I know you pro’s have been through this a number of times…
Actually I have too, but am looking for a better way to handle it.
Scenario: I’m building a house for a lady and she wants to add a garden tub… She is a first time home buyer. This is a fairly small house that is supposed to be affordable…. It’s all permitted and ready to go. Should break ground on Tuesday. Anyway she really wants this garden tub in front of the master bath window and separate shower. I tell her I’ll look at it and mess around with the plans some. At that time I say to her “look at this price list for another house: as an example – what you want is $1600 extra”. She says “fine” or something similar. After messing around with the plans for a number of hours I tell her, look there just isn’t enough room. I give her some designs showing a 42″ tub (not in front of the window) with no shower. She says she will accept that and then says she wants to add a bunch of tile and jets to the tub.
Then she goes to Lowes and finds a 32″ Jauccizi tub with pump, etc. ($825 inc tax and delivery). I say OK, I’ll try to work with that. Finally I’m on design 7 which works out nicely even though I have to move around at least 1/2 of the upstairs (non-load bearing) walls including reconfiguration of the adjacent full bath and moving some windows and removing a closet; we are now into plan redraw- territory. Not just a little red ink on the plans. She says “I really like that. You make me very happy”. Call me crazy but I like to make my customers happy. I say I’ll work up the price. It includes plumber, electrician, etc, etc. I give her the turn-key price and tell her what it includes but no other #s. It’s 1900 and some which is $300 more than the non-whirlpool bath. I was actually fairly modest on my mark-ups and I worked the numbers a bit to get it below $2000.. Which BTW – going into this whole thing I explained to her about mark-up and about me needing a paycheck. She balks at the price. She says, “OK – how much would it be without the vanity cabinet in the 2nd bath”. I tell her it will be $103 less to just get a pedestal sink. She says: “Can you break down all the pricing”. What do I say besides just plain “No”. Which is my normal style….
I just went through a similar situation with a woman and her real estate agent. That time it was hardwood. He “knew how to build houses”. Without going through the whole scenario – I’ll say the relationship was damaged.
How can these things be better handled?
Replies
I don't envy you, Matt. That's hard work for little gain.
One of the problems as I see it is you gave her a bunch of design work for free on the tub, as well as line item pricing. She now thinks that's part of what it's fair for her to ask for.
I think you might be able to salvage the relationship and avoid this now with something like "yes, I can break out individual prices for you, even change the design from the one we already agreed to, but it takes time. A LOT of time. And someone has to pay for that time. I try to keep my overhead low, so I'm willing to do a certain amount of this type work free, but we've already far surpassed that on your job. If you want more info, I'm going to have to charge you _______ per hour."
If nothing else, it can lead to her asking why the heck you think your time is worth ________ per hour and give you a chance to quietly explain why. Lots of people - and I mean LOTS really don't understand how much overhead we carry, much less WHY we need to make a profit. They think of us as carpenters, not as businesses.
Thanks for the input Jim. We are on the right track... I just want to smooth this over and make her understand that everyone needs to make a living. Like me who is driving a 5 year old truck with 100k miles on it....
One comment though: you said "One of the problems as I see it is you gave her a bunch of design work for free on the tub, as well as line item pricing." If I understand you correctly I really didn't give her line item pricing just one # and it includes all this... I did give her the one additional price to remove one component... I do need to remind her that I've given her a bunch of free design time.... She knows it though and has already thanked me several tiimes for all the time I put in. BTW - although this has only been going on for a week I've probably put 8 hrs into it.
One other comment for all: I didn't put any padding in it so it's not like I can lower the price.
Matt, perhaps you can explain your operation a bit and your position in it. I believe I remember but I'm sure it would help get a handle on the scope and magnitude in these type of dealings.
My small remodeling business usually addresses design questions before numbers have been totalled. Occasionally there's a couple options on a single important part. It is easier to tally and figure beforehand.
You as a homebuilder have a much bigger total picture, so necessarily there is potential for many last minute changes. Blues' mention of inclusion of design fees in change orders (in bold writing) is a good one. Too often substitution isn't as simple and picking up a different box at a supplier.
In addition to the written word in the contract I think you'll still have to point it out on each occurance.
