I have bought some land (closed two days ago), and hope to build this year. I have found that Visio (which I also use at work) has many shapes (walls, windows, doors, dimension annotations, furniture, etc. etc.), and I’ve done a 1st-floor floorplan and front elevation using that tool.
Right now I envision 4 dormers, 2 gables, and a garage whose roof is rotated 90 degress from the rest of the house. I think I am seriously in need of some house design software with 3D capability before I tackle the 2nd floor and roof.
I’d like something that is both easy to use and ultimately helpful to any architect to whom I might eventually turn over the design.
Suggestions, anyone?
Replies
3D Home Architect is reputed fairly good for the homeowner level. I costs about the price of a meal out.Doesn't sound like you want to get into pro packages that cost 2-3000 bucks or more.
I'm always curious about that last sentence. I see or hear it so many times. It is important for any designer or archy to listen to what you want for home design, but to have already done the work and then present them with it, seems redundant at best ,a nd insulting at worst. If you are already doing the design work, al you need is a draftsman ( which some programs can be for you) or a darn good builder.
By forcing a good architect into the box you create for him/her, you deny the possibility creativity on your behalf.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
>It is important for any designer or archy to listen to what you want for home design, but to have already done the work and then present them with it, seems redundant at best ,a nd insulting at worst.>By forcing a good architect into the box you create for him/her, you deny the possibility creativity on your behalf.Absolutely! And not just creativity, but also experience, knowledge, expertise.I have a client like this now. Every week-ish he sends a new floor plan by mail. But that tells me nothing be/c it only tells what he wants where, and nothing about why. A floor plan should result from looking at the spaces within the house structure, the orientation of the house to the site and to the sun, the habits of the people, and many other factors. A designer can look at your floor plan and learn nothing about your needs except which rooms you want next to which other rooms. It's far more useful when I am able to learn that he rises early, while she sleeps later. Or they intend to turn one bedroom suite into a mother-in-law apartment two years from now, but it will serve as the oldest child's bedroom till he goes to college. Or she brings clients in to her office, while he never does, so there are different access requirements. Or they have lots of family visit and need to create alternate sleeping spaces, versus entertaining only friends who don't sleep over, and so can have a more open plan.It's not about wanting or not wanting to entertain the client's ideas. It's about getting to the important part--their goals, their wants, their needs, and most importantly, the reasons behind those wants and needs--and not putting the cart before the horse by placing walls and windows before you have a proper definition of scope and requirements.And that's not even getting into issues related to efficiency of installing electrical, plumbing, and hvac systems. With a fully developed plan and 3D drawing as the STARTING point, no designer will know what adjustments and changes are allowed to improve upon these systems, to optimize the structure components of the house, or to provide for traffic flow and work flow.With my client I was able to back them off to a discussion of rooms and spaces, starting with a list of what they wanted out of each room and how they'd use it and what other rooms it should be near and not near. Amazing the detail that came out that wasn't covered anywhere in the floor plans. Turns out they were doing floor plans just out of uncontrollable enthusiasm. Now that I've had the chance to catch up with their thinking, I'm able to give them enough assignments to keep them busy while I bring them along in the proper sequence, with skipping critical steps.
I had a client liekt hat who was sending me monster sized scans and broderbund files. Had to finally ask him to quit because he couldn't or wouldn't learn to resize files of compress. They were choking my email inbox and shutting down the PC.When a client presents me with a predrawn, I ask dozens of questions about it and how the home will be used to get to the meat of what they really want. The floorplan they show is only their interpretation of what will provide what they want or need, sometimes only o9f the want s and needs of the one of them who did the drawing. I listen to both.Then i ask iof they might be willing to entertain an alternate concept to what they show that will satisfy their desires. I generally have something in mind while listening to them but I have leartned not to present half baked ideas verbally.If they are willing tio explore, I get the deposit and go to work. If they are unwilling, I let them know that all they really need is a draftsman, unless they already do have a pretty good plan to work with. That is partt of the beautyy of design/build. I see if they are infleible up front - before it becomes a problem in process and construction.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The biggest concern with floor plans presented up front is that the conversation is focused on a critique of what they've drawn...or at least that's how it can seem to them if you aren't really careful. If I'm talking about needs, it's a judgment-less conversation, be/c their needs are their needs without being right or wrong. But if we're looking at plans, then there are things that can be wrong, and that's not the best starting point. I don't wanna start off by tearing down someone's drawing. It takes more work to start from a plan than from ideas, and the more detailed the plan, the more "set" they are on it, and the harder it is to get things on a productive track. I agree with you that if the plan is that detailed, then they should just finish it out themselves, or use a draftsman. The shame is that they won't know what they're missing. I've never yet seen a predrawn floor plan for a thin shell that I didn't feel I could improve on enough to save the client my entire fee in hard cost savings. But not everyone is receptive to input. They're better served by a draftsman.
