Read on the web the other night after being tipped off via the local news about an article detailing the rankings and salaries for almost 200 job classifications throughout the country. Oklahoma ranked 40th or worse(usually worse) in nearly all of them.
The average wage paid to a carpenter in Oklahoma is $12.67 cents per hour. Insane!! The ranking versus the rest of the country was 47th, average wage is $26,370/year.
How does this compare to where you are?? Secondly, if this has been a problem in years past in your area, was there anything you could do about it, or is the problem still there?
Spoke to a good friend last week in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, a builder of true fine custom homes, and he tells me the the “spec home” builders/hacks have invaded what was a safe market and the market is rapidly free falling. I know there are people in the DFW area here, has this affected you as well???
This is not a rant, at least it’s not my intent, but for those of you who are knowledgeable of this or slightly bitter, feel free to let fly….
If you aren’t one of the one’s I’m talking about,you shouldn’t have any complaints….
Replies
Average wage may not be same as prevailing wage. not sure. You can call a union hall and find out what prevailing wage is in your local area. You can in Northwest Indiana anyway. South Bend, In. is about $2 a hour less than Michigan City, In. and they are in bordering counties.
Somebody has to be lowest.
Union Carpenters are in the low 19 buck range, but you've got to travel out of state to get that......most of the work I've heard of is Louisiana or Arkansas and Las Vegas.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I have some thoughts.
Those figures would tend to be reflective of the official reported incomes and wages.
I wonder how much happens in the underground economy. It is stronger in some states than in others. It is possible that OK is weak on enforcing things or that the subculture there creates much more than average "opff the record" income than other states do.
Also, Isn't the cost of living lower there than in most states?
All things are relative
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I know in relation to places like most of California, it's far cheaper...I'm right in the OKC metro and the cost of living is pretty high, at least compared to some of the other states I've lived in. Upstate NY is far cheaper with the exception of gasoline and cigarettes, and with the cost of gas here that gap is closing to within about 8 cents. From talking to all the trades here it seems like there is no value placed in construction at all, and am not sure what the deal is with that. Plumbers are in high demand right now here and they aren't paying over the 20 dollar an hour range..most of them in other places are doing far better.Some have said it's due to the high residential volume of carpentry around here, but from talking to outfits hiring commercial workers the pay isn't much better, not sure what the answer is, I was kind of hoping to hear from some GC's that have been in the biz for a few years and they could provide some input...maybe as the day goes on.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I cant talk about OK but here in SoCal the illegals have been driving the wages. For just about every trade and labor type job.
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I knew you were gonna say that
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I knew you were gonna say that
Hey, no channeling Duane <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I think that may be a factor here as well, but it's not the only reason. They are having an impact on the trades. This isn't to say I blame them solely though, the owners of these outfits are willing to hire them and they are the real problem. As long as they are legal I say more power to them, we all have the right to make a fair living, but the owners need to get some scruples and ensure they are indeed legal to live and work here. Until somebody cracks down on the owners who employ these people that problems isn't going to go away.....more soon...
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Here in Tulsa that average may be accurate as well but on the high end work I'm involved in, it's pretty low pay.
The company I'm trimming for is paying around 37k a year with full benefits, (vacation, insur,holiday and tool reimbursement).
Here, too.
It is difficult to compete against foreign workers willing to work for $10 an hour without benefits.
I do not understand why anyone would be willing to work for so little, but it must be better than what was left behind. Trouble is, it is driving down wages for the rest of us.
Home prices are only going up, though.
Guess if I want to make some real money, I need to get some illegals and build some McMansions...
NY- I spent some time in Tulsa from mid '80s to '02 and at the end of '02 I remember there was no end to new construction and I could pick and choose enjoyable reno jobs at $20 and work my own pace.
Mornings you could see the GC's loading laborers at the corner convience stores.
A buddy plumber down there now is loaded for bear at $65.
I still can't believe the new housing developements there being built on a foot of dirt over garbage bags in a closed dump.
be planting a tree in the front yard of your new house.
