I already know the answer but i’ll ask anyway. We are just finishing up a kitchen. The job has gone well but it has taken much longer than expected. Alot of tedium involved on this one.
How (in the future) can I safe guard myself against this happening again? Can you put in some sort of clause about additional days required?
I started out looking like i’d make out okay on this job but with the added time and additional trips the numbers dont look near as good.
Get expert guidance on finding a fixer-upper that's worth the effort.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
So you're looking for a reverse-not to exceed-clause?
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
One hting I found helpful back in the days I was in business was to keep a daily log book. Document each task that was done the time it took to do the task(s) etc. Total up the hours for the various tasks and categorize them. After a few projects done this way it might give you a better ahndle on the time required to do a project or you can extrapolate from your notes.
Give a good faith estimate and work time and materials. It's the only way I work. I get paid for my time and the customer gets charged exactly for what is required to complete the task.
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 3/18/2008 10:37 pm ET by Riversong
When doing kitchens you are relying on too many parties. Didthe designer order everything? was anything damaged, did you have all the corect info? I agree with riversong, give a good faith estimate (add 25% to what you think the time will be) and charge t and m.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I'm also a big proponent of t&m. You can explain to clients that it removes incentive to cut corners, esp. on materials, if they're reluctant. Word of mouth becomes everything- they have to trust you not to pad hours. I don't like working for folks who don't trust me anyways...
What do you guys use for a % markup on mats. (if any)?
>>> it removes incentive to cut corners, And INCREASES the incentive to NOT be efficient. Like having master plumbers dig trenches. Not figuring out what tools you will need, so you make 15 trips to get tools or supplies. Not making sure you have a sufficient supply of the things you use on an on going basis like caulk, or nails, or shims, or whatever.I will never, ever hire someone on time and materials unless I know that they are well organized, efficient, and quick.If you don't know your business well enough to give firm fixed costs estimates that work for you, then you should consider different work. Or a different work model. You should be able to identify potential pitfalls, and price them out ahead of time.You know that suppliers ship wrong/broken/missing parts.
Get the parts well in advance and inspect them.You know sub-contractors are flakey/have other priorities/don't do what the are supposed to do.
Figure out how you can do most (or all) of their work for them, keep a number of subs in your roledex, and just bring them in long enough to make final connections.It takes you an hour each day to figure out what to do.
Layout the work from beginning to end and keep the layout with you at all times. Work more hours in a day so you don't restart each day. Learn how to use fast curing compounds so you can do drywall completely in a day. Figure out the materials that keep you from having to go back multiple times.Most of all, make sure the skill level of the work and the skill level of the worker are appropriate. Master carpenters should not be doing demolition. Master electrician should not be drilling holes. Skilled equipment operators shouldn't be digging trenches with shovels.
As I said, the clients (HO's or GC's) have to know that you don't pad your hours- whether by goofing off, or by working inefficiently. Everything you said about efficiency is true- If it takes 1/2 hour every day to set up and break down, obviously your efficiency goes up when you work longer days. That's obvious to the point of being not worth saying. I work t&m, and you better believe I buy my nails by the keg, not little bitty boxes every morning.
Because that's the right thing to do, not because I make more or less money.
To me, it's the difference between an adversarial outlook and a collaborative one. I'm an HO. I'm a GC. I'm also a carpenter. Shoot, I even have a degree in architecture. And I'm a ditch digger when that makes sense too. What can I say? People trust my judgement about those decisions and I have plenty of work, even (especially?) now.
Again, all your points about efficiency are very true. If your subs aren't working that way, I can understand your frustration. And if they're deliberately being inefficient, they're thieves.
BTW, what is a "firm fixed estimate" ?
I don't like t&m because I don't get paid enough for what I know, I'm only getting paid for what I do.On kitchens, I will give a best case scenario bid, I add a contingency for things I'm pretty sure will slow things down. Everything else is an extra. Basically t&m, but written up as change orders.If I'm working for someone who doesn't like that, I will charge for a detailed proposal. After going over the kitchen with levels, squares, strings, and lasers... checking the designers plans and order sheet, I'll give a fixed price contract with an unforseen circumstances clause... covers anything that's not my fault or can't see: mis-shipped parts, buried junction boxes, old leaky plumbing, bees in the walls, etc... it's amazing what you can find<G> Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
"bees in the walls, etc... it's amazing what you can find<G>"
well ... that explains that jar of bee's I saw in your van.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Just don't ever call me Honey. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
I knew there was a line left in there somewhere.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
at great risk of being criticized I actually just charge hourly rates that cover projected overhead and profit. then I share actual time sheets and job costs with the customer as a way to demonstrate that I am merely part of a team that includes the customer in attaining the goals of the project."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Exactly. You and the HO are on the same side. As is the designer, and the GC, and all the subs, if there are any of those guys.
