The discussion in the thread about going rates for Cabinet installs got me thinking.
This may be a little more personal than some want to share but I’ll ask anyway for a couple of reasons.
Have any of you sat down and really crunched the numbers on what it is you want to make for your efforts? I’m talking more about the solo guys or very small companies.
I’m asking for two reasons. First, the subject of what to charge comes up pretty often here. Each time it comes up I can’t help but think that we are comparing apples and oranges in that guys have different expectations out of life.
Second, on my desk is my continuation package. When it’s complete I will have the option of extending for 5 years or 6 years. by doing so I will be locked in as Full Time Unit staff and will most likely not have to relocate even if I am reassigned. But more and more I feel I would prefer to retunr to my first learned trade as a carpenter.
I’ll start. When I first stepped out on my own my goal was $225 per day, five days per week. As I learned more about business I raised it to $250. As time went on it became $300 per day and eventually $350 per day 5 days a week. I figured a total of 48 weeks a year.
Of that $350 a day or $1750 a week it broke down like this. $300 a week for operating expenses. $420 for uncle sam and $200 a week so I could hang it up some day and play golf and chase teenage girls. This all hinges upon my wife having a job with benefits but includes the cell phone, truck payment, insurance, gas, tools and Misc office expenses.
Now here is the rub. I could sell myself at that rate and stay pretty busy and hit my 48 weeks a year target. But if I would push it beyond that I would meet pretty big resistance and ran the risk of having the job snatched out from under me.
It is probably important to say that I seldom did any low end stuff. Lots of new work but not the bottom of the barrel.
I see Jerald’s number of $85 per hour in the cabinet thread and I see Jeff’s number of $45 per hour and I can’t help but ask if we as a whole leave money sitting on the table.
As a Sergeant First Class, I would have to be able to bill $55 an hour or $440 a day to be able to bring down the same check and benefits to make it worth my while to leave and be a carpenter again (love of the work only goes so far, teenage boy ready for college trumps love of work almost every time). Not too many guys in my area are even close to that.
SO, where are we going wrong collectively?
Replies
I see Jerald's number of $85 per hour in the cabinet thread and I see Jeff's number of $45 per hour and I can't help but ask if we as a whole leave money sitting on the table.
maybe ... but I think Jerrald lives in NY ... and I live in Pittsburgh.
when I estimate all things right ... and don't slow myself down ... and charge for extras and additional work ... that $45/hr adds up nicely here. Plus ... like U said .. there are a ton of extra variables .... I add profit and mark up on top of that. Also on top of materials ...
things like having employee burden(which I don't have) would affect it ... where and when ya add it in would affect it .... and overhead is a huge apple/orange figure.
A guy that likes to unwind and change his own oil on weekends(not me) on an old Chevy Van (me) has way less yearly vehicle overhead than a guy that "needs" a van no more than 2 years old and has the dealer do all the maintenence.
Tools also ... I have a buddy that can build your million dollar addition with pick up bed-load of tools ... other guys need a van plus a 20ft trailer. My buddy just don't like buying new tools.
Company's with office space need to bring in enough month to run the office ... others work out of a spare closet in their house.
Some people spend thousands a year on advertising .... and some have worked for 25 years on word of mouth.
and like first mentioned ... all this revolves around ... but doesn't take into consideration ... the local cost of living.
My brother lives in Cali ... I couldn't live on Jerralds $85/hr there ... but $45/hr is pretty good here.
and now to complicate things even more ... sometimes ... a steady $45/hr adds up to more at years end than a sporatic $85/hr.
But in some locals ... that $85 would get ya more work ... as at $45/hr ... U must not know what yer doing!
But back to your question ... are we leaving money on the table ... probably.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff,
You are right that it is regional. Where Ilive 2500 sqft would run me between $275K and $325K. Someone in my family just made an offer on a house in Jerrald's area. $1.1 Mil for 2600 sqft and $22K a year in property taxes.
What I'm more curious about, and see as the bigger issue that is holdiing a lot of guys back is that a ton of guys just accept a much lower standard of living for themselves while doing the same level and volume of work.
As an example, I used to figure health insurance into the cost of being self employed but many people I know told me I was nuts that you couldn't figure that as overhead, you just had to get the wife out to work. Now it would be nice to have been relieved of that burden, but if I couldn't provide those basic needs for my family why bother?
