (ahem) "normal".