That is why I couch my interview in terms of a series of questions. I ask "why" a hundred times seeming curious and not antagonistic, while focusing on their plans. That is a way to get into their psyche without attacking the plans that they already have. In asking about an altermnative plan, I can point out that the reason they have come to me is for my experience and expertise and that I would like to give them full value.Aside - I don't mean to attack the original poster on this thing either. I am just curious abpout where it comes from because I seem to see it more - possibly a result of the internet and the proliferation of cad prgrams, money management programs, medical research and legal letters programs, etc making everyman his own 'expert'
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin
Slightly off the original Q but do you separate the price for the design and the build and/or do you design projects and then not build it because you forsaw some problem with the client?
I have three designed that I did not build. Two of them have never been built by anyone, one was a design for a friend in another location where I don't work.Of the two that never were built, one was for a client who decided they would rather spend the money on a swimming pool ( aka water storage reservoir for fire proteection to reduce insurance rates) than on the game rooms. They loved and paid for the design.
The other was for a lady who turned out to be increasingly flakey as we got further into the process. We eventually pated company, she having paid for the design work, and having ealized she could not afford all the amenities she wanted.Yes, I charge separately for the design work. It has value and I refuse to give it away. By separating fees from construction, I separate binding agreements so either party can back out.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin and tony
I was intrigued that you both said that you separate the design and the build since you both show obvious experience in the biz. I'd be curious to know how you charge for the design,ie, fixed price or by the hour? I have always done a fixed price based on a percentage of how much I think the project will be worth but recently spent too much time with clients who kept changing their minds and to boot I didn't get the build part. Many evenings and weekend hours for little pay. After that I swore I would't separate design/build but maybe it was a blessing that I didn't build for these people.
I've had customers keep coming back for changes and revisions and sometimes I initiate the revisions after starting to build, (in which case i often do that work for free) and I have had customers right at the first concept say they are loving it and ready to build. Both can be something to watch out for.The ones who love changes will never stop, even after the ground is broke. It seems inbred with certain people.I charge hourly, and am pretty well able to estimate the fee up front by now, sans revisions. I add for copying and printing.Most designers I have spoken or correspomnded with on this subject who do set fee work will state that they prepare three copies of X number of pages of plans and elevations and sections for that fee. They stipulate a process starting with concept drawings, then plans, then up to three minor revisions, then final working drawings/construction prints for that fee. Additional work or copies of prints are extra cost.Anytime a professional works for a set fee, he must state what is or is not included in that fee. For example, time spent explaining the drawings to a builder or DIY who is incapable of reading drawings...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin and tony
Thank you both for your coherent answers. I think in most cases I'll stick with a set fee but set out more guidelines. That seeems so obvious now since that's how you'd price a build. live and learn. Custom spec houses sound like fun, a dream come true really. thanks again to both.
Cheers
ian
Be well.
We all learn and adapt thru our experience and that of others.I wsn't trying to convince you how to do it, only reporting how I do. I know there are plenty who do both ways and good reasons for the choice both ways.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Be well. We all learn and adapt thru our experience and that of others.
I wsn't trying to convince you how to do it, only reporting how I do. I know there are plenty who do both ways and good reasons for the choice both ways.
Major ditto on the above!
I have learned almost every scrap of knowledge I possess through the school of hard knocks. If I can save one person one scrape it is worth all the effort it takes.both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
As I know all the folks I design custom houses for, I charge them a flat fee for the construction documents. If I am drawing a set for an experienced builder other than myself, the sets are pretty basic and the fee reflects this. If the owner in persnickety or it is an owner/builder situation, I usually provide far more information in order to protect the owners. Again, I price accordingly. I am wrapping up a set for a residence in Holly Springs MS and it will be constructed by a owner/builder with me "acting" as builder for the bank. I charge a hourly fee for providing oversight services and provide the maximum amount of information my clients can afford. In the case of this house it means 31 - 11x17 sheets and includes alrchitectural, structural, electrical layout and switching and backgrounds for plumbing and HVAC.
