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Spring is springing, and here in the backwoods of Connecticut, that means mud season. Our 1000 ft. gravel driveway is doing its annual rut. When things dry out a bit, I need to put yet another tandem load of 3/4 quarry process down.
I’m experienced using a backhoe’s front bucket for light grading such as this, but I’m thinking that this year I might rent a skid-steer instead. I’ve only run a skid-steer with a power rake on the front; I’ve never used one for handling or grading material. I loved running that machine though, and I think the basic unit with a front scoop ought to handle my driveway. And they rent for less than backhoes. Will a skid-steer do the job?
Andy
Replies
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I had my driveway done twice, both times I watched this good driver, drive and let the load go at the same time. He laid it out about 4" thick and I spent about an hour with a rake for a 160' driveway.
*A skid steer would work fine.
*Although I own a Bobcat, for this job I would rent a small dozer. Case 550 or less. It cuts much better, compacts as it goes, and can make a much better level grade in less time especially in rutted or soft terrain. The bobcat will have a tendancy to create ruts unless you get a tracked model. If the base is solid, and you are just dressing the stone, then the bobcat is the ticket(smooth edge bucket, no teeth) and backdrag your way out the drive.
*Andy find a driver like Rons and rent the skidder, just remember to buckle up. I know a guy (me) who almost threw himself right out the front of one of those things. Buckled up in a hurry after that. Skidder rental is just for the shear joy value of running power equipment.jim
*andy ... i have our 200 ' driveway maintained about once a year... drop spot the 3/4" .... then i grade it with a 4' York rake i drag behind my Wheelhorse...a York rake would seem to be the right thing for this...4' ... or 6'... or 8'...
*400' drive @ 25 degree incline. Have seen huge difference in ability of drivers to drop and spread. Makes all the difference in need for additional work. From watching others and personal exper, a blade is better than a bucket, and a bigger machine is quicker than a smaller one. But any machine is fun, except for those little Termites--I'd rather use my daughter's pedal bike that one of those.
*1000' driveway....another tandem load of rock?? My advice ( as someone who does this for a living ) is to save your money and lay a bed of at least 6" of whatever material you usually use as a driveway base in your area. You would spread it with( preferably ) a bottom dump speader, grade with a small road grader, and compact. You should never again have a problem with your drive other than an occasional grading. In our area , this job would cost you about $3500-$4000.
*Funny this question came up this time of year.The thing is, how rough is your driveway? If it is basically ok you could just add material. If it has been rutted then you should regrade the base before adding more material. How bad the driveway is, and how poorly the material is dumped, determines the machine you use. A tractor with a bucket and a york rake sounds like just the machine for you Andy. You can grade the drive before the material arrives, you have a bucket in case there are any dropping issues, they work great for recovering any material that goes off to the sides, work fast and the learning curve is small. I can rent one around here for $125/day, plus trucking. Next machine step would be a dozer, but you can double the rent, and the learning curve is a lot steeper.By all means drop-spread it. A good driver can spread pretty well with-out chains on the gate, but chaining the gate will spread it more evenly, for whoever is driving. I just had a hundred tons or so dropped in my drive, the truck had doors in the gate and dropped two rows, I graded with my plow truck. I must say it was the slickest thing I have done in a long time.
*Andy,A man of your stature (and budget) should have himself a nice 16 to 20HP Kubota 4 WD tractor on hand. Get one with a 5' front blade and put a 6' york rake on the 3 point hitch in back. Angle the front blade slightly to center to build a crown (after your driver runs the load down the drive). The back york rake is angled the opposite direction and feathers the mix smooth. You'll find this works almost like a minature road grader. Both blades are necessary to avoid "washboarding." Drive slow.In the winter, regrade just before the freeze, then pull off the rake and install a 6' or 7' back blade (whatever the tractor can handle). When you're plowing snow, the front blade is then angled to the side, as is the back. You'll have the cleanest, smoothest drive in the county.I ran a 16 hp B7100 for 15 years with this setup. As I said, keep it on hand. Then whenever a gullywasher comes by, you can hop right out and fix things within minutes. You'll find a thousand other uses for such a tractor. Of course, you'll also need a back scoop, flail mower, and a number of other attachments to be a true "gentleman farmer."
