I have finally decided to get my own website for my stair business. I am willing to pay someone here to help me get setup. I may know how to build curved stairways…build and fly gyrocopters…..but I am a dumb goat when it comes to computers.
Stan
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Replies
Stan - are you looking for someone to create one for you, or do you want to do your own and want to learn how?
In MS Office I fumbled thorugh Frontpage, wrote text and posted pics. I then submitted the work and additional ideas to a webmaster who tweaked and did improvements. We are still under construction but up and running.
The charges were less becasue of my preliminary work.
I had never used Frontpage before this rough draft. Fumbling is a good discription of what I did to get the rough draft.
torn: I need someone to do it. It may sound strange...but I just cant grasp....or maybe I dont want to grasp anything harder than attaching pictures here on this forum.
I have often wondered if its a genetic code in my brain...whatever...I have never had anyone so much as to be able to show me how to cut and paste. I just dont get it.
Stan
Edited 2/28/2006 7:01 am ET by StanFoster
Keep fumbling. I assure you, if you can build curve stairs then you can learn to use Frontpage!"With every mistake we must surely be learning"
Hey Stan-I have FrontPage 2003. I purchased a template from one of the many sites on the internet. Google FrontPage Templates. I think I have a pretty good grasp of FrontPage, but buying a template will really give you a kickstart. They're only around $50-$100...sometimes maybe more.Download the template in FrontPage and screw around with it. You can't hurt anything. There are even freebee templates online for you to try. Directions are usually imbedded in the template to guide you. The templates included with FrontPage are lame and will only get you frustrated.If you know someone that is proficient with Word or Excel, they should certainly be able to help, as it involves the use of cells.Check out my site below to see what FrontPage can do. I was online in a day after downloading.Good Luck and let me know if I can help!View Image
Here is an easy translation
Front Page = B&D=Ryobi
It is exactly for people who don't know what they are doing and the results prove it.
Pay someone with Dreamweaver or Flash or whatever else and get a pro looking site.
Frontpage, Dreamweaver, Flash... They all build in tons of unneccesary code. They build in backdoors, bugs and major security risks.They make mistakes and can't even fix their own mistakes, you have to start all over again from scratch.If you decide to make changes later, you will probably have to start again from scratch, because it -is- going to make mistakes, and will -not- be able to fix those mistakes.If your site designer/builder only knows how to build with Dreamweaver, they they are not going to have any idea how to fix mistakes, or make changes later.As mcf says, those programs are the black and decker of website building. And worse.You don't want a "professional" who knows the right buttons to push in dreamweaver, to give you some oooh-aaah flashy... buggy website. You want someone who types in every character, and knows why. Who can figure out why a button or a link doesn't work, just by looking at the code. Build the site from scratch, character by character. Know what every tiny bit of the code is in the page. What it does, and why. Etc.K.I.S.S. Easy to change, easy to fix, easy to maintain... And you will have less headaches in the long run. Frontpage, Dreamweaver and Flash make every dork out there think now they can make websites as good as the professional. The same as DIY's think they can build stairs or a house because they own a drill and a hammer.Way too many "taillight warranty" website "professionals" out there using Dreamweaver and Frontpage. Just like taillight warranty "contractors" with a nailgun in the trunk and a magnetic sign on the side door.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
In all fairness I guess I should also add that in a sense I agree with MCF and you that Frontpage is not really a great tool for serious professional webdesign but it does serve a useful purpose in the right environment. For the larger corporation that is heavily invested in Microsoft busines applications FrontPage makes integrating Excel Word Powerpoint and other documents into a corporate intranet relativly easy and painless. But no, generally speaking it is not really a very good tool for the professional web designer.
View Image
I've seen several people mention that Front Page isn't a real high powered web design program. OK... so what?
We're not talking about designing a webpage for Coke or Pepsi, we're talking about a very basic website for a custom stair builder. Stan isn't trying to drum up a billion $ worth of business, he just wants to give people a place they can go on the web to see some of his work and get his contact info. He doesn't need a big city professional web designer to give him the best site in the country... he just needs some basic info that folks can easily find.
jt8
"Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Mann Jong
JohnT8, while I may have just deleted my posts where I mentioned FrontPage earlier I never categorically condemed it as I think some people have. What I did say earlier about it was:
And I still stand by that. It just not a great tool for the everyday joe user that's all. While Stan was not talking about doing the site himself, he wants someone to do it for him, which I think is a smart more cost effective thing to do, he's probalby better off generating revenue building stairs than spending his time learning how to build a website. However for the the contractor who does want to build his own site there are better low end web development tools that don't cost the arm and a leg that Dreamweaver Studio and GoLive do that are better choices than FrontPage. I just don'tknow what they are for the Windows platform since we are a Mac centric shop.
However I do think professional design benefits any user and just using some local yokel using Front Page may not serve him well at all. On the other hand there may also very well be a very professional outfit just down the street. Ya never know.
View Image
stan may not want a billion dollars in business but that doesn't erase the need for a premier site. when you are selling expensive custom stairs your website should mirror the quality of the trade you perform. his site should be crisp and polished with a professional presence. his website will be his first contact with potential customers. if it is hokey many people will associate his craftsmanship to its quality...in other words, this site needs to communicate everything stan would on his first call with a client. this includes the entire presentation not just pictures.
I'll forward you a name of a guy whose work I like...maybe it helps, maybe not, but he's a nice guy, and capable.
Hi Stan,
I really admire your work! My wife is a web designer professionally, and has also done some work on the side for small businesses, usually local (we're in Philadelphia). Since the baby 7 months ago, she has been looking to maybe get back into it since she's only working part time. I could run it by her to see what she thinks if you're interested.
Thanks, PJ
Stan,
I consider myself decent on the computer and in retrospect, I wish I had paid someone to do my site. My site looks ok but I spent a lot of time on it. I used a company called one&one to host the site and they provided free software that was relatively easy to use.
But again, it took a lot of my time. I received a quote from a neighbor and I should have gone with her on it. I would highly recommend going with someone to do it for you. Technically, the developer could be anywhere in the country, so if someone here has a good recommendation, I would say go for it. Personally, I would be more comfortable going with someone close to home.
When picking a developer, find out if they have a host in mind. Find out what that host provides; number of pages allowed, email addresses, viewing statistics, etc. Also, make sure you get you "own" website, i.e. http://www.stanfoster.com. Don't go with something like http://www.aol.com/stanfoster. I like when email addresses are in the format of [email protected], it just looks so much more professional.
Joe
>Also, make sure you get you "own" website, i.e. http://www.stanfoster.com. Don't go with something like http://www.aol.com/stanfoster. I like when email addresses are in the format of [email protected], it just looks so much more professional.I hear that!!!!I'm amazed that so many professionals don't have a professional email address. It takes so little cost and effort to get that and there are benefits beyond just the obvious...especially portability if one switches isp's. It's just another form of branding your company.
I have http://www.jmadson.com. It costs $7 per month and I think the original registration of the website cost like $29.99. It's now my name forever, regardless if I stay small or grow the company some day.
Thanks guys...lot of ideas.
I am going to just hire it done....I am still thinking who.
Stan
Stan
What ever you do make sure theres plenty of pictures!
That's all you need!
Doug
Just curious
I'm not trying to pry into any bodies business but what's an average website cost to have done?
I think the quote I got was for around $400. And that was for a basic and simple website.
