Boss Hog was talking about the lousy quality of blueprints he recieves. We’ve all seen plans that leave out critical information – even architects are human too. And unschooled designers like myself haven’t had the class where they teach you the checklist of what should be included.
So let’s put the mastermind to work here. What information is critical that you sometimes find missing. Even throw in your dimensioning preferences. eg I dimension from framing to framing – some guys like the frame measure from outside of exterior wall to center of partition walls.
So Boss, What do you want to see to design and bid trusses when you unroll your copy…other than a twenty dollar bill.
Excellence is its own reward!
Replies
I do remodeling/restoration/addition and when I work from somebody elses plans, I always have a conversation with them about what dimensions have highest priority. In old houses something will always be out of plumb or unsquare so I have to decide what to scarifice when push comes to shove (I'm thinking andybuildz and his 322YO leaner here) Should I keep those windows lined up vertically from floor to floor or should I make that hallway an inch or two narrower or should I place this window out of center in the wall or should I compromise it all. Bathroom over there needs definite five feet for that tub so no ssacrifice there....
The biggest pita for me( carpenter), on these higher end jobs, when you start framing, and you try to leave room for recessed lights, plumbing , and hvac. I f you have to shove something, make sure it's in a secondary room. Chases, put 'em in closets, a lot a times you gotta read between the lines.# # # # # # # , # # #--# # # # !
Yeah! Can lights.
Maybe we can call'em "shotgun lights" so we can install them with a shotgun.
I never saw a residential plan with indications of mechanical routes. Govt and commercial yes. res no! Couple more layers coming!Excellence is its own reward!
I would like to see the words "Or suitable substitute" even "Or suitable substitute if pre-approved by architect" added to the list of molding profiles taken from 10 different catalogs of architectural millwork shops spanning 3 states.
Clampman
What is needed? everything it takes to build a house, evrything. What is not needed, color of wall paper. Plot everything in AUTOCAD so it can be change easyier. hand drawning are a waste of time and money in today society
The CAD program won't think for you though. It may alert that the header is undersized but it won't decide if the window needs to be e-coated or have solid muntins and whether those decisions apply to every window or just the ones in the living room.
The wasted stairs wouldn't make me laugh. I hate waste, even if somebody else pays for it. Boss has those piles of misorderd trusses. Think of the amt of waste that could be saved if designers were thorough.
Here's another thing - with CAD it is easy to generate a three D drawing. I started doing this for customers who are three dimensionally challenged (aren't they all?) Then I found that views rendered were a great sales tool. Now, I'm thinking that a 3-D view of any tricky details could save a lot of phone calls or verbal explanations. Excellence is its own reward!
I to hate wasting things and my time.He asked me to haul it off so his partner wouldn't chew him out and it sat at my house for about ayear before I got the bright idea to incorporate into swingset playground fort sandbox conglomerate that has grown out of control in my backyard.
ANDYSZ2
I've got an exterior set that works pretty good as a way to stack my staging planks up off the ground.
Anyway, the whole thing of scaled, dimensioned section drawings is worthwhile in communicating designs. I've seen several times where the architect couldn't understand where all his assumed headroom went. He's talking about ten foot ceilings but he lost six inches when he speced the floor trusses to eliminate a beam, etc......
I don't mean for this to end up being a designer bashing thread tho'
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 9/24/2002 11:56:26 PM ET by piffin
I'd like details plainly spelled out .........bid a big project last summer- 2" thick spec book, 30+ sheets of plans. No profiles shown for the window trim, sprinkler system specified didn't meet code, a membrane was spec'd for under the floor tile, wasn't clearly shown ........... ommisions like that can be costly, if not fatal to the contractor. Another project had the architectect's stamp ............ prints had the sewage flowing uphill ........... no pumps were shown or indicated ......last I knew gravity still applied. Nailing down the details and a little proofreading wouldn't hurt.
My lead carpenter looked at set of plans and told me he couldnt make the roof work in his head so after we started on the roof we really coudnt make it work.Called the builder he told me that he had built this house before and it worked so we called his expert and the architect and we all pulled strings for a couple of hours before they admitted it wasn't going to work so I ended up tearing down half of the roof and redesigning it the builder made the architect pay for the extra time and materials I and have to give credit to my LC he saw what they couldnt before we put up the first stick.
ANDYSZ2
Flashing details!
I have seen to many framers, roofers and siding guys that don't know how to properly flash windows, doors,chinneys, roof projections, etc.. I always here... that is they way I was tought to do it, or have always done it, and never had a problem.... Dumb luck always seem to run out on the jobs I am responsble for.
A lot of my work experience is in the commercial arena, where details are not left to the craftsman in the field. I am amazed at how many guys working in the trades never read a thing about thier trade or how thier trade fits with other trades in the total building package. Each may know the code for thier part of the work, but don't know or consider what they may be doing to the other guys effort to stay in compliance whith his code section. Designers and builders are suppose to be the coordinators and mediators on these issues, but all to aften don't know these details themselves.
A notes page on a set of prints that says " per local code..." is totally useless. Reference the local code section, or referance a drawing detai sheet . Don't make the guy doing the work "wing it" or "make it up as they go along".
Dave
My Cad program won't let me make mistakles on dimensions printed but I often see plans from the drawing board with something like this: There is a change madde and the drafts man moves the lines for the wall or places a new window, but forgets to change the written dimension or the window schedule in the side column. Or maybe he changes the roof from 6/12 to 8/12 at the owners request so he changes either the roof line on elevations or the identifier note without changing the line drawing so the two are not in agreement.
So what I'd like to see is better proofreading before prints go out.Excellence is its own reward!
I would like to know the name of the person who drew the plans along with a number to call and a promise to return your call as fast as possible.
ANDYSZ2
Amen Andy...I`ve got a request/question that requires 30 seconds of confirmation, yet it takes several days to receive a response. I hate being held up because the architect can`t return a call before I`ve attempted three!
As far as dimensions shown on plans:
Consider finish casings when specking mulled window units. I cant make a 5 1/2" moulding look anything but fudged if units arent spaced properly ahead of time.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Same with 4.5" door casings if the door is only two inches from the inside corner.
Finished floor material thikness is good to know when you build the stairs.
Excellence is its own reward!
I have a whole playground staircase because my builder changed his mind on the flooring and forgot to tell me so icut the whole staircase out and built a new one every time i watch the kids playing on those steps I have to laugh.
ANDYSZ2
Piffin,
That's one of my personal pet peeves. I recently did a job where almost half of the door casings had to be scribed to the wall. It was a door (jamb and all) removal and replace job. Of course, they replaced the 2-1/4" casing with 3-1/2". I thought it looked terrible. Not only was it much more time consuming but I don't know of any way to make a piece of casing look right when you have to rip 3/4" off.
I'm done ranting now.Jon Blakemore
Your cad program can allow errors. Just reviewed a set of drawings that were done by a young guy in our office. He set his dimension tolerance to 1/8". 20 offices in a row and when you added up the dimension string the building needed to be 3" bigger. I draw using a 1/32" tolerance but dimension to an 1/8" and check to make sure that the overall dimension matches the string of dimensions.
In remodeling work I had a carpenter tell me he would rather have notes about aligning walls, ceiling, soffits, trim etc. than have hard dimensions. Do all of you agree?
I also dimension to face of stud using actual stud sizes (3 5/8" for metal studs) and was told that this was unusual but appreciated.
My only complaint is when I show details and they are not followed. I get a lot of "this is how I always do it". Over the years I have added more flashing, trim, door , window, and framing details (culled from FHB, JCL and others) and get more "this is how I always do it". Just had one the other day with a shower pan. "I never slope the pan to the drain and I've been doing this for 10 years".
Yes, I definitely agree about the alignment having precedence over hard dimensions. That was my earlier point about priorities of layout items.
I was aware of dimension tolerances and the potential cumulative errors. I guess I was thinking more about the job where an eleven foot window was speced to go into a ten foot wide room. It is also true that some CADs don't use associative dimensioning so you can move a wall and the taxt might still read the old dimension number just like with careless pencil jockeys and erasure wrestlers.