When I am the builder, it get a bit muddier. I try and stick with the "basic" set and absorb any field changes in my construction fees. Sometimes this is not possible and then we discuss redesign fees.
As I stated before, I always give local owners the option of having someone else price and ultimately construct their home. If they go that route (only one has) I charge them for construction site visits on an hourly basis.
I am toying with the possibility of a partnership with a local builder in a very active growth area of the Texas Hill Country and we are going to build "custom" spec homes. That will likely be some mix of all of the above depending on when a buyer comes along.
both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
Edited 1/6/2005 7:35 am ET by Tony
Ahhh. If only you lived in my area Tony! That's exactly what I would like to find - someone who can design pretty well, has enough field experience to create a cost-effective design, will decouple design and construction fees and will act as builder for the bank and charge hourly for his work during the construction phase.That's a rare combo as far as I can see.
I see by your profile you are in California. That is a tough nut, much like the Gulf Coast. Earthquakes and Hurricanes lend a special set of problems to housing. I told a friend that recently completed a house just off Galveston Bay that he could make his house significantly cheaper if we could lower the roof pitch enough that the overall height of the roof was less than the height of the house below it. No go, his wife wanted the 12 on 12. It added many thousand dollars to the overall cost.
Even with that and 12 foot ceilings throughout and a freestanding three car garage, he completed the house for just over $60 per square foot.
It looks cheap to me in a few places, but they are happy.both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
Actually, earthquake isn't a big deal. I'm not in a seismically active zone like LA or the Bay Area. I'm actually up in the mountains, so the main engineering challenge is simply snow load (we have a code requirement of 120 psf snow load), but I don't care about that because no matter who draws the plans, it's going to have to get an engineer's stamp.Local designers, who typically live several thousand feet lower, are just clueless about snow. Part of the reason I started drawing my own plans is that I haven't seen any houses house around here that look well-designed. Forget aesthetics for a minute, lots of stupid practical issues and that's what I was alluding to in my first post in this thread.Example 1: many houses in our neighborhood have decks that run parallel to the roof ridge and metal roofs. Effect: literally three feet of snow will let loose and pour straight onto the deck, often with someone on it who has just slammed a door. One neighbor had to move the house entry to the other side *after* they'd been in the place for a few winters. Another neighbor had his 12'x24'x12' high deck ripped right off his house two winters ago.Example 2: most architect/designer houses here save square footage by... having no entry/mudroom. I'm looking out at four feet of snow on the ground and most houses have no place to kick off shoes except the living room. Example 3: large roof valleys on 12/12 pitch with metal roof. Effect: that house now has snow that has accumulated in the valley that is easily 10 feet deep... and there's another two feet forecast for today.Furthermore, most of the designs I've seen going up recently in an area near here (not much building right where I am, but there is not far away) are ridiculous IMO - mostly 6000 sf "log" homes for quarter acre lots. They look absurd. The logs are so perfectly milled and these houses are so giant that I actually think they would look better with vinyl siding. Again, this is client-driven, but it does mean that I can't look at house, say "Oh that's sort of my style. I wonder who did it."So I figured if the local designers were that clueless, I might as well do the basic floorplan myself. If I hire a designer, I want someone who's going to point out where I'm being stupid and STOP ME! I can be stupid all on my own. I don't need a pro for that!
Your points are all well taken. That is one of the tremendous fallacies with "designers" inexperienced in the region they are working in. I was in commercial architecture for many years and we maintained an active "site adapt" program with Circuit City. As the resident "how do you build this guru" in the office I always got called in whenever they needed to learn how to build insulated slabs, isolated utilities, whatever.
I found in many cases the most appropriate answer to be "I don't know, but I will find out". Knowing your limitations is perhaps the most self releasing thing a person can do.
BTW - You left one major screw up out ... gable roofs on garages parallel to the face with the garage door. Great way to assure that you will never get the car out of a garage during a storm.