I guess I am just wondering how many people have done the math and been surprised and changed their business pratices because of it.,
Hi Robert - This subject raises my interest too. I'm in the position of leaving an office job and doing something that I enjoy more - more field work including renovations and design/build new homes. You need to watch where you're going and plan how you will get there. Otherwise, ten years down the road, you're still in the same place.
I've got family and friends in construction and have pretty much done it all my life. My observations are that the people you are talking about don't consider the big picture. If they have enough money to make the truck payment, the phone payment and the rent, they're content. I think this is especially true of younger folks, in their 20's or even 30's. Hate to blame it on society, but the truth is that we've been encouraged for years by the media to live in the here and now. (I hate advertising.) Most people don't have the discipline or background that you do to consider where they will be in 10, 20 or 30 years. As they get older, some get smarter. Some get families and have no choice. Some work harder and some go to work for Home Depot for the benefits.
Jeff's got it right on the specifics. The geographic area can make all the difference in the world. Prices in metro areas are so much different than they are in Buffalo Junction, down south. Personal preferences, wants and needs are crucial too. The system is the same - figure out what your individual needs are and will be to the best of your ability in the future, then figure backwards. It's tough to do, can be time consuming and often isn't pretty when it's done. That's why financial planners can be so useful.
On this site, I think there is a higher than average group of people that try to get the big picture. It'll be interesting to see. To be a little more specific, I think 50K/year is not a bad number. (I tend to live pretty simply.) More is nice, but it also depends on what you're sacrificing to get it. How you do the math to get back to it is another story.
To be a little more specific, I think 50K/year is not a bad number
Gross sales??
Gross profit??
Net profit???
Just don't want anyone getting confused, I don't mean that as an attack on you at all.
And regionally, here that would be scraping (almost) to get by. I'm figguring buying bennies and having a retirement account as well.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Net in my pocket, I'm figuring for one person. I know people that couldn't live on double that or more (hope my other half doesn't see this <g>). What will it take to generate that in terms of sales, etc.? My numbers are still too inconsistent to give you that one.
There's also the issue of the marginal propensity to consume. As it was explained to me a few years ago in college, whenever we get an additional dollar of income, we automatically spend a percentage of it. The percentage typically is 80%, some more, some less. So, once you hand me a check for 10K, my mind quickly starts to think about ways to spend the first $8,000. Well, I really could use that new _______ (fill in the blank). Next thing you know, the expenses have gone nuts and you're back in a hole. That's why I said more ain't a bad thing.
Don
here's the thread (I think)
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=55281.1I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Hi Robert - This subject raises my interest too. I'm in the position of leaving an office job and doing something that I enjoy more - more field work including renovations and design/build new homes. You need to watch where you're going and plan how you will get there. Otherwise, ten years down the road, you're still in the same place.
Just out of curiosity, what brings you to the decision to leave an office job and go it on your own?
There isn't enough time for me to go thru it all. If I had to summarize (since I don't feel like typing all night) I would say after 20 years, I burnt out of the profession I was in, disliked the attitudes of the bulk of the people I worked with and live near and money was never my driving force. I'm in my mid 40's and decided I can't stand being in an office every day, answering to everyone else's needs and complaints. Actually, I made more money in construction/real estate and had less stress and more fun. I've been banging nails on and off since I was nine years old and I really enjoy it. I know in the real world, including construction and real estate, there are arseholes and idiots lurking in every corner. I just need a new set of them to deal with. It's also nice to have customers that are happy, even if it is only occasionally.
Don
Robert,
I did this a while back and I am still reeling from it. I live in Jerralds area. I'll try to locate the link or maybe Jerry knows where it is.
I'll quickly share some opinions.
If you figure all your living needs to come up with an hourly salary, you may be hard pressed to have steady work. At those rates you will need some cleaver marketing, a small crew and possibly a showroom type office to give the clientele you will need to attract, in order to sustain those rates,something to look at and develop a sense of security about working with you.
I believe that as the quality of the client rises, it becomes exponentially difficult for small type contractors to woo this client, unless perhaps you have branded yourself really well, offer some artsy fartsy service that is not available commonly, or have created a very unique service niche which is nearly the same as what I just described.
