Trying to figure out what to do with this porch.
I showed up to look at another aspect of work on this house.
They wanted me to look at the steps that come out the door of this porch.
First questioin – the steps are 3/4 cedar on a “deck” framed ( posts, etc ) structure. The top of the 3/4 is basically flush with the door threshold. It would be difficult to shave down the top of the structure to go with 5/4 or 2 X. I will shave it down if I have to in the end. Joists are 12″ o.c. Any suggestions on what 3/4 material to replace the – too soft for treads – cedar?
Second Problem –
As I was looking at the tread problem, I glanced over and saw some tell tale moisture issues with the cedar ” Trim ” ( cracking at joint, paint stretching, bulging ). With a quick ” first look ” inspection I found the sill trim to move with just hand pressure and some pieces that I could have just pulled off the house.
After digging into this now a bit further, I have more info. I am not sure how I want to put this back together. My first goal is to make sure that there will not be any future leaks, seepage, or moisture issues. I know that this goes against my first goal, but, my second goal is to be least intrusive in my actions. I know that I could tear the whole room a part and start with a better situation but I would rather not go that far.
The room is constructed as follows; Typical 2X framing – good condition – a little damp at the bottom, but good condition. Now, Pella windows fastened directly to framing. 3/8 sanded ply for sheathing over nailing flanges. Cedar trim over ply, flush to window exterior plane. A large Z flash at the bottom running behind the ply out to the edge of the slab and the down. The detail squares above the windows is the ply, with cedar placed proud, and a molding placed in the reveal for interest. The workmanship is actually very good – the design from the framig out is failing.
Random info;
The factory applied flashing on top of the windows has settled “anti shed” and is then running the water to the ends of the flashing and dropping it behing the cedar / sheathing.
In a different neighborhood I would think of wrapping with alum, but this should be a painted finish.
Dont see where a house wrap would help in this cut up scenario.
I feel uncomfortable relying on caulk and paint to keep moisture out. Especially with seasonal movement. I’m usually a bigger fan of mechanical flashing.
I could pull the cedar, Ice and water the whole structure, and replace – but the cedar would still be sacrificial. Maybe I could go with Azek.
There is no good place to flash and dump water back to the surface with this design.
Gotta run. Will get more pics today.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Replies
Any suggestions on what 3/4 material to replace the - too soft for treads - cedar?
Ipe is much stronger than cedar, so that would be a good alternative.
Looking at the first photo, I don't like the way the plywood is butted right down to the flashing. I would want to see some slope on that flashing to guide the water out of the joint/corner. Also, I'd want to see a gap between the bottom edge of the plywood and the top of the flashing so that the plywood doesn't just sit in water and wick water up between the ply layers.
I have almost never worked with plywood when used as a siding product (where Z-flashings are installed between courses), though, so I could be wrong.
The detail squares above the windows is the ply, with cedar placed proud, and a molding placed in the reveal for interest.
I would suspect the above "paneled" details are also a problem. The water is probably getting through the raised stops and behind the bottom "rails". Then it either gets trapped there and facilitates rot, or migrates down to the head flashing, where there are the problems I described above.
Panels look pretty, but I'm not sure how to effectively keep the water out. A sloped edge on the rails might help to at least shed the water, but you'd still be relying on the paint seam (or caulk bead) an awful lot.
Edited 8/24/2007 4:33 pm ET by Ragnar17
Looking for Ipe available in 3/4 ? I don't even want to think about thickness planing it.
I agree with the rest of your thoughts. Same thoughts here. Posted because I'm hoping somebody has an "off the wall" idea or real world fix.
I'm thrown into a weird spot here by the last guy going off on his own and trying something different. I have a funny feeling that the previous owner, who had this work done, wanted everything flush and the guy "designed" this to fit that need. If nothing else, this is a good example of why not to "just do the work for the check".
ThanksRemodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Looking for Ipe available in 3/4 ? I don't even want to think about thickness planing it
I don't think you'll have any trouble finding Ipe in a 1x format (the yard I go to stocks it in 1 x 4, 1 x 6, 5/4 x 4 and 5/4 x 6).
I wouldn't want to put it through a planer either! :)
window installed direct to studding is worst of the problems. I would have to rebuild the wall to get it right.
Short of that, replace, close your eyes, and cut a big end off the caulking tube....
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if you must keep the "window direct to the framing detail" i would cut back the ply so that the cedar also is directly to the framing, & Z flash between the ply/cedar & the cedar/window. Also would apply ice & water or 30 lb felt directly to the framing, but its surely a less than ideal situation
I don't "have" to keep the window situation if It's not workable. Hell, I don't even have to do it. I'd rather not tear out all of the exterior, the windows, and rework all of the interior if I can find a way to remedy a small but lethal problem on the exterior.
And realistically, as I told Piffin, Even if I pulled to add sheathing - I would still have the same problem. I would just be dumping the moisture onto the sheathing.
I agree with the additional flashing needed some way. Can't really do the ply to cedar flash very well as the cedar is applied over the ply. I will definately have to do some sort of flash at the top of the window elevation running horiz.
It's starting to look like a redesign of the top portion, band aid the sides and super flash the bottoms..??
thanksRemodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
What I meant was, DONT reapply the cedar OVER the ply, instead cut back the ply so that the cedar is also applied directly to the framing. Now you can install Z between the cedar & the ply. I sometimes have trouble explaining what I am thinking. you now do not have to pull windows & rebuild. I would still sudjest membrane behind at least the joint between the cedar & the ply where the Z would go. Perhaps you could just loosen the ply enough to get membrane behind this joint after cutting the ply back. On the bottom do the same thing except also remove the flange on the window so that another Z can be installed behind the window & over the cedar. On the sides you could also do the same,although the Z wont flash in the traditional way, it will trim out the butt joint between the cedar & the ply. In other words, keep the cedar & ply in the same plane, directly against the framing with membrane behind and Z between the butt joints
Edited 8/26/2007 1:43 am ET by LIVEONSAWDUST
Gotcha.
Kinda thinkin' maybe I'll pull cedar, leave ply as sheathing over windows, flash and membrane along with cedar reinstall. not sur what membrane to use - ice n water, house wrap, or that embossed rain screen that I've seen. I think I'm leaning towards ice n water. As long as the ice n water and interior vb don't make a bad combo.
I attached a couple of sketchup captures ( my first ).
Seems that this will give me a better moisture shed - kinda along the lines you were thinking.
I am pretty sure that the section above the windows won't go back up with the inset. I would rather see that be flush or a surface treatment, not inset. The top section is about 22 " and I don't know what material I want to use up there - MDO, cedar, lap?? Maybe that will be HO driven.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
IMO , housewrap is not a good water barrier, its intended use is as an air barrier and secondary water barrier. I would use ice & water or 30 lbs felt. I'm thinking the wall area involved isnt large enough to worry about a double vapor barrier being created.
Just came back from a guy I network with.
Drinkin' and comin' up with a plan for this project.
I agree with you, I'm thinkin' ice n water.
Talk to HO tomorrow.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Yeah, I know.
By the time I pull trim, siding, windows, There aint much left of a project like this.
Even if I pull windows and sheath - replace, I'm still stuck with nowhere to really "flash"..?? It seems I'd still just be relying on caulk. And still dumping water onto the sheathing when the caulk eventually fails - still not a great situation.
More random thought;
Starting to think that if I can redesign the upper portion - then good flashing to "dump" out at the top of the windows. Then let it ride down the sides of the windows. Catch any water again at the bottom of the windows again for another "dump" out onto an aluminum "skirt" ( counter flash fitting up under window) at the bottom.
Will I have a problem with Ice & water and a vb on the inside? - Trap moist?
Thanks
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City