Hi Everyone,
I have been planning a small addition and kitchen and bath remodel. It has been in the design phase for so long it has turned into more of a renovation. During this “planning stage” many more important issues have made their way to the top of the list.
I have been putting off many repairs with the idea of having everything done at one time by the same company. Now some of the repairs needed have become urgent and I cannot put this off any longer. My main concern now has become the mechanics. No sense having a beautiful marble bath if the plumbing leaks or clogs!
Anyway………one (of many) question I have is, how much detail does a contractor/remodeler need? I have started a list of items that I want performed and as much general product information as I know. I am thinking that the bid process will be smoother if I supply as much info as possible but the jobs have become somewhat extensive and varied, and, from my point of view, the bidding would be so time consuming.
Frankly, all the details are killing me! I have been a lurker on this board for a long time, reading everything that might be something I need to know even if I don’t understand it! I have even printed out instructions on how to install a custom shower floor! So if I want something done a certain way (as learned on this board) do I need to detail that out? How many contractors/remodelers would run away if I do that?
This brings me to another question. Should I do this in two stages? (or as far as my budget will allow) I have read ALOT on this board and it always amazes me how much some of you know about EVERYTHING! BUT it also concerns me that I would be hiring, say, a carpenter, to do my addition and remodel and expecting him to also correct plumbing, insulation and electrical problems. There are a lot of small remodeling companies that I considered hiring but it seems as if the scope of the work needed now may be beyond their capabilities but I really don’t know if that’s true. Naturally, a contractor subs out the work to the pros but would I have the daily contact with the person in charge? Hand holding, so to speak?
Mechanical problems are severe ice dams (due to no insulation?) with water pooring in around first floor windows. Roof leak around dormers due to high snow, plumbing issues and probably a new furnace and duct work. Am I making this out to be more than it is? How many of you are now shaking your heads and chuckling!?!!
Stay tuned for the bidding questions!
Replies
My $.02 worth ... if it's not all detailed and in writing, either plans or specs, or both, you will not get what you want. And then, with many contractors, you still won't get it unless you make sure they do it the way you want. I see many disputes where the homeowner has done extensive homework to learn the "best practices," but too many contractors do not know, understand or care about best practices. Maybe you will get lucky and get a contractor who is an active participant on BT!
Now that would be a dream come true!
I'm glad you answered. I thought maybe I was being too detailed but did not want to leave anything out. I can't imagine having to bid or prepare for a project by having to guess what a customer wants.
There was a time when I would have signed on the dotted line and let someone work out the details but after reading some threads on this board, I have realized how unfair that is to someone trying to do a job and not knowing what the job is.
Do you think maybe the furnace and insulation should be a separate project from the remodel?
The suggestion that you find someone that you trust and work with them to develop the specifications and design you want is an excellent one. And yes, it is not fair to the contractor to be trying to guess what you want. The reputable ones won't. The others don't care and will bid it cheapest and when you get concerned later, they will ask you to show where in the plans, specs, or contract, they agreed to a higher standard.But it is not just "what" you want, but "how" you want it done. (This assumes that maybe you won't be lucky enough to find a BT contractor.) Another current thread I just read gives an excellent example. You can spec a "hot water recirculating pump," and the contractor says "no problem." But does that mean the contractor will insulate the return line? If so, how much insulation and what kind? (IE., how long is it going to last?) How close to each termination point does the recirc line run ... 4' or 20'? What kind of pump? Is there a timer on the pump? And I'm sure there are more concerns that I don't even know enough to ask. And you have to do this with every single detail that is important to you.And yes, if all of those details are not in writing, it is not part of the contract.
So all my details are a good thing! Of course, they are limited to the little knowledge that I have but at least I have this board to refer to when specing out what I need done.
Always thought I was being too anal about all this but couldn't imagine how to get work done if I didn't know what I wanted.
All that stuff you said about the recirculating pump went right over my head. Hope I don't need one of those. : )
I am going to start with attic insulation though, so I have some searching to do about foam or rigid or whatever it is. I have never even been in my attic ! HA! This oughta be fun! I'm an old lady for cripes sake! (just kidding, i'm just old)
But I have taken what you said to heart.
I don't know where you live, major metropolitan area or a smaller market, or how many qualified remodeling GC's may be in your area. Just remember that just because a guy is dressed in Carhartt and drives a pick up doesn't mean he is qualified to take on your project. As a friend of mine who is a remodeling contractor says "Have you seen some of the people who do this for money?" Your goal should be to find a contractor with the commitment found here on BT. If I were you I would post your location and solicit a response from a BT member or someone recomended by a BT member. Have a discussion with prospective contractors, check references (refered to as due dilligence in some fields) and go with your gut.
The thing is, is there are many contractors in the area but whether they're qualified is something else. Actually, there a three major remodeling companies, NARI award winners and all that. I am sure they are very good but way out of my price range for the amount of work that must be done. I picture them at being great at additions and kitchens and baths but would they replace gutters, clear the drains around the house and insulate?
I live in Cleveland Ohio and everyday I see trucks from remodeling companies on the road. How do you tell if they are qualified? Won't the references only be from the three jobs that turned out well? What about the other 15 that didn't?
In my suburb, I can get a permit by listing myself as the GC and had someone tell me that is what I would need to do for him to do the work. FLAG I have been tempted to do it myself.....NOT.
Yes, I will be searching for someone who knows everything! : )
Ac,
As I read you post I noticed the comments going from what do contractors need to know to what do I need to know to how do I find someone to do this work.
It sounds to me like you have a bunch of work you would like to get completed, but don't know where to start.