A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
No matter where I've lived, it takes time to develope the clientele and reputation to get the best paying jobs. A guy who moves every two years will always be on the bottom of the pay scale
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top pay for a residential fire sprinkler fitter (union ) has remained under the $25.00 per hour rate for a few years now so.cal. The people making the real money are the presidents of the big builders.
Toll Brothers 50.1 million, KB Homes 50 million , Pulte Homes 10.8 million must be nice to be at the top.
You will probably find that the average bid for each trade has stayed the same for a while. I worked for a company that did tract home work for one of the builders you mentioned, and they actually demanded a LOWER price AFTER the project had started. This was, naturally, after making a sweeping change that required MORE work and MORE material. Granted, it wasn't much from my point of view, but contractors, even long time ones, regularly lose bids on projects for $10 a house.
Sad thing is that the homebuyer is the one that gets screwed by all these big homebuilding companies, despite all their slick PR stuff and "warranties".
Contractors can only "cut the price" so much, then things get cut out that should be there, all in an effort to save money and try to make a profit.
That is why a 3000 square foot home has only 8 pieces of conduit coming out of the breaker panel. Costs money to run more pipe.
That's why the second floor is so much warmer than the first when the AC is on- crappy duct design, but it is as much as the builder allows. Costs money for that extra supply or return ducting.
That's why the toilets fall apart- cheapest crap the plumber can get.
That's why windows need to be replaced in less than 10 years- cheapest crap the carpenter contractor can get.
I could go on.
It all isn't because the subs are doing crappy work, sometimes it happens though. Looks good when it is all done, and that is all that matters. Depending on when the home closes, problems may not be discovered until aftre the warranty period.
Tract home builders suck.
All you need to do is start a company that does tens of thousands of homes a year, keep the jobs going right and make a profit big enough to pay that kind of money, and you too can make millions. When you have that kind of responsibility on your shoulders every day, you ain't workin' for $250 day.
Both other posters are right. But add in 'supply and demand', and you expectations as an 'outsider'....
I've no idea what food or others commodities cost where you are. Here - a small island off the western coast of BC, Canada - we have the highest gasoline price in Canada and probably N America...$1.07 per litre (abt $5 per gal)... our food is all trucked in, our industries are real estate and construction, and it's a hippie haven. And also there's a thriving 'cash' market - many of my subbies want no papertrail. So-o-o-o, how does this equate? It probably look like most of us either cannot affrod to work here, on paper anyway, or that we have to have 3 jobs in order to do so. (42% of the properties are owned by Americans, the majority of whom stay less than 5 weeks per year. The cheapest house on the market now is 1/2 duplex for $275,000.) Add in all the other non-residents, and you'll see that our local going rate of $15 for a carpenter isn't just a figure, just a variable. Workers coming in from off-island are 'surprised at what we earn' - whether it's high or low i've yet to determine - but for myself I will charge up to $45/hour for renovation work, will pay $35 for someone who knows what they're doing, and $20 for general workers. And at $35/ hour I can barely keep up with the cost of living here. Rumour has it that finish carpenters get $60/hr in our nearest big city Vancouver....
As far as expectations - you've probably earned a lot more in NY, but factor in all the other variables and see if you are actually worse off or not.
cheers
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
Being from the NY/Canadian border area(Kingston was less than an hour away) I can remember in the good old days buying gasoline in Canada far cheaper than in NY and the Canadians used the "Imperial gallon" to boot, so it was a REAL good deal....and this was in the day when gas in NY was running around 72 to 75 cents per gallon, back around 1978.....I've got a duplex here, 3 bedroom, running 750/month..I had an entire remodeled Victorian in upstate NY, new everything, the rent was 450/month and that was in the good part of town, my natural gas bill was cheaper even though we had those minus 40 degree months there, water utilities were cheaper, and the wages were far better...a laborer up there started in the 15-17 dollar range....here they want trim/finish carps for 10-12.....gas there now is running $2.26/ gallon...here it's about 2.18 or so........People are in a frenzy here to buy new homes, and the builders are more than happy to slap one together for you, I think it's in the neighborhood of 95-125 per square foot for a "tract" home, or a "McMansion" as I've heard them called....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
We need to make our representatives responsible for their actions. We need to demand that that they post their voting record on their own website. We pay for it we should say what goes on it. Also whatever legislation coming up that concerns them should be posted. That way we can let them know what we think. Support the minuteman project. Here's a link for you. I truly thought it was a sick joke when they said the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h02ar.html
The rich are getting richer that much is true. The poor are also getting richer, it is just a smaller % of the total. Back in the 50's and 60's about 20% of Americans were below the poverty line. Now it is less than 10%.