Average site between $750 and $1500. That is why most sites look at best, average.I get between $2500 and $5000 for site design, graphic creation and copy writing while a programmer gets roughly another $1500. Most programmers make horrible designers and vice versa. Relying on one person to achieve both tasks usually yields poor results.If you think about it, a well done website is really a multi-page brochure. You're not going to get a well designed brochure done for less than 2 or 3 grand nor should you expect to get a website for any less.In Stan's case he's got to figure in professional photography of finished works as well. Like a fine set of stairs or any of the other craftsman like trades, you get what you pay for.
Stan - The only thing I'd say is to take your time and think through how you want your site to represent you, what you want it to be. Mine works great for what I wanted.
Luka built my site, and still makes changes to it when I ask. It has worked well for me and not given me any operating problems. I'm about 50, and my free time was (is) way too valuable to me to try to figure out how to build my own site. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
"Most programmers make horrible designers and vice versa. Relying on one person to achieve both tasks usually yields poor results."Programmers are designers. Just not VISUAL designers. ;o)It's like architects vs. contractors. Both need to have a good understanding of what the other does, and, often, they can do what the other does.That said, the key is to make sure both roles are covered. Whether that's one person or 12 is less important, but the key is that a site should be good looking, and DO something for your business. Typically, that means the site provides some sort of content and/or functionality for your customers and potential customers in an easy to use, accessible manner.
Agreed. And note I said "most programmers make horrible designers and vice versa" not all. There are clearly exceptions to this rule. I however am not one of those exceptions.
I suggest you get ALL the cost up front before you even start with your website.
My experience with internet business was eye opening.
1. you have to have a "product", which can be a physical product, or an idea which you want to promote.
2. You design a website. Costs vary depending on how elaborate the site will be
3. You need a domain name for the website. After many searches I came to: godaddy. Your domain name must be registered. They do that and also
4. You must have a host. They offer these services also.
5. You have to think of how to ship the product, storage, returns,
Now comes the hard part:
If you want any success in this business you must have a merchant account.
Customers who are interested in your product want fast actionand security. They do not like to send cheques where they think if there is some problem they will never see their money. With credit cards all they have to do is ask their creditcard bank to reverse the charges. This means you will loose about 3/4 of your customers if you do not offer credit card payment. The merchant account should be able to accept the major credit card transactions. Transactions mean that the bank which will accept a customer's card will collect this money from the customer and credit your account with the amount you charge for your product minus their commission (usually 3-4%). The set up fee for the merchant account can be from 300 - 5000 depending on the business and their terms. Also keep in mind that people from other parts of the world might purchase your product, all currency exchanges and fees go thru the merchant account.
If you are all set up with your website, your merchant account, your shipping features ,you have to think how to attract people to your website.
And here is the real kicker
Say, you want to sell furniture. How will customers find you on the net? They type in Furniture. Zillions of website will come up. You know yourself if you are looking for something on the net and there are ,say 4000 entries for the subject, you will not look up more than 100, if anywhere near that.
So, how do you get at the front of the search engine? You have to bid on the position.And that can run you a big bundle. If you go to Yahoo or Google, you can easily pay 1$ per click, meaning that Google will send you a bill for every click they register from your site. That money has to be earned first or your budget gets shot down very fast.
I got this info from International Marketing Center, which has an excellent course on internet business. I still have the course, although I do not continue with this business at this time. I would not sell it to you if you would pay me the full price, it is that valuable to me. As of today I have not found an inexpensive way to market my idea. If anybody out there knows different, please let us know.
My business was selling a marketing course (which is tops in itself Small Business Big Profit) After all, we are all in the marketing business regardless of what we are doing, wether we are selling a product, a service, an idea or ourself.
Edited 3/5/2006 12:22 am ET by semar
Thanks
Hi Stan.
Did you see the site Luka did for Jim Blodgett? Luka is my reccomendation.
That site fits for Jim because it serves as a showcase, soft sell that he can send potential prospects to and have them come back and get on his list to wait 6 or 9 months for their turn. It works perfectly.
What is it you hope to obtain by building the site.
To do it well I would expect you to spend upwards of 100 hours in prep, editing and tweeks in the first 6 months until it is right.
You will pay your web author (if Luka), 5-1500 I would expect, depending on what kind of site.
If you are worth $50.00 / hour that's an investment of about $6,000.
The great part of dealing with someone like Luka with building experience is you can put pictures, draft text, keywords you want to rank for and wish list in a shoe box and he can create a beautiful presence without spending more than a few hours preparing materials.
Now, keep in mind that the average website gets 10 visits per month.
How are you going to get a payback for your considerable investment without traffic?
Luka knows a little about SEO (the art of getting traffic from search engines), and he knows exactly where to find out more.
JMHO
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Or [email protected]
hello Jim
following Lawrence's compliments of your website I clicked on visit website in your profile and was sent to a Taunton site
might want to check on that ( and I do want to see your site )
salud John
I just tried it and it worked.http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com/In the past he did have a mistake in the link, but don't know when he fixed it.
bill... if you click on jim blodgett's name you get a menu:
one of the items is "visit website"
if you click on that you don't go to blodgett's website, you go to Taunton'sMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I just tried it.And it worked.But I am not using that obsolete Windoze junk.I am using a modern OS called EcomStation, AKA OS/2http://www.ecomstation.com/
wow... there's a name from the past... i loved OS/ 2.. i was so pizzed when IBM threw in the towel...
did i have two versions ?????
was the early one OS/2 and the last version OS/2 Warp ?
i'm stuck with Windows XP Pro unless my software can run as well on a different platform..
i was kinda thinking that Linux would develop enough of a following that the SW mfrs would start writing for that ..
but it really looks like a windows world.. contrary to what MAC users think
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/4/2006 2:01 pm ET by MikeSmith
I did not use it, but the orginal verion of OS/2 was command line only.I think that it was 2 something when they got the PM interface.IIRC version 3 was the first one called Warp. And it can in 4 flavors. With and without Win 3.1 built in (they had to pay a licensing fee to MS) and with our without networking. But even the low cost spread version including support for dailup interneting including a browswer and that was ahead of it's time.
Granted.
Unfortunately there are multitudes more people out there who have no idea what they are doing, and think that just because they buy a program like Dreamweaver, they are automatically web designer/builders.
Telling people who have no idea what HTML code is, to just buy Dreamweaver and build their own site... Is like telling someone to buy a betty crocker cookbook and apply for the head chef position at a gourmet restaurant.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
I won't comment on HTML vs. an editor program, since even Frontpage can be an effective part of managing a well built website. Ok, so I did have to comment on that one. Frontpage and Dreamweaver do add additional code, but for many layouts the additional code is minimal. What isn't minimal is the speed at which updates can be made by those closest to the action--not to a web designer who will get to it when they can.
What I would suggest is to focus mostly on finding a person good at designing a solid site and who you can sit down with face to face for changes and updates. Don't give a rats ars what program it's put together with. Don't get flashy, just good content in a layout that's easy to follow.
I taught a short web design class for small businesses at a community college and my best advise then and now is to put yourself in your client's shoes. Pretend you're the client, looking for a stair builder for a specific project. Pic a random project and think about what information you'll need to decide who to hire. Then, search for a stairbuilder. Look at their websites, try to find the information. Look at what works and what doesn't and what looks professional on the different sites. It amazes me how many people build new sites without ever searching the competition from the client's point of view.
That's the view from the cheap seats. :-)
and have it designed for dial-up.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Ditto Trout and bobl. While I much prefer the flexibility of hard coding, some of the most well-designed sites I've ever seen were created using a WYSIWYG interface. I don't care much for Frontpage, but it does take away a lot of the "intimidation" factor about creating webpages. (Of course, you can do 90% of the same things with MS Word, but Frontpage allows FTP access, etc).If you plan to do anything beyond static text and images, knowledge of hard coding is almost a must. (database access, scripts, routines, SSIs, CSS, PHP, etc.)