I suggest you find someone, a remodeling GC more than likely, who you can trust and ask those very same questions from. Forget the bidding process. I have worked with clients who have limited funds and much to get done. What we do is establish priorities, evaluate logistics and how money can be spent most efficiently and then proceed as funds are available. The benefit for you in this type of approach is you don't have to start the process everytime you want to do something.
When I have done this, like all my other cost estimating and design work, I get paid a fee to do it. What the client gets for that fee is a plan to proceed with repairs in a logical, budget conscious manner.
Most GC's who work in this manner do not mind the hand-holding-it is what we do.
Good luck
Bruce
That was an excellent perception you had of my post. Although it did not come to mind as I was typing, what I need to know and what I leave up to the contractor has been a concern. Actually, finding someone is also a very major concern. I have had a few companies out here in the preliminary stages. Some I liked and will contact again very soon. Others, I knew immediately, would not work out for me.
Your suggestion as to handle all the various projects is great. It takes a lot of the pressure of ironing out all the details for everything at one time but still keeps the full scope in view.
Thank you very much for your reply. I was so bogged down in the details, nothing was getting done. Now I can at least prioritize and start getting something accomplished.
In your research, Google "*Product* standard". For instance "Concrete wall standard". If it's a finish product, Google "*Product* finish standard", ie, "drywall finish standard".
Except for Framing standards, when you see the list of Framing standards, cut all the tolerances in 1/2. If it's 1/4", make it 1/8".
Here's a start:
http://www.crb.ri.gov/blueprin.htm
When you have enough standards to make a decision, remember that the higher the standard, the more it can cost.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Thank you so much. It has now become evident that the more knowledge I have will be beneficial for everyone. I was worried that I would be chasing people away.
Of course, a little knowledge can be dangerous. :) which is why I want more than just a little.
Thanks for the link. I have some studying to do.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
"how much detail does a contractor/remodeler need?"
Listen to the guys here, its all good. Personally I've turned work down when a homeowner can't tell me what their vision of the finished project will look like in the end. I don't read minds and can only suggest solutions and don't ask my advice on color choices. I other words, you have to relate what "Z" is, so the contractor or tradesman can do "A,B,C ..." to get you there.
I will say that you picked up on one of the basic that's usually at odds with most homeowner budgets...
"No sense having a beautiful marble bath if the plumbing leaks or clogs! "
...Mechanically sound before 'beautiful'. HGTV is full of those folks flipping houses doing it the other way around. (I always like good comedy programming.)
Best to you and yours, Chris.
Some say I know too much? Can you ever?
As I have mentioned before, I can't imagine having to plan and perform the jobs you guys do without having a detailed vision of what the homeowner wants. I have to admit that at one time my communications of what I wanted was pretty vague. Only after I started drawing floor plans did I realize all the detail involved. I am trying to address everything that I am aware of and I'm sure there is so much more than I will ever know.
Reading this board has helped me understand some of what is involved. My concern was, did I need to know framing, plumbing, etc? I have gathered some ideas of good and bad practices and products and will try to include as much of the detail into my specs and hope it helps.
I care most about the mechanics and knowing where and how plumbing is done only because, as a female, when things go wrong, being able to diagnose the problem is half the battle even though i'm not doing the repairs.
Thank you very much for your reply.
A little paranoia regarding a project is good. I'm a renovation contractor and also perform owner/contractor mediations for a non-profit. In my experience, the gravest problems develop between the owner and contractor when a smile and a handshake are the extent of the agreement.
Time spent now with the details, and putting them on paper, will benefit you "tenfold". A good contractor knows and appreciates that too. You'll probably discuss your project with several contractors and they will likely provide you with additional options and ideas.
Randy
Thank you for confirming what I suspected all along because I could not imagine it any other way and hope it also helps whoever takes on the projects.
1) Enough about plumbing, electrical, HVAC, Carpentry, drywall/plaster, concrete, grading, blueprints, etc. to have a knowledgeable discussion with your tradespeople, architect, and engineer.
2) How to schedule a job and write lots of change orders.
3) How to hold a customers hand, put out metaphorical fires, and speak firmly and kindly (at first) to subcontractors who don't show up when they say they will.
Jennifer
I second Hiker's advice in finding someone you trust and paying them to help you organize your plans and to work out the details of the project.
As you indicated, finding the right person is a big task. Don't delude yourself in thinking that you can figure this out by talking to various contractors. Many people are good at selling themselves but can't deliver the goods and then it is too late. Talk to people you know, to suppliers, to tradesmen. You should start to hear the same names repeatedly. Those are the people you want to contact and even if they are not available (and they may not be) they can give you the names of others who are qualified (maybe younger and cheaper).
While it is nice to know the details of every facet of your job, it is not necessarily a good thing. As you can tell by following some of the threads here, there are often a number of ways of achieving the final goal and good builders will often disagreed as to the best procedure. Forcing your contractor to do something that he thinks is second rate will just make him think you are foolish. He may do exactly what you tell him but stop thinking about the best way. That is not what you are hiring him to do in an ideal situation. I think a better approach is to ask questions and listen to answers, be enthusiastic and be decisive when you are asked for a decision. Their is no one way to approach this just as there is no one way to build. Good luck.
You're right. How can I tell an experience builder/remodeler how to do his job but only ask questions......and know somewhat of what he is talking about. :)
Thank you.
How can I tell an experience builder/remodeler how to do his job
Thru the contract, and the plans and specifications.
And by remembering the Golden Rule; She who has the gold makes the rules.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Ha! I love it!
Definitely have to remember that one.