Good luck with your house, post up or shoot me an email if have any questions.
teeds [at] whiterockstudio.com - Replace the [at] with @, spiders can't read it this way ;-)both God and the devil are in the details
If you cannot visualize it in 3D, you will not be able to draw it in 2D and it cannot be constructed in 3D
dreamer,
I guess one way to explain this is that a cad program is only a tool, no matter how expensive or well recommended it might be.
A hammer is a tool.
You can buy a ten dollar one or a hundered dollar plus hammer. But iof you don know which nail to use, how many to drive, or where, or how to aim the hammer to hit the nail instead of the wrong nail, it will do no good.
Same thing with a cad program. When I went shopping and comparing, one rep said to me, " No CAD program can or ever will, read your mind!"
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks, piffin and cloudhidden for your comments. Following your advice, I shall try to limit the use of the design I am working on as a basis for discussion with an architect. The value for him/her would then arise as I explained my thinking and reasoning behind the choices I made. I think I am prepared to find out that I've done many things wrong in trying to achieve what I want:Minimize steps: MBR on 1st floor; 1st floor as close to grade as practical.
No walk out basement: Lot is flat.
W & D on first floor.
MBR on east side of house. French doors from MBR onto a patio.
Minimize height of and number of vaulted ceilings. House should be cozy.
Table in the kitchen (no "breakfast nooks" for me). Separate dining room for fancy eatin'.
Wood burning stove (save on fireplace cost).
2-car garage, with mud room between house and garage.
Small office on first floor would be nice, but not required.
LR needs room for piano.I'm pretty set on a house that sits relatively low to the ground (see first point above), with the second floor built into the attic with some gables and dormers, and a short knee wall (say, 2 ft). I am kind of set on a timberframe, with vaulted ceilings in the LR and upstairs BRs, but want to minimize the roof pitch so those "vaults" don't get too high, and am willing to accept the reduced sq footage on the 2nd floor.
Now THAT'S a wonderful start. All useful info. I'd welcome a beginning like that from any of my clients. You DO have a right to ask for what you want. Keep a focus on the goals and you can't go very wrong. Best of luck to you.
Most of that sounds quite sensible. I don't mean for you to feel like any thing you want is "wrong" as you put it. It is just that there are always better ways of doing some things. I never do the same things twice, always improving each time.
I'm the kind of guy who could not make a copy of a Shakespere play without improving it some way.So many of the things a designer or archy could help you with are size and grouping of those rooms/ spaces. He/she wil be familiar with how large a space is right for certain uses and numbers of occupants to be comfortable, and how those individual spaces interact with one another for light flow, structure, appearance, etc. That could lead to a a "better" arrangement
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
itsa.... you want specialized structure.. timberframes are not run of the mill
make sure you find an architect/designer who specializes in them
often yuo can find a timberframe company who has in-house design capabilities
where are you located ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's right, some layouts just cannot be done in timberframe. You have to work within the modular constraints
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Disclaimer ... I am an Architect and I have designed and built many homes and hope to complete many more.
I have been known to say ... Now that we know the answer, can we determine the question?
I'd like something that is both easy to use and ultimately helpful to any architect to whom I might eventually turn over the design.
Good luck, every architect and designer has their own way of doing things and their own software. I use AutoCAD and I am getting ready to load 2005. Not that that matters, becasue I have written my own front end that acts the way I want it to.
I recently received a DWG file set for a house that was being designed for a friend by the builder. He wanted me to help make it more "Tuscan". It was a one story and wrong in almost every way in terms of scale.
The files were a total nighmare and every interior wall was 4 inches thick and every exterior wall was 11 inches thick. Personally, I haven't got a clue how the builder intended to build the house, because in 40 years of architecture and construction, I have never designed a house with those wall thicknesses. I guess the rooms will just shrink as needed. I pitty the last room in a string, becasue it will lose a lot of space.
I guess I am trying to say that no software file will be helpful, because any architect worth his salt should draw the house from scratch. This will enable him to understand your dreams and needs as well as respond to the marketplace.
As an architect I often tell my clients they are the architect, it is only my job to translate their dreams into reality. That is not to say that I don't try and make their house better, but I need to always remember that it is "their" house, not mine.