Stan - I've long admired the photos of your work that get posted in the Tavern. I highly recommend that you work with a professional designer to ensure that your web site expresses the quality, craftsmanship and sheer elegance of your work. As a professional designer I can't stress this enough.
Trust me this is not a pitch for work as I am too busy to take on a new client at the moment, much as I would love to represent your fine work through my talents.
I would recommend that you seek out a Flash designer as this web application software yields a beautiful, dynamic web site. Think about conveying emotion and feeling with your site, not just cold hard info. Your work exhibits grace, beauty and a level of detail sorely lacking in this world and so should your web site.
It pains me to not go after this project but again, I am just swamped for the next few weeks. If you need a recommendation I've got a friend in Chicago that is quite capable. Maybe she can help.
One last tip, before designing your site take some time and identify sites you admire. This can be of great benefit when talking to a web designer.
Good luck.
Stan, I've gotta ask, what do you want your website to do for you?
Generate new business? You are a one-man stair shop. Don't you have all the biz you can handle?
Change your stair projects to ones with greater challenge, and perhaps more profit?
If the answer is yes to one or both of the above, you need to ask yourself by what means your intended prospects will learn of your site and navigate to it.
Establishing a domain name, buying it and reserving it, and then getting a good website built is easy. You just need GoDaddy for the first two, and a good website builder to work with. Luka is probably your go-to for that.
But the big question is why do you want a site, and what is it expected to do for you?
Consider this. How do you become aware of a website? Magazine ads will give URL addresses. Catalogs and brochures, too. A jobsite sign, a sign on a truck or car, a biz card, all of those can direct a prospect to your site. But how and where will your potential clients get wind of yours?
You are likely the best one-man stairshop operation in your part of the country. But how do you get those new potential clients to your page?
Stan,
Some very good posts so far, hopefully my contribution will be useful.
What are you trying to accomplish? My intent for our website is to be a second tier marketing tool, i.e. it doesn't necessarily bring potential clients in from search engines (although it has at times) but when people see some form of advertising (business cards, print ads, referrals) they can then check out our site and learn more.
I would imagine your goals will be the same. If so, you can exclude concerns about meta tags, etc.
Secondly, spend some time looking at other sites that you do or don't like. I did this and I was able to send links to my designer and point to specific items as what to do or what to avoid. Very helpful way to communicate.
Good luck.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Stan
This has Luka's name written all over it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If Blodgett says Tipi Tipi Tipi, it must be so!
Luka,
A number of posters have recommended you for webdesign. Would you be willing to post or PM links to some of the sites you've created?
TIA
Torn, based on what I just saw on Blodgett's site, I'd reccomend Luka! I rarely go through an entire construction site but Jim's was great!
blue
Totally concur
obvious Jim's spirit is the prevailing current in his site and brought to the fore w/ Luka's fine collaborationI can see Luka w/ his goggles and leather helmet hat flying in the breeze w/ Stan and his gyrocopter
Blue, John, Lawerence, thanks, but all the credit goes to Luka, for sure. I didn't know where to start or how to go about thinking about a website. He walked me through it step by step, taking all the time I needed. He knew where to register the name, rent the webspace, everything.
Maybe the best recommendation I can give him is that, like I said earlier, my site has been trouble free for the (I guess) 2 years I've had it now. I'm thinking it MUST be built right, huh?Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
Jeff
With all due respect...lol...can you help me with my website. I used Frontpage years ago and had a lot of luck with it but this year's another story it seems. I've spent hours messing with it and with all the work I've done I think I'm going to have to delete the entire thing not that theres much left to delete at this point.
I got so fed up with it that I just walked away from it...At this point I don't ever want to hear the words Front Page ever again. I donno why it worked for me a cpl of years ago and now its such a horror story.
Don't even ask...ugh
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COMIf Blodgett says Tipi Tipi Tipi, it must be so!
Andy,I'll email you.
Geekbox hero who once visited the glass city.
Jerrald:If you guys are serious about website design have your site looked at the link below. With all due respect, your eyes will open wildy when you hear suggestions from these folks. These folks are professionals! Their comments increased our sales by 60% since I implememented them three months ago. While I realize there's still more potential, I'm blown away by the number of callers we're now getting wanting to buy instead of kicking tires.http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=4
HardwoodGuy I know the site (http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/forums/index.php?showforum=4 ) very well. It's an excellent resource. If you like that one you might also appreciate Jim's World VirtualPromote.com and SearchEngineForums.com and the SitePoint.com Forums too.
And to tell you the truth we essentially took one of our web sites off line since we were already beyond our capacity. As I mentioned above when I left actively working in my carpentry company a few years ago (I'm back there now) I handed over the website design to an employee and he sort of messed it up or at the very least it wasn't what I thought should represent the company. At the time we already had more work than we could handle so we shut down the front door to the site (it's still active inside where we set up client pages to help them see and manage their projects) to slow things down a little.
I totally agree with you that a well managed and well maintained website can be a spectacular marketing tool. With skillful promotion of the site you can use it a lot like a spigot on a faucet to control the flow of leads into your company.
View Image
contact http://www.sandforms.com rich o'conner tell him armin sent you. He did my site really a first class job.
Hello Stan.
I've always admired your work here at breaktime as well as your bravery for going up in those death traps of yours you call gyrocopters. You'll never catch me going up in one of those. ............The truth be known...........I'm just chicken!
In my opinion, You need a professional website that will reflect your professionalism/personality, Expressing your nature to take flight and your determination to build whatever it takes to that end. Unfortunately, you may not find any one here who can provide this. These guys know building houses not websites. Even if they knew some things about websites, you may be missing out on features that would have really served you. If your going to invest money you should go with someone who can do it right, less you find yourself with buyers remorse.
My bother in law builds websites for a living. He's been doing it for years. I believe he could serve you well. His email address is [email protected]
I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'm sure it will dazzle us all as much as the pictures you've posted here on breaktime in the past.
P.S. Concerning your stairway to heaven........Jesus is your stairway (John 1:51).......... Sorry Stan, The work has already been done. ;-)
-Terry Minor
Terry: I do have to stand up against that term.."deathtrap" being used for my gyrocopter. I understand why you may think that...and you are entitled to your opinion by all means. <G
But....the gyrocopter I built is by far the safest rotorcraft flying...short of the million dollar plus turbine powered craft.
A helicopter requires the pilot to be highly tuned in practising auto-rotational landings. Everyone of my landings is auto-rotational. There is zero power to that rotor in flight. nada...nothing. When the engine quits...or I just turn it off....it lands like a crow at less than 5 mph...many times 0.
I have flown these since 1985...and in my earlier years I did have junk engines in them.....with the result of having 18 real engine out forced landings. I never so much as scratched my machine or myself. I would take 50 engine outs in my gyropter to one in an airplane. My odds are much better landing at 5 mph than at 60-70.
That rotor does not need the engine to run. I could throw the keys out the window and dead stick it every landing. It lands like a crow.
Winds do not bother it....thermals dont bother it. Its probably the most misunderstood flying machine there is.
Stan
Well, it looks like you got a healthy response from your original posting, but I'll go ahead and add my two cents.