Sure, some folks abuse t&m. We all know that strict legal contracts can be jokes too. (I have never seen drawings that were 100% correct. Not once.)
What markup do you add to materials? 10% is sorta standard here.
k
I've been in the custom cabinet business for over 25 years and for my end the same can be true of extra unplanned trips and additional time .
I try to work only by bid and clearly identify the scope of my responsibilities and any additions or deletions will charged at the job rate or bid .
Some jobs usually the more detailed ones do take more time and trips when all goes good , when the wheels fall off all bets are off .
On really big or difficult highly detailed jobs I raise my installation rate from the average job installs this usually pays for those extra trips .
Imo learning from tracking your jobs and installs and learn to anticipate everything takes longer then you think it will , you need a cushion in a bid .
Can I really charge the client extra because I had to scribe crown against a wavy ceiling ? Live and learn , move on , charge for it going in .
good luck dusty
"How (in the future) can I safe guard myself against this happening again? Can you put in some sort of clause about additional days required?"
You are saying that you want to put in a clause that says if you screw up estimating a job or start off by doing something wrong that you can just keep charging the customer more and more until you get it right?
You have not give anykind of clue about what happened.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I'm usually pretty acurate with my estimates. The big thing that threw me off was the bow window.
I had to completly disassemble it to install a new window sill (which came out great by the way).
I gave the HO the bill today, and he was understanding about the overage. The other thing that killed us was mitering all the bead board panels.
You need a change order system, If it is a delay that is billable, this will document the added cost, and added time to the original schedule. If it is a delay due to your subs, consider a back charge, but at a minimum, make them sign the CO, and write it up as no charge, let them know that it will be used to evaluate the sub for future projects. And if it is due to your own company's mistake, still use the CO, to remind your crew of it's accountability for proper execution. Use this to evaluate employees, and your overall pricing structure. Also use it to document delays due to inspections.
The sum of the COs need to be added to the original completion date, and land at the exact completion date, if there are any voids, you need to get on your supervisor to make sure it happens in the future. You can even tie any incentives you may offer into the accuracy of this.
Were the added days a result of changes the owner made during construction or did you simply miss the estimate of time required?
If you missed the estimate of time required and nothing changed on the job it's your fault, live, learn, and move on.
If the homeowner made changes along the way then they should pay for the additional work but only the additional work.
That's all under the assumption you had a fixed price contract.
For change orders we have two processes, one is a letter sized sheet with a grid on it that the guy in the field can have the owner ok and sign off on. It has a spot for the date, what the change is, and the initials of the owner. It states at the bottom of the form all work will be billed at $60 per hour and materials/subs plus 25%. This is used for minor stuff, ~$500.00 or less.
Along with it we have a T&M Log sheet. It tracks the date, work performed, daily time, and cumulative time. The guys must get the owner to sign off on it at the end of every day so they can see where they are at. We use the same sheet for small T&M jobs. Keeping the owner's informed and up to date has almost eliminated any problems I've had with billing.
The second is a larger changer order form I type up usually with a fixed price attached, sometimes not, which requires a down-payment of half up front and half due upon completion of the change.
If you want to avoid being responsible for an accurate estimate you could run all your jobs cost plus or T&M. You may have a problem convincing people to take on all the risk.
I also use a combination of T&M and fixed price for some jobs. For example we have a project coming up in which we have to re-locate the main panel to move a wall. Most of the job is fixed price and easy to figure, relocating the panel the electrian could not come up with an accurate number unless we removed the sheetrock and opened everything up. So we made a SWAG at the number, I padded it a bit for margin of error and the owner will pay the actual cost of moving it. The key is to be up front and honest with them, explain why it's variable, and most reasonable people with go with it. If they are not reasonable about it I probably don't want to work with them anyway.
I think the key is figuring out what can be accuratly estimated and what can't and adjusting your documents to reflect that.
I'm also a fan of Buck's "About a day" method. Nothing takes less then half of a day anyway.
A little from column A a little form column B. He had some changes. Two other things, we pulled the paneling and all walls and ceiling were covered in plywood.
the other problem was the yoyo that removed a load bearing wall to fit a refrig in the refrig hole.
The trim issues were extra time mitering paneling and rebuilding a bow window. Oh, and the custom Oak pieces, two shelves, a bow window sill, and a laundry chute door. All these things required I bring my whole shop over to join, plane, and rout the wood.
Thanks for all the replies. I usually tell people that things may change once we get into the job. I'm just used to being closer on my estimates.
I really wasnt that far off, its just the extra trips with gas at about $35/ gallon kinda hurt.