Had to laugh at your last observation/petpeeve of life from the other side. "I've always done it this way"
BTW, what program do you use? I'm sure you've said before...
.Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 9/27/2002 8:35:29 PM ET by piffin
I am the sole designer in a lumber yard. After reading all of these comments, I feel like I need to get a new job, working for myself, where I can do everything that is listed here. I draw anywhere from 125-200 plans a year, getting some help from a few sub-contracting designers in my area. I WISH I could put all of this information a every set of plans I create, but time restraints, work load, and egos of the contractors I design for, and their salesmen/estimators I work with in the yard prevent me from doing all this.
I draw with Softplan v.11, and can't find the time to use most of the features it has to help me with the drawings. I do not do any mechanical drawing, because the inspection offices in my area will not even look at them. The drawing need to be "drawn by the licensed individuals performing the work." It is a waste of my time, and the clients money to even try to do them any more.
I also wish I could detail everything out on the plans, but again...TIME. My bosses call it "assumed construction". We are to assume that the builders know how to build a house, and we should not need to hold his/her hand, and detail every corner, truss connection, etc. Is this the right way to do this? Hell no. But because of local competition, time, money, and the fact that almost every builder thinks they are our top builder (and if I don't do their plans RIGHT NOW, they will go somewhere else... usually empty threats), I have to make the best with what I have.
And yes, the name of my company, my full name, and our address and phone number is on every set of plans that leaves the yard.
I really wish I only had a couple dozen plans or so to do every year, but I know I probably wouldn't have my job if that were the case. After having the same work load for the past 12 years, I don't think it is ever going to change. I am just getting real burned out, even though I love what I do.
Sorry for the long post, and the venting.
Go ahead and vent. You desrve it! That is a ridiculous workload. I use SP11 too and for the record, I think you've got a great program helping you. (I assume you use Softlist too)
I can't imagine doing more thamn fifty plans a year without much complex stuff thrown in and I could easily make between fifty and seventy grand doing it if there were that much in my immediate area. You are hitting it hard.
We can assume the reason the yard is providing this service is to sell the lumber package. They probably don't sell the wiring or HVAC so there is absolutely no reason for them to pay you extra to work on something they will see no return on from a business standpoint. from an ethical view, the builders/customers should know, even if in the fine print, that you aren't responsible for the whole package and that certain systems are not considered in the design, IMO. That's a way of saying, these plans are worth what you are paying for them.
I don't say that to belittle you. It's the system you are linked into. It may very well be that you could do better if you have creative ideas and can communicate with people by going out on your own. You've got a sloid background in the technical side. I bet you could benefit plenty from a little time off too like Boss Hog, you are doing someone elses work for free and getting too little recognition for it.
The economic impact is a deciding factor in every design decision in every work station, not just the mass production places like yours. I was doing a site visit with an archy (head honcho type from a NYC office) two weeks ago who expressed her frustration with getting her junior associates to realize that time cannot be wasted. There comes a time to decide and go with it, was her take on the story. 2500 and counting...
It's possible to have quality AND quantity!
Excellence is its own reward!
That is really a tremendous work load. You shouldn't worry too much about leaving out information from the plans. The builder is getting what he pays for. Without the designer and the customer spending a lot of time talking about the electrical details and the mechanicals, these plans are often a waste of everybody's time. The people doing the work will end up talking with the builder and homeowner directly and giving them what they want as they walk around the building. Most of the job is routine and the difficult parts are usually the things that end up getting changed.
There have been a number of comments about builders who insist on details that are "the way we always do it." Sometimes this is just pigheadedness or shoddy work, but often it is part of a routine that the builder and his crew are comfortable with, efficient at producing and that is a perfectly acceptable way of doing the job. In this case it may be the best way to do the job and will have the lowest cost. Sometimes these details appear after we have given the customer a price on the project and either raise the price or cut into our profits, neither a good thing.
It is great when an architect can teach us how to build a better building. This is what a good detail can do but there is a cost associated with this and the customer should be able to pay for this.
Still using an old DOS program called generic cadd. Have Autocad and keep upgrading but I hate to use it since is is so much slower and the file sizes are twice the size of a generic cadd drawing. I will have change over very soon since autocad no longer supports r12 which is the format that generic cadd can convert.
I had it but never re-loaded generic cad after my system crash and reformat last summer. Got the floppies in the drawer still. It was a trick getting a driver to link with the printer too for it..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I know I'm stepping into this conversation late, I haven't read all the posts but do you do all your own framing?
Or do you sub out the framing?
As a framing contractor, befor I even bid the job, House or Addition, I pick apart the whole plan first, just to see if it's going to work, especially with the "Roof Lines," Stairwells, Plumbing, HVAC............ people say to me what do you care about plumbing, your the Framing contractor.
If I were to frame an addition for you I would want to talk to your plumber if I coudn't figure something out.
I as a framer in my eyes have to know alot about plumbing, so I can keep away from waste lines, tub drains.......
Alot of times I'll build a plumbing box for them.
If I see something that is not going to work such as the rafters or load bearing walls, I'll call the architect myself and discuss it.
Why bid a job when you know something isn't going to work.
For me as a framer I don't frame something first and then realize the rafters are'nt going to work and then blame the architect and say "well I just followed the plan,and now it's going to be an extra to fix it."
If being a framer for 19 years, I can't pick out a mistake when looking at a set of plans, then I better find something else to do.
I was talking to a Builder once and he told me that the Architect screwd the roof lines up and his framer had to riop it apart 3 times.
I told him you better get a new framer because if he was any good he should have picked it up befor he framed it once.
Joe Caola
I am a remodeler but have done enough framing and roofing to see that for the most part. I use subs now for bigger jobs. This thread is to help folks (myself included) what should be specified up front. You are right about talking to the archy before bidding. You may have nmissed it but the inspiration for this thread was the frustration that Boss has had in building trusses for inadequately drawn plans.
As my career turns to doing more design work, I want to be able to do a good job instead of just drawing for guys that are used to reading my mind. I'm sure I would enjoy working with you. Experiemnce plus communication yields a better job for everyone. It's when egos get in the way that the job suffers..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Are you a design built company?
I don't know if you read my post to Boss above but I'm sure you've been in the same situations as I have in my examples.
A perfect example for a guy like yourself if your going to draw plans for your own jobs would be work hand in hand with a guy like Boss. If you were to use trusses you could design and layout the addition or house and Boss could tell you if it's going to work or not.
Alot of problems that plans don't show are with the HVAC guys. I'll even call them in first befor I continue my framing. I can't tell you how many meetings I've had with them and Plumbers.
I've dropped ceilings down so that the trunk line is not running through the middle of a bedroom. Frame walls out on 3rd floor finished attacks for furnaces that no one thought about.
I framed a house last year 4000sf the whole second floor was cathedral, structural beams, no collar ties. I told the GC from day one that the house was probably going to have a least 3 or 4 zones for the HVAC and they were definetly going to have to put a furnace on the second floor.
This house was'nt designed the right way funaces trunk lines. He said no problem.
They wound up putting collar ties in so they could run all the trunk lines.
The owner was an interior decorator and was putting old beams in maybe half way up the rafters just for looks, now he has a dropped ceiling an old beams.
I'm surpised Architects don't work with the truss companys so you don't have these problems.
I'm meeting with one on Thursday I'll see what he says.
Let me know what you think.
Joe Carola
I was smiling while reading your post. You've just repeated and condensed what has been said the long way around in the previous posts here.
You'll enjoy reading the whole thread.
I believe we're going to enjoy having you around here at Breaktime. You have experience and integrity, not to mention the fact that you write well. Andy may have you writing for the magazine someday. If you are interested, here's his E-mail:
[email protected].
Excellence is its own reward!
>I'm surpised Architects don't work with the truss companys so you don't have these problems.
So what do y'all do about the chicken and egg issue?
In broad terms, what if the design is happening before the HO has selected ANY contractors, including GC? You don't have any of the builders to speak with and you don't know which truss co, for example, they'll choose to work with. You're happy to consult with any of their chosen professionals, and even mention so in the contract, but there are none. And, in fact, they won't choose contractors until there are full plans from which to get bids.