Because whether building homes or remodeling bathrooms there's nothing more economic than a well thought out plan.
In advance.
How you go about dealing with the individual client face to face is a bit more complicated. That one will take some thought.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin:
A bit more background.
I work for the builder. He writes up the contracts (usually) and (always) signs the deal with the customer. A few times I have written proposals to build. We also build spec. I have built several houses, that to my knowledge he has never seen. I've been at my current site for about 3 months and he stopped by once that I know of. Three houses are nearing completion. Part of his business plan though is that we will work with the customer. In short the customer gets what they want and they have to pay for it. This is a presale, but not a custom home. The plans were drawn up and engineered and plot plan drawn for a specific city lot before the customer ever first walked in our office door and signed the contract to purchase. Some promises and statements were made at the contract signing table, and now it's up to me to make good on those. Just as a side, I was the first one who talked to this lady. I gave her the "my passion is building" speech and all that....
BTW - the plan was very well thought out ahead of time. Hint: the plan name is "The Matthews House" It is to have quasa-historic exterior. I think it might be considered folk-Victorian. It was designed to be functional but also extremely efficient construction.
She also wants to move the laundry down stairs. If I end up having the plans redrawn it's gonna have a different name on it. To me, she is just f-ing them up. I know that is a bad attitude, but I too subscribe to working with customers, but don't like my time wasted on pricing out a bunch of pipe dreams... It is her house though.
At this point I think I'm just gonna tell her that I feel like I did a pretty good job of giving her an indication as to how much this might cost ahead of time and tell her that if it isn't within her budget we need to move on. Personally I'd rather just build the house to the current plan. I'm really not in the business of selling a bunch of stuff that isn't on our standard option list which is a few pages in length... Remember I said "affordable housing".
These first time home buyers are so niaeve (sp?). They just don't get it when I tell them 'X' "may not be appropiate for this price range house". She also told me that she wants granite... I told her around 4 or 5k and she said never mind. At least I didn't waste a bunch of time on that. She also wants SS appliances and said she wants a SS "chimney hood". When she said that I said "those are rather expensive". I forget, but I think it priced out at around $2k. She didn't respond to that. That was mixed in with a bunch of other appliance questions she had.
The good news is that thus far she has been very nice. Likewise I have been extremely responsive because I don't want the construction process held up.
They think of us as carpenters, not as businesses.
Yes sir. Especially the sole prop and couple guy operation. I've been asked the overhead question rarely, but one time sticks in my mind and goes directly to your statement.
"what overhead? You don't even have employees."
Doesn't do much good to try and explain it-there's not much chance of then understanding.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I don't know why the word "overhead" ever needs to be brought up in a presentation.
but you sure can agree that you've heard it brought up.
Then of course there's that damn "P" word.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
One of the things that makes me laugh about the gal selling for me is that she is ADAMENT ABOUT THE NEED FOR EARNING A PROFIT! She isn't afraid at all to tell the clients that!
it would probably be a good idea to have separate change order forms printed out, with the language already in it. The owner should be handed a couple of blank ones at the signing of the contracts.
You are one lucky man to have one with such talents as you describe. Been sounding like you might actually be enjoying the move.
If she's good looking, my eyes are rolling in the back of my head.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I agree. I am very lucky and I tell myself that every day. I also tell her that! And yes, she is a very attractive young lady. The clients love her. Sometimes I get to hear her work and she is talented. She asks the right questions and really knows how to dig and understand the issues, then works like a bulldog to solve them. She would make a great project manager. In her previous employment she did both....and kept the books! Her boss literally cried when she left him LOL! Shes also tough. The other day, she had to do a preconstruction meeting with a client and their project manager who will be overseeing the project for the owner. Like most men, he immediately dismissed her as not knowing anything about construction. It was her against two men. By the end of the conversation, she had them laughing and eating out of her hand LOL! This was a meeting that I decided that she would be better attending alone, without me or our project manager. After the meeting, she told me that we had made the right decision. It would have been worse if I was there. It would have turned into a two bulls vs me battle. Instead, she melted them and we are now forging ahead on this deal. I am enjoying the move because the economy here is conducive to doing a good business but I do miss Michigan in many, many ways.