Firstly: domain name. Your domain name is simply the address which people type in to get to your webpage. I this case, I would suggest you register "stansstairshop". As of 3/2/06 at 3PM, that address is available. So folks would simply type in http://www.stansstairshop.com to go to your website. I'm a little paranoid when it comes to domain names...always afraid someone is going to snatch up the one I want. So even if you take a year to set up your first webpage, I would NOT delay registering the domain. That way, as long as you keep up the fee on the name, you keep the name and no one else can get their mits on it. While you're paying the fee, that domain (website name) belongs to you.
A website is basically just a collection of files that you upload to a hosting company. Not a whole lot different than when you attach a picture in BT and upload it to Taunton. By paying $X/month, you are renting some disc space on their servers and they are directing anyone who types in http://www.stansstairshop.com to your pages/files. The real work is the initial creation of the pages/files, but even that doesn't have to be a huge hassle.
I think your website should be a lot like your shop: very simple and functional. Easy to read, little scrolling involved, and as few clicks as possible.
Page 1: Home Page I know you have a logo on your truck, so your home page has your logo in the upper left corner. Next to that in text: "Stans Stair Shop". Below that is a VERY brief description of what you do. At the bottom of the page is your contact info (name, address, phone, email). The home page also needs at least a couple pics of your finished product. It will also have links to page 2 & 3.
Page 2: About Us This is where you can put any personal or background info. Also include your contact information (name, address, phone, email)
Page 3: Photo Gallery You can make this as simple or complex as you like. A variety of finished projects is a must though.
Viola! That is all you really need.
An example of a web hosting company... Yahoo: $12/month.
http://sbs.smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting/compare.php#close
Their "starter" package includes your domain name (stansstairshop), plus 5 gig of hosting space (more than you'll ever need), plus email addresses (so you could get email as [email protected]) and a bunch of other stuff.
jt8
"Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Mann Jong
"Stan, I've gotta ask, what do you want your website to do for you?"That's the key here."I have often wondered if its a genetic code in my brain...whatever...I have never had anyone so much as to be able to show me how to cut and paste. I just dont get it"I was in the same camp four years ago.
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"Front Page = B&D=Ryobi""It is exactly for people who don't know what they are doing and the results prove it.""As mcf says, those programs are the black and decker of website building. And worse."So untrue, but there will always be a battle in this department. I have an acquaintance in Europe that uses nothing but Front Page for his websites and the guy nets over seven figures a year! I also use FP and we have a sticky rate of almost 9 pages per visitor. Tack on 25,000 uniques each week and...well."Also, make sure you get you "own" website, i.e. http://www.stanfoster.com."Back to the original question, but keep it short, easy to remember, and memorable. I wish I knew that tip four years ago:("I would recommend that you seek out a Flash designer as this web application software yields a beautiful, dynamic web site."Ummm, it works sometimes but new technology can often hurt a website's performance or usability. Flash deigners tend to go overboard trying "new stuff" or use all that cool eye candy. Frankly I avoid flash sites like the plague if I have to look for the "enter" link. It all depends on the original question againI've also learned women are better designers than men. They seem to have a better grasp on color selection and shapes. Yes, it does make a difference. In addition women make the majority of buying decisions when it comes to home improvement selections, design etc.
Ditto on the key question - "what do you want your website to do for you?" Answer this before you go any further. A good webdesigner will make you answer it anyway. If you find a designer that will make a site without the answer to this question, pass him by...I think the issue with FrontPage is that it's easy enough that anyone can do it (anyone who can use a word processor, that is). The problem is that everyone shouldn't do it. Just because you CAN create a webpage doesn't mean that you (I'm referring to the general "you", not you specifically, HardwoodGuy) have a knack for layout, design, colors, writing style, etc. Just by reading the posts on this board, it's easy to see that some posters are better writers than others. Those that aren't good writers probably shouldn't be creating their own webpages, with FrontPage or any other program.I've used FrontPage only enough to know that I don't like it. Its drawbacks far outweigh its benefits (for me). FrontPage is a user-friendly way for non-technical people to create basic websites, and because of that it has limitations. As I said in an earlier post, to do more than a basic website (Active Server Pages, PHP, MySQL, Java, JS, database routines, etc), you'll need more than the WYSIWYG FrontPage interface. You'll need coding skills or a more powerful webdesign program, or you'll need to hire it out.There are some good-looking sites out there that were created with FrontPage. There are also some dogs. Ditto for Flash sites, Dreamweaver sites, etc. The issue is not so much the program, but the operator.
Nice Work Hardwood--
Be nice though and tell the gang how hard you have had to work to get 25000 Uniques a week... How long on line, how many pages in the site, how much spent on SEO (or time spent studying), how many incoming links and how long did you spend to make that happen?
We get 5-15,000 visits daily, but that is an 10 year journey.
The point is that aside from acting as an on line brochure getting anything more out of the web is often expensive. We built a strong foundation with content--that can be very time consuming and was in our case.
You can't just look at the dollars spent--have to count the time as well.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
"how long did you spend to make that happen?"I had plenty of free time when I deceided it was time to quit drinking almost four years ago..hehe. Yes, I have ALOT of time involved, but it's become more of a working hobby than anything; I enjoy it tremendously! If it had to be done by a "professional" I would guess the price tag would be way up there based on the 2,057 pages I have. I do have plans for someone to redo it with a shopping cart at a later date, but they will NOT touch my title tags!"We built a strong foundation with content"That's another important ingredient few understand. Content meaning articles with written text. Photos and graphics are good but I see so many sites that miss out by not explaining them in more detail. Keywords and key phrases is the goal and not stuffed in the meta tags. "how many incoming links and how long did you spend to make that happen? "6,000 last I checked, but I didn't realize the importance until 18 months ago. I do it at work when business is slow.
As I expected Hardwood,
The web and search engines have developed to the point that starting anything up and getting noticed is nearly impossible these days--unless you are fortunate enough to know someone with insight into ranking.
I paid nearly $10,000 with 2 firms to get ranking in the early days--changes they made gave us nearly no headway. That's when I decided to take a few months and figure it out on my own. Most of the information you find in forums and on websites is off the mark. There is no source of info that anyone can send you to. Once knowledge is commonplace--Google changes the rules and that general knowledge is worthless.
Nowadays we get tens of thousands of referrals from Google, and it is entirely due to having content that google likes--and thousands of other sites referring us with links. Every time Google changes the rules, we either rank better or I have to tweek my site slightly to enable Google to find the content again.
2 and 3 word phrases that include geographical names are rankable by small sites... but single word (popular) categories are heavy competition these days. It'd be like trying to run in Nascar with a stock charger... you can spend all the money you want--but you will get thrown out because to beat them you have to break the rules.
You guys are on the right track using it like a nice brochure to use in advertising and maybe allow people to type in General Contractor or Carpenter in Demoins.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
"Most of the information you find in forums and on websites is off the mark"One can pick up a jewel every now and then, but it's mostly seen between the lines requiring some thought.Can I offer a few suggestions on your site? As mentioned earlier in this thread. This site-- http://www.cre8asiteforums.com/index.php gave me some invaluable tips last fall that made a huge difference in sales.A few suggestions were:1- Move all your pricing up to the top of the page, or above "the fold" so people don't have to scroll. Many don't scroll anyway. If they don't see a price it's bye-bye and the back button.
2- Make your "buy now" button more obvious. I saw a suggestion of making it bright red or something that catches the eye. It works like a charm!
3- Make your prices stand out in bold red. Surfers don't spend much time on sites if they can't pick it up immediately. I couldn't find a "home" link when I reached some interior pages. Oh, there it is..at the bottom. No credit cards? I don't think I could stay in business without accepting them.Spend some time on that site link above. Put your site in the "website hospital" for reviews and listen to these folks. I was hesitant in doing so because I thought I had it all figured out. NOT! I thought all that was needed for a successful site was traffic. I was way off base and extremely glad I found the site!Best Wishes!
