I just got done pricing a trim job for a customer with 800 ln ft of crown, 600 ln ft of base and 200 ln ft of casing. And stain grade cherry trim is outrageous in the unfinished state.
Crown is almost $8 a ln ft for the profile the HO picked out. Base and case aren’t that bad. But total I have about 10k in material alone.
THen I had a thought, if I buy a molding machine that would pay for itself fairly quick. Starting with this job.
http://www.redmond-machinery.com/w&h_206.htm
I’m interested in this machine, I haven’t priced out cherry 1x stock yet. I’m optimistic about this working. Why wouldn’t it.
Any experience with the machine, I also looked at a Jet JPM-13 for $500 on Craigslist. But thought I’d like a new tool so I wouldn’t have to tinker with it much.
The way I look at it is, I’m married and have a garage. WHat better excuse to be in that garage?
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Piffen has one - I've used one - first class machine, tooling is extra -
try to get all the cherry out of the same lot/tree and tell them you want heartwood -
The only way I think that would pay is if you were not able to buy the profiles or species you needed. It's fun to mill your own stock, but as a rule I don't think it "pays".
Ever wonder why "holistic" doesn't start with "w"?
I'm a little sticker shocked at the price of the trim, thats when the thought occured to me.
I need to find a wholesale hardwood distributor to make it a little more affordable.
I think making your own trim would make some money. Small jobs not so much but bigger ones would.
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matt,
I have a woodmaster molding machine & my advice is buy one. You will not save money for awhile but the quality of the molding is much better. Over time it will pay- particularly in hardwoods.
Hi, stay focused on making molding and u will do well. If you get greedy and decide to buy rough lumber, square and plane, you will be amazed at the time you spend on this. buy s4s lumber, the hw seller likey has bigger planers than you. best bet is ck w/ a doof mfg/ mill and you may find someone w/w a gang saw and they will sell you the molding blanks all sized.
Dave
I'm glad you started this. I see they have the variable speed deal available as a separate lit.
if you buy this thing - get the multi-pass kit also. The W&H was designed to do the job in a single pass, but can't always do that well, so we came up with a way to do multipass work.So they have now soled the only things I saw as shortcomings for this thing.one more thought to consider - I don't know yet what the motor options are now, but I got a Baldor 3HP and wired it for 120V. it draws 29.5 amps at that on start up so it can blow breakers. Wired for 240V it would draw less than 15 amps. Keep that in mind.
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I would not want to try to make a living only by running a millwork shop unless I were in an area with a lot of demand for specialized architectural millwork. But where it pays for me is that I can make the casings etc to match what is in a hundred year old house that is no longer available, and do it on my schedule. Before that I had to go to a custom millwork shop, pay through the nose, and wait 2-3 months.Another way I used this on one job was to salvage some very good antique heart pine by remilling from a 13/16" x 3-1/4" to 5/8" x 2-13/16" getting rid of all the bad stuff and using fine lumber that was otherwise unuseable and irreplaceable. Made a job that was impossible into one that was doable.
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Gunner is lusting after a new tool case, but you and I know how to really lust after tools!
;)
That machine is one I would jump top trade mine for and I have been very happy with my older model, which is the same they have been putting out for a hundred years. There are a couple older threads here with lots of pictures and discussion.
I got mine because I had a much larger job to mill custom trim for - in poplar so it paid for itself all in one job, but it cost only about 15-1800 IIRC. I have used it five times as much since that job. One advantage is that once they know you are capable of doing the higher end millwork, it opens up more of the high end jobs ( with the headaches that can go along...)
My machine does not have the variable speed feed motor separate and that was my first thought - that it is something you would need for cherry - and that you might ought to consider the other competing machines with the variable option. Then I saw that link and said WOW!. The variable was added, but the basic machine is the same old dependable cast iron and chain drive inside. They have made inp[rovements to the table also that make it easier to use, and i had to wire in a switch and cord to mine.
I figure that as a general rule, I want to be making at least 200LF to make new knives. I charge the job for the cost of the new knives anyways, but that is a practical minimum.
With S4S poplar, I figure one dollar a lineal board inch to charge. So if I am making a 4" casing I charge $4/ lin ft. A 1-5/8" base cap is two inches so I charge $2/Lin ft. Cherry is harder to work with. It is splintery, and I have honestly never milled it other than a few pieces on the router.
The machine is loud and it will produce a lot of dust and shavings. That is something to consider if you are in your own garage in a residential neighborhood. I am in the woods. Sometimes I mill on the job - my larger jobs usually run a winter when everyone is gone...