I love working with the HVAC contractor and structural engineer ahead of time, but it's been a bitch to get people to make that choice until the plans are nearly complete--at the earliest.
Cluod Hidden,
I've only used trusses on little sqare box town house and a few add- a-levels. Nothing real complicated.
Assuming that the architects no what there doing or have them engineered.
Some architects work with structural engineers on plans or at least the ones I've seen.
I'll give you an example:
When I started framing this job six months we had to use TJI'S for rafters so I didn't question it until I started getting closer to the roof and realizing that the architect drew the rafters as if we were framing with 2x10 or 2x12 rafters.
The roof was about 35' x 44' 6.5/12 pitch gable six dormers 12/12 pitch all cathedral ceilngs, no structural ridge, just these big 4x10 old beams the home owner got from a old barn. They were supposed to act as structural collar ties. Six of them divided, nailed into the TJI'S.
It just didn't seem right to me. How can you nail a 4x10 beams to TJI rafters. So I called the TJI manufacture and told them what the architects plans were and he thought that I was joking.
He said that you can't use TJI'S for that particular situation that we would have to go back to framing it with 2x10 or 2x12. So I called the architect up and he talked to them and he revised the plans.
Another example:
The architect for my friends house that I just framed gave him the finished set of plans for a two story 6500sf colonial 35' to the top of the ridge.
We find out the town that code is 32' "OOPS"
We had to cut the roof down three feet.
We had to keep the 8/12 pitch, so we had to build a 10' x 28' platform. Bring all the hips and valleys into the corners.
But what was going to hold up this big platform?
Mr architect had no clue. So the construction manager called in a structural engineer in and redrew the plans.
This was all done befor we even started.
Joe Carola
"I'm surpised Architects don't work with the truss companys so you don't have these problems."
Actually, some do just that. I wish more would.
I look at it kinda like this: If I can help head off problems down the road, I'll do so. It's much better to get the bugs worked out in the planning stages. I have never charged an architect for that service. Don't know that I've ever heard of a truss company that does.
Cloud, I don't really care about the "chicken and egg" issue. I'll help an architect out regardless. I know I won't get every order. But I figure other truss companies are doing the same thing for other architect on jobs I'll end up getting.
There's a guy in my area that draws prints but refuses help. Guess he looks at it as a sign of weakness or something. I've offerred repeatedly to help so he doesn't get into stuff that doesn't work, but he has refused every time but once. And that one time he didn't believe what I told him anyway. (He didn't see why trusses with sloped bottom chords are more expensive than trusses with flat bottom chords)
Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first.
Ron, maybe the "esotericness" of the structures I design make my question trickier.....the only trusses that might be used in a dome are floor trusses, so your profession isn't where I typically see the issue. But I'll pose the question this way. I have designs going all over the country (implying diversity of location rather than large quantities). One in CO, one in HI, one in GA, etc. I'm finding it impractical to identify the specialty contractors (HVAC, etc) to review plans with when the HO has not yet made choices. So I have to make best guesses--RFH, standard electrical, plumbing walls--and then either redo the plans when their eventual contractor talks them into something different--forced air, computer controlled lighting, different location of main stack--or have them make site adjustments to the plans. If I have to redo the plans, that costs either me or the HO. If I tried to "force" the HO to make choices of contractors up front, they'd legitimately point out that most of the time they cannot be/c the contractor needs plans to make a bid.
It's not yet caused trouble. I just pose it as a practical example of why a designer sometimes can't work hand-in-hand with others, even if he really, really wants to.
Guess your situation *IS* a bit different. Most everything I get is local.
The typical question I get goes something like this: "Can you build a 40' truss with a 9/12 roof and a 7/12 ceiling that doesn't have horizontal thrust at the outside walls?
(The answer is NO, just FYI)
If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't it follow that electrician can be delighted and musicians denoted?
How about a 12/12 pitch on a thirty foot truss with a 7/12 cathedral ceiling that has a ridge no more than seven feet above the top plate so it doesn't impede my view from the bedroom window?
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
I get that kinda stuff all the time.
My favorite are the guys who always want to add a lean-to on the side of their machine sheds. They want to add 30', and want a 4/12 pitch on the roof, but the truss can't be more than 2' tall at the high end so they don't lose headroom.
Then there's always the folks who have a 6/12 roof, but want a tray ceiling. They want to come in 2' from the wall, then shoot straight up 18". (Or something like that)
Remember in your thread about what should be included in blueprints, the first thing I said was: "The print has to be POSSIBLE" (More or less)
If mothers in the West feed their babies with tiny spoons and forks, what do mothers in the Orient use? Toothpicks?
It's hard to stay humble, knowing that we're in the three percent of the population who can visualize 3D mentally.
Now if I could just visualize money as easily.....
Excellence is its own reward!
Just curious - Where did that 3% figure come from?
Let's let the anti-gun people fight the next war.
You or the HO could pay to have a gc or a sub review your design for its practicality as relates to their special area. This would add something to the cost of the design and might not be as good as having the people who will actually do the work do the reviewing but it could give you valuable information even if it is only an objective second pair of eyes to look at your work.
I have offered to do this for architects that I know, especially in the area of budgeting, but I have yet to have one of them take me up on it. My rates would compare favorably with theirs.
>This would add something to the cost of the design and might not be as good as having the people who will actually do the work do the reviewing
Understood, but both of these are strikes. The options are presented to the HO's but it's dicey to try to force their hand. For example, I have an HVAC contractor who's actually built one of these domes and understands the unique efficiencies they offer--the rare contractor with solid dome experience. We've worked up an arrangement where people can have his HVAC design services at no extra cost, and I still only have about half the clients commit to using him or ANY OTHER HVAC dude before I've started the construction drawings. So I either have to impose on him to work up a proposal for the system and then maybe not get the contract, or leave sufficient space for generic equip. I can't make them choose him or anyone else. I can discuss and cajole, but it doesn't always work.
But I also can't fit his 50/h or whatever design fee into my prices, and I can't raise my prices for this service, be/c people aren't seeing it as a differentiated service. That's a shame, but it's what I'm seeing. If I say my fees cover all the 3D renderings, solar animations, and movies that no one else is offering, people understand that, are excited about it, and are willing to buy that. But if I say we'll include the HVAC system design (or any other similar component), I get an, "Uhhhh, ok," and a blank stare. This is one case where it's easier to sell the sizzle than the steak.
Thus far, the easiest for me is to just work with whatever contractor they select whenever they select 'em, and come across as particularly cooperative by modifying plans to suit. With experience, I've hopefully provided sufficient space for equipment and sufficient wall depth for everything, and there are no big changes.
A couple of years ago we bid and won a job that the architect had contacted a truss company to put together a truss package for the bidders. The trusses included floor trusses and a complicated hip roof with huge overhangs (up to 11 ft.) and a large living space in the second floor under the roof. In order to carry the trusses about $10000 of structural steel was necessary. I am sure that the designer had to spend quite a bit of time figuring this all out. We got a price from him for the bid but nothing else.
After we had the job we decided that it made more sense (and cost a lot less) to stick frame the roof. We asked the truss company to provide the floor trusses. The owner of the company refused to do this, saying that we were not capable of installing the trusses so that they would support the roof. Since we had eliminated all the point loads with our design and the roof load was all on the exterior walls, we couldn't understand his concern. He was unwilling to discuss it with us. We ordered the floor trusses from another company and the final house was very satisfactory. My guess is that the company that did the design for the bid was upset at having done all the design work and then not getting the complete job. It seemed awfully shortsighted to me but what do I know? Is this common? Were we screwing the guy?
Schell -
I've been in that very situation more than once. Floor trusses and stick framed roof can be a bad combo.
One of the things that makes me paranoid in a situation like that is some bad experiences. The worst one that comes to mind was a few years back. A single woman sunk everything she had into building a house. The builder used floor trusses, but stick framed the roof. Trouble is, he also used several interior partitions as load bearing walls, thinking that the floor trusses would hold up O.K.