Edited 1/1/2005 8:58 pm ET by Tony
I am more interested in a recommendation for software that is easy for a tyro like me to learn and use - not necessarily so that an architect or draftsperson can import the design and actually make use of it, though I suppose my first post may have made that impression. Think "prototype design that helps convey ideas" when I say "helpful".I want the chance to drive a tool myself so that I can do my own "what ifs" and also to help me capture ideas - integrated, multiple ideas - into a single design. Just doing a first floor floorplan enabled me to see sight lines - from the LR to the MBR (I reduced them), and from the K to the GR (I improved those), by pushing some walls here and there. I also get to tinker with window placement, bathroom layout, and placing my own existing furniture in each room. And w.r.t. timberframe rules, I did start with a Timberpeg design. Some of my interior walls may have to be adjusted, as I have learned that those posts don't move readily.I figure by this time all the architects on this thread know I'm full of s***. I really do want to design my own house... :)I am in Central Mass near NH.
3d home architect.... not the broderbund one..
Chief Architect lite
Chief Architect
SoftPlan
Vectorworks
those are all 3d....from about $400 to $5000Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nothing wrong with wanting to design your own house and you are not full of poop for wanting to. Architects don't have a lock on all knowledge. Fact of the matter is, most of them don't don't know poop from wild honey.
The fellow I referred to (owner) was lost in the 3D images that the builder was showing him. They were not worth the ink and paper they were printed on. I wish them luck. If I was spending $1,000,000 + on a house I would have it designed by someone that KNEW what they were doing.
Don't get lost in 3D. If you can't feel the flow of the house in plan, no amount of 3D majic is going to make it "right". It sounds like you are already on the right track.
I would recommend AutoCAD LT. It is a good program that will allow you to push and pull walls at will and still have something you can give to a "drafting student" at the local community college to turn into 3D if you want.
The only commands you "need" need to know is line, offset, erase, trim, and fillet. The rest are just fancy versions of the above commands. Insert and wblock will allow you to insert your furniture files. Draw each piece of furniture as a separate file and insert it as needed.
Well, if your recommendation is that I stick with 2D for my own work, I think I can just stick with Visio.Wish I had 1M for a house (well, maybe I don't...).
tony... i've used acad lt... no way would i recomend that over 3d home architect or chf lt or chief
it sounds like the minimum investment would be his best solution..
3d home arch.
edit:
itsa... don't forget that the money you invest in the software is inconsequential compared to the time devoted to learning the program..
if it was one house... to me.. id'design it on a drafting board.. it's as intuitive as it gets
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/1/2005 10:16 pm ET by Mike Smith
I prefer professional programs. Chief Architect is the program the "builder" used that I referred to. He had lots of pretty images, but when your wall thicknesses are off 1/2 inch every time you draw a wall it ceases to be reality based.
Consumer programs make it easy to put lines on the screen ...
Another quote of mine ... Computers and CAD only make you draw bad faster
I have been on the boards since 1964, began with linen, ruling pens etc. I moved to CAD in 1984 for a $20M hotel/office/retail complex in Dallas and have never looked back. Drafting is all about communication, nothing more and nothing less. Design is all about getting the dream "right".
Architects are guilty of many things, ego, not knowing their butts from a hole in the ground and not knowing the first thing about how to construct ANYTHING. Many, if not most, are guilty on all counts. I'm not and it drives me crazy when people use exacting tools like CAD in cavalier ways. That is what the "builder" I am referring to did his work.
I agree with your comment about pencil and paper. There is perhaps no better way to synconize the mind and the hand than to slow the process down to the speed at which you can put it on paper.
Walls are not pencil lead thick (except at 1" = 100' scale) and as an example ... if you are designing a building per ADDAG, you better know what your "actual" dimensions are, not nominal. I know of no wall that works out to be 4 inches thick with either actual of nominal dimensions.
I know that is extreme for a house, but you never know ...
Somebody, anybody ... take my damn soapbox ;-)
tony... you're blaming the software for the "builder's" incompetency
chief can draw any wall with any material, in any thickness you spec....
same with floors, and roofs ... any building component
so can softplan, and vectorworks..
there is no limitation in any of those programs to designing in 12" = 1' scale
i also switched from the boards to acad in '84.. but it only took about a year to realize that i would be better off back on the boards
it wasn't until '97 that i took another look at cad.. i looked at acad lt, softplan, vectorworks & chief..
that was version 5.. now we're on vs. 9.5
a friend ( whose college roomate wrote "Inside AutoCad" ) uses VW in his Park Ave. Architectural firm.. he employs 3 architects on staff and 5 draftsmen....
i know for a fact that anything that can be drawn in acad can be drawn in Softplan, Chief, or VW..
there are one or two others that are more popular among architects.. like Archicad..
anyways..
mostly it comes down to the proficiency of the user..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike:
anyways..
mostly it comes down to the proficiency of the user..