Does she have a sister?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yes she does. She's in your neighborhood. You won't meet her till you start searching for her.
Ask her to ask the guy behind the counter to break down the price of a gallon of gas to justify his price.
Stuff costs what it costs. if you cant afford it dont buy it.
That question really insults me. This is my offer of what it will cost to get you your product at my level of quality.
End of story.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Matt, most of your problems with this particular problem are occurring because you didn't set the table properly. You missed the mark in two ways.
First, in the signed contract, there should be some language that deals with the change order issue. It should spell out how much the consultation fees are, how much the paperwork for the change order are, and that a fixed bid for additional work will be agreed upon. Note that there are always three different fees to calculate for every change order.
The next area that you set the table wrong happened when the first inkling of the change order started. When she came to you about the change, you shouldn't have talked about that change being 1600. Instead, you should have immediately ballparked EVERYTHING in your head and tossed out a 5k to 10k figure.
I've been in this scenario a couple of times myself, but prior to contract signing, and I have to agree with Jim about the table setting.
Once the contract is signed, you just can't start throwing around ballpark figures or redrawing as though you were still in the design stage. I love to make my customers happy, too, but I've learned to abide by the rules like change orders. There should be some reference to those in your contract, and you have to bring it up before everyone gets into the exciting possibilities or you could be drawing and figuring for nothing.
I think that if a customer knows you are going to figure this up and present it formally just like you did your original bid, they are less likely to start the casual what-iffing. They also need to know if you expect any compensation for the time it will take to redraw and perhaps resubmit drawings to the building dept.
One point of clarification. There was no "bid". This is essentially a spec house that happened to sell before we broke ground. The customer walked in the door with a "conceptual drawing" of the house in hand with a firm price attached to it and said "I want to buy this house". The deal was closed at the list price. The customer was told she could make minor non-structural changes so now I'm in the process of trying to cash that check. The customer was told that "we" could move the laundry down stairs. That is a fairly simple change. Once that happened extra space was available upstairs which opened up the possibility of messing with the master bath. What opened that can of worms was that the conceptual drawing was probably a bit vague and the customer didn't fully understand the layout. The conceptual drawing did have a "big bold" disclaimer on it though so that is not a real serious issue.
A change order will be written for any changes that are physically made and that change will be paid for in full before any work begins. I know ball park figures are dangerous, but we all know but it is a mechanism to keep our time from being wasted.
I think maybe another point of contention is that I have told her that she will have to pay for the plan re-draw be it a fairly minor fee. Since she was told she could make minor changes I don't think she was ready for that. I think the word "minor" is key though.
I agree whole heartily that most of this stuff should have been worked out before the contract was signed, but it's not like I can tell my boss how to run his company. I did "mention" to him that I was spending a lot of time on this and that we were nearing the point where the plans would need to be re-drawn. His response "OK - make the customer happy but make her pay for it". The only point of real discussion was that he wanted me to try to do this stuff without a plan re-draw. Summarizing, I told him no. BTW - he owns a number companies. I think part of his basic method of doing business is he focuses on closing the deals and then he lets his underlings manage the details. Seems like that is the way things should work...
How much time is really going to be spend "redrawing"? I've worked on many houses that had some fairly extensive red ink "redraws". Do these plans have to go through the city review process again?
>> How much time is really going to be spend "redrawing"? I've worked on many houses that had some fairly extensive red ink "redraws". Do these plans have to go through the city review process again? <<
I'm estimating the redraw at 1 to 2 hrs. I have a good relationship with our designer and he won't hit me too hard. Really I could probably just "redline" it but don't really feel like it because of the potential screw-ups with the framers. None of the changes will be structural. It's a simple trussed roof so all the interior 2nd floor walls are non-load bearing. The customer was told that no structural changes could be made. Hate to say it but If I have to deal with the A-holes at the premitting office again someone is gonna pay dearly... :-)
Your problem is not the woman customer. Your problem is your boss and the business plan that sells a product for "X" $ with open ended promises to change it after the sale and prior to pricing any changes. If someone sold me a deal like that on a new car I am quite certain I would become one of the car dealers biggest PITA customers.