I heard that when they installed the kitchen cabinets, they had to shim them as much as 2" to get them level - That's how bad the floor had sagged by that time. Eventually the woman became suspicious and hired an engineer to review the house. He said it was damaged beyond repair and recommended bulldozing it.
The wonan hired a lawyer and sued the builder - Only to find out he had no insurance, and didn't own anything but a pickup truck. The HO was basically bankrupt.
Now I'm not saying you're a crook like that guy was, but stuff like that makes truss companies paranoid. When other situations come up like this, I've gone along with doing floor trusses only as long as an architect or engineer designed the roof framing system that didn't place any roof loads on the floor. I'm not clear from your description if that was the case here or not.
Based on your description, I wouldn't say you "screwed" the truss company. Hard to say what they were thinking without knowing more details.
My only point of contention would be to agree that stick framing a roof could be a LOT cheaper, as you said. I've never seen a roof where I thought that was the case. (But that wasn't really your question, obviously)
I'm not saying I live too close to the airport. But last night I was walking from the living room to the kitchen, and a stewardess told me to sit down.
The truss package, roof and floor, was $23,000. We bought the floor trusses for $6000. In addition the trusses required $7000 of structural steel. We used $6000 worth of tji's and wood and it took 2 guys 3 weeks to frame the roof, about $9000. Our roof was about $15000 and the trusses would have been $24000 plus the cost of installation. Maybe another company could have given us a better price but this was too complex a roof to shop around.
As regards the bearing walls, the truss company did not include the engineering for the structural steel that would have been needed for their design, yet they were perfectly willing to sell me their trusses without knowing that design. My design did not use any interior bearing walls which was one of its main advantages. I realize that this is not a typical advantage of stick framing but it was in this case.
After reading this last post, I kinda wonder if what they gave you was actually a quote, or just a wild guess. (Your numbers don't make sense, BTW)
I've sometimes given out some wild guesses on stuff when we didn't have the time or inclination to give out a firm bid on something. They might possibly have done that, and not told you or not admitted it.
It's also possible that they didn't really want the job and priced it sky high for that reason. Hard to say without really being involved.
I don't doubt that they didn't do any engineering in order to complete the bid. Difficult houses can sometimes take a week or more for one guy to do all the engineering on. It just isn't practical to do it on every quote.
I'm not completely worthless. I can be used as a bad example.
Boss Hog,
Do you get many plans for custom homes or additions that call for different pitched roofs, hips and valleys and the plans call for the same overhang, fascia and soffit lines?
If so how do you handle it with plate height differences?
Or do you keep all the plate heights the same and give them different overhangs with the same fascia and soffit lines.
Joe Carola
Joe -
We get different roof slopes one the same house every day - I've seen as many as 5 different pitches on one house.
I would say about 99% of the time we align the fascia by changing the heel heights on the trusses. Occasionally we have someone who wants to have differrent overhang lengths to align them, but that's fairly rare.
I was going 70 miles an hour and got stopped by a cop who said, "Do you know the speed limit is 55 miles per hour?"" ""Yes, officer, but I wasn't going to be out that long..."
Even if my numbers don't make perfect sense (I don't have everything strung together properly and this is off the top of my head from at least three years ago.), they are accurate enough to convey the price difference. I am pretty sure that the truss company did in fact design the trusses. The head guy told me that he had spent about $3000 on the design and that the roof involved more than 120 different trusses. I don't know if he was bs-ing me but I do know that he thought that he should have been paid to do this work. I don't blame him but I couldn't help that.
Truss roof costs -
Truss package ($23,000) less floor trusses ($6000) plus structural steel($7000) plus installation ($3000)=$27000
Stick framed roof costs
Tji's and framing lumber ($6000) plus framing labor ($9000) =$15000
Edited 10/1/2002 11:03:26 PM ET by SCHELLINGM
I hope you don't think I was calling you a liar or anything - The numbers just don't sound right to me. But without seeing the plans and being involved in the process, it's kinda hard to fiigure out what was going on.
I do understand the truss manufacturer being frustrated about designing the house and the costs involved. I can't tell you how many times I've spent hours on plans figuring out how to engineer it only to have the customer decide the house was too expensive to build or any number of other things. I feel like I'm being treated as a "free engineer" sometimes.
Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
I've been away for a couple days.
I'm glad to see the subject is still alive and well.
To sum up the past several posts, one thing that needs to show on plans needs to be decided as part of the process of design. Each coming from differing disciplines, (truss engineer, framer, designer, etc.) we each have differing priorities.
Theoretically, an architect is trained to meld all this together and has the training and experience to avoid too terribly much re-design work by designingh that which will work from the beginning.
So it seems like something is missing in this picture.
Lack of practical training?
Lack of attention to detail and or priorities by the archy?
Archys who learned early on that they could farm out their work and get by on someone elses shoulders?
Or what I also see sometimes, an attitude by the archy that the plans are only intended to convey a general idea, and that it is the contractors job to make it happen. That's fine with me, as long as the owner knows who is doing the real work.
BTW Boss, I grabbed that three percent out of my imagination, picking cherries out of thin air and enjoyed tongue in cheek. I'd bet it isn't much off tho'!
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I had to frame my friends house a few months ago but when the architect drew the plans, he had the roof at 35', town code 32'.
Luckily we caught this befor we started and it was changed. But there were quite a few things wrong with the roof that I told him had be changed.
He said make the changes and I'll revise them later.
I only let him get away with that because he was my friends partner in buisness some how. He did it no problem.
What happens to the architect that doesn't revise the plan and the framer does it the right way and Mr inspector says you didn't follow the plans?
Were you or anyone else in the same situation?
Joe Carola
All the time, Joe.
I don't have to deal with the inspectors in my formulae variables. Money, time, weather, subs, customer satisfaction, and my own health is plenty enough for me, not that I'd have too much trouble with inspectors. In a previous life....
I do get along with most archys and have learned a lot from them, as well as teaching them a thing or two. There was a time once when I hung the phone up on a BS arch. He called right back immediately, "What happened? We got cut off?" "No! you weren't interested in listening to my answer to your question so I thought that I'd save both of us some time." clic.
An hour later the owner called wondering what's up. He listened to my side of the story and told me not to worry about it. The arch was very concilliatory next time he called and thereafter.
Anyway, that's why in an earlier posting, I mentioned when I have to get it donme on a schedule, I draw a solution with a note that I expect approval or alternate within ____x days or I will proceed with assumed approval which puts it in his lap. If the arch wants total control, I just kick it back to him and wait. My jobs are 95%cost plus so I don't get hurt waiting. If I were under an inspection system where the production is dependent on aproved prints, I would wait for the approved prints unless I had a very tight relationship with the archy.
Let's face it, paperwork takes time and can cost money. Half the buildings in this country are built with inadequate documentation. Think of all the homeless people we'd have if every T were always crossed. Trust, experience, and judgement have their place. .
Excellence is its own reward!
I was just sitting here remembering another more simnilar to yours which made me wonder why the plans ever got approved originally with the height exceeding the allowable.
In this case the town has an elaboate formula for homes that are currently nonconforming but grandfathered. We are allowed to add on if the extent of the addition does not exceed 30% of the original under certain conditions. I explained all this to an architect who is otherwise a good guy and has good taste. He proceeded to design, ignoring the info I had given him. When it was turned down, I asked him why he didn't design to the dimensions required, he simply replied, "Those rulews didn't make sense to me, so I just designed something that looked right."
End story, I cut 14" off to make it fit the ordinance and got approval. archy got paid for plans only and lost other work with customer.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
As an owner/builder, I have built two houses for myself in the last few years. Both plansets were by first-class residential architects, who after doing the jobs for the initial clients, retained plan rights and then sold them to one of the big plans selling houses. I bought each set mail order. The first house was done from a 28-page drawing set and the second had 32 pages. In both cases the plans included allowances and locations of most all HVAC chases, and complete lighting drawings were included, as well as structural framing. Full house sections, cabinetry and built-in stuff were all shown, and believe me, everything was designed to work. In each case, roofs were complex, and 100 percent trussed. I spent months in the planning stage for both houses, recreating the structures in 3D CAD to verify everything, and to aid in getting the framing and trusses right. On the first job, I drew every truss, and spent a long nighttime session with my laptop in the truss engineers office, checking everything and making corrections. No truss busts on that one. Should have done it on the most recent one. My truss guy here blew a heel height (and I missed it) that messed us up for a while.