High end money wants web pages and showrooms, customer service and a lots of hand holding. A very high level of customer service.
Not to say a very well established small guy can't find his way in there. See above.
That your wife has bennies is good for you. Side by side I could not compete with you having to provide my own.
I see the industry shaking in in different ways depending on the local economy.
Here is what I see in my area:
Very large big time contractors. Twenty something crews, 10 or 12 vehicles, desigers, archys on staff, showrooms and web pages.
Medium guys like the above, just on a little smaller scale, perhaps outsourcing the design and arch. work.
Small guys like me are struggling to woo these clients. Blue collar or working class families are becoming more and more scarce. These folks are the bread and butter of one and two man shows. Insurance and benefits cost have gone completely nuts. I know of a good many small time operators like me, more and more I learn from talking to them, that the wife is really the breadwinner, despite appearances, and it is becoming common for contractor dad to knock off at 2 and meet the bus and go home and cook waiting for mom to come home.
Not sure I get that but hey............
I'm about done with begging people to pay me what I'm worth. I've been doing a bit of sub work the past moths and it has not been all that bad. No evening or sat. appointments, a LOT less bookeeping, I go to the bank and cash my check; done.
These are just my opinions, maybe I'm a crybaby, maybe I don't have what it takes or I'm burnt out. I would readily admit to any of the above if accused of such.
I just want to make a living. I'm tired of all the ####. I'm not a salesman and I don't want to be either. I'm a carpenter, I want to do carpentry work and get paid for it.
Good luck to you. If I were you, I'd take that continuance package, perhaps use the next five years to slide into the bus. slowly if that is possible. I'm sure with your years in, you're ready for a change.
If you find what you think is sage advice just remember it going in, not coming out.
I'm guessing you'll be doing reserves or can re up with in a certain amount of time out? Might take some of the pressure of.
Your a good guy, I'm sure you will do well.
I'm done now.
Eric Paulson
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric,
you bring up a few things that I have been wondering about for some time. The biggest one was about the wife being the bread winner. A bunch of my friends have admitted as of late that they could not support their families if their wives didn't work. I see bunches of big trucks parked outside the Home Depot, and often hear some pretty big talk, but I seldom see much substance. Alot of this has come to light since taking a step back 3 1/2 years ago when I returned to active duty.
I always enjoyed a good reputation and am more than capable of picking up good clients willing to pay reasonably well for quality work. The problem I see is that so many guys in my area at least are willing to sell themselves short. Those guys become the baseline we are measured against. Because of that, "Good Money" probably isn't what it should be.
This package is sitting here waiting for me to prepare it for a the board and it's awful hard not to when a bunch of my friends who are runnning smaller operations (less than 5 guys) all tell me they would kill to be in my shoes.
by the way, I lived comfortably as a Sub who concentrated on trim and stairs for some time. If you are reasonable talented and organized, you can hook up with a good stair shop and do well. On the job by 7:30 and cleaned up by 3:30 for between $375 and $450 a day if it's piece rate.
Those guys become the baseline we are measured against. Because of that,
Agian, call me a crybaby,I'm tired of it and simply don't have the motivation to overcome that using expensive marketing and advertizing that goes right back into your costing anyway. Oh so and so will do it for $25.00 phr. Good grief.
I probably could have gone big at one time had I chosen that path. At that time I was in the early stages of recovering from divorce and was faced with the task of helping my kids survive the plight of thier mother having custody of them. I chose the right path I have no doubts. I took care of my family.
by the way, I lived comfortably as a Sub who concentrated on trim and stairs for some time. If you are reasonable talented and organized, you can hook up with a good stair shop and do well. On the job by 7:30 and cleaned up by 3:30 for between $375 and $450 a day if it's piece rate.
I could live on three or four days a week like that.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric,
What kind of sub work are you doing now and howis it working out? I prefer that to selling but the one thing that always scares me about it is the idea of losing the customer base if things go south economy wise.
Currently, jobs are VERY local. Most within 5 to 10 miles.
The contractor is doing kitchens and baths almost entirely.
He might have his guys come in and through the boxes in and maybe a little trim, then pull them off to start another.