My point exactly ... your comments about using the boards is well taken. I am not trying to knock Chief Architect, I know where the problem lies. Another friend drew a house in Excel, dimensioning every room with no allowances for interior or exterior wall thicknesses. He is a general contractor and should know better.
Architects are in the position they are in because design has become a tasteless commodity that is often brushed aside. Many of the folks that enter the local HD or Lowes has watched HGTV or something similar and "knows" what they want, so they start cutting wood and pounding nails, often to the chagrin of their spouse.
Design to a building project is like the difference between a pulp novel and the Iliad. They are both written on paper, but one will be celebrated far longer. Architects and designers (if they will shuck their ego) can bring this magic to the projects in a way that no untrained professional can.
Architects are in the position they hold in the overall process because of abdication of responsibility. A short century ago they were considered master builders and were treated with the respect that such responsibility deserved. A century of shirking responsibility has brought us to the point we are today.
It will only get worse for the profession IMHO, because the fastest growing trend in commercial architecture here in Texas, according to a recent article in my professional newsletter, is the outsourcing of construction documents off shore. You can kiss architecture good-by if that trend continues. Architects are generally considered prima donas. Most tradespeople I know believe that we know little or nothing about the building process and this will only add fuel to the fire.
I started in construction cleaning up and loading the second floor of apartments with sheetrock when I was 14. I went on to be a site superintendent, general superintendent, project manager and just before leaving the field, owner of a millwork company. I learned more about construction techniques in 5 minutes in the field than I ever learned in school.
Design is innate in some folks and learned for others. That being said, design is the ability to conceptualize a whole project. I have every project I have every designed locked within my head and am now working (in my head) on the complex I want to build for myself. It is the hardest project I have ever attempted and yet the most satisfying as it is mine, all mine. I will design everything and construct ( OK supervise ;-) ) the entire complex.
I often tell my clients to create a three ring binder broken down into the various area of the house. Their assignment is to collect images of things they like and stick them into the appropriate folder. It is my job as their designer to see the continuity in their ideas. I recently reduced a client to tears when she looked at the plans I was wrapping up. She told me she didn’t know how I had got into her head and drawn her dream house, but I had. That is the way it is supposed to be.
Ahhhh, back to the point at hand ... itsa, I wish you 100% success in your housing project. I only really wanted to say don’t get lost in the software. In many ways both Mike and I are saying the same thing in that respect. The design of your home is far more important that which program (be it software or lead) that you use.
"Another friend drew a house in Excel, dimensioning every room with no allowances for interior or exterior wall thicknesses. He is a general contractor and should know better."A friend of mine does commercial finish work and has made some of the same comments about some of the plans that have come out of architects office.Just because they can be drawn on paper does not mean that they can be built.
Just because they can be drawn on paper does not mean that they can be built.
True statement, but that point remind me of a time when a contractor said something I had drawn could not be built. I had the distinct pleasure of getting out my tools and showing him it could be built. Funny, but it was the last complaint I got from him throughout the entire project.
Another complained about a special brick I has designed for a specific spot on an office building. He complained about the cost and when asked the price ... $5,000 per 1000 or $5 each, I tossed him a 20 for all four on the project. I thought the owner was going to pee in his pants, he was laughing so hard.
I have been told I don't suffer fools well.
A friend of mine does commercial finish work and has made some of the same comments about some of the plans that have come out of architects office.
Many folks in an architect offices have NO clue how to put ANYTHING together. They are simply regurgitating details that have been drawn back in the dark ages of the firm by the now long departed Chief Draftsman.
I wish it was a requirement for state licensure to have at least 2 years of field experience prior to sitting for the exam. Not in a contractor's office, but in the field ... pounding stakes, nails whatever.
Regarding costs: I always separate design and construction fees and ask owners if they want to get a bid other than mine when I am considering constructing the project.
