I was nailing together a header with my not-very-old Hitachi NR83-A2 gun today. The nails were 12d smooth coated sinkers, .131″ shanks. The header was two pieces of LSL. I had to put them in the opening one at a time and nail them together in place. 11-7/8″ by 12′ long.
Anyhow, the nails are only going in halfway at 100 psi. Even at 110 psi they stick out an inch, and the tank drops to 100 before the pump comes on…you know the story.
My question is this: Do I have a bad gun, or are all these NR83’s like that? I had the nose adjusted for max drive.
If my gun is hopeless for this application, what is a better choice in a FRH framer? It seems that I need more punch for remodel work, since I often have to nail into old baked fir, and engineered timber. Lots of stuff has to be nailed in the air or in place.
What would be great is a framing gun that has huge power reserves, as well as a way to turn the power down without adjusting the psi. Is there such a beast?
Thanks in advance.
Bill
Replies
I don't know the gun you've got, but I would say that a framing gun incapable of driving a 12d nail into anything short of concrete is probably not working properly. In general, if a gun isn't delivering the punch it ought to, you should check the seals and diaphragms. They do wear out and need replacing. Kits are available for almost any gun.
I used clipped head stick nailers, and have both Senco and Paslode framing guns. My Paslode does the job, holds plenty of nails, and takes the abuse without complaining. But if you want all that plus the gun with the most bang, go with the Senco.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
And to answer your other question, no, I've never seen a gun with a 'power' control on the gun itself. That said, I suppose you could jack a second regulator into the air line at the gun itself. Might be a bit cumbersome, though.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Could be the actual LVL itself???
I've had experiences where nails haven't fully sunk while nailing 2 lvls together, then moved on to the next one and it's been fine, both with Bostitch and Hitachi guns.
I had the same results with an SN4....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I had the same results with an SN4....
If a Senco IV won't sink it, God don't want it sunk....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
It was not LVL, it was LSL, AKA "Timberstrand." Think OSB, only 1-3/4" thick. I would think that this stuff is more consistent than LVL"s.I need a true round head nailer, due to living in SoCal.Bill
Bill, no doubt that that's about as dense and tough a material as your nailer will ever need to fire into. I run my framers at 120psi. And sometimes we do have to set the nails with a hammer in engineered lumber.
The only gun I can think of that has more power than the Hitachi is the Bostich. But, IMO, there's just too many other things I like about the Hitachi compared to the Bostich to make it worthwhile to swap. All in all, it's my belief that the Hitach framing nailers are the best available.
First place to check is your rings and seals. A rebuild kit for a Hitachi stick nailer is only about 20 bucks. It's a routine maintenance type issue and nothing that can't be done with a few allen wrenches and 15 min standing at the tailgate of your truck.
Also double check that you don't have a dirty fitting where muck blew up into the gun.View Image
Hi Diesel,I was hoping you would chime in. I bought the gun new a year ago and have used it very little. You do more framing in a day than I'll do in a year. I bought it because I didn't like my PC FR350's ergonomics, and almost all serious framers love, or at least respect the Hitachi.I was alarmed at the apparent lack of power in old dry wood as well as the LSL and LVL. I don't frame a lot, but often when I do, it is in the most difficult materials and positions. Even at 110 psi i was having trouble. See next paragraph for compressor limitations.Do you run a 2-stage air compressor? I use a venerable oiled Emglo twin-stack hand-carry that came with the switch at 95 psi on/125 psi off, and I adjusted it to 100/125. Portability is way more essential to my work than brute force, and most jobs I leave the Emglo home and take the 32 pound Thomas that is also super quiet. Most of my jobs don't use a framing gun anymore, just trim guns.I guess I am simply working at the limits of widely available technology. There is always my cordless hammer to fall back on. (ouch!)Bill
as a thought..
what size and type of air line do you use...
how long of a run from the compressor to the gun...