The client is only following up on the information she was given prior to handing over some of her money (Here I am assuming your company got some as a down payment)
Your boss has you in the position of delivering a product at a stated price to her that she has control over unless you become the bad guy. Not a good position to be in and one pretty much guaranteed to make you the bad guy to one or both of the other parties involved.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
word.
But what to do about that problem once it's identified? That's the question in my mind. Taking personal authority of your life is the key. You often can't change the position you find yourself in, but you can learn to recognise the reason you're in it and take responsibility for finding yourself in that position again...and again...and again...
We are all victims of our own choices.
Edited 8/29/2008 11:17 am ET by jimblodgett
We are all victims of our own choices.
Live by the donut, die by the donut.
Yep. But first one has to identify the problem and I was seeing a case of misidentification .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
So which one of you guys is going to call up Matt's boss and tell him what you think about how he does business? :-)
I already had that conversation with a boss in my past. I returned to self employment shortly thereafter.
Putting $ in his pocket wasn't worth my ulcers. One observation I have made in my career in this business is that some builders lose what it takes to be the person dealing with the client and hire sacrificial "front" men to do it for them. ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I agree with what you are saying and sometimes I get tired of the rinky-dink way of doing business. But there is two sides to that coin too. Like I said above, he closes the deals and then lets his underlings figure out the details. The good news is that although he is available to answer questions and offer opinions and guidance when asked he is the exact opposite of a micro-manager. He knows that I know that reasonable budgets have to be met and then just trusts me to build as I see fit. (although I don't get to build what I see fit...) OK, so what does that mean? Like maybe I can hire some guys to install and flash my windows and doors perfect and I don't have some bean counter in an office who doesn't know a 2x4 from a 2x6 asking me what the heck this bill is for $290 for window/door install is.... If I want to use Tyvek brand house wrap instead of the cheap stuff - so be it. And he knows that sheet happens. Personally aside from the amount of responsibility that is dumped on me I think it's a pretty good deal. If I didn't go to the office 2x a week or so to process my subcontractor and material supplier bills I'd wouldn't see him but every few months. On the very odd occasion that he does show up on site (always unannounced), he looks around for 10 minutes, says "looks good" and leaves. And he takes care of me at the end of the year... and a guaranteed periodic paycheck in the mean time.
As my part of the deal I do my best to "handle it" and not bother him with a bunch of problems and mundane details.
Sometimes I feel like he, after building homes and apartments for 30 years has earned the right to sit in the office, work deals, take 4 day weekends on a regular basis, shake hands with everyone and do his people skills thing. Then he's got his little pack of pit bulls that make it all happen. OH - and he funds the whole thing...
BTW - Yesterday I called the customer in question and left a message "let's talk". She hasn't gotten back to me so I guess it will wait until Tuesday. Thanks to you guys it is clear in my head what I'm gonna say and how I'm gonna handle it in general. It's all about saying no in a nice way.
Another BTW - when I first met with her I got a real smile when she said "when I met the salesmen"... I told her that he was the owner of the company I work for and 10 or 20 other companies... He is very low key and his business card has only his name on it and a few company names.... No title.... I worked there for a month before I even figured out what the "pecking order" was.... There is actually a vice president between me and him but he (the VP) is really just a financial manager and paperwork guy as far as my part of the business... He is real busy with the apartment building/management end of things and rarely talks to me except just to say hi and stuff like that... He comes to one of my building sites once a year max - if that. He is usually in a big hurry and sometimes will say something like "I'm not going in the houses because I don't want to get my shoes muddy..." :-)
Your boss doesn't sound all bad at all.
He actually sounds much like the guy I spent the last six years working around. For him and his style I will put up with some of the other stuff. When the boss knows enough to leave you alone and do what you know how to do plus pays you well for it there are things you put up with.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Matt, it sounds like they hired you to be the production manager and they are allowing you to do your job! Congrats. That is the exact business model I'm following right now. I'm curious to see how it works out. Only time will tell.
As far as I know he has been doing it for at least 15 or 20 years.... Seems to work for him I guess. The thing is that we gotta offer something that the national builders don't... besides a better house....
There was a guy there in my job before me. He went out on his own. I think he was hitting it pretty big for maybe 2 years. Then this bad economy thing hit... Last I heard he had ten $300k houses sitting.... That's why a pay check is OK with me....