You also need space in and space out. One man can do this alone, but you can save a lot of running back and forth to have helper, and just laying hands on it while it pases through can absorb enough vibrations to eliminate a lot of machine/chatter marks.
so IMHO, your one job is probably not quite enough to pay for this W&H on this one job, but it is nice to own. It will plane to 7" wide and 1/4" deep ( in the softer easier working species. I would limit to no more than 1/8" in cherry unless you slowed the feed rate....there is a learning curve too. Practice with something other than cherry.
Crown is a two sided process so the labour cost is more. One pass with the beveled corners that fit wall and ceiling, then do the face side.
You learn to read the wood too, to avoid tearout and wasting lumber.
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Thanks for insight Piffin.
It's not carved in stone, more or less scribbled in crayon at this point. I think it's a good idea, more than a tool, an investment.
Most trim jobs it's just standard colonial base and case. At times we get into custom profiles, but not very often.
It's something I'd do to make a little money here and there, not all at once.
I'd like to see if the boards I cut with my alaskan mill can be cleaned up through the planer. I have a bench top Dewalt that I might make a few cleanup passes with before I put it through the W&H. Probably wishful thinking on my part.
I still have to get the job signed with the HO's, at least ehich way they want to go. They had me price it out as all cherry replacement trim and doors, or just oak door slabs and crown.
That will help me make up my mind on it, oak would cut the job in half so the money probably won't be there to buy one then. Cherry would make it awfully tempting. Woods favorite carpenter
My 12" Grizzly benchtop will only take 1/16" or less, so I am mor elikely to plane rough stuff less than 7" on the W&H with its planner blades.http://www.williamsnhussey.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=WNHYou might also check the W&H site and call them directly for pricing - could be better. They are expensive on blades tho - there are plenty places that cut blades cheaper than they do.
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Once again thanks for your input. When I posted this I knew you had experience with one and hoped you reply.
Now all I have to do is find out which way the HO's are going. Moneys not an issue with them so the wife wants cherry. She'll probably get it. Woods favorite carpenter
Can you make tongue and groove flooring with the W&H?
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Yes. They have stock cutters for that.but like these guys are saying, some things are better done on bigger machines. That is one of them. Flooring on this is VERY time consuming and we only did it to salvage invaluable materials.
you'd have four passes and four set-ups for flooring. One on surface, one to relieve the back, one for the tongue, and one for the groove. A four head cutter would put this to shame. Four heads spinning do the whole piece at one time.
Crown is two passes and two set ups.Casing or base is only one.I would not think of doing this for stock that can be purchased at a decent price. it is the custom stuff like my historical patterns or antique wood - or your cherry where it has a benefit. It just can't compete with stock pine on the rack
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Thanks Piffin.
I just looked at a Hawks 3-in-1 Wood Planer looks like a great tool as well.
My uncle has one set up in Homer so I am going to go look at it this week.
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Forgot the link
http://www.rbiwoodtools.com/woodplaner.html
He has it wired into 220 because of the 5 HP motor. Woods favorite carpenter
Hadn't heard of Hawks before. But I see that is the old RBI. That and Woodmaster are the competition. Sears used to market an RBI I think too.
My memory of the reviews is that this is the most versatile as far as multi useage, but the one that takes most time to set up for each operation. Remember the shopsmith?anyways, I looked at all three machines before getting the W&H. That wider plane capacity is nice if that is your only plane. Can't say how the millwork part of it goes.For custom cutters, making three of them is bound to be more expensive than making two.
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Remember the shopsmith?
Do I ever, I have one in the garage that holds my coffee cups.
I tried selling it for $200 and still can't. You want it? ;)
Those are interesting points and very good ones. When I go look at my uncles this week I'll report back.
He said the planer was very nice. He hasn't done any molding with it yet.
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I would take it if I had room for it and if we were closer.
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"Thanks to our Woodplaner’s exclusive new corrugated knife design, blade set-up takes 5 minutes or less - instead of 3 or 4 hours."I see they solved their long set-up time
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I ordered their DVD so I can see this thing and what they claim it can do.
With that and my visit to my uncles shop I should be able to make an educated desicion.
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You mention relieving the back.I've noticed this on virtually all commercially produced trim and door jambs as well.Why is it done?The reason I ask is because the guys I work for build their own door jambs with regular 1x.We've also used it for two piece baseboard.Is there a need to cut those channels in the back?
the relief of the back allows casing to jump any protruding dw/plaster and lay tight along both edges - it also weakens any inherent twist/tension/wang existing within the wood, making it possible/easier to tweak it into position - necessary? - sometimes...."there's enough for everyone"
I do not see a need for jambs. For casing, the center relief helps the installer fit it tighter.I was speaking of flooring I think. The relief there also helps you get good fits. I have laid flooring with no reliefs and it does tend to rock and roll and snag up occasionally on subfloor
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to keep in mind when having custom knives cut....DO NOT send the compnay cutting them a fax of the pattern you want!A fax can often skew or stretch an image so the proportions of what you get are different from what you want. I learned this on a 7" cornice cutter. Had to fight with them but finally got it recut.Send them a CLEAR and DIMENSIONED drawing of your own or a sample of the desired replication
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Paul- when sending a fax of a profile , just place a legend of what an exact 1" at the bottom and any distortion . will refered to that measurement . so far so good, but the belt and suspenders approach with a detailed drawing will take out any guess work .