Tiony, It was my hope with my first probing comment to itsadream to push this thread into a deeper discussion of the market and cultural trends that have affected this portion of the residential construction industry. it has thus far grown beuyond my hopes into a great, memorable discussion, no small thanks to your mighty efforts here. If you are half as good with design as you prove yourself to be with the written word, your clients are well served. Don't be shy around here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin:
Thanks for the complement. I sincerely appreciate it.
I have long been frustrated with the slide in quality of product and personnel in our profession. Many don't consider it a profession, but I and many folks on this site do. It is a noble profession and we are producing buildings that serve many and varied needs. My girlfriend recently commented that she was afraid that I would not like her because she was not as well educated as I. I told her the story of a partner I had and the best lead carpenter I have ever has the pleasure to work with. Neither could read or write and I valued their knowledge then beyond measure and the things I learned from them serves me even today, almost 30 years since I last worked with them.
I am perhaps one of a kind, having been in all facets of our profession from lay out to forms, pouring concrete, framing, finish carpentry, millwork, estimation, project management and now architecture.
I have asked God many times why I am here and as yet, I still don't know the answer for sure. I have found a niche that benefits from my varied knowledge, historical restoration and preservation. I spend my days trying to breathe life back into the small town downtowns of Texas. It doesn't pay real well but I have a smile on my face and I get to work with some of the finest folks on earth, owners as well as tradesmen. It is rare that the tradesmen don't come up and ask where my next project is and say they don't want to miss out. I like to believe it is because I always try and be fair. I can and am a complete #### when people don't live up to their own innate capabilities. I refuse to accept excuses and the inherent limitations of said excuses.
I could go on for hours about quality and/or lack thereof, but I will simply state that I believe in unerring reverence to quality, regardless of the impact to the bottom line. If I sold a project wrong, so be it. That is my mistake and I will suffer gracefully.
Regarding housing, I design 4 or 5 houses a year and they are always for friends. I do not advertise for housing and will not because I believe I have to walk in the shoes of the people I work with when designing their home. I consider it a sacred honor to know as much as I do about my clients and to be able to be a small part of them realizing their dreams.
right. Part of home ownership is the fulfillment of ones fantasies. If you can't get a glimpse of that fantasy, you have no hope of fulfilling it. That means they have to trust you and have some sort of relationship with you.Relationships preclude the idea of being a disposable commodity.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
if it was one house... to me.. id'design it on a drafting board
I agree ... sort of. One of the major benefits of cad, even a 2d program, is that you don't wear holes in the paper making changes. Or you can copy the whole mess to a new file and make what-if changes easily. And, assuming it is drawn accurately, you don't end up with closets that look ok on paper but are actually only 6" deep cuz the dimension string was added wrong. I have seen many hand-drawn plans that cannot possibly work, but the HO thinks it will cuz there is no scale to their sketch. I think the problem arises when a DYI designer gets anal with details and can't see the forest for the trees, rather than just using the program for clean, accurate sketching.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
>I think the problem arises when a DYI designer gets anal with details and can't see the forest for the treesYa wanna have fun...add a concave roof! They put in doors that stick 3/4 out of the shell, showers where there's 3' vertical standing room, fridges that will be bisected by concrete! It's always a little awkward to tell them that it won't quite fit the way they planned...