you could be starving it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
IMERC,Today, 3/8" rubber hose with 1/4" fittings, about 30' direct to compressor. I was firing slowly and deliberately, so I thought the hose size was not critical in that instance. Doesn't the shot you fire use air already in the gun's upper chamber? It had plenty of time to recharge between shots.Bill
it was a thought...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Bill, we've always cranked the psi up to a minimum of 120. I blew a few sencos (1980 versions) up but the paslodes (early 90's) and hitachi's have always taken the abuse. Even at those high psi levels, sometimes the heads will stick out. Nailing deliberate as you mentioned helps. I find that if I press the nosepiece, then pull the trigger, I can get deeper penetration.
Setting the psi to 120 on the smaller rigs dometimes involves tinkering with the pre set factory safety limits. I don't know how to do it because I had a partner at the time that knew a lot more about these kinds of things.
blue
Yeah I've used those Timberstand LSL's before, I just didn't know they were reffered to as LSL's.
I framed a 5000 sq ft house that had very comlex, enginereed floor systems. All the rim joists were LSL's. It also had the biggest / widest LVL's I've ever handled. I think they were maybe 18 3/4 wide.
Two thoughts:
100 psi is low for me when I frame using Douglas Fir.
I am not sure what an LSL is. But when I have had to nail LVLs they are very hard to nail. I crank the compressor up to about 120 -125 and they still will not go in all the way.
Sometime try nailing just one of those nails by hand and see how hard it is.
Personally I have had the best service with the gun you are using than any other. I have had my Hitachi guns for several years.
Once I thought I would try something different and bought a PC and it started leaking within just a few days. So I returned it to PC headquarters and got my money back.
Bostich N-88
Forrest
You mentioned that you were nailing them "up in place". Overhead I assume. Without a solid nailing surface, the back LSL will deflect some when the nail is driven into it. Actually both will move somewhat absorbing some of the force of the gun. Take 2 pieces of scrap and lay them on the floor flat and try to shoot a nail in. It will probably sink them in all the way.
I've shot lots of nails through LSL and LVL, both with Hitachi and my current PC. a trick is to use two hands - one in the normal position and one on the top of the reservoir where it vents - and all the muscle you can apply to minimize recoil.
I can have both framing nailers and brad nailers going at the same time and use a small portable, also very durable, regulator to pull the pressure down wherever it branches off. This is imperative on my pneumatic caulking gun. At a full 130 psi you can push a full tube of caulk out an eigth-inch tip opening in about 5 seconds. I want to hire the guy that can keep up with that!
As has been written, the Hitach is a very good gun. Mine would not set the nails as deeply as my PC, but well enough 99% of the time. The reason I bought a PC is the Hitach jams with two sticks of nails. Both are excellent full-head guns, and are rebuilable. They respond well to regular oiling. Feed them every time you feed yourself.
That is interesting what you wrote about PC versus Hitachi. My experience has ben exactly the opposite. My PC was always jamming and the Hitachi I can't remember the last time it jammed. After about one week my PC started leaking. I run my guns at 120 psi most of the time.
The head of the first nail of the second stick of nails would jump under the head of the last nail of the first stick and cause the first stick to jam in the magazine. Every Hitachi I've seen in this area. Maybe we use a different a different brand of nails, etc.
The PC you got sounds pretty bad all around. I had a pressure switch stick on and the compressor ran until it's head gasket blew. Guessing 150+# or so. Senco strap nailer did blow up, hoses were so fat they were scary. Framing nailer never has leaked.