*Andy; I have a 35n hp Deisel John Deer with a 5 foot front loader and a 5 foot grader box. It is four wheeel drive, and weights in around 3200 pounds. It is great for loose stone and even compacted dirt, however it is to light for compacted stone. Most of the skid-steers I have use weight in at 5000 pounds or better. The extra weight makes all the differenc in the world.My drive is about 250 feet long on a 15 to 20% grade. I but down a 6-8 inch layer of #3 stone 7 years ago and haven't had any problem with rutting. That might be because of the grade, but even concrete trucks haven't touched it yet. the skid-steer will work just fine, and be fun. Watch out for the kids, and buckle-up.
*The driveway is mostly sound, with 4-6 in. of 3/4 DGA. There are a couple of soft spots the I can hand shovel and fill with more DGA. The other problem area is the 90 degree turn that's on about an 8 percent grade. Although the ground is hard there, ruts develop because of wheel spin and centrifical force. Short of paving it, that area will require yearly work. In general, the driveway needs more cosmetic work than fixing car-trapping ruts. I've had great truck drivers spread stone on flat driveways. Only about half of mine is flat, the rest varies up to perhaps 13 or 14 percent. Most drivers that I've dealt with refuse to spread on that steep a slope. A small dozer in good hands would probably be the best tool. However, I have too much fun doing it myself, and I have run dozers (and loaders and hoes) in the past. I know that I'm just not practiced enough to do a decent job with these deceptively simple looking machines. My plan is to have the DGA dropped at the top of the hill and at about half way down where there's a flat spot. I figure that gravity is on my side then, and that I could do a lot with a Bobcat. Hell, I've spread a load by shovel and wheelbarrow in a day in my younger days. I bought a Farmall Cub last year, and one attachment that I need to find is a box or a belly grader. If anybody knows of one near Connecticut, I'd be interested. Until I find one though, I'm thinking Bobcat. I guess my question was really one of horsepower; are these little machines enough to do the job? Seems as if they are.Andy
*I get a lot of work done on my 350' gravel drive with a 1941 Ford 9N tractor with a 6' grader blade behind it. Once you learn how to finesse the hydraulics, the 39 horsepower of my 9N is all I need to grade in the summer and plow in the winter. I've tried this with a buddy's skid steer, and found it wholly unsatisfying, but if that's the equipment you have, back blading with the bucket was the technique I found to work the best.
*Andy, Andy, Andy,I'm truly surprised at you're lack of thought here.There is nothing more important to building a "FineHome" than than the driveway, you use it to marshal supplies when the home is being built, parking equipment, etc.,etc. Get the magazine to do a story on "Driveway Construction" for a new home, and "test" all of the equipment above, get it all, bobcat to D-9 and build what you want...do the article... let us know what works too include the fun factor and everyones happy!
*They did a nice driveway article abut a year or two ago...somebody beat him to it!Funny...I was out looking at my gravel driveway this morning. I'd venture about 800' or so. It, too, is in need of a little reconstructive surgery. I'm putting that off for about another year, though, until I'm pretty certain that no more heavy equipment will travel this way.Sadly, the gravel yard around here no longer allows the drivers to tailgate their loads anymore. Last time instead of tailgating they just dumped the stone and I had to york rake it in place.
*Ok, horsepower and lifting capacity is what you want. Bobcat brand.. a 773 has a 1750# lifting capacity and 46 horsepower, a 763 is 1500#. Rentals are mostly 773's and 763's. That is plenty more than you need for this job(but the extra capacity won't hurt) but I would opt for tracks, because tires will spin in loose gravel, especially on your grade. Tracks can be rented around here for 75.00/day installed.
*BTW, I wrote the driveway article, just didn't follow my own advice to the letter. Of course, it's a lot easier to advise others to excavate down for 6 in. of 2 1/2-in. process, and cap it with 4 in. of 3/4 in. process than to actually cough up the money to do so. The penalty is that I'll have perhaps a decades worth of excuse to rent some equipment annually. Or, I'll get the grader for the Cub. Thanks all for the advice. Andy
*Andy, Your talking to the right guy. I sell John Deere equipment. I'll be glad to bring you some stuff to "demo" Let's see, we could start with a John Deere 240 and work our way to the 270 to see which skid steer works best. Then we'll use a 310 loader-backhoe and finish up with a 450 dozer. I could also arrange a grader, but then that's really overkill for a driveway. OK we could use the blade on our mini Excavator to spread it and it might be fun to start out with the ZTS 17 and work our way through the 50 ZTS. You pay for the haulin and I'll get the equipment.