I pick up the pieces. I triage the job, and bang it out. Hang a door, trim a couple of windows, base, tile backsplash, tile floor, perhaps install the downdraft cook top behind the stone guys.
Basically what ever needs to be done. I'm good at assessing what needs to be finished and getting it done. I see a lot of guys really start to get bogged down on this part of the job especially when it comes to details. I'm a good finisher.
I'm rarely on a job more than 3 or 4 days which suits me fine. I'm working by 8am at the latest andthe gc is flexible about when I leave. I work a task oriented day. When a set of tasks is complete and the next task or set of tasks means retoolong, or carrying on past quittin time, I'll call it a day. Usually ends up being around 2:30 or 3, but often will run into a full 8 hour day.
I really appreciate the flexibility. I have other things to do while I'm here besides work.
I bill him Thurs. evening by fax and he hands me a check on friday.
Hasn't been entirely steady which is ok too, to a certain extent only though.
I'm thinking of trying to hook up with one or two other guys to increase the load a bit.
Am I getting rich?? Hell no, but I wasn't before either. I have tons less office time now, and no more evenings and saturday selling jaunts.
I didn't think I would like this but it seems to be working for now. The fact that I no longer have the oppotunity to score some profit once in a while is the only thing that bothers me.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric,
A natural progression for you might be to find a stair shop that needs a rail installer. It's light easy work, most shops pay within a week, adn the jobs are usually short. I think the longest I ever stayed on an install was 5 days. You can usually make ok money. In my area a standard L shaped stair with a short balcony might pay between $300 and $450. After a while you can get that down to a long day for the $450 job and a short day for the $300 job. Most of the shops I worked for faxed me a job sketch with a layout, estimated date and price. I faxed the sheet back either accepting the price or asking for my price and gave a date. They would fax back a confirmation and I would put it on my calander.
Another thing to think about is hooking up with a lumberyard. Lots of yards sell trim packages to builders who would just as soon make the check out to just one person for a complete trim package. The builder pays the lumber yard and the yard pays you. I've done this in the past and it works ok.
It sounds like your splitting time between making a living and taking care of the kids. Might not be too bad to get away from some of the selling and paperwork for a while. In my experience, the amount I had to lower my price to get those kinds of jobs was never equal to what it would have cost me had I figured out all the costs of chasing the job on my own. Remember the stair shop or lumberyard has to have a salesman out there to sell the trim or lumber so how much more effort is involved in selling the labor too?
The big danger is that you lose some of your old customer base and might be slow if the economy takes a dive.
another thought ....
why can't carps be more like mechanics?
They work out of a price book .... and those times/prices are slanted way in their favor.
ever take a car to 2 different shops for bids? They pretty much stick to the book. And I've never heard of a mechanic lowering his price to get a "nice job" like working on a Rolls!
I always tell the wife ... if all the dumba$$ carps in the world would just get together and agree to Not undercut the next guy ... or everyone just realize we are leaving money on the table and every last one raise their rates by $5 pr $10 .... that the customers would be forced to start paying a better "wage" for damn hard work!
But ... there'll always be that guy that undercuts U and me ... to land the job ... so he's one day closer to being broke himself. Lowering expectations as he goes ...
I have seen the enemy and it is us. We, as a group, are own worst enemy.
When I tell cab dist's in my area my $45/box ... I know they're laughing as I leave because the next 10 guys in line are all going down from there. Roughly half the guys I compete againt think $18/hr for sub work is good money ...
Jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Ya know what else Jeff?
The mechanics don't " negotiate" on the price either!!!!!!
It's pretty much---this is the price---take it or leave it.
Sound familiar?????
Stephen
We charge $50 an hour for small work and decline to $40 based on the size of the job. We market. I figured out that you can own a business or own a job. Some guys like to not deal with the marketing and charge less so they are busy all the time.
One guy in my area, much more talented than I keeps busy 50 weeks a year and rarely works for anyone outside of one family. He bills at $30 an hour plus material at cost and only work T&M. Likes it that way.
I want to build a business that is somewhat self sustaining. I am not an artist. I am a business man in the building trades. So we are looking to hire another guy right now. Having a business means I can get sick and still make a little money.
Tools and equipement. Jeff is right. It depends on person. I like tools. I want the tools to do the job. If I can't have that at least I am going back to a job.