That scale would need to be in both the X and Y co-ordinates. It would also depend on the receiving fax machine not skewing paper halfway through, as sometimes happens - less often with more modern fax/printers, but still...In my case, I had asked the girl at W&H if I should mail the drawing or if they could recieve a fax. She answered in the affirmative on the fax, with no qualifications.My drawing had the radii specied clearly but what I recieved had an elipse, not a radiused curve.The first excuse given was that faxes cannot be depended on to give true profiles or scale.
I challenged them on two points -that the knives did not have the specified radius, and that I was told a fax was fine in the first place. It was a long 'conversation' but they agreed to recut the knives
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point taken....
thanks for the reply.in my mind I had dreamed up that on flooring it was to ventilate it somehow,but your reason makes more sense.
There is something to that too. Brand new flooring from recently harvested is kiln dried, but there can still be interior moisture curing out of the wood
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I'd like to see if the boards I cut with my alaskan mill can be cleaned up through the planer.
No idea what you're running for chain, but the milling we're doing (emphasis on production) I wouldn't want a planer with less than 1/8" removal capacity. And 7" wide would be pretty silly here.
Clearly, you can do fine financially with custom moldings. I've known several shops that did little else. But to compete you really need to weigh your tool selection. Overhead vs production. A great benefit to millwork is that little space is required.
I'm still kicking myself for passing up an antique 4 head molder. OSHA nightmare, sweet machine that came with $20k worth of cutters... for $1k successful bid. Didn't have a shop at the time, so only dragged home a 12" jointer and stroke sander.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I'm running a plain 3/8's pitch chain. I tried a ripping chain, it was double the price and the results were the same.
This wouldn't be production work for the most part. I'm looking to have something to do on weekends at home instead of being on the job site. Money isn't a huge issue either. If I make half or quarter of what I would make on site so be it.
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We tried 4 brands of rip chain. Never got decent shavings. Finally convinced my friend, the owner, to give up and go to crosscut chain. I was using it successfully to quickly rip 8/4 oak with my smallish saw and a Micromill.
You got the same results with crosscut and rip chain? Wow. We found rip chain immensely slower. Still a mystery to me.
Mostly we're interested in large beams. 6x10 (or larger) x whatever the tree will yield. Got a nice 38' red oak log waiting now that we'll get 2 from. 8/4 from whatever's left over.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Nearly the same results on the board, the rip chain was slower than a crosscut chain.
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Cherry is harder to work with. It is splintery, and I have honestly never milled it other than a few pieces on the router
A better method is climb-cutting with a shaper and stock feeder. I've milled miles of cherry, used to go into every Stelling banjo neck made over the mountain here. System I set up allowed me to simultaneously run a tablesaw and shaper. Fast production, no tear out.
While I still think a W&H would be nice (and would jump on one in a flash if I found a great deal), a large shaper suited me better.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
climb-cutting - that's where the cutter digs down in instead of chipping up and out?
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Better described as cutting with the rotation vs against it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Maybe...
Backward feeding, cutter tries to climb the stock. The cutter exits the stock where it's already cut, therefore no tear out problem. Stock feeder necessary to keep the stock from being thrown across the shop. Works with a router also. Stock feeders typically come 3-4 speeds, you choose knife marks/in.
My previous employers had me milling douglas fir, 4 large houses/yr. Fully 50% of the molding rejected until I got them to buy the stock feeder. ROI complete in a few months.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
How big a chip collector?
Best place to buy knives?
Thanks Scott
I often work with just a 10x20 tarp on the ground and pull four corner together and drag it all over to the shavings pile over there.On the job, I keep a garbage can or two lined with contractors bags and haul it home to the chip pileI do buy mine direct from W&H but I know a lot of guys get elsewhere so I was Passing on the info. I think I did get one set cut locally by a guy who knows a guy....
Any machinist can do it I suppose.
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I would reccomend this:http://www.coastaltool.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/a/delt/ap300.htm?L+coastest+jrcj3014ff01cd01+1200480649With this:http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-International-Collection-Cyclone-Separator/dp/B0000DII6XPortable and reasonably cheap for the proper CFM's you will need.
As for knives there are usually companies in most citys that will make them for you. Others will be happy to mail them to you if you want to pay and wait.
Where do you live?
http://www.bairdbros.com