Thanks Hardwood... we take credit cards, and even pay pal. The home key should be everywhere--you are right. I attempted to have them fix that a few times... they didn't get it. (might be why I am so jaded with webmasters).
Anyhow... because they have created this mutant site, I really can't have anyone else working on it without a total rebuild.
We're going to give it some navigation and appearance changes within a month or so... but nothing major since we are heading into the busy season.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
John: I appreciate everyone response....but yours hits closest to what I probable will do. Just something basic...and a small monthly charge.
I dont want any business from this....just wanting to better showcase my work to prospective clients....LOCALLY.
I am going to pursue your yahoo idea. Sounds like a winner.
Stan
Stan,Glad to hear that you know what you do and don't want your site to do for you.When you're talking to the webdesigner, whoever you end up choosing, be sure to ask them about photo galleries. Your site sounds like it will be primarily a showcase of past projects. High quality photos (find a local high school or college student who's taken some photography classes and wants a few extra bucks - or maybe you're a photography buff) and a good gallery program will really make your site attractive!Good luck and be sure to post the link to your site when you get it up and running!Oh, and don't let the earlier posts about domain names scare you. I wholeheartedly agree that it's important to get a "good" domain/website name, but it's not like the bogeyman can read your mind and snap up your selection just seconds before you can purchase it. However, I would recommend that you be prepared to purchase the name before you go online to see if it is available. If the name you want is available, purchase it. There are companies that do searches on recently-researched names, and they'll buy names that people have recently looked up. You would then have to choose another name or buy the name from the owner. Have three or four choices in mind before you start looking, then have fun.Also, most of the major webhosting companies will take care of your domain registration for you if you sign up for their hosting package. My webhost automatically renews my registration each year for free (I paid for the first year registration).
Stan, in your eyes your stairs are just run of the mill, but to the rest of us they really stand out as something that belongs in fine homebuilding. I think many of the responses you got were seeing the grandness of your staircases and wanted you to create a website just as grand. But I always hate to see people put the cart before the horse, which is why I voted for a simple website.
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Home Page
Your logo in the upper left corner, text title: "Stan's Stair Shop" (in center top of screen)
Below the text title is your short description, below the logo are the links for "photo gallery" and "about us". Below the links, how about a pic of you standing next to your truck parked in front of your shop (so we can see you, the logo on the truck door, and the shop). Or maybe one of your aerial shots of the shop. Either way, it looks better when things are all green instead of dead of winter.
Below the 'short description' are a few sample pics of finished stairs.
Bottom of the home page is contact info.
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In its basic form, you simply have a page with several pics inserted into it and two links. Doesn't take a $1k program to create that. From there, you can just add stuff. So maybe make the sample pics link to other pages. So Joe Blow clicks on one of the sample pics and it takes him to a page with more/larger shots of that staircase.
Another picture you could have on your home page: map. A map showing IL-IN-OH with your build area highlighted (or whatever your area is). That will save you a lot of emails asking how far you ship your stairs. "Serving the tri-state area" or some such title for the pic.
Seems like you REALLY should work a gyro pic or two into the 'about us' page ;)
jt8
"Take your life in your own hands, and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Mann Jong
Stan:Ever think about just selling stair parts? I have ideas for you.
Hardwood guy: I have thought about selling stair parts...but I dont have enough of me to go around.
Guys....I appreciate the nice comments....but I am just being honest when I say I am just a little one man shop....that turns out nice stairs. Nothing grand.....just simple. I feel I have accumulated a few methods that make me efficient....plus I have never been shy with my prices. This combination has led to a good bottom line for me.
But in all reality....I would guess I make just a fraction of the income many that post here make. I make enough though.
Stan
"No one really serious about professional web design hand codes anymore."
Without addressing the relative merits of your post, I have to disagree with this statement. I hand-code all of my sites, and I have friends who are either pro or semi-pro designers who also hand-code their pages. (And no, we're not all members of some diehard hand-coding club.) It just makes sense. Dreamweaver, FrontPage, GoLive, etc are all useful tools, but there's nothing they can do that a hard-coder can't do. And a hard-coder needs nothing more than a text editor to do it. True, it might take a hard-coder a bit longer to produce the same page when compared to a developer, but the hard coder will have a much more intimate knowledge of the page when he's done. (not to mention that many web-development applications build table-based pages, which is generally just a good way to ensure that pages load slowly and have lots of excess code)
With that said, I will also say that I am now also offering content management systems as an option for my clients, because I want to be able to provide them with the ability to manage their own site content. CMS gives me the ability to make sure they can't accidentally mess up the layout and design, while letting them have complete control over the actual contents of the pages whenever they want, all through a familiar WYSIWYG interface.
Edited 3/4/2006 1:40 pm by torn
Torn,I am interested in this content management system for the customer, that you talk about.Could you give me some details ?Thank you.=0)
Geekbox hero who once visited the glass city.
I want to thank everyone who spoke up about having trouble linking through to my site. I tried, and even I can't find the link on my preferences page anymore.
Heck with it, I'll just add it to my tag line. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
FWIW, Profile, then Favorites.
Yeah, that way it works. But when I just go to my profile and click on "website" it takes me to a Taunton page, just like others have said. Do you know how to alter that?Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
Ok, I missed that one.I thought that there was a Website like, but I was looking for it down by the personal quotes.Go to the profile and then hit My Pref up near the top.The first entry if for your personal website.Clear everything out and then enter yours.I just tried it and have yours set in my profile now.
Yeah, it works fine in your profile, but I still get the Taunton site from my profile. I even deleted that line and typed in the url again and still no dice. Guess I'll have to e mail Taunton Monday and ask for help.
Thanks Bill. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
I figured out what the problem is.Prospero is in MA and by the time the electrons get their from the west coast they are too tired to make the change.Since I am half way across the country send me you electrons along with your login name and password, checking account number and bank name, and social security number.I will put of the electrons for a couple of days and feed them until they regain their strength and then send them on.
Well, that's probably closer to accurate than any solution I would come up with, Bill. Tipi, Tipi, Tipi!
http://www.asmallwoodworkingcompany.com
see the trouble you started....lolIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Torn - "[Jerrald Hayes]"No one really serious about professional web design hand codes anymore."
Without addressing the relative merits of your post, I have to disagree with this statement."
Torn to tell you the honest truth my saying "No one really serious about professional web design hand codes anymore." is arguable but probably more true than not and there is certainly always going to be a place for hand/hard coding (more often than not writing our Cold Fusion queries we don't use the tools in DW and instead hand code them) and just knowing how to hand code (understanding the code) is very important too. However at a house warming party for one of my brothers new house last night in a room full of web and database pros I brought up the subject and informally the vote went about 8 to 1 for using development tools and the hold outs for hand coding use BBEdit and still call it hand coding. it may not be as rich and robust a tool as DW but it's still a tool in my book.
"Dreamweaver, FrontPage, GoLive, etc are all useful tools, but there's nothing they can do that a hard-coder can't do."
Well I never said hard coding couldn't do what DW does. What I was saying however was that Luka's attack on DW was un-warranted and I think you agree that DW GoLive etc are useful tools.
While I do think hand coding can possibly lead to better "engineered" sites I will never think it lends itself well to "design" in terms of working out page composition and layout. My own personal thinking regarding getting good design is to "iterate often" (Tom Kelly, IDEO design). In other words come up with a design and then come up with another and another until you really do get something that starts to work and looks good and hand coding just doesn't lend itself to that kind of development.