I spent quite a few years in commercial contracting where everything is explicitely stated in plans and specs, and I am in awe of how most residential building is done off the cuff, so to speak. I cannot work that way. I like it all on paper, well-planned, engineered, fully specified, and designed to work. I hate the thought of having to react and redesign at job time, instead of simply executing. I like paying my subs to do their jobs, and not to be reacting, questioning, and working out solutions.
Gene, I wish more contractors showed an interest in getting their trusses right like you apparently do.
While I don't generally like for contractors to draw their own truss profiles, I do like for them to take an interest in how things were framed, whether or not it will go together easily, etc. And it never hurts to have another set of eyes to look things over for mistakes.
Most contractors that I deal with figure the trusses aren't their responsibility, and want nothing to do with them. They seem to figure that if they provide any info or input at all, they assume some of the liability or something. Some won't even review the truss layout ahead of time.
DW says if charm were measured in methane, I'd be a dairy farm.
That all sounds fantastic and right.
Most custom homes are not built 100% to plan though because the owners come in, see something they don't like, and move a wall or a window, etc.That's the main reaason I work so hard with the 3D renderings. They can see what they are getting before work starts..
Excellence is its own reward!
Let me clear up what I meant when I said I drew the trusses. For me the truss package delivers the topside roof shape I want, and the bottomside ceiling profiles we need. We know exactly how and where our ridges, hips, and valleys are, and how our overhangs and soffits all configure. We clearly know our heel heights. Inside, we may have vaults, pans, barrels, etc., in addition to the routine flat ceilings. When I do a 3D truss arrangement, I don't concern myself at all with member sizes, webbings, or connections. I stick strictly to the outer perimeter of each truss, and do my plans accordingly. If we have attic truss situations, I define my attic wall and ceiling needs in my plans. I have seen enough truss work and erected so much of it in commercial work that I know what most all the conventions are, so I use what I know in doing my 3D design. We double at the girders, we drop the hips where appropriate for sleepers or hip laydown trusses, we know how to do jacks, monos, and most everything else. I allow for the furring I want, where required, and in 3D I can precisely arrange the topside and ceiling-side hips so sheathing or drywall or furring is dead planar. What I end up with is an arrangement and a set of details that lets me verify every one of those funky coded truss dimensions, and I also end up with a great piece to use in having a dialog with the truss plant's engineer. We both let the Mitek software (or whatever he is using) size the members, do all the webbings and connections, spec the lumber, and so forth. To me it is worth the time invested. When the crane arrives, all we do is pick and place and brace and nail. No bitches, no busts, no calls to the truss plant. On the two houses I built this way, we were done with the crane by donut break time. I plan to continue this tradition on the spec we will start next spring.
Boss,
Since I don't work with trusses and several builders never have yet, at least not enough to know what is available and how to use them, I don't know half of what he was just talking about! You do.
Now if that isn't an idea for an article, I don't know what is.
Coming soon to FHB, "Truss building - a builders primer"
How about it big guy? You could become more well known in your home town - Famous or infamous, which will it be?
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin - All the *REAL* builders already know how to use trusses..............(-:
Actually, I've given it a bit of thought, and might make an effort in that direction. Maybe this winter when things are slow.
Maybe I could start with an outline, and post it here to see what everyone thinks would be good subjects to cover/skip?
Knowing you has put a song in my heart. But the fat lady in the viking helmet is really starting to annoy me.
I try out the alternate layouts, too, and work hard to see what is most effective, in placing girders, jacks, hipsets, etc. I got into this game of getting deeply into truss arrangements before giving the plans to the truss guys, out of necessity. In trying to run budget pricing for both my house jobs, I had the lumberyards get truss quotes from their preferred suppliers, and to reply to me with enough detail so I could see what they were thinking. Each time, I ran into what I considered lazy, non-creative truss folks who were saying things like, "stick frame that section," or, "we won't do those little mono jacks," or "you can't head off bottom chords that way." I had complex ceilings, inside hipped, hipped with pan trays, lowered hallways, circular vaults, but with reasonably simple top planes. I could tell I was in for a truss package headache unless I took matters into my own hands. I was not in markets where you can find truss design people who will take on and meet the challenge, saying, "I have never met a roof that I can't truss." For me, doing a truss scheme in 3D CAD is like building it in my head, better than making a 1/12 scale wood model, because I can work it all out, easily make revisions, try different possibilities, and so forth. Each job needed some heavy funky steel connectors, and my work paid off in allowing me to do the geometry for those, so that the USP and Simpson guys got 'em right the first time.
I don't know how the other CADs work, but Softplan seems set perfectly for this way of designing. I can draw the roof, and the ceiling to the elevations I want and not bother drawing the rafters or trusses in until a conference with the truss guy. The 3D renderings will display a roof with whatever texture I put on it but cut sections will show nothing but void where rafters go until I do the frame work..
Excellence is its own reward!
I know that I'm not a real builder. Us cyberweenies are just as worthless as tits on a boar hog, aren't we? BOO HOO snif snif....[hangs head]
LOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
This has been such a good thread that I saved it to hard drive. Thanks everyone..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Did you e-mail me at 7:47 pm?
Joe Carola
Yes, just replied to yours..
Excellence is its own reward!
I realized that you weren't specifying web members, etc. - But that's not what I meant.
Since I've been doing layouts for years, and that's pretty much all I do, I can try different ways of laying out trusses to eliminate or minimize girders, etc. Since I do it all the time, and put some effort into it, I feel like I can do it better than any other designer I've worked with/around. (I'm real modest, too) I can give you some examples if you like.
I don't mean to minimize your efforts. I would just prefer to get the planes, wall heights, and other info correct the first time, and take it from there. That's more than I get from 99% of the builders I work with.
BTW - did you see the "techno weenies" thread I started? (http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=23641.1)I'm curious if Mitek software can do that yet. I think it has some real value for difficult jobs. It can give you a virtual 3D look at all the trusses, with the actual web patterns in them. Also shows how they all fit together.
A waist is a terrible thing to mind.
Wow. I haven't found anyone that used generic cadd in a long time. I still have a pentium 166 with win 3.11 for the generic cadd and a pentium 3 with win 98 for the autocad. I need a slow time to switch over. Generic cadd is so much faster. Tried visual cadd but it was too buggy. Tried turbo cad and it was two cumbersome. I need autocad to keep up with my consultants and now several clients. Oh well its time to change. Change is a good thing, right?
I'm trying to learn the Turbo better with the CD Cadcourse right now. Maybe I'll have to dig out the old machine and re-install generic to it, brings back memories.
Naw - just kidding - so much of what I'm doing is 3D renderings but I need to have more of the basic CAD that SP doesn't alow me.
Been a great thread guys!
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Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 9/29/2002 6:51:03 PM ET by piffin
> and a pentium 3 with win 98 for the autocad.
It could be the OS that's slow. I'm using a pentium 2 with NT 4 for AutoCad LT, and it's plenty fast enough.
-- J.S.
Totally off topic, now, but I was recently looking through a copy of Flight magazine, which listed all the commercial flight simulators in the world. Amazingly, many of them, under the heading of "computer" that runs the flight simulator, are categories like 80386 and Pentium, not to mention the old PDP11. Can you believe that a fully functional flight simulator for a modern Boeing jet is running on a computer that isn't powerful enough to run the latest version of a word processor?
Thank Gates for an inefficient system...
Jon Blakemore
Alignments rather than hard dimensions (where appropriate) - definitely!
Also, I think it's pretty simple to be more communicative within hard dimension strings. Supplementing a numerical dim. with a note like min., clr. begins to prioritize dimensions within a string. As far as which dimension in a string best to sacrifice - if (within an overall dimension) one string element is simply omitted, you'll know that one matters least!
What many architects don't remember as they're dimensioning is that what they intended all along was to have those windows centered on that facade - not 4' 8-1/16" from the corner! So why not say so?