Did you study the #'s? The only ones who made gains were the top 20%. 80% of this country lost income. How about the top 5 %?
edit: Is there a reason we should not demand that our representatives place their voting record on their personal government website.
Edited 7/9/2005 10:42 pm ET by APR328
I studied the numbers. The % of total income earned in our country by the lower income groups is smaller. That does not mean that income dropped for those groups. The piece of the pie taken by the rich in recent years is bigger, but it is a bigger pie, due to gains in productivity and size of economy. So even after the rich take there proportionately large piece, there is still more left for the rest of us than there was at the beginning of the data set. If the pie were not growing the number of households in poverty would have doubled. To the contrary, it has been cut in half. The poor are getting richer too, just at a much slower rate than the rich.
Remove the elderly, who were lifted out of poverty by Medicare and Social Security, and then see what is left. I think you will see that the percentage of people, particularly children, in poverty has increased.Of course, it depends upon the starting time point.
Poverty rates are higher for children than for adults by about 5%. This sad statistic has remained stubbornly consistent even as overall poverty rates have improved. However it is not true that the % of children in poverty has risen. In the late 50's/early 60's 25% of children were in poverty, now it is about 15%. Improvement has slowed in recent decades.As for the elderly, I'm sure SS & Medicare has helped some, but the decrease in poverty has been similar in elderly, adults, and children alike. Poverty is a complex problem. Obviously a strong economy is helpful, but only to a point. If people are not trained and educated enough to take advantage of opportunities, they might as well not exist. Personal demons of substance abuse renders many unemployable. Poor health drags others into poverty. Improving things now will take more than just a good job market or increasing minimum wage. Adequate jobs and wages are out there, if the people are in a position to take advantage of them.
These numbers from the same source make my point:http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/f03ar.htmlLook at the bottom set of numbers in 2003 $.The richest 1/5th have seen incomes increase 100% (doubling) since the 60's and the middle 1/5, for instance have seen incomes increase by 50% in the same period. Not a bad gain but shabby compared to the top group.
Edited 7/9/2005 11:49 pm ET by basswood
The poverty threshold depends on the size of the family.http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov1.html .I wonder what % of all families went from single to dual income in that time frame.That also dilutes income when you have two making what one used to make.
edit: As to the difference in our two charts I see money as power. With 5% wielding so much power, and I believe easily influencing the other top 15%, and only getting stronger, I do not see good things in the future. This was supposed to be a government of the people by the people and yet we have the president calling the minuteman project vigilantism. Bush is proud to call the ultra rich his base. I don't know I just get angrier the more I think about it.edit: As to putting this back in relation to the thread, I believe one of the best ways is to make our representatives accountable. They need to have their voting record posted on tier personal (government=our) website.
Edited 7/10/2005 1:22 pm ET by APR328
Edited 7/10/2005 1:39 pm ET by APR328
In most two income families, the second wage earner must exceed $17,000 to $19,000 to break even, given added expenses of child care, professional wardrobe, transportation etc. With the poverty line at $18,000 for a family of four, a second income is not a cost effective option for most families in the bottom 1/5th. They are actually better off, in most cases, with a single income.In a typical dual income family, the second wage earner should make $10/hr. or more to expect any rise in standard of living. This all but eliminates this option for low income families (unless they have a family member or friend or employer providing free or very low cost child care).On poverty, in the late 50's and early 60's about 20% of Americans were in poverty. Now it is 10%. The historic post WWII run in our economy that has been so good to the wealthy, has been the tide that lifts all boats.I am a blue-collar skilled laborer, moving from the 2nd 5th to the middle 5th (in census-speak). My move to the middle of the middle class is being funded by the upper class. They are the ones willing to pay me a good return for my efforts.