I can make more money working for others. About 40% more. I choose to do this because I want to and I like the freedom of movement. If my wife didn't carry benefits this would be tough to justify. But its getting better.
Do I think we as a whole leave money on the table? You bet! I bid a job recently for a matching fund government program for land lords. Paint the entire interior and repair walls, all new vinyle window (19), remodel 2 bathrooms, re plumb completely, re wire completely, reheat with new duct work in one unit. Some misc concrete and gutter work. I bid at 36k and felt I could come down 10 maybe 15 %. Winning bidder? 23k! I couldn't pay my heating sub and buy the material for that. DanT
Great post, Jeff. I agree that we as carpenters/contractors are our own worst enemies. There's no other skilled profession I can think of that under-values its services the way we do.
We're allowing customers, whether they're homeowners, architects, or paper contractors to profit from our labors, when a lot of us aren't even covering a living wage, let alone overhead or profit.
Greg,
I think Jeff and Stephen have hit the nail on the head. Why don't we present more of a unified front on this issue? And, why do we dicker over price with a customer? No one takes their car to three shops and asks for proposals before they get them fixed.
The big difference is that most garages are brick and mortar organizations that require overhead and profit to support themselves while anybody with $500 worth of tools from HD can say he's a contractor.
Robert, I couldn't agree more. Now all we need to do is convince all the contractors out there that Jeff & Stephen's way is the right way. Wonder how many will see the light? ; )
Greg,
When my family first moved to Florida my father was surprised at how cheaply framers were working. Slowly and quitely he talked to a few in the area and told them from now on he wanted X per sqft and they were insane for not asking for at least the same. It worked out but mostly because it was a small group of guys who were always bitching about being underpaid already.
When the economies in Texas and Oklahoma went bad and lots of guys came to Florida it was back to the throat cutting ways. We managed to stay busy because we delivered a properly framed house with no call-backs or problems and did it in a timely manner.
The only thing I can think of that would put guys on the same sheet of music is a licensing program like Plumbers and Electricians have.
I recently opened up and I charge $43 hr in a rural southeastern state that is undergoing a building boom that(because of the scenery) doesn't look to end anytime soon. That covers all my expenses, taxes and what I pay myself which includes my health insurance(not my families), a small retirement contribution and a bonus at Christamas. I tack 10% on for profit. Ultimately I pay myself a little more than I did working as a superintendent on some high end residential projects($350-$550 sq. ft).
I do mainly carpentry work but can do just about anything else if asked, not as cheap but usually just as good as a specialist. I can also pull in some good subcontractors when neccessary.
I had a first time customer pay me the other day with a check made out to cash. I said what's this and she said she wasn't sure if I wanted to pay taxes or not. She's had other people work for her that do so under the table. Then she starts complaining about what I charge. Apparently there are people who are surviving on a lot less. I know she gladly pays her mechanic $60-$80 an hour to keep her Mercedes running good. She had a guy install some new windows and siding around them a year and half ago and they are leaking pretty bad. She probably paid him peanuts but she got what she payed for and she wants me to correct it but still wants to complain about what I'm charging her to do it right. I don't understand why people don't understand that they may have to pay more for someone with a good reputation but that they will only have to pay that person once instead of paying a piece of crap 2-3 times to do and re-do the same thing.
I quoted a re-siding job that was going to take about a week for me and a helper($18 hr. my burdened cost i.e. taxes, insurance, etc.). I didn't get the job and I asked the homeowner why. He found someone who agreed the job would take about a week but would only charge $25/hr. for 2 PEOPLE!
I couldn't believe it. How do I compete with this?
Whenever I start to think that I should charge less I have to remind myself that I'm charging a fair price to do the best work I know how to do and that I shouldn't compromise because some are driving a rusty 20 year old truck and living in a trailer and have no expenses and are content to live on $10 hr. without paying taxes.
Anyway, I'm venting and it's nothing I'm sure y'all havent heard before.
dogfish,
during your vent ( LOL)
you asked----"how do I compete with this"----in reference to a "competitor" doing a siding job for $25/hour covering 2 people.
the short answer is----you don't compete with them----that only degrades YOU and brings you down to THEIR level.