Folks:
Most of the poster folks here are small businesses that would undertake a smallish wood framed comm. building.One thing I'd like to see in the details, is instructions on fire stopping. Wouldn't y'all? The most I've seen in drawings is a note thatgoes something like"firestop penetrations in rated assemblies with an intumescent product or equivilant", or soething like that. There's been a couple discussions on the subject in the past, maybe thrre or four posts each. A pipe gets a differant device than a wire/ per 1or2or3hr floor-cieling. For each job I'd like to see something like : __" dia pvc pipe- proper size hole- product to use- location.# # # # # # # , # # #--# # # # !
I fight with lousy prints every day, so this may be a long one.
First, I wanna see a print that's actually POSSIBLE. That one I brought up in the recent thread had some serious design flaws - Second floor rooms where there was zero headroom, etc. Since the 1.5 story messes seem to be getting more and more popular, this happens all too often.
How about section views on complex houses? If the designer in that particular house had drawn some section views, he might have realized he was drawing the impossible. And section views can communicate a lot about what they're looking for in ceiling profiles.
Next would be some slight consideration given to how to hold the thing up. I'm seeing more and more 1.5 story messes where no effort is made as to how to support the 2nd floor. They float over the garages and/or the center of the house with no thought as to what's going to support them.
Again using that house for an example - The 2nd floor stuck out over the garage. I had to come up with 5 different beams to support the twists and turns that the 2nd floor made, many of which hung on a girder truss. That particular girder sat almost in the middle of an 18' garage door, and it had an 8,400# reaction. Now the builder is pissed because it requires a 3 ply LVL beam in a 2X4 wall. With some planning ahead of time, that might have been avoided.
Maybe I'm really reaching here, but I'd like to see plans that were actually thought through, and what's actually going to get built. We're constantly going through stuff like: "We can't decide what roof pitch to use" or "Do you think we should put a gable on the garage instead of a hip?" or "We can't decide if we should coffer the master bedroom. BTW - When are we gonna get our trusses?".
Many of the plans we get have no dimensions for some of the interior walls. Really makes it a pain when some of the rooms are vaulted. Also on dimensions - Call out the wall thickness you're assuming when you draw the freakin' thing. If you assume 4" for exterior walls, it makes it a lot easier to add things up on the inside so they make sense.
I like the suggestion that ANDYSZ2 made about having a name and phone number to call with questions Why is it that most print drawers only put their initials on them?
Guess I'd better quit with that for now. Don't wanna be puttin' anybody to sleep with this............(-:
Do medics in Rome refer to IVs as 4s?
I found that true of commercial work .............. trying to get an answer or a clarification was often like trying to pull hen's teeth. They must have taken your vow of silence ;o). You might finally get an addendum 2 days before the bid date which would make major changes ......... its not right.
Good points!
I like to do section drawings where needed. With the Softplan, it can be done faster than typing to describe it here. Draw section line, save, create section A, save as, done. I actually stop to refresh my sections and profiles as I draw just to see if the program is doing in 3D what I think I'm telling it to do.
So we move section drawings near the top of the wish list. With elevation dimensions.
A lot of the other things you mention sound like bad communications between owner/client and architect/draftsperson or these are prepackaged sets from mail order taken on faith and no chain of responsibility from owner to designer. They should answer most of those questions before picking up a pencil. The builder who starts framing with no idea how he's going to support loads is on the way to bankruptcy, IMO, unless he's working a slippery con game with people.
As to thinking things through, (I'll brag a little here) that is one of my strong points. Not only do I have a concept of what I want to do before starting, but when it is drawn, I sit staring at it and mentally walking through the building, openning doors, using the kitchen, imagining where the sunlight is going to come in, etc. Are all the designers so busy they have no time for this more enjoyable portion of the creative process, or have they all become nothing more than technicians, putting lines on paper without understanding what those lines mean?Excellence is its own reward!
Having spent years in an architectural office, I can tell you that most draftsmen and architects don't put themselves in the place of the builder/carpenter/tradesmen who have to build from their documents. In my mind, the key to a good set of docs and the best way to check and proofread is to put yourself in the place of the guy who is going to build it.
Unfortunately, a lot of the architectural profession does not spend time in the field either, so a lot of designs and details get to the drawing stage as either impractical or unworkable. Consistent dimensioning standards in the industry would help also.
But with the reality of cost economics, architects have to balance out how much detail is enough without going broke or without sacrificing the design quality of the project. No excuse, though not to return calls from the field promptly ... something's lacking or not clear on the dwgs if there's a question from the builder!!
Thanks for those comments. I am supposing that when you sit, putting yourself in the place of the builder, mentally, the chief archy is walking past and looking at your lack of activity since he can't see the mental wheels turning and thinking of kicking you into gear again. Good creative work doesn't always appear productive. Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry I didn't answer quicker - Heck of a busy day.
" The builder who starts framing with no idea how he's going to support loads is on the way to bankruptcy"
Don't know why, but that's the accepted norm around here. Let the truss company figure it out later.
"have they all become nothing more than technicians, putting lines on paper without understanding what those lines mean?"
That's pretty much the situation as I see it. Once the plan is drawn and the check is in the bank, what difference does it make if the plan is flawed or not? They've got their money.
The thing about it that ticks me off is no seems to see this as the fault of the designer. If the truss company can't make it work, it's their fault.
Like when I told the guy he needed a 3 ply beam in a 2X4 wall: "Why the heck won't it work? Can't you make it work as a 2 ply?"
Like I had a wand I could wave that would somehow make the beam work the way he wanted it. No mention of the designer not thinking of it when he drew the freakin' print.
Guess that's enough venting for one day. I'm gonna go open and close the fridge to see if that little light really goes off...........(-:
When you shut the door on a refridgerator, how do you know that little light inside really goes off?
Hi there,
Got to agree with you. I work for a stock plan company, and you would not believe the garbage some "designers/architects" send us for publishing. Luckily, we like most companies in the business "weed out the junk" before even spending a nickle on artwork. What has always amazed me is the arrogance of some of the architects. Actually had a guy once that told (after I informed him that there was a major error on the plans" that ..."in his 4 years of practice, he has never had anyone find a problem with his plans", what a genius.
I have reviewed thousands of different plans, and have got to admit that the best work always seem to come from some "residential designer" that has been doing it for 20 years. These guys always seem to have a background in building and can actually visualize the three dimensional spaces, detail them properly, and dimension them adequately. The trouble spots seem to come from "newly licensed architects". It seems that these guys think that a cad program is a new and wonderful tool that replaces experience, common sense, and spatial concepts.
Problems I see all the time are: Not enough head room over basement stairs. Windows dimensioned to jambs instead of center lines. Roof errors on exterior elevations. And WAY TOO MANY NOTES that say "Framing per engineer". Seems that a lot of the new guys just can't do the simple engineering for a residence. Shame really, since most good framers seem to be able to do it instinctively.
Later.
I think I mentioned my place was built from a design handed to the framers on a piece of graph paper. No real plans, certianly no real drawings of any kind. It went pretty well, BUT there is the staircase that protrudes into the garage that really would have been better a little farther into the house with every thing moved a few feet toward the rear on that side of the house. Sure, it would have cost a bit more, but not thousands and thousands. With garage entry and 'bonus' area door and a double door panty being so close together it kind of looks like a carnival house with a pick a door room.
Also, there was a lot of space that could have been useful storage that wound up cut off by the blind valley made because there was no design to guide them any other way. (got that answer the other day) I could understand if the structure was super complicated, but this place is a simple 'L' design with a gable roof. Also, the plans this builder uses have virtually no details at all. To get them it costs much more, so they don't get them.
A typical tract home shouldn't need detail drawings. Custom and unique work should get it. Too many times, I see plans where the archy makes a note, saying do "thus and so" but I can see it ain't possible and either send it back to him for him to correct or I draw a suggested solution and hav ehim approve it. The later is more under my control and likely to be workable - not to mention faster, but there are some who are just letting me do their work for them. I'll bend over backwards to work together with a good man but if I'm being used, I'm as likely to throw it back in his lap.Excellence is its own reward!