Hmm.. This turned into a bit of a long ramble... so much so that I divided it into chapters in case the OP actually wants to read the part that concerns him ;-) Sorry about that.RE ARCHITECTS"Architects are in the position they are in because design has become a tasteless commodity"That may be, but I think another reason is that people tend to not notice buildings that work (often designed by architects), but they do notice buildings that function terribly (usually designed by architects). There are a lot of architects who are so wrapped up in "high concept" that they design buildings that just don't work and they are unpleasant to live in, to work in and to visit. I worked in a building like that for ten years. Looks cool from the outside. The most unpleasant space I've ever been in and there was no way to clean the windows short of putting a guy in a 60' boom bucket. In terms of houses, you look at a lot of online plans and plans in books by architects and think "Wow, that's stupid! If I'm going to end up with stupid, I might as well live with my own stupid."My cousin is a structural engineer and he said that over 50% of the houses that he engineers never get built. Why? The architect talks people into all of these cool features and strange shapes. He said lots of these houses look great in the elevations, but they don't work inside at all ("You want closets? That will destroy the design") and will cost $500/sf to actually build. He recently had an architect design a house (yes, a single-family dwelling) that would have required many 16" steel I-beams to make the thing stand up! Result, the clients throw away thousands of dollars and never get a house.That said, I do think a good architect is well worth it if you can find on. I did, in fact, find one house designer I really like - architecture degree, but went into construction instead of apprenticing and getting his license, big Christopher Alexander and Demming fan, specializes in smaller residential homes. I would definitely have gone with him for design, but he only sells a whole design/build package that I don't think I want and he lives three states away.RE SOFTWARE vs PAPER; DIY vs PROAnyway, as to the original question on software. My cousin suggested getting lots of tracing paper (he had another name for it) and putting designs on paper. When you want to make changes, you can just draw something on the paper and lay it over the existing design and just keep at it. He said that's a lot quicker and generates ideas better than any software. It also works better if you're doing this as a team (i.e. a couple).Once you have some pretty good ideas on paper, *then* you can put it in a CAD program. Actually, he said that if I would put it on paper, he would do the CAD drawings to give me a 3-D look if I wanted. That made it sound so easy to do the CAD drawings that I too thought I would just whip them out myself. I'm computer savvy after all and can run Photoshop pretty well. When it came to it, though, I realized that, unlike him, I simply don't have 25 years of experience doing CAD and it just ain't that easy. Even if I pay someone 10x my hourly wage, I would think that would be "cheap" because I'm sure a pro with a lot of experience can do in eight hours what would take me 80. If you are retired, or have unlimited time, that's one thing. For me, I think in the end hiring a pro will be "cheaper" than doing it myself, quality issues aside. If you don't have any CAD experience, plan on a significant time investment before you can draw anything useful at all.That said, I find putting plans on paper is a good way to think about what I value and what I don't, a good way to get a feel for priorities. My wife noted recently that the most important part of drawing our plans is taking notes on why some things go where they do, why they are a certain size, why they sit in a certain relationship to other elements, why we moved the stairs between #32 and #33. We think that when we sit down with a designer, those notes, more than any drawings, are what will really help guide someone to create a space that we will enjoy.RE SOFTWARE PACKAGESBTW I've tried a few packages and they were all terrible except ArchiCad. I'm sorry that I don't remember the ones I've tried, but they were none of the ones mentioned (Sierra Home Architect is one I vaguely remember). Mostly "consumer" programs that have trial downloads. Forget it.Also, forget the Broderbund series. They used to be designed by the same people who did Chief Architect, but that ended with version 4 or 5. Current version is terrible. The CA people are now doing the consumer product for Better Homes and I've heard good things about it.Archicad, though a complicated pro-level program, is actually much easier to use than the consumer-level ones I tried. You decide on studding, dry wall thickness, sheathing and declare that to be an exterior wall and you get the right dimensions, not some arbitrary design value like '4" wall'.A bit of a ramble... sorry.
lots of tracing paper (he had another name for it) Butter paper
Once you have some pretty good ideas on paper, *then* you can put it in a CAD program. Some people actually think better with a pencil than a mouse. The key is to know when to go from concept to details.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
onion skinMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'vwe also heard it termed onion skin
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Pif and Mike ... I have never heard it called onion skin. Maybe if I was old as you two ...
Butter paper or trash paper.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
it's the same as what used to be for typists to make copies on... also called 'flimsies"
i think butterpaper is a little heavier...
anyways .... all the "real " architects use onion skin
i don't...
&
what's this "olde" sh*t ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think he means 'broken-in' as opposed to 'broken-down'
'experienced' as opposed to 'used up'
'olde' is better than 'old'
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hardee har har. That's a real knee slapper.
Actually, I have heard of and used onion skin, but only for copies of typed work, and it was pre-cut to letter size. I have never heard of a roll of tracing paper called onion skin. Butter paper ... that's the term.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
butter paper is the yellow kind
trash is the white
bumwad is either
I have always stuck onion skin in a typewriter only ...
We always began on bumwad, worked out our designs on trace and traced them onto linen when I worked as an engineering draftsman ... one profession I forgot to mention above ^^^ ;-)
Trace was heavier than bumwad, but only a little.
another thread you might be interested in following here is titled "seeing is seeing" I think.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!