Hello,
I’m an owner builder in Central NC. Here’s my situation: I interviewed several carpenters for the framing of my home to dry-in stage. I got several prices that varied greatly. The carpenter we chose is very experienced and does good work, and his price was at the low end (he’s from out here in the county with us and all the city carpenters had the higher prices). He gave us a square foot price and we decided to wait 3 months for his availability, because we thought he was the right man for the job. There is NO signed contract.
Now, two days before he is supposed to start, he tells us that he will have to raise the price because of certain factors that he overlooked. Factors include: setting steel, lvl’s in roof system, 10′ cielings, some floor joists are 12″ o.c.. His proposed increase is more that 20% over his original price (coming close now to one of the better city carpenters, who was able to start in November 04). I did expect some price increases if I changed my mind on certain things (i.e. change order’ish)…, but not a price change like this.
Well I don’t want to begrudge a man from earning a living, and I don’t want him to regret taking the job, but this increase seems a bit unreasonable, given the fact that he had engineered copies of the plans for over a month (he knew the steel was there, 10′ ceilings, …).
The question is: Are there any suggestions as to how to handle the situation?
I left a message with the city carpenter to see what his availability is.
Thanks,
Roger <><
Replies
PS. I have about 1/2 of the lumber for the house has been sitting on the ground for a week and a half ready to go; lumber company has already sent a bill.
It's hard to say, sometimes contractors do bid jobs, miss things, and have to go back for more money. The good thing is he has done this before he started work. Although I don't see where joists 12" oc would increase costs that much. I hope you didn't give him the other prices after the original bids were in.To get the job done, after waiting three months and buying material, go ahead but put everything in writing from here on in. Try to lessen your anxiety.As a general contractor there are whole lists of things I would do if I was in that situation but you are an inexperience home owner swimming with the sharks so I am trying to be as practical as possible. One thing you might want to do before you talk to this guy is quickly call the other contractors and see when they can start for their price.
Roger,
You need to get your house framed so you can get the trades in and get your CO. That's your goal.
I just deleted a verbose post that focused on the wrong issues. The issue is to get the job done at a reasonable price with a workable schedule. Whether you go with the city guy or the country guy, I would get a good contract that spells out exactly what you expect.
Remember that you are a one shot deal. Your framers will not be as motivated to please you as they might be a builder who frames 8 houses a year. I would pick the guy who you think will give you a fair shake.
Jon Blakemore
Roger,
You did not mention what his square footage price was. I frame in Denver and tracts go from $2.50 to $3.50 a square foot. Needless to say all tract framing is done by mexican crews. I frame customs where the price is around $5.50 to $6.50. It does not apply to your area but you could find out prices by driving by a subdivision to see what they are getting. It seems to me that he gave you a lowball to get the job and is trying to stick it to you now that you are prepared to start. I think it boils down to how you feel about him, if you trust him at this point and want to get started use him. If you have reservations put a tarp over the lumber and talk to some other framers, and by the way make sure he has liability insurance and workmens comp on his employees. If he doesn't as owner/builder you will be liable. Good luck
"The carpenter we chose is very experienced and does good work, and his price was at the low end (he's from out here in the county with us and all the city carpenters had the higher prices). He gave us a square foot price and we decided to wait 3 months for his availability, because we thought he was the right man for the job. There is NO signed contract."
Roger,
First of all, you mention that this guy does good work, and his prices were at the low end of the other bidders, and you decided to wait for him. (so he's busy...and that says something right there) He quoted you a Sq. ft price...but you have no signed contract.
Getting close to the start date...he's studying the plans with a critical eye so he can get in there and build your project with speed and accuracy. Notices some details he may have missed in the original look-see. Decides he has to call out some additional costs. Which might even happen with a signed contract...after the fact.
Your decision seems simple to me, accept the extra charges...or start over with someone else. Should have gotten it in writing from the get-go. A clearly written, signed contract is worth it's weight! But also, if he came to you with a problem he hadn't foreseen with the original price, would you not be willing to make a price adjustment? I hope you would. We aren't all 'Know all see all' perfect here in the trades! Just trying to make an honest living doing what we know best. My 2 cents.
Good luck to you with your project.
Dez
If you cut him a deal here, not saying neccessarily give him all that money but look at the other bids, come up with a fair price. Sometimes these mistakes happen. He's technically obligated to his price, but sometimes being stupid is punishment enough. I would say if he does good work, and you don't have to baby sit him he's making your life easier, I would try to keep him happy. In the future I wouldn't go with someone that is substantially lower, It's usually a good indicator of his actualy knowledge of the job. Framing is too important to be cheap with, a bad framer can make your entire experience miserable as all the trades after him will have problems not to mention he's probably nowhere near his deadline.
Good framers do their homework before the price is given, not afterwards.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Good framers do their homework before the price is given, not afterwards.
I like what hammer says.
I'm wouldn't say this guy is shady but go with your gut. A person can make mistakes (we all have) but such an oversight at this stage doesn't sit well. If you feel things aren't on the up and up move on. Trust your instincts-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Have you seen my baseball?"
Hi Roger
Did the framer actually see the prints before commiting to a price? Those "little" items that he overlooked are in my opinion the first things that a framer bidding on a job usually sees. Sounds a little amatuerish. My 2 cents worth
Mark
Thanks all for your input. All good advice!
I did provide prints when he first came to visit with us and look at the job. Then about a month ago we had a meeting where we reviewed the plans page by page and agreed verbally to the square footage calculation and price (adjusted up for two extra seta of stairs and 3 dormers; I pay for the crane twice to set the steel).