There was a story in an old FHB about a homeowner and an architect building a house together. Every time they got to one of the tricky details, the architect would try to talk the homeowner, who was the more experienced builder, into doing it. The homeowner would bounce it back to him. "No way, buddy! You drew it. You build it."
"I'll bend over backwards to work together with a good man but if I'm being used, I'm as likely to throw it back in his lap."
The problem with this is that you won't see the solution for two weeks. How often can you wait that long? We start the job checking with the architect on any change but if we don't get quick responses, we (and the homeowner) figure that we are on our own.
If I can't wait, I find the way to make it work, generally by drawing the detail and submitting it to the archy and the owner (this way the owner knows who is doing the work) with a cover letter stating that I need aproval for this detail which will be implimented by __________x date unless I hear denial in writing before that.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Someone mentioned ealier, drawing for the mechanicals. Does that ever happen in residential? Most of my experience is in residential remodeling and commercial construction. The few home that I have built have not had mechanical drawing. Would it increase the cost of the design that much to have a mechanical engineer produce the HVAC plan for a residential set of prints? Or is that left out so the home owner or builder can make the selection of what type system fits thier budget? It would seem that with todays more energy efficient construction, that HVAC systems should be included in the design process. I have been in several custom home that had cold spots or areas of poor circulation because the HVAC contractor designed the system in the field.
Just courious as to you thoughts and experience.
I have seen one in about thirty some years building that had a mechanical plan. Several have had areas blocked out as space for runs without being detailed and we usually are able to work to. I can think of two where the only way to run ducting was to create a coffered/tray ceiling in the lower floor room which changed the design details there considerably. Occasionally an archy thinks of mechanicals but most often it is only after the plans are done. We had a customer call and demand that air conditioning ducts be added to a complicated remodel of his bedroom suite right after all the framing was finished, wiring and plumbing in and ready for SR. We had gone to a lot of trouble to put in under floor radiant heat to avoid the space lost to ducting and the uglyness of registers. Sigh!
Increase the cost of plans?
Like someone said, it is cheaper to use an ereasure than a sawsall.
I have theory about how a lot of inadequate plans make it to the job.
The proper way to do the design process, IMO, is to discuss and then present your "concept drawing" which may only be a rough pencil scetch or it may be a faiurly thorough set of plans. You don't waste time on all the details until you are confident that the client is more or less pleased with the concept and you discuss what they like/dislike about it.
Then you get down to the real work of putting it all together and refining the plan. Adding details and mechanicals happens at this phase.
I think some people buy the concept plan as the actual, dismiss the designer and then hire it built, leaving the builder and Boss to work out the problems.
When I print out my concept drawings, they are mostly in 3D or at an unmanageable scale without calling out dimensions to prevent theft of my creative work or proceeding without my involvement. My plans are printed "Not for construction" and unscaled until I am paid.Excellence is its own reward!
> Someone mentioned ealier, drawing for the mechanicals. Does that ever happen in residential?
I drew mechanical, electrical, and plumbing. And that only proved to everybody that I didn't know any better. B&S won't even look at that stuff.
-- J.S.
>B&S won't even look at that stuff.
Thus far, that's the case with all I've seen, too. The plumber of record, elec of record, and HVAC dude of record will do as they wish once on site, and change whatever they wish whenever they wish. The most that gets used is the dimensioning page showing locations of drains--they use this to plan out the slab. No matter what equip has been discussed, the contractor will talk the HO into something else--whatever he's used to handling locally. Drawings anticipating one solution or set of equip are useless unless the HO/builder is ready to commit, and since I don't typically have access to the individual subcontractor that early in the process, it's impossible to know how they'd like to see things done. I'd be happy to provide whatever detail the builder needs, but typically that's no more than properly dimensioned drawings that the contractor will customize on-site. Residential only, of course. Commercial work has more stringent requirements.
Boss Hog,
Piffin just opened my eyes to what this thread is all about. Reading your first post is like listening to myself talking for the past 19 years.
In your case the architects should work with you as or befor they design. I'll call what they do sometimes is they play "connect the dots" lets hope it works in the field. In New Jersey you'll see the ± "INCHES" sign alot on plans, that sometimes in the field means "FEET."
Not all architects, some of them are amazing. I always said from a framers point of view, they should maybe go out in the field and work for a framer maybe on the weekends.
I've ran into that situation befor when they call for two micro lams with 1/2 flitch plate in between for a 2x4 wall.
One big problem among all the others, is the Rafters.
The first house that framed when I started my own buisness, I was 22 years old. The roof had a 12/12 - 9/12- 7/12- 5/12- and 3/12 pitches.
It can be done but the architect had them all on the same height walls, not a problem. But he wanted all the same overhangs fascia lines and soffit lines. And to top it off the were some cathedrla ceilings ;-)
I called him and told him it can be done but you have to have differences in your wall or plate heights to keep all the overhangs, fascia lines and soffits the same.
He told me thats not true, even after I explained to him again he still didn't understand. So I told him to come out to the sight.
So I made little rafter patterns of all the different pitches with the same overhangs and plumb cuts and nailed them on the same 2x4, when he saw that all the fascia lines and soffit lines didn't line up he said oh yeh your right.
One architect drew a hip on an addition that when you layed it out it was 4' into the master bedroom right across were the bed was going to be, "Nice effect."
I had to frame the bedroom wall first and then break the hip and rest it into the outside wall and change the roof line.
How many times do you look at a plan and the valley or hip is right in the middle of a stairwell?
I do alot of jobs where you have two different pitched hip and valley roofs, thats where some architects get confused. I could right a book on this one but you guys would probaly tell me for a new guy on this forum, "You talk to much."
The list goes on Boss I'm sure you have a million stories too.
Joe Carola
One thing that pushes in the direction of minimal drawings is plan check. The more you put on paper, the more opportunities the plan checker has to misunderstand and object.
The real purpose of plans isn't to show you what to build. It's to get past plan check and pull that permit.
-- J.S.
John, the guy that checks the plans in the county where I am building my house is also the building inspector and the electrical inspector. When I submitted my plans for my shop a few years ago, he was unavailable to check them. He was attending a one week school on how to check plans! As the inspector, do you rally think he would fail a structure he has already approved, unless there was seriously flawed workmanship?
People who hire a design archt. should also hire the builder at the same time, and take him to every meeting. My house plans are detailed like a good commercial job. I wanted as little room for error for myself or any sub as possible. I had my arcth. and energy engineer walk my land and design to our way of life. A simple concept that should be applied to most home design. Instead we get pretentiouse mcmansion that are flawed from the get go.
Dave
> the guy that checks the plans in the county where I am building my house is also the building inspector and the electrical inspector.
Very different here. Building and Safety has something close to a thousand employees. Plan checkers never do anything else, and have never done anything else. It's all theory and paper to them. In theory, you should be able to draw plans and have them checked. In practice, you have to hire somebody they already know to pull the permit for you. My engineer told me that I had way too much detail on my drawings.
-- J.S.
I feel for anyone living in a place like that, John.Excellence is its own reward!
"The real purpose of plans isn't to show you what to build. It's to get past plan check and pull that permit."
So just when exactly are you suposed to communicate to everyone what you want to build ???
Keep in mind that the whole country doesn't have plan checks. Around here there are no building departments or plan checks.
If a candle factory burns down, do they try to put out the fire? Or simply stand around singing happy birthday?
> So just when exactly are you suposed to communicate to everyone what you want to build ???
Around here you don't get what you want. You get what you get. ;-)
-- J.S.
The craftsman who taught me how to draft (pencil and paper) always said "it's cheaper and easier to work things out on paper. A mistake is easily erased." I think this should be on a post-it note on every draftsman's monitor. Especially with CAD (can I just say that I love CAD) we have no excuse not to work out our mistakes before they leave our hands.