A couple of years back with my contracting company we had a finishing job that involved painted walls where the specifications were that the finish was to be brushed on (so that it wouldn't get the orange skin of a roller applied finish). The day we started on the painting I found one of my troops actually applying the paint with a brush and told him doing it that way would take years and cost us a fortune. I had him put the paint on the wall with a roller and then you go back and hit it with a brush to get the brushed on finish.
My thinking regarding hand coding sort of fits in that model too. You can do the design and site architecture quite rapidly with a layout tool such as DW or GoLive and then go back in and tweak the code. There are even tools out there that you can run DW generated code through that will remove all your line breaks giving you tight code that is supposedly 20% leaner but their names escape me right now.
With that said, I will also say that I am now also offering content management systems as an option for my clients, because I want to be able to provide them with the ability to manage their own site content. CMS gives me the ability to make sure they can't accidentally mess up the layout and design, while letting them have complete control over the actual contents of the pages whenever they want, all through a familiar WYSIWYG interface.
So torn are you saying you developed your own proprietary content management system? While my brother developed a Cold Fusion based content management system for one of the sites he owns EMSVillage which is like a BreakTime for EMTs and we have a Cold Fusion Based enterprise portal too but as I mentioned above we generally recommend and use Macromedia Contribute since at only $79 it really just a great deal and the best fit for our smaller clients.
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Jerrald,
I think we're essentially on the same page regarding webdesign. To each his own; webdesign applications and hardcoding each have their benefits, drawbacks, and followers.
You said "So torn are you saying you developed your own proprietary content management system?"
No - I wish I had the time to develop one, but with the abundance of excellent free and low-cost CMS tools, I can't justify writing my own. I've experimented with several proprietary and open-source CMS tools, including Typo3, OpenCMS and CMSMadeSimple. (all three free and the first two open-source, so "tweakable" as needed.)
torn
"So torn are you saying you developed your own proprietary content management system? While my brother developed a Cold Fusion based content management system for one of the sites he owns EMSVillage which is like a BreakTime for EMTs and we have a Cold Fusion Based enterprise portal too but as I mentioned above we generally recommend and use Macromedia Contribute since at only $79 it really just a great deal and the best fit for our smaller clients."It's rare that I can jump into a breaktime conversation and actually know a bit about the subject. ;o)Content Management Systems...these can be great for certain clients and completely pointless for others.A CMS allows (or, at least, SHOULD allow) the owner of the site the ability to update content on the site themselves without having to understand HTML and the like. These can include Blogging systems like WordPress, Page editors like Contribute, or full on CMS systems like Joomla.I tend to build custom CMS tools for clients these days, but about half the time, even though the client really wanted it, I either end up updating the site for them anyways (as they just don't have the time) or the site doesn't get updated by anyone anyways."I just set up a new pure HTML naviagation bar at the bottom of the page and modifying the template or wrapper the site is based on and uploaded all the changed pages in just 11 minutes. 11 minutes! I wouldn't be able to type cut and paste those changes page by page nearly that fast or garantee that I could paste the code error free."To each their own. Some prefer automated tools, some prefer hand coding. Neither is faster/slower in general...it all depends on the developer. Both can be dangerous in the wrong hands.Sam is correct that OFTEN, non-hand coders depend way too much on their IDEs to produce their code/markup for them. They then can only judge the quality of their product based on the visual output. There are issues like usability and accessibility that are heavily dependant on whats under the hood that isn't always taken into consideration."I'm a contractor and could care less about messy code."But I bet you get pissed off about nails not fully driven in, warped 2x4s and bad mudding jobs. Bad code irritates web developers in the same way. ;o)
Darrel- "Content Management Systems...these can be great for certain clients and completely pointless for others......I tend to build custom CMS tools for clients these days, but about half the time, even though the client really wanted it, I either end up updating the site for them anyways (as they just don't have the time) or the site doesn't get updated by anyone anyways."
That's very true and we find the same thing ourselves.
"There are issues like usability and accessibility that are heavily dependant on whats under the hood that isn't always taken into consideration." Well true but usability is also a visual design issue too. Ever attend an Edward Tufte seminar? And the point I was making in regard to visual design is that hard coding is that it does not make visual design or rapid iteration quick and easy.
But that said I am not at all against hard/hand coding and we do do it ourselves. My point was that a categorical statement that Hard Coding a page will always be better than a DW page is just logically false. Once upon a time it might have been categorically true back around 1998-2001 but things have changed and in internet years fives years is huge and the WYSIWYG editors (maybe not all of them) have gotten better. And yeah there are still some WYSIWYG editors out that that are really bad if not terribly bad with regard to adding code (NetObjects Fusion for sure and I think another one is SiteSpinner) but if I need to produce a really tight page I can produce it in DW an go back in and hand code to tighten it up if I need too.
Really I feel like I am in a debate here defending the merits of CNC Nested Based cabinet manufacturing vs. Traditional Point-to-Point fabrication or Pneumatic Tools vs Hand Nailing.
"I'm a contractor and could care less about messy code."
I certainly never ever said that! Never. Don't try and pin that one on me! And to tell you the truth I don't recall hearing anyone else say anything like that. And I don't like messy quoting and attribution. Bad quoting irritate me the same way "bad code irritates web developers" (and bad code irritates me too, just where do you think I said bad code is okay?).
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"Well true but usability is also a visual design issue too."Of course. I wouldn't imply otherwise ;o)
"Ever attend an Edward Tufte seminar?"Yes."And the point I was making in regard to visual design is that hard coding is that it does not make visual design or rapid iteration quick and easy."And the point I was trying to make is that it depends on the user. There are times when whipping up a wireframe in DW's WYSIWYG mode is faster. Usually, when building sites, it's faster for me to do it by hand rather than deal with the auto-generated code.". My point was that a categorical statement that Hard Coding a page will always be better than a DW page is just logically false."I agree. The only thing that matters is the quality of the finished product. The specific tools used don't necessarily correlate to the quality of the final product."I certainly never ever said that! Never. Don't try and pin that one on me!"I wasn't but then remembered these forums reply to specific people. Sorry. That was just in response to another comment (not made by you)."That's okay blue, that's a choice you have made, but you are in a minority and a web designer isn't going to design for the lowest common denominator all the time."The great thing about the web medium is that minorities are much less of an issue than in other mediums. If your site depends on javascript, that's not a good web site. It's inaccessible to a variety of people and devices.Unobtrusive javascript, on the other hand, is a nice bonus for those that want/can use it.There are a LOT of similiarities with web accessibility and ADA construction methods. The typical complaint of most accessibility is that people think it only accomodates a minority, when, in reality, it accomodates all sorts of people.The store owner whining about the wheelchair ramp he has to pay for thinks it will only benefit the small percentage of his customers in wheelchairs (which, really, should be enough of a concern for him) but probably fails to realize all the other people it benefits: elderly, young kids, people on rollerblades, mothers with strollers, the UPS guy hauling in your packages, the moving crew hauling items out of the store, etc, etc."Let me ask you this, do you think ADA guidelines apply to ever single design choice we make in all the houses we build? Should all websites also have a Spanish language version too?"This is a baby-with-the-bathwater argument. Just because you can't translate your site into Klingon does not mean you should throw accessibility concerns out the window.Yes, all houses SHOULD adhere to ADA guidelines. Why? Because it benefits all, makes the house more 'scalabale' and usable over the long term, and doesn't really cost much more to do in the first place.Remember, accesibility isn't about helping blind people and those in wheelchairs. Accessibility (on the web, at least) Is making more of your site more useful to more people overall. That's a good thing.