<<<<he customer was told that "we" could move the laundry down stairs. That is a fairly simple change. Once that happened extra space was available upstairs which opened up the possibility of messing with the master bath.>>>>first time homeowner probably has no idea of how many miles she is going to log carrying the laundry from the bedrooms down the stairs to the laundry and then back up againa well thought out laundry on the same floor as the bedrooms is a great thingi think she's making a mistakeMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
me too - and I told her that. I told her that I install washer pans below all washer locations that drain to the exterior and even told her I would have the plumber install one of those double cutoff valves if she left it upstairs. She said that at her parents the washer had leaked and caused a disaster ruined drywall ceiling and all that. I told her that 90 % of those situations happened due washer hoses, more often than not ones that are old or cheap, often time that were installed with a used washer.
Ah, that clears up a lot of things.
While I understand how the boss does business (having been on the underling side of that process), it has the potential to create lots of friction for the person who's face to face with the customer. Your gal probably didn't realize that re-drawing went slightly past the minor changes she was allowed.
However, as far as revising plans and drawing things up, I can't point any fingers at anyone. I've been known to get whole plans nearly finished for approval, then take off on an additional "let's just suppose we did this" tangent to give a client an option that's outside the original parameters.
Sometimes it's a wow moment and we go with it. Sometimes it's just an interesting option we discard. Good thing I draw fast!
I think the customer understands that changing things around and adding stuff is different. The whirpool is an entirely new fixture. The whole thing about adding the whirlpool tub never came up until she started reaching into her dream pool. Maybe when she looked at my model home during our "material selection" meeting where I presented available choices for cabinets, paint, flooring, etc, etc. That all happened post-contract signing time. Actually though the model doesn't even have a whirlpool - just a "soaker tub".
BTW - The bossman rarely lets me actually meet customers before they are signed on - which is actually fine with me - I'm too busy to be talking much to tire kickers. He probably figures (and rightfully so) that I probably will forget to shave that day and have caulk on my hands.... Our receptionist refers phone information inquiries to me though. I'll give any potential customer about 2 to 10 minutes of information on the phone.
From the other posts it sounds like your boss and you have a pretty compatible setup. Sounds like he trusts you to do your job and gets on with his.
All in all, a pretty good thing, huh?
Yes - it's a pretty good deal. I just worry about the economy and the new home sales slump.
OTOH, if I could live in dreamland every house would sell on the day I got the CO.... Even then though, the homebuyer would probably want me to "remodel" the house. I guess in my dreamland I need a line of customers. Then we could choose :-)
Back to the matter at hand though. The whole thing is that I need to work on my people skills. You know - how to tell people "no" and have them feel good about it and all that....
""You know - how to tell people "no" and have them feel good about it and all that.... "" Matt,
One thing I had to learn was that it is OK to tell people "NO" and that they be unhappy.
You can't please all the people all the time.
Just accept that it is going to happen and don't beat yourself up , their response is their response and their issue.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Don't tell them no. Tell them yes with the proper price tag. It's their choice. Either they get to keep their money or trade it for their dream.
The new house slump has finally started to hit around here; we haven't been as slow as other areas until recently.
My former showroom owner said by this time last year he had done 1500 houses; this year it's about 150.
I think it's a bad time (pre-election) to hope for any great increases in new construction. But remodeling is what I really like to do, anyway.
How can these things be better handled?
Mainly by holding your mind in business mode when listening to her charming little speechs.
She'll manipulate you until you gently take charge again. In my experience, women clients have a very good grasp of logic but they often prefer to use charm to get what they want. Once they see that you're susceptable...
"Come into my parlor, said the spider to the fly".
That is exactly the issue... And I saw it comming on day one...
Thanks for the reminder...
matt.... i would say the common thread here is trying to make something out of nothing
it can't be done
every time ( well ... almost every time ) i have gotten into trouble it is because i was trying to save my customer some money
write this on a piece of paper and stick it in your hat....
" no good deed goes unpunished "
the two areas i have gotten into trouble the most are
the above ....
and failure to properly supervise a sub
ditto, ditto, ditto, ditto!!!!!!I fired myself and hired a good manager!