I think all dimensions should be actual (ie, not 5" for a wall). If your wall is 2x4 with 1/2" sheathing and 5/8 drywall, call it at 4-5/8". Not that hard to do. If you add 1/2" foam on the outside, call it 5-1/8". I would also like to see more dimensions than one typically has. Maybe a sheet with all the exterior dimensions (for complex house with many bump-outs, inside and outside corners) and one for just interior dimensions. And make the dimensions correct also. Many times I look at the plans during break just to see how many mistakes I can find in the dimensions. Houses will be 2-1/2" longer on one side than the other. Why? Someone was not careful. I believe this is a serious problem.
Section views are also our friends. A simple section can communicate the draftsman's intent very efficiently. Of course, this assumes that the draftsman/archy actually knows how he would make the section.
I'm sure there's more.
Very good Jon and thank you.
One more vote for good sections.
One reason I think that a lot of drafters don't make the final corrections they should with that eraser is a mental block that is partly false ego. "I've already done that - let the damn carpenter figure it out in place - no sense me wasting my time doing it again"
One of the nice things about Softplan - you can create whatever walls you want at whatever thickness with whatever materials. So, after saving a custom wall, When you draw it, all the dimensions are true. eg. I have a "cottage wall" which has cedar shingles on 7/8" sheathing and full 4" studs and the inside has 5/8" for plaster on lathe. That is the common wall on these older homes I work with. I can set the dimension to take from exterior surface or from stud edge. Did I mention that I love my CAD?
Regardless of the tools used tho' it is unconscionable, IMO, to send out drawings without reviewing them. It would be like Andy Engle letting articles go to the printer without reading them to see if they make sense and hitting the spell checker, or like the printer putting the mag together without being sure whether the photos are all right side up.
We all make mistakes, its ignoring them that is a sin.Excellence is its own reward!
A lot of great replies to the question. I have a slightly different take. We are presently working on an architect designed house which has a nice set of drawings complete with sections, elevations, and a fair set of notes. Aside from the fact that we received most of these documents after the foundation and deck framing was complete (We hope this works out pricewise. The details are adding to the cost.) , the plans are a good guide for the construction of this building.
However, it always seems that a couple of areas are a problem. In this case the headroom for the stairs and roof framing were impossible and not to code as drawn. I don't know how much time the architect spent on these two areas, but it was wasted time. We had to raise a couple of walls to gain the headroom for the stairs. The drawings showed a valley which ended up inside the house. We put a large cricket in the roof to move the valleys to the edge of the roof.
Once a house gets past a certain point of complexity, I find it very difficult to ferret out these problems just by looking at the plans. And I do this frequently. The problems only come to light when we are actually beginning to frame them. It is very difficult for a designer to catch everything. Sometimes they provide a little too much detail. I prefer having a little freedom to do things as I see fit, as long as the finish product is in compliance with the plan. I can give a superior product at a lower cost. I will have to do this in the areas where the plan is inadequate anyway.
As a builder, I like that flexability too. This point is opposite to the earlier comment that even every flashing detail should be drawn. I think the thing to keep in mind here is the audience. Every public speaker soon learns to speak in terms the audience will understand (Except for Al Gore) It a draftsman knows for whom he draws, it becomes a more effiecient process. There are some I've worked with that I can ask, "Should we do this crown like that one last year or simplify it?" and get a verbal to go. Others scare me to death with there constant documentation to avoid responsibility.
When I'm drawing for DIY homeowners, I am very thorough and detailed - less so for other builders who are proficient - and simpler yet for my own crews.
I think that a set of plans is much like the score for a musical production. Several orchestras can get the same on paper but one conductor might get it technicaly correct and no-one really enjoy it while another conductor brings passion to the same piece of music so as to leave the audience wowed.
That is where the builder comes in. He interprets the score!Excellence is its own reward!
>In this case the headroom for the stairs and roof framing were impossible and not to code as drawn.
This is one of the reasons I automatically include 3D renderings and flyovers with each design. It's not a guarantee I won't miss something, but it will help me catch probably 99% of whatever might not have been obvious from just the floorplan. Just did a redesign of someone else's work where on a sloped roof, the windows set to a 6'8 height would have protruded 2'. That's the kind of thing a computer model from a good CAD program would have made embarassingly obvious.
Whoever said above to review plans from the eyes of the builder was on target. One of the things I "sell" to clients is that I've built a house like theirs with my own lil' ol' hands. My plan reviews include making believe I had to build this house, and visualizing how I'd procede with this set of plans. No guarantee that I'll have anticipated everything the actual builder would like to see, or the way they'd like to see it, but I don't turn 'em over till I believe they're buildable. And then I'll update them if the builder has requests.
20 years ago when I had charge of the engineering and design for a large industrial complex one of the best idea I had was to have members of the design department spend 2 weeks each in our inhouse machine shop. They rotated through the shop and followed the formen around and help "explain" the drawings. Two things resulted from this effort -- the design got a lot better and the formen in the shop were on a first name bases with the designers. Made it easy for them to give them a call and say "we can't build your damn design". (The shop had about 120 folks and the design department about 30)
I know this doesn't answer your question of what to put on a drawing, but maybe if you could find a way to follow up on designs (problems) in the field then that would give a first hand answer as to what should be on drawings.
deblacksmith
Your whole point is that communications helps everyone.
A design doesn't get too far along before you realize it won't work so time and money is saved, not to mention egos. I'd much rather get shot down before I get too far above the ground than when I'm a mile high with my fat head [grin]
The one I'm working on right now is really enjoyable because the owner, myself as draftsman/designer/builder, and the interior designers are all sitting down weekly to bounce ideas and budget concerns off of each other right from the beginning. (Only wild card is owner's wife, who knows how to say, "I want...")
Drawings are just one communications tool. Another place this applies is with situations like Boss runs. Personally, I haven't seen a truss in fifteen years. If I started useing them, I would need to sit down with him and get some vocabulary. I want my trusses to allow room for insulation and ventilation at the eaves. I want the overhang and drop to work out so the bottom of the facia doesn't impede light and view at the top of the windows. If I don't know how trusse are built, I give hiom a headache or I design something not typical and he has to charge an extra fee for setup. By understanding his peculiar setup, I might be able to modify a design to work with him instead of agianst him.
Looking for the win-win.
Excellence is its own reward!
Aside from social pleasantries, your conversation with Boss would last about five minutes because you would not ask for the impossible, would actually listen to his questions, and would not expect the trusses to be delivered in less than a week.
My background is trim and finish, the stuff that you usually don't see on plans. In most cases, that means that the architect, designer, draftsman, whoever, hasn't considered how or if the trim will fit. Then they whine, and so do I, when you have to hack up the door and window casing because the trim detail won't fit.
My last job was the trim in an architect's own house. After I had to alter and screw up 40% of the door casings to fit the building dimensions, I stood him in front of a door at the end of a hall and walked him through the why's of why he had to design a 4 foot wide hallway if he wanted to use his 3-1/2" casing on a 3-0 door.
Good planning for the trim (the only part of the job you actually see when it's done) often means specifying all of the finish hardware before you draw a line. The sad option if you don't is often butchery on the job site.
BEMW,
It's a losing battle.
I've got probably a dozen sets of knives cut to the inside detail of a dozen different architectural casings, so I can jackmiter the inside corners where bedroom doors and adjacent closet doors are too close to fit.
I routinely run a dozen or more wide boards thinned down to the right thickness for jackmiters when we start a new job. At the same time I double run the detail for all the jack miters on exterior door/window units and any other place I can think of. Even so, I nearly always am short and have to do it again later on in the job.
Nonetheless, it's still better,faster,cheaper than riping, glueing and sanding through concrete based primer.
clampman
Good point and one that goes back to the thought on section drawings.
The best set of plans I ever worked on was from an arch who drew every single interior wall elevation including light switches, mirrors in the wall, custom cabinetry, etc.
His background was closer to interior design tho' so some of his extrior work stunk, re: placement of windows and symetry for a beautiful, ballanced approach. I knew another archy who had great exterior focus with classical design and fantastic proportions. He had absolutely no concept of interior space though. The two of them together would've made a genius!
I guess this gets away from what items to draw on plans but it demonstrates that we all have strong points and it is hard to consider every little thing. Sometimes a team approach can be better but it's hard to put creative talent on a leash!2500 and counting...
It's possible to have quality AND quantity!
Excellence is its own reward!