I'm in NY. Our average house in this county is fast approaching $600,000. Not too surprisingly our wages have to keep up. Besides someone has to be 47th. :-)
That's a bit lower, but not very much 20-25¢/hr, than around here.
I have not heard of any "glut" nor "slump" in the skilled trades market up in the DFW area. The "office" help market is still volitile, though, company-supplied ride and gas card and cell phone (or sizable allowances for those) as still "required." The scary part is that mediocre supers, estimators, etc. are getting what "good" ones are . . .
But, that's life, too.
I know some supers who are working for a large company here in OKC, dealing with the big contract on Tinker AFB, they're getting 18 an hour and considering themselves lucky, but I'm getting off track.When I worked for one builder last year some of the subs he had working were using labor from south of the border, and rumor had it they were making 3-4 dollars an hour and happy to get it because it was far more than they'd be getting in their homeland. I've got nothing against any man working to make a good life for himself and his family, but I mentioned before we need to start looking at the GC's and subs who hire these people and ensure they are doing whats right as well. I know the old arguement about they have to do it in order to compete, but if the playing field is level then their arguement is a hollow one.It's not the illegals who are the problem, it's the higher ups who pay them crap wages and drive the market down. However, there should be more stringent measures in place to ensure our fellow workers have the required Green Card and then the pay would go up....or would it???I don't blame the illegals from wanting to come here to work, but come here legally and then join in, is that asking too much???If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Re: "I don't blame the illegals from wanting to come here to work, but come here legally and then join in, is that asking too much???"The question that comes to mind, given the ease at entering the country, the casual acceptance of the employers and officials and the handouts available to illegal residents and their children: Why would anyone bother to go to the trouble of visiting an embassy or consulate to officially and legally enter this country?On the wider issue, what can be done to obtain better wages for carpenters, it comes down to definition, demand and organization. As long as there are few, if any, requirements for a person to call his/her self a carpenter wages will remain low.Along this line journeyman licensing helps. As long as anyone who carries a hammer and wears a tool belt, whether or not they actually know anything, can call themselves a carpenter conditions and respect will be hard to come by.Demand is the second part. Used to be something generally referred to as 'the ratio' for electrical work. By law you had to have a certain proportion of licensed journeymen on site. At one time it was 1:3. Meaning that for every three helpers or unlicensed journeymen you had to have one licensed journeyman on site to supervise. Builders didn't like it as it gave licensed journeymen power. Power expressed in terms of control and wages. Which is what your shooting for.It remains unknown how journeyman licensing and a ratio could be applied to carpenters. There has to be some way to differentiate the knowledgeable and experienced carpenters from the novice and helper if people are to show they deserve more pay or benefits. The states demand of a certain proportion of proven to be qualified carpenters, a ratio, would work with this by guaranteeing demand.The last part is organization. Usually represented in terms of unions. If the need for qualified people is established. If the definition of qualified persons limits availability. And if the majority of qualified people will cooperate to control the conditions of employment the situation can be improved.Doctors and lawyers have accomplished this. They have narrowed the definition of doctor and lawyer. They have raised the requirements and standards to limit the numbers of those who qualify. They have modified the legal definition of doctor and lawyer to support these changes. They have modified the laws to require the use of each profession and exclude alternative practitioners.
In doing this they have bolstered the standing of both lawyers and doctors, raised their pay and vastly increased their power. They groomed and manipulated the social, legal and cultural environment for their own benefit. They have locked in their advantages even if it has been at the expense of converting what used to be 'poor but honorable' professions into some of the most reviled and distrusted, but powerful, blocks within this society. If carpenters are going to benefit themselves they will need to do the same. At least to some extent.Unfortunately the present social and cultural environment has been groomed, by fifty years of anti-labor rhetoric, propaganda and a steady media drumbeat, to be hostile to labor power in any significant form. The entrepreneur, speculator and mogul are the heroes of the day. That these people only count and rearrange beans produced by others gets overlooked. So much so that 'golden parachutes' are the norm. An incompitent tardesman gets fired. An incompetent CEO gets a multi-million dollar bonus for leaving early. Talk about failing up.
we need to start looking at the GC's and subs who hire these people and ensure they are doing whats right as well
Which gets tricky. What do you do if you are a contractor and need "just labor"? When you need a strong back, not a sharp mind. Not a lot of choices for those jobs.