This whole argument resembles the compilers vs assembly language debate of 30-40 years ago, and more recent debates over "home-brewed" vs canned applications, application generators, etc.I have several observations from this:First, eventually the application gets too large for the old hand-coding technology to be practical. That hasn't happened yet with "simple" web pages, but is getting there.Second, eventually compilers/application generators/whatever become sufficiently efficient that they actually out-perform hand-codes applications.Third, the real issue is whether a particular tool enhances or constrains the two (often conflicting) needs to enable USEFUL creativity and assure robustness and reliability. Frankly, some tools (in many different domains) do neither very well, constraining the ability to create what one wishes and also "injecting" unreliability.I think the discussion should therefore revolve around SPECIFIC tools and their relative merits in these two areas. The other discussions are of interest academically but of no practical concern.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Dan:I'm not in disagreement.IMHO, IDEs are helper apps. Just like an apprentice in the cabinet shop is. I wouldn't let the apprentice do everything themselves, but would certainly have them do a lot of the tedious work to let the cabinetmaker focus on the finer aspects of the project.
Many IDEs even I have trouble with (and I'm a compiler guy). But that's because they often try to constrain you to some "model" for development and/or presentation. But there are other tools that don't constrain you (in ways you don't want to be constrained).The point is really to use a tool appropriate to the job. Don't try to build a house using nothing but a whittling knife to cut wood -- absolutely nothing wrong with using a chop saw (or even a robotic saw, given the opportunity), even if you are a "master carpenter".
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
"Accessibility (on the web, at least) Is making more of your site more useful to more people overall. That's a good thing."And, given the simplicity with which an existing website can be offered in large-print or even audio (sometimes), why not do it? A couple of optional stylesheets, some consideration to how the page will render in an alternative format, and suddenly you're not excluding so many people anymore. (Some sites are even required by law to offer accessibility for the visually-impaired.)
"And, given the simplicity with which an existing website can be offered in large-print or even audio (sometimes), why not do it?"Exactly.And, that can easily be translated into a more universal statement that would apply to all sorts of fields:"And, given the simplicity in implementation of accessible features if planned for in advance, why not do it?"As for the law and the web, right now that applies only to federal sites and any company doing business with the federal government (in the US, at least).However, things may change. Just 2 weeks ago Target was just sued for having their site inaccessible.
"I'm a contractor and could care less about messy code."But I bet you get pissed off about nails not fully driven in, warped 2x4s and bad mudding jobs. Bad code irritates web developers in the same way. ;o)I said it, guilty as charged! LOL My eleven year old is a wiz at HTML and Flash, and is currently working on a website to be entered in a National contest; along with three other of his schoolmates. The principal has offered to pay him to redesign the school's website; it's currently FrontPage. The enrichment teacher who maintains the site has blocked the deal, as she will be unable to maintain it after my son goes to middle school. Anyway, my eleven year old son refuses to help me with my site because the code is messy........ain't that a kick!View Image
You need basically three things: A web domain name, a machine to host the site, and the HTML, etc, to implement the site.
Getting the domain name is easiest. You can go to somewhere like whois.net and pick one out. Note that there are a dozen different vendors that will "sell" you domain names (maintain the registration for you) -- whois is just the one that came to mind. They're pretty much interchangeable. (See also networksolutions.com, domain.com, mydomain.com, etc.) When selecting the name it's not unwise to also pay for any likely misspellings, etc. That way no one will, intending to go to mybuildingsite.com, go instead to mybuildingsight.com and get a porn site.
You can use your own machine to host the site, but you have to have an ISP that allows it. Likely you'll have to pay commercial rates (ie, $100-200/month) for the connection. Simpler and cheaper to pay someone else to host the site for you.
I'd recommend that you pick out a domain name ASAP, as they're all being snapped up by speculators. (Eg, if you form a company called BuilderBob, within a week someone will have snapped up builderbob.com, and will be happy to sell it to you for a few $$$. Better to grab the name first.)
Then find someone to host the domain and build the site for you. These can be separate people or the same person. A number of hosting services are out there that will host simple sites cheaply (maybe starting around $5/month). You can, if you want to be cheap, build the site yourself or get the geeky next-door neighbor kid to do it.
happy?
Yeah, And Coach Terrys' page has 8KB of no-longer-MS-supported Java script that, rightly or wrongly, more and more people are turning off for security reasons. Meaning that they have no clue that the hidden menus even exist.
Over 200 bytes of unneccessary code to use a gif as an empty cell filler and sizer.
A continuity break between the second and third main links because Dream Weaver has no idea.
An entire table row of redundant code at over 900 bytes whose only purpose is to set cell sizes which are also set in the individual cells by image sizes.
A page full of code that takes forever to parse.
But the page looks good even if it must be viewed in full screen mode only.
Yay Dream Weaver (sarcasm)
SamT
Sam, you remind me of another point about the "extra" code in mine...The important thing is not so much that there are some extra keystrokes in the source or not. The important thing is whether those extra keystrokes actually cause the browser to have to decide what to do with it.What tiny bit of extra code there is in mine... Plus all the extra blank lines... Make absolutely no difference to the browser.Not just in the fact that nothing appears on the page. But also in the fact that the browser doesn't have to parse any of that. Not an extra millisecond is spent by the browser, deciding what to do with any of the "extra" in my code.Why should I spend an extra couple of hours poring through all my pages and cleaning all that out ? I clean the foof from the page itself. I don't concern myself with what doesn't matter behind the page.The extra code that dreamweaver and the other programs put in, actually does something in some browsers. And all of it has to be parsed. The browser, no matter what browser it is, has to decide what to do with that code.Plus, front page especially, and the others to lesser extent, also put in extraneous code that not only has to be parsed, but can sometimes be security risks.As Torn said, these programs are good tools in the right hands. If you already have the ability to hard code the entire site, then you have the ability to identify bugs, time consuming extra code, and possible security risks if they are added by the program. If you haven't the foggiest, then the page you end up with may work, but it may also be full of bugs, backdoors, etc.
Geekbox hero who once visited the glass city.
SamT- "Yeah, And Coach Terrys' page has 8KB of no-longer-MS-supported Java script that, rightly or wrongly, more and more people are turning off for security reasons. Meaning that they have no clue that the hidden menus even exist."
What in heck are you talking about Sam? What do you mean "no-longer-MS-supported Java script"? It's interesting that I've never heard anything about that? Or are you just saying that YOU THINK more and more people are turning off java-script? While I do know some paranoid people and some people with really low bandwidth or slow computers do turn off javascript that number is certainly a tiny minority.
But still you are missing one of the real points regarding my defense of Dreamweaver. It took me under 5 hours to design and deploy that whole site. You can hand nail all your carpentry or you can use pneumatic nailers. You use a mortising machine or you can hand chisel all your mortises. If all these tools used properly didn't allow you to be more productive would they even exist at all?
Even if people turning off and not using javascript was an epidemic (it isn't) thanks to Dreamweaver I can rapidly and quiclky deploy a fix. I just set up a new pure HTML naviagation bar at the bottom of the page and modifying the template or wrapper the site is based on and uploaded all the changed pages in just 11 minutes. 11 minutes! I wouldn't be able to type cut and paste those changes page by page nearly that fast or garantee that I could paste the code error free.
The new supplemental Naviagtion Bar
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But even prior to making that little change you could still find your way to every important page except one, the podcast library page and I can assure you that none of Coach Terry's listeners have ever compained to either him or me that they couldn't get to or find the past programs page so they must have all have their javascript on.