In truth----you were NEVER going to get that job anyhow---so don't let it bother you. judging by the price your prospect eventually went with----they would never have paid your price.
what I would suggest, however---is that you change how the customer sees your price. In the situation you described---it was easy for the prospect to choose $25/hour over your price of $43/hour( plus $18 for the helper)
But if you had given the prospect a FIRM price of, say $1720----it would be harder to compare. Of course your prospect is perfectly capable of doing the math and concluding that your competitor will only cost them $1000. but remember----you were NEVER going to get this job anyhow!!!!!!
The advantage to this is----down the road, when your $1000 competitor bones the job, when he runs over the proposed time---and tries to bill for it, when he leaves the yard looking like a pigsty,---when he shows up for work hungover at 10:00am---and leaves at 3:00, when your prospect and their neighbors tire of having your competitors rattling old, oil burning heap of a "truck "fouling up the neighborhood-----------------your $1720 will start to look good. you will start to get referalls from jobs you bid on---but didn't get!!!!! They will say" Who did I get to side my house---forget them---here is the guy I WISH I had side my house" Dogfish"----don't even think of getting the jokers who worked on my project
and the beauty is---the referalls are all pre-sold on your pricing structure----AND they have already heard the horror stories of what the $25/hour jacklegs did.
It takes a while----but it will come to you,
best wishes, Stephen
Edited 6/30/2005 6:46 am ET by Stephen_Haz
Would you really want a dogfish siding your house?
:) Just kidding, all in fun, dawg.The heck, you say?
I didn't tell the guy what I charged an hour although he asked. I told him I like to bid each job individually and gave him a lump sum price.
I asked him what the other guy was charging and he told me. I almost wanted to go to the job the week they were going to be working on it just to see if they were as you described, half drunk, etc. It might have been entertaining.
Thanks for the support.
You probably handled everything just fine.
It's nice to know what someone else is charging for the same project-----but personally I would never ask. My attitude would be that it is" beneath me" to even care what someone else is charging! LOL After all, my costs are my costs----I wouldn't allow someone elses price to exert a downward pressure on mine--------- but it would be nice to sieze an opportunity to bump things up.
Stephen
The problem with the unified front is quality of work. The work mechanics do(not taking away from there talents) is more cut and dry. On a very basic level it is remove, and reinstall.
Carpentry and remodeling involve a lot more personal touch. A water pump will only go on one way. One carpenter may frame 4 walls in the same house, 4 different ways.
Robert, I'm not going to comment about all the particulars, but I can answer your thread question.
I want to make at least five figures per month, net, in passive income.
That's the first goal.
blue
Robert,
Jerald has got it going on. (I wonder if he might be running with Stacey's mom?)
Really hard to find a flaw in his math.
Anyhow, For skilled carpenter work I would set my annual budget up something like this:
I live in a somewhat backward part of the country, so if these numbers appear a little low this is the reason. I blame it on the water. Or maybe its the elevation?
52 weeks in a year x 40hrs a week = 2080hrs.
- holidays, vacation, personal & sick leave = 280 hrs.
= balance of 1820 hours = 100%
- education, administrative, tool service & buy, sales bidding etc = 22% = 400 hrs.
Billable straight time hrs. = 1420
Annual salary = $44,000.00
(I try to base the salary on what it cost to make a decent living?)
Benefits & Taxes = $18,000.00
Truck - Tools & Indirect overhead = $ 21,000.00
Labor profit @ 5% margin = $4,368.42
TOTAL = $87,368.42 / (billable S.T. hrs.) = 1420 = invoice rate per hr. = $61.52
Profit margin on materials = (5%) = .95 divisor of cost
I personally would not charge any more for overtime work?
This is probably ignorant of me, but I have never been accused of being the sharpest tool in the shed. I did spent an xtra year in second grade in an effort to apply the applicable math.
In Jeralds area given the higher cost of living I can see where adding a $1,000.00 a month to ones salary and bumping profits up. One may need the $80.00 plus per hour.
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Edited 7/26/2005 5:48 pm ET by TomMaynard
Edited 7/26/2005 10:34 pm ET by TomMaynard
Edited 7/26/2005 10:35 pm ET by TomMaynard
Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper
Roger that.
Great post.