You can put your skilled labor on it, which tends to be expensive, and occasionally irks the help.
You can go to one of the labor services, with their middling-random pool of labor--this is also expensive as they are getting about $2/hr taken off the wages you're paying them to be documented.
Or, you drive down to the street or street corner where there are folk who will work hard for the day, for cash wages--but have no documents at all.
None of these are very good options. (Ideally, of course, the skilled help would pitch in on the less-skilled jobs, so we all get done in a professional manner we can all take pride in--that's an ideal, sometimes better realized than other times.)
I'm not entirely sure that unskilled labor drives down the wages of skilled, though. The market (and margins) seem to have more effect there. But, that's a personal impression.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
We're always going to need unskilled labor on job sites and also "so-so" carpenters, who can do the rough stuff, etc. I'm really looking above and beyond the people who need constsnt supervision to make things right. The major issue I see here in the OKC area is the fanatic demand for new housing and the builders who just slap stuff together, this being the primary use of ANY unskilled labor, illegal or otherwise, and the builders desire to make as much as possible as quickly as possible. Dupe the homeowner, drag out getting to the house they just sold as far as warranty repairs go, leave a sour taste in the new H.O.'s mouth, because, hey, they bought the house and they aren't going to be needing another for awhile, so why worry about satisfaction. The builder's around here forego the quality crews and use the cheapest possible, making it nearly impossible for the quality outfits to stay in business...they have to drop their rates to get work, in turn having to hire less qualified tradesmen, and soon they're either out of business or have devolved into hacks.I think the consumer is the biggest avenue to blame, but not by his intention of getting the best value for his dollar. Rather, it's from his lack of knowledge of what quality is and he doesn't recognize sloppy craftsmanship. A good friend of mine is a true custom home builder in the DFW area and the spec home builders have saturated their market, so guess where they're moving into now?? You guessed it, just change your advertising some and now POOF!!, you're a custom home builder, shedding the "spec home" image. We've convinced anybody with more than 2 brain cells that it's easy to build anything...just look at the "you can do it, we can help" b.s. out there....anyone can build a house, so why should I pay a builder 200K when I can get it for 150K?The illegals (and the unskilled who call themselves tradesmen), the guy who knows he can't be considered a real carpenter, mainly in part because he doesn't own any tools beyond a hammer and tape will still be readily hired by a builder, the above mentioned won't demand a higher wage because he is either grateful just to have a job or he knows he doesn't "have the package" to justify it. McMansion builders are a scourge and the scourge is spreading to more than just the southern states. And just to clarify...if you are a McMansion builder, have the desire to build a quality home, use legals as your labor force in addition to skilled workers, then Bravo to you!! My hats off and I have nothing but respect for you, because I'm sure you are fighting an uphill battle every day against the builders who hire labor in the sub minimum wage range, and that does happen here in my neck of the woods every day......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Two thumbs up over here :)
Thanks for the thumbs up..I sometimes wonder if I'm being too cynical on here. Guess I'm both frustrated and ticked off over the situation in this area. The illegals and unskilled are driving the market, and I can't blame them, but the builders need a good dose of ethics and I think we'd all be better off.....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Since I forgot to ask in the last message...what part of the country are you in???If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Midwest, Chicago area.