I'm also willing to work with him by moving lumber around with my Kubota tractor with forks, so this should save him some time and effort.
He is providing me an adjusted price today. I'll negotiate this with him given he had all the deatils, we waited for him, ... . He is a very local guy, grew up around here and used to hunt 'coons in the hollers on this property, so since his personal reputation is at stake, I'm sure he at least isn't thinking to rake me over the coals.
Thanks again,
Roger <><
Wow! I don't get it!
You are saying the guy met with you twice, with prints being on hand and reviewed each time, with a price gotten at meeting #1, and confirmed at meeting #2?
Furthermore, you are paying for crane hoisting?
And now, at job time, he wants more money because of something he "missed?"
This guy may be a good framer, but he sure is a lousy businessman. And so are you, for not sewing it up right after meeting #2.
I'll bet if we dig real deep into the details here, we'll find that this guy never really enters into written contracts for doing his framing jobs, and that job-time "extras" is his middle name.
He's got you over a barrel. Tell him so and then tell him to do the job and then determine if the increase in cost is warranted. You might catch a break
roger.... tough situation.... but you're in the cat bird's seat... no one else can evaluate the trustworthiness of this guy better than you..
as was pointed out.. he may be a great framer... he may be as honest as the day is long... and he may be the best guy for the job...
too bad he screwed the pooch with his " oh, by the ways".....
it always pi*sed me off when i would lose jobs to the "oops" guys.. then find out later they got paid for the "oops"....
sure helped in the long run to know my numbers were always better than theirsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
but you're in the cat bird's seat>>>>>Michael
Now thats a new one on me....cat bird's seat???And here I always thought it was Bird's are cats feed....go figer
####The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
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He is a very local guy, grew up around here and used to hunt 'coons in the hollers on this property, so since his personal reputation is at stake, I'm sure he at least isn't thinking to rake me over the coals.
His reputation is already set, no matter how your job turns out. He has known everyone there his whole life. If there is a problem with you (the homeowner/GC) then all the locals that know him are going to think one of two things:
1. They already know him, and know he is not to be trusted
or...
2 They already know his good reputation (if he does indeed have one), and YOU must be the problem
I have lived with these "good old boys" my whole life. In my opinion, he sees that you are in a bind, and knows what you went through to find a framer. He knows you waited for him and his time frame, so now you don't have a lot of choice.
If he can't give you a very good reason why he increased his price, go with someone else. Trust is everything. If you don't trust him at this point, you never will. You will always regret going with him (in the back of your mind) if you keep him and have problems.
Just my humble opinion...James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Right on- That was my exact sentiments.
Your project, your money, your control.
Lead or be led
Edited 2/7/2005 4:08 pm ET by Clay
Hello again, James, et.al.,
Well the local framer was supposed to start today; steel was going to be delivered and set tomorrow morning. The long and short of it is that my wife and I prayed about the situation and decided to call off the work; I didn't like doing it, but I also didn't like the idea of being "held over a barrel". The main issue for me deciding to call it off is that of integrity, not price. The 11th hour change in price represented to me a lack of integrity. It will wind up costing me more, but money isn't everything.
I'm now back to the drawing board looking for a framer; called back a couple of the "city" guys to see if we can work out a fixed price and get it in writing and signed by both parties. They seem to be quite willing to work with me, but have a 6-8 week backlog. I can cover the cost of the wood that has already been delivered, so I just need to keep it dry until then.
I forgot to say earlier that the local framer didn't have workmens compensation insurance and I was going to have him and his workers sign a waiver of liability. I'm thinking that this was a bad idea anyway, because of the risk to me. The city guys have the proper insurance, which explains quite a bit of the price difference.
Thanks all for your concern and good advice; it helped A LOT!
Take care,
Roger <><
I had that problem with a block mason. He quote a price then laid half the house and told me a price increase. I told him to finish house at orignal price and if the quality and time finish was acceptable, I pay the rest. His work was top notch, finish ahead of schedule. I was happy to pay the extra.
Excellent news Roger. Now at least, you have some peace of mind about it all.
By the way, I like your fish. James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
It's always nice to hire locals - keeps the money in the community. However, it is also nice to have plans and price agreements respected. Someone already asked this, but I don't recall the answer. With the increase, how does his price compare with the other original bids? If his price is NOW competitive with the city subs, he is not a good "deal" because he is not offering proper insuance coverage. You have made the right decision.In the future, get What is to be provided, Within a particular time frame, and at What cost, in writing. Sure, a handshake is a great way of doing business - but not with a first timer and when you have no intention of continuing the business relationship. This is one of the biggest investments you will ever make. Protect it.BTW - A written agreements also serves as a to-do document. If there is any disaggreement in what needs to be done, it is there to refer to by both parties without bias.Live and learn,F
Roger, you made a professional decision, good for you.
Roger,
I am O/B as well and I think this emphasizes the need for a written contract and specs. Other than concrete or materials, your framing sub will be one of the biggest single costs in building your house, and possibly the most complex. Having a well written contract as well as specs will help minimize problems like this. I have had several disagreements with my framer over quality issues, i.e. how square is square, how close to specified dimensions he had to be etc. Now you shouldn't need a contract to get quality, but it does help CYA and lets your sub know up front what you expect from them as well as what they expect from you.
One thing that would concern me is that if he missed stuff like ceiling height, what else will he miss when actually building your house.
If you do use this crew, since he was less than thorough in bidding the first time, I would get everything regarding the job in writing.
Regards,
Dennis