*You guys may be giggling at my 16 to 20 hp Kubota suggestion, but I'm serious, the 4 wheel drive makes all the difference. It's like a tractor twice it's size. The key for grading is that you must have that 4 way dozer blade on front and a landscape rake on the 3 point hitch in back. A 2 WD Farmall won't come close to the same effect.My Kubota worked wonders for me. There were even times that when the road commission was too "busy" (parking their trucks behind the local restaurants for hours) to do the county gravel roads, that I would go out and do the 1/4 mile up and down in front of my place. Worked just fine.Since you say it's going to be an annual affair, I say skip the rental fees and apply them towards a tool that will this job plus many others.Frenchy, You've got some smaller John Deere's with 4 WD. Find one with these attachments and let Andy try it out. The front dozer blade has to be at least 4 way hydraulic, 6 would be better. Bet you get a sell if you can give him a good price on that Farmall trade in.The best part - it's fun.
*BobCats and FWDs. You lucky guys. I got to do my 1000ft of hillside drive with an Allis Chalmers D15. Bummer.BJ
*Andy . Take Frenchys' advice go with the Deere equipment. He could trade you out of the weak little cub and into some of the finest machines made. And one more thing ,Rent? you buy more tools that is the excuse ,the drive needs fixing and the cub is too small, Frenchy has this great deal, and....... Oh I use a 7710 deere with a 740 loader to "grade" my drive , Just sit in the heated /air conditioned cab turn up the tunes and the job is done all to soon.
*Andy,when working with John Svenson recently, on a home with a 1/4 mimle gravel drive, he suggested something that seemed to make a lot of sense to prevent the massive rutting that was happening.First spread large gravel/rock then add smaller gravel/rock ocer top of this. The pieces will work themselves togehter and lock, giving you a firmer finish.Pete
*Andy, you can borrow this, but i'll eventually need it back to scrape a circle around my scrap pile for a hillbilly version of the Burning Man celebration. Luddite enough?
*Thanks, SG, but I'd need a damn horse to pull it. Last thing that I want is to be near one of those foul-tempered, carniverous money-sinks.Anybody interested in trading a Kubota for a Farmall?Andy
*Andy:I run bobcat on my days off and am therefore biased. But it think the skid steer is the way to go. Bobcat brand seems to be most user frienldy to me. Interestingly enough I do almost all of my work, including finish grading, with a tooth bucket. The teeth can be used to comb the material and then the bottom of the bucket is used to pack and grade (easier to do than explain). I have a smooth bucket and grademaster for my machine but rarely use them. If you haven't run one before there is a steep and very enjoyable learning curve. The machines are just fun. Couple of points. If you get into trouble or the machine starts to buck just let go of the controls, they self center and everything comes to a stop. The longer the wheelbase the less the bucking. The heavier the machine the more it can be used to pack things. When it is time to pack down the roadway fill the bucket with a load of crush, this will substantially increase the weight of the machine and add to the compaction. It's late and I'm insomniac, been working on my taxes. If I have any brilliant ideas later I'll post again.Luck Scott
*Wasn't it someone here that said: "When you're a hammer, all your problems look like nails". Since I'm an old farm boy, the answer to everything is to use a tractor. I've never been a big fan of loaders for levelling, but they're great if you have to move the rock. To me, a rear mounted blade would be best. The cub you have only has about 10 HP. It's O.K. for mowing, but can't push too much. It's akward to use any type of mounted implement on them since they don't have a live PTO/hydraulics. My suggeestion would be to get an older Massey Ferguson tractor. Around here, you can buy a 1950-60s vintage for $1,000 to 2,500 depending on the condition. John Deere and Kubota's cost a fortune, and aren't real tractors. (My apalogies to Dave Richeson)I'll pass along one trick my Dad taught me for blading: Go down the right side of the driveway with your blade angled so the right side is closer to the tractor. Go all the way out the driveway and back in like this. Next time you make the trip, go down the left side of the driveway with the left side of the blade closest to the tractor. This keeps a crown built up in the road, and prevents "washboarding". Do you have any neighbors with a tractor you could borrow, or trade some work for ? Might be cheaper than renting something. Also - If your driveway is steep, be careful no matter what equipment you use. Doesn't take but a second to flip something over on top of you. We definitely don't want to have to break in another editor around here................(-:
*Definitely go tractor, whether 2wd or 4wd. I've got tractors, dozers, a bobcat, and a backhoe....and I'd take the tractor with either a grader box or rake out on that call. A skid steer is great for moving material and can be used for grading, but a tractor will outgrade a skidsteer when ease is considered.John
*Ron, you're right about the Cub's HP, but it does have a PTO and live hydraulics. In fact, it's even got a manure scoop, which is one of the things that compelled me to buy it.I appreciate the warning about roll-overs on steep ground. I've run enough equipment to be scared of that. However, none of this work will be on a side slope, so I don't think there will be that sort of trouble.I have run a Bobcat once before, to rake my lawn. The front-mounted power rake did a great job, but boy, did it make the machine front heavy. Still, I found that Bobcat to be the most intuitive and manouverable machine I've ever run. I wanted to be sure that that positive experience wasn't clouding my judgement.Andy
*Bobcats are dicey run up and down steep pitches...If empty, you should go up backwards...If full bucket...then forward is possible...So backdragging would be safest uphill, but may be difficult to have enough traction to pull gravel.I have done a few drives with them and they do work well on the flats. There is a grader attachment for the front that would be perfect (you could grade downhill going forward and also would eliminate any front/back tipping.) I doubt you could rent one, but a paving contractor might have one in your area.near the stream,aj
*I found out a bobcat can be dicey in other situations as well.Many years ago,I was roading the companies' rented bobcat from one jobsite to another.After I got my bearings,I got to rolling along down a dirt road as fast as the bobcat would go.Feeling pretty good now,and enjoying the nice fast ride on a pretty day,I decided to reach for a cigarette with my right hand into my left shirt pocket.....Luckily,I didn't turn it over-after doing several abrupt spins in the road,I let go of the control with my other hand and came to a stop right at the edge of the road on the drop-off side.After I got out,walked around,had a couple of cigs,I got back in and motored the rest of the way at half speed,making sure I coordinated my hand movements.Be careful out there!jh
*See, smoking is hazardous to your health!
*I agree,don't do that anymore...So is stupidity.
*Great laugher now....Reminds me that I just recently was driving my truck...thought...jee..time to test noise sound in rear...jumped on clutch...woops..no clutch...brake instead and almost put myself through the windshield...Forgot, that I have had an automatic now for two years...How does we make such huge mistakes so very rarely!?near the stream thinking slower..and slower...for safeties sake,aj
*I have run both Bobcats and Case skid-steer loaders. In my opinion a Case skid-steer that has the bucket controls on the handles is the best. (I find it easier to control everything with my hands on the Case controls that trying to co-ordinate my feet and hands using the Bobcat.) Ditto on using the seatbelt--I tipped a skid-steer over while loading a dump truck. If I had not been wearing the seatbelt I would have been thrown from the machine.
*Seatbelts always. I had a head-on collision at 50 mph when I was 17. Dumb driver that I was, I was smart enough to be wearing my seat belt and I walked away with only a few bruises.Andy
*Andy - I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing regarding live PTO and hydraulics. A live PTO basically means that you have a 2 stage clutch. Pushing the clutch halfway in disengages the transmission. Pushing it in all the way disengages the PTO and hydraulics. I've never seen a cub with live PTO, but I'm no expert. The problem you'll face without live PTO is when you run into trouble. Say you're mowing, and need to stop suddenly. The momentum of the blades spinning is transferred through the transmission to the rear wheels, making it hard to stop. You can wind up "climbing a tree" with the tractor if you get in a pinch. This is also obviously dangerous working around ditches and such. The other problem without a live PTO is working with anything that requires hydraulics - like a blade. If you get hung up, you can't raise the blade with out stopping and taking the transmission out of gear. Check out the following story: Non-live PTO StoryI've never seen a manure scoop for a cub. Any chance of getting a picture ?