Thanks for the info.Down here the union is weak as I just told somebody from Canada. I wish I knew of some way to get people to realize the value of good craftsmanship down here but am unable to figure it out. Unless I'm working for myself and actually bidding work, there's no way I can command a wage in the 25-35 dollar an hour range by working for someone else.With Davis Bacon wages up north, a carpenter started in the 25 per hour range and it only went up from there. Even on non D-B jobs, a carpenter could start at 20 an hour and could expect a raise in the near future if he proved his worth.In addition, up there he was expected to be there 15 minutes ahead of starting time, work a full day with the allowable breaks, lunch etc...and not to "fire one up" during those breaks.We don't have the glut of illegals up there like here, and if you are a so called carpenter but don't really have all the skills to do what a real carpenter does, you get signed on as a laborer and maybe eventually work your way into a higher position, if you start using some of your paycheck to buy tools and bring them to the site and show to the supers you are willing to learn and work harder to make more money. Showing up late and tweaking all through the day will get you fired in a heartbeat there, down here it's almost expected.....I worked for a crew last year (for a real short time) down here that looked at me strange because I was there every day (on time) and didn't fire up a fattie or share theirs at break/lunch.The potential home buyers are the ones who need to become educated in fine craftsmanship and refuse to accept slap happy hack work, then the conditions may improve. For me , I'm about as discouraged as I can be and will be happy when the moving truck is all packed and headed northeast..........If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
For $12.67 an hour I would be staying home and being dad to my kids more and we would live on my wife's income!
I talked to the union last fall. They were paying $29 plus extras worth $37 an hour but they had two years of form work an hour from my house. I work for alot less but I generally work for people I already know and no two days are ever the same.
Have a good day.
Cliffy
Edited 7/9/2005 11:56 pm ET by cliffy
I hear that!! The union here is very weak, I spoke to them and most of their work is outside the state, still haven't figured out how that works though. Their wage is only in the 19 dollar range. I guess this is just one of the areas of the country where the cost of living is high (compared to where I'm from) and the wage scale is low. The fiancee and I are planning on moving back to upstate NY here in the next couple months if nothing breaks down here. Guess I miss the St Lawrence river and all those trees.....The construction unions aren't real strong there either, but cost of living is less and there is good value in construction and carpentry, if you get a job as a carpenter up there you'd better be good or soon you'll be gone and they'll find somebody who is....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Post a note to Gene Davis> He will tell you what is cooking in and around Lake Placid. Beautiful area.
Have a good day.
Cliffy
Thanks Cliff...I've spoken to Gene a couple times in this forum, would love to be able to find decent work up in those parts and maybe settle in there, I'm from Gouverneur (just a couple hours away), really enjoyed living up there and am planning on being back there soon. Ft Drum is allocating big bucks for construction there for the next 10 years, carpentry is going to be a big part of it.If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
will do!!! And, for the record, I'll be more than happy to do so.....
If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
"The average wage paid to a carpenter in Oklahoma is $12.67 cents per hour. Insane!! The ranking versus the rest of the country was 47th, average wage is $26,370/year."
You can't simply compare wages from location to location. Sure you'd make a ton more in NYC, but it would also cost alot more - everything (housing, gas, food, etc) costs more in the northeast than it would in the midwest.
The only way you could really make a comparison is if you compared the ratio of wages to cost of living in both places.
I agree with your assesment..with the following exceptions...I did live in upstate NY for almost 40 years....the cost of living is about half what it is here in the OKC Metro area...and yet the wages paid here are about 2/3'rds of what can be made up there. Granted, living in the NYC area is far more expensive then here and folks are coming in droves here from California and can't believe how cheap it is here.However, when one can make 60-75K yearly as a super in upstate NY (with a lot less work available) and to have them make offers of 9-10 an hour for a carpenter here and under 40K to become a super here, given the high C.O.L. , it makes me wonder why there is no value placed on construction here. There are plenty of jobs available if you want to work and travel both, a buddy just landed a 72K/year to start job traveling to the northeast and back....the local union has plenty of work outside Oklahoma, but very little here because the $19.00 dollar an hour wage paid to union carps here is too much....????? What do employers expect to pay a decent carpenter with good experience around here??Laborers in U.N.Y. are generally started in the 10-12 dollar an hour range and down here employers are asking for experienced trim and finish carps and expecting them to jump at the 9-10 dollar an hour offer..tell 'em you want 20 to start here and they hang up the phone....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....