Thanks, guys. I really appreciate all the input. I do know about the recoil effect when nailing in the air, but it cannot be helped. The doubled beam is often too heavy to set in place, or else I need to through-nail the first lamination before adding the second one. I do use the two-handed grasp on the gun with hard stuff, and sequential shots with nose fully on, then pull the trigger. It helps, but not enough.What I am taking away from all this communal wisdom is that I may need to modify/replace my compressor with one that can output 120 psi of regulated air without dipping below that to start the pump. I wonder if my Emglo would work at those settings? Seems like it might stall the motor on startup to set the cut-in at 120 psi. Or trip breakers. This compressor has seldom tripped 15A breakers, which is valuable in remodel situations. It is comforting to know that the Hitachi can withstand regular use at 120 psi. I like the gun, it is almost new, and I don't want to buy another gun for framing, since I do so little of it anymore.Thanks again.Bill
I would think you could adjust your Emglo. Two of my friends have Emglo's that work fine on the Hitachi framing nailer.
bill, I've used the Hitachi's quite a bit. They are fast, well balanced and they are my favorite. As stated before, they are weak and jam with 8d. My personal framing gun is a Senco. I use it for side jobs, mostly remodeling. The Senco is smaller and way more powerfull. It is perfect for remodeling. It's not very well balanced so production work is out of the question. I was kind of surprised about the earlier comment about the SNIV not having enough power, we used to use those to shoot bottom plates down to spancrete and when 4" nails were specified. Those were some heavy guns.
Yeah, the SN4 comment surprised me , too. I never used one, but the reputation reached my ears.Bill
that was me..
some times in plateing LVL's it will leave nails proud some times..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Before you run the cutoff pressure of your compressor up too high, check the pressure rating on your tank. There should be a metal card/certification plate welded to the tank somewhere. Usually the tanks are rated for a little more, but not a lot more pressure than the original design cutoff pressure of the compressor. Exceeding that pressure would be pretty risky, I would think, esp. on an older compressor where the tank may have some rust.
Thanks, I'll be sure to check that out. I'd lke my next compressor with titanium tanks. No rust ever, and half the weight.Bill
Another friend of mine bought a PC and the same thing happened on the same day. Are you using clipped nails or full headed nails?The only time I have had what you described is when I was not very careful when I loaded strips of nails. Mine were full headed.
We use full headed here.
Maybe I'm lucky. My experience with PC has been very good with everytrhing I've bought from them. I also have large hands so the framing nailer fits me better than some others.
I use the PC FR350 and bounce nail everything.
On LVL's I use some big C-clamps to pull the sandwich together before I nail it off. This provides a measure of stiffness to the beam which helps keep the shiners to a minimum and when you do have to set the proud ones one good whack does it.
Pulling the LVL's together with clamps also makes them fit in the allotted space. I HATE headers that stickout and mess up either my drywall or sheathing line.
I love Hitachi stick nailers, but I'm very familiar with the magazine defect you describe where the nails will piggyback. Especially with shorter nails.
First thing I do with a new Hitachi stick nailer is throw away the magazine and install a Supco magazine along with a rafter hook. Seriously. Those magazines on that gun make for a killer set up.View Image
Never thought to do that. Keep it in mind when the PC gets tired.
Wow i thought the piggy backing with shorter nails in my Hitachi was something i had to live with and it is at times very damned fustrating.
where did you get your aftermarket magazine?
And out of curiosity what size hoses do you run?
Kinda of late to the party, but I will toss this in. I own 10 Hitachi NR 83a's of various vintages. They are THE gun of choice here in sunny SoCal. Our compressors are set to come on at 100 psi and off at 125 psi. When nailing into LVL or LSL you will only sink a few all the way in, then you should toggle the trigger to drop the pressure so the compressor will cycle back to 125. A PIA to be sure, but I have tried many brands of nailers and the Hitachi's work for us the best. There is always the 400 psi MAX brand nailer, but you have to draw the line somewhere.
Thanks. Could you describe how you "toggle the trigger" to make the compressor come on? Trigger of the nailgun, do I have that correct?I also live in sunny SoCal, BTW.Bill
To toggle or bleed off air on your Hitachi squeeze the trigger back and forth without depressing the nose peice.
small amounts off air will blow by the valve.
What Passin said.