*Andy, on that curve, what about getting a couple bags of quickrete or mortar mix every once in a while and dumping them along the curve ?Seems to me that over time, with rain, the curve would eventualy become more or less 'paved'.
*I'll trade you Rufus for the farmall.No, wait. The farmall won't chase burglars and bears and cougars. (Oh my)Never mind
*i See, smoking is hazardous to your health! Also the cause of having more pairs of pants in the wash than is ordinarily neccessary.
*Andy- I just read this thread- well not the whole thread- well actually only- well hell! someone else read it to me.Why are you pounding stones into the mud? Couple of years ago I read a wonderful article on putting in driveways in FHB. I have been following the suggestions in that article religiously ever since.I still lose the base in the mud- but sometimes I see Jesus.Not true- I never see Jesus- and since taking precautions to drain off water- I never see drives sink into the mud...It was a great article.
*Didn't really want to mention the pants thing,Luka....:)jh
*Laughing out loud here,aj..can really see that happening!My dad drove a standard all of his life until his most recent pickup,which only came in automatic.We all quit riding with him for a while...He was either stomping a hole in the floor,or slamming the brakes!Think he's got it now...I'll let you know if he loses it again in two years...jh
*Splintie has the best idea, did you wonder where the mattress for that spring went? Right, you use them for the road base. Then I guess you spread tar and feathers, or something.I have another vote for a tractor, that makes two for me. Grader blade or york rake, I know I could spread and grade faster than a skid steer. But why not have someone spread it for you? By the time you rent a machine and pay for delivery you are close to what someone would charge you to do the work. Ya, I know, I don't miss many opportunities to play with new toys either...
*Andy, Come-on lets play!! I'll bring the toys you do an article!! As to you Bobcat fans, You make your own arguement for a John Deere. It's got a longer wheel base so it doesn't beat you up as much and is more stable, It's heavier so it's able to pack more, It has a better weight distribution so it's not doing wheelies as often and with 4 tires on the ground you have twice the traction as the bobcat with two tires in the air. You can get Deere in either Hand controls or Both but Deere doesn't use cables unlike Case, so the operation is precise not like a case with stretched cables. Some one suggested that you use the lawn tractor in 4 wheel drive form.. Well I only sell the construction equipment so I can't tell you how effective it is. One thing I would suggest is tracks. With tracks on you aren't rutting the ground all the time plus they don't get stuck as easy. There is a trick to putting them on. If you know how you can put them on in a suit and never lift them. It's the tricks..... Anyway Give me a call I got this nice demo I can sell you for only $18,500. only has a few hours on it.....
*$18,500 for a used unit? I got a brand new G- series 773 with the hand controls, suspension seat, low pro bucket w/teeth and a set of forks for $18,000. I bought mine for the attachments that Bobcat has for rental at the dealer I bought it from...I mean everything from the concrete pump, and concrete bucket to a full line of augers, trenchers and rakes. All the other brands said they could get those, but it may take awhile to locate and get them in....so off to Bobcat I went. I call...they drop the attachment off at the site, it doesn't get any better than that. Keith C
*Andy, whatever you end up renting, drop by my house that day too, ok ?
*Frenchy...I'm sold and will learn how to write quick....Lets do an article on Fine Tennis Courts...near the stream dreaming of my almost new John Deer,aj
*Andy,You and me both. Broke the right-front half-shaft while driving up the freeway. Made a left turn into a concrete bridge support. Even with a seat belt I still managed to bounce my head off of the windshield frame.Won't even drive across the parking lot without a seatbelt now.S
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Spring is springing, and here in the backwoods of Connecticut, that means mud season. Our 1000 ft. gravel driveway is doing its annual rut. When things dry out a bit, I need to put yet another tandem load of 3/4 quarry process down.
I'm experienced using a backhoe's front bucket for light grading such as this, but I'm thinking that this year I might rent a skid-steer instead. I've only run a skid-steer with a power rake on the front; I've never used one for handling or grading material. I loved running that machine though, and I think the basic unit with a front scoop ought to handle my driveway. And they rent for less than backhoes. Will a skid-steer do the job?
Andy