Mike,
Not just your own autobiography but the biographies of most of us who hang out here- and in only five short sentences!
Brilliant!
Ron
Edited 8/29/2008 5:23 pm by ronbudgell
With all due respect, I think you are both a bit neurotic. She ... the 'classic' client from hell a bit ... changing her mind on a whim and expecting miracles to just ooze out of your pores. Then when you are waffling a little to try to make her happy, she now wants it broken down into pieces parts so she can pick and choose. You have to respect that when she is 'reeling' from the adjusted prices. I understand redesigning on the fly, but there can be serious consequences if not handled well.
You also had good intensions, but probably handled it with less finesse than you could/should have. That's the part of having a business that can be tough. Sure you know how to pound nails and lay tile and whatever. Work your magic w/ your skilled hands. But business is more than just that skill. As soon as she started making changes, it's time to hault the process and sit down and talk about changes, practicalities, and who is willing to do what ... and no one is to do anything until you agree on the changes and responsibilities. It takes time ... and absolutely, you should be compensated ... assuming you didn't rush your client into something before they were ready to say ... 'that's what I want'.
There is a difference between extending your service a little to satisfy a small thing here or there ... wholesale changes are different matters all together.
It's REALLY tough and I am not berating you ... just providing my own 2 cents worth of comments (OK, I won't charge you :) ). Good luck.
She isn't the client from hell - by any means. And I want to keep it that way. She is just a little naive and therefore is making me work pretty hard to earn my money.
I don't think I handled it that poorly either, but yes, more finesse would have been a good thing, but I'm not really even sure there is a problem. As you said - she is just reeling from sticker shock - although I really don't know why. Yes it is a little expensive, but I gave her fair warning.
As far as me waffeling - maybe here at BT - but not to her. She basically has 3 prices: The "basic" that comes with the house. A small upgrade, and then the Jacuzzi tub she thinks she really wants. I can see a 4th one coming though...
Me asking how to gracefully avoid the "can you break the costs down" question was me making sure I didn't waffle.
And I already had the practicality talk with her - like on the first "I want to change around the bathroom" day. What is appropriate for this price range house - all that. People never seem to get that though.... They always want granite - etc. Until they get the price. If it is rolled into the price of the house it never becomes an issue though.
I know remodeling guys go through this stuff all the time.
Absolutely. While I may have come on a bit strong or didn't use the best choice of words ... you are still reading it loud and clear. Didn't mean to disrespect your client whom I don't know. Client from hell ... strong ... but I meant simply the typical client like you say ... reaches into their dream bag and starts going off on a tangent.
It takes two to contribute to ANY relationship. The VAST MAJORITY of times, your client cannot buy off their responsibility. They have to contribute. They have to make some decisions. You have to make sure you show them you are willing to bust butt for them and go the extra mile ... but not for free. They have to respect that fact. Would they want to go into their work and not get paid for a major addition to a project? Right now, it sounds like you are doing very well in maintaining control of a situation that may or may not have easily gone south.
You obviously ain't no dumby. Good luck ... wish you both the best for a successful project!!
Yea - I think this is your typical "free estimate" scenario. I know none of us want to do free estimates but not all of us have our clientele so tightly nailed down. Especially with new home building where you are always working for referrals but repeat customers don't happen very often. As we all know though, the free estimate is only free to the person who doesn't buy anything. As covered above and else where the free estimate (free design work) sets the wrong tone though. "Hey - look at all this work this guy put in for me for free. I guess he will probably do the job for a $50 management fee too..." :-) which is probably what she was thinking.
Looking at it from her standpoint, she may be afraid that now that she signed a contract to buy the house, and has started "reaching into her dream pool" wanting to add stuff that she didn't think of before, "the builder is gonna stick it to her" since she is a captive audience. Which absolutely isn't the case. Honesty and integrity is at the top of my list.
As far as accepting responsibility, I hear ya. The other option that I didn't price out for her yet I told her she would have to go the plumbing supply and tile store to pick the stuff out. She backed off a little when I told her that...