"Over 200 bytes of unneccessary code to use a gif as an empty cell filler and sizer."
Well Sam that may be true I might have had the auto insert spacers when making auto-stretch tables preference turned on when making this site but ya know that has noting to do inherently with using Dreamweaver. It has to do with the designer. It's something you can turn on and off but then again using the same 1 pixel clear graphic over and over again as a spacer doesn't add a lot of unnecessary overhead to those particula rweb pages so big deal. What's your point in that regard?
My point is critizing luka site for the extra code was not to say that it made any appreciable difference in the loading time for his site vs. the Dreamweaver page because for such a small simple page the difference is not appreciable enough to ever be noticed. I was only illustrating a point in defending Dreamweaver against Luka's attack on it where he said: " They all build in tons of unneccesary code" which is just patently untrue (maybe five to eight years ago there might have been truth to that at times but it's just not true today). Even using Lukas javascript as he wrote it when I recomposed his page in Dreamweaver I ended up with a tighter coded page.
"A continuity break between the second and third main links because Dream Weaver has no idea."
I have absolutley no idea of what you are talking about in that regard.
"A page full of code that takes forever to parse."
Huh? Again I don't know what you are talking about. The page should load for you in 1 to 2 seconds on a 56K connection so maybe you have some connection problems on your end.
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Jerrald,
"I don't know what you are talking about"
I know that.
SamT
What a lovely little cat fight we have going...snide is so becoming...
Jerrald, I have all the java script turned off. I have a lot of stuff turned off. I go to a lot of sites and see blank pics and things won't work. I just leave and never go back.
blue
blueeyeddevil - "Jerrald, I have all the java script turned off. I have a lot of stuff turned off. I go to a lot of sites and see blank pics and things won't work. I just leave and never go back."
That's okay blue, that's a choice you have made, but you are in a minority and a web designer isn't going to design for the lowest common denominator all the time. That's a choice the client and the designer make, who they are designing for.
Let me ask you this, do you think ADA guidelines apply to ever single design choice we make in all the houses we build? Should all websites also have a Spanish language version too?
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Edited 3/7/2006 10:09 am ET by JerraldHayes
Betcha didn't figure that even this topic would turn confrontational, huh?
Stan, follow the common sense guidelines that your customers likely use in finding you. Look around to see whose work you like, check their references, and contact them to see what they can do for you at a price you wish to afford. The rest of it should be of no more relevance to you than the technical details of your stair construction is to your clients. Find a professional whose work you like and let them do their job, just as you'd hope of your clients. Enjoy the process...enjoy letting someone else take care of you. Don't sweat the details.
I just now read all these replies.
I do want to keep it simple as possible.
I am not seeking any business from it...
It is just to have a quick place for "local" prospective clients to better view some examples of my work. That is all.
I would guess...that yes it would generate potential work ....if I wanted to travel. I dont want that...I dont need that. I would not be able to take care of that as I am LTD. So I would more than likely be turning down almost if not all new leads that this site would generate.
Stan
Stan:Sounds like what you really want is just a portfolio online. And, I agree, that's probably the way to go.For a lot of small businesses, a web site, first and foremost, is the replacement for the traditional yellow pages ad. People will want to google your service + location and be able to find you and/or if they've heard of your company, just google your company name.Your site, of course, should also provide some means to contact you.One inexpensive option may be to consider a blog. If you pump out new projects with some regularity, updating a blog with new photos of your project can be an easy and effective way to build a web presense and amass a nice collection of portfolio projects to show clients.
I would suggest that you keep the end design simple and easy to navigate.
I don't appreciate pictures that take forever to download- even on DSL, Flash intros or goofy background music.
I'm sure you have your pet peeves from surfing, also.
Keep all that in mind when you build your site.
Lots of luck.
Jerrald my point here was to give you a little bit of friendly advice from someone who knows a little bit more about web design and web design tools than you do and to tell you (again) about coding problems that all WYSIWYG editors cause.
As a quicky design and layout tool they have their uses, but the coder should always go thru and cleanup after their WYSIWYG tool.
Any time you have your tool set for absolute layout, the default, that means that you are designing for a specifice resolution, and that mean that many people will not see what you envision. If your resolution is greater than thiers, they will be forced to scroll horizontally as weell as vertically.
Coach Terry's page loads for me in about 19 seconds. It's full size is 96KB. About 38KB of that is JScript and 46KB is images. I have a USR V-Everything, 56K modem, connect at 49,333BPS and have optimised my MTU for my ISP. You will not find a dial upper that downloads pages faster than myself.
"doesn't add a lot of unnecessary overhead"
At what point does a little unnecessary overhead become too much? You've used over a full packet of unneeded OH just in coding those two (2) spacers plus the 43 bytes, at one packet each, (576 bytes), they take.
By optimising the page size as strictly as possible, it makes it much less unpleasant for the many people who still cannot connect at anywhere near 56K and it makes pages 'snap to' for everyone else.
Javascript disabling is an issue for designers. Turn your own J and VB scripting off and surf for a bit. You will find that many sites have script-disabled detectors written into their pages and will tell the surfer that scripting must be enabled for the site to display properly.
I must have had a brain fart thinking about MS not supporting Java Scripting, I should have been thinking of Java VM.
Mea Culpa.
About the discontinuity in the main menu. Look at the white space at the right side of AboutCoachTerryBtn.gif, It is marginaly wider than on the other images you used as navigation. all 3+KB of them.
You won't be able to fix that without redoing the entire page layout in Fireworks, then reinserting it in DW. If you had even just used three tables for the layout, one for the main nav bar, then used text links with a repeating bar-arrow connector image and you had somehow, I don't know how it could happen accidently, but if it did, you could have fixed it in seconds.
It's not a critical problem and most people will never see why the page "just seems a little off." It's only those who have done a lot of hardcoding and spent hours looking for and correcting those little snafus that will see it. Like a trim carpenter immediately notices every poor fitting joint.
Annneeeway. . .My point is that no WYSIWYG tool can code as tightly or as perfectly as the human brain with a text editor.
That being said, no really tight code can match the look you can get using absolute postioning (fixed size tables) and images.
I use a 'blade left' saw and code for fast downloading over esthetics(|;>)
SamT
sam,
would you provide a link to a high end hardcoded site? i am curious to see how it compares to something like what these guys create http://www.2advanced.com
Will you guys lighten up?I was one of the first responders to Stan's quest for a website, and was immediately blasted for using FrontPage. I'm a contractor and could care less about messy code. I'm happy with my website and have had nothing but compliments from my customers and friends......some of them IT wizards who ramble technical gibberish at social gatherings which I'm really not interested, understand, or even care to understand.It sounds like Stan is looking for the same thing I was... an electronic brochure. I'm busy as heck and never travel more then twenty miles from my home. I'm not looking for National Recognition. My web address is blazened on the side of my truck and people can see what I'm about and contact me through the website. Frontpage was an easy transition from using programs like Excel and Word....and it worked for me, as well I'm sure, millions others! It's what whatever works for you!View Image
WOW...too funny. This is getting worse than political threads...Bwahahaha
Where'd you get the template from? I bought the FP program when it first came out and had great "luck" building a site with it back when in the early 2000's but now that I've tried using it again I think I may have lost some brain cells because I can't get it to do what I want again. When I get some time I may try and start all over again but your site looks just fine. Its all I need...its just a business card with more room...thats all I need.
there's many templates on the program I have but what makes yours any different? Why do you say it's easier than the program I have?If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]