Regarding that, if she wants to go there, I gotta tell her up front that that scenario isn't gonna be cheap either and that once I do it she will need to make a decision as my time isn't disposable. The sad part about that is that since I'm a salaried employee, for the most part, I get paid the same no matter what, and because my plate is quite full, most of this design stuff occurs after hours.
I had a scenario several years ago where I build 5 houses all somewhat similar and right on the same street but one was customized quite a bit. Same kind of deal - no structural changes but nearly everything on the inside. The good news was that the guy had the money and was willing to spend it. Not a first time homebuyer. It was a cool house. When it was all said and done though, guess what house our percentage of margins were smaller on? :-) Not the one that I spent 2x the amount of time on... Made more overall, but not as high a percent. That taught me a lesson...
BTW - one of the other houses I'm building right now it was kind of the same thing. That guy bought most of what he had me price though and it's all a done deal. The only outstanding item is that he still needs to pick the color for his hardwoods.
Matt:
First, remember the big picture.
Second, I'd price out all the trades involved, framers time to review and update his cut list for the house, electric, plumber, HVAC guy for re-working his risers, etc. and then your time.
When you are done, you will be able to show her that you are getting probably $10 per hour to manage this change.
half hour with each trade, hours of re-design, coordinating pickup of tub, cementing tub in, etc.
Once you break it down and show her the costs, tell her that you would rather not do it because it will actually make the job less profitable, however, you value the relationship and are willing to move forward at the already quoted price of $1900
>> Second, I'd price out all the trades involved, framers time to review and update his cut list for the house, electric, plumber, HVAC guy for re-working his risers, etc. and then your time. <<
The price I already gave her wsn't a WAG....
You are the first one who said I should break it down...
My thought is that if I do she is gonna start with:
"Why is the plumber charging so much? Can't you talk him down?$#### to add a GFCI outlet? - that is $xx in materials and 10 minutes in labor.$150 to redraw the plans? You are already having them re-drawn anyway for the other change I was promised. That's not fair. And you want three hundred and some for your time and markup? That's ridiculous. What is markup? What does that give me? Delivery? Can't you go get the tub yourself?" etc, etc.
Edited 9/1/2008 3:24 pm ET by Matt
Re. the what if's
You have been too fair with her on this upgrade.
If she wants you to go get 100 from the elecrician before the job starts, suggest to her that the electricain will remember and will find a way to get that $100 back somewhere on the job.
Remind her that you are embarking on a big project and now is not the time to be squeezing the trades on a few dollars.
You have given her a very fair price and actually re-remind her that you dont want to do the upgrade because you will not get your money out of it.
Re. markup, WE ALL MUST make a living. Does she do stuff for free? NO WAY.
Dont be nasty about it but the fact is we live in the USA it is a capitalist society and we all are entitled to go out and make a profit in what we do!!
Free? No such thing as free.
Just to kinda close the loop here....
She finally went with the upgrade without much of any more discussion about pricing. That part of the conversation lasted about 1 minute. I think a lot of the outcome was based on some "tools" I was given above to help me defuse the situation a bit.
OTOH - That is after something like 8 design variations and 3 or 4 different sized possible bath tubs. Mostly that was a waste of my time, but like I said - that was mostly me trying to make good on promises and statements that were made at the time the contract was signed. I told her the first time she mentioned the separate tub and shower that it was 10# of sheet in a 5# box. It all pays the same to me (although I probably put in 8 hrs of my personal time) and it isn't really like I can tell my boss who made the promises for what I really think. I'm just glad to have a job right now. I think I spent the first half of my life being secure in knowing that I always spoke my mind, and now I think maybe I'm spending the 2nd half being a little smarter.
"I'm just glad to have a job right now. I think I spent the first half of my life being secure in knowing that I always spoke my mind, and now I think maybe I'm spending the 2nd half being a little smarter."LoL. Some of us never learn.
Matt
thanks for closing the loop
My history.
11 years at NVR (Ryan Homes) one of the top 10 builders in the country. 11 years climbing till I got to the point where speaking my mind was a problem for the guy above me, then the ladder became a slide and I muddled thru till I went to 1 then 2 then 3 other companies in the span of 6 years till I figured out that I need to be on my own.
Now I am broke but still can get away with speaking my mind.
Happy but working like you.