I recently installed a kitchen in a walk-out basement apartment in a residential duplex building.
When it came time to install the new faucet and dishwasher, I realized there was no main water shutoff in the apartment.
I called the buildings owner ( who occupies the upper two floors of this same building ) but he was unavailable so his father came to let me in to the main residence then back down a flight of stairs to a basement area that was not accessible from the apartment I was working in.
He pointed out the water meters ( there were two which made sense as the building is a duplex ). I located & closed a shut-off valve located a few feet in from one of the meters tagged ” downstairs apartment “. As an extra precaution, I also closed a valve connected to the water heater which I was told just serviced the basement apartment.
We walked back around to the apartment and I did what I always do… went to whatever taps were available ( in this case, the bathroom sink and tub ) and opened them to relieve any pressure in the lines. A slight dribble of water then absolutely no flow of water from any of the opened taps. I then went to the new sink base in the kitchen to cut off the soldered caps that the previous contractor had installed on the copper stubs protruding through the wall.
I’m sure everyone can see where this story is going. There was full pressure behind those caps… I cut the hot side first unfortunately ( I very nearly scalded my hands ) but somehow I was able to get the new shut-off valve ( compression type ) installed while trying my best to stem the flow of water.
The homeowner/landlord has not paid me for the kitchen installation and is demanding I take responsibity for the replacement cost of the laminate floor which was badly damaged by the water.
I install kitchens for a living and have never encountered anything like this before.
I would appreciate any feedback both negative or positive.
Sorry… I tried to keep the details as short & concise as possible.
Replies
I'd say it's a tough call. This is one of those incidents that you carry general liability insurance for. You do have insurance don't you?
http://grantlogan.net
.......now there's a Batman.....
I have 5 million liabilty insurance and yes I could have just made a claim and had my premiums go up but I feel that a landlord should be aware that his building contravenes both building codes and common sense.
Certainly the contractor that pulled out the old kitchen had the luxury of opening a tap connected to a drain to discover that the shutoff in fact only shut down part of the apartment.
if you have insurance, you either:
make a claim
or
don't make a claim and take care of the repairs at your expense.
if you don't have insurance you take care of the repairs at your expense.
it's all very simple. your reputation is on the line. either way, act quickly and take care of this.
carpenter in transition
What SeeYou said.
If your insured you should have contacted them right away and had the ball rolling before you told the owner of the damage.Even with no insurance you should have just sucked it up and took care of the problem as it occurred.
It's not impossible for the client seeing you deal with this issue they might have offered to share in the cost. By delaying action you gave theman opening to worry about wether they hired the right person.
I mean no criticism to you personally.
I'm not asking what others would have done after the flood... I'm asking, given the course of events leading up to me cutting the cap off that pipe, what anyone would have done any differently and hindsight doesn't count .
re: not asking what others would have done after the flood
Immediately after, with 1/2" copper pipe it is really simple even if yu cut it off with a tubing cutter. Just grap the pipe with a vise grip and squeeze it shut, works even on type M.
In Grandma's > 100 YO house, had a galv pipe break when trying to tighten a very old leaky union - simply grabbed a short chunk of 2x4 and drove the end over the broken pipe end, held till could get to the valve.
Sorry... I tried to keep the details as short & concise as possible.
So much so I couldn't really find your question in all that. My bad for thinking you were asking what you could do now to get paid. As others have said what you could have done in the first place would have been shut all the water services down andf figured out a hose situation to let the excess water run to the nearest drain.
For me I should have realized I shut the wrong side of the line off at the waterheater. I shut off the supply to the humidifier which I think shouldn't of had a hot supply.
But then you asked for advice both negative or positive.
Edited 8/11/2008 11:12 pm by jagwah
Edited 8/11/2008 11:13 pm by jagwah
Who / Where is this "previous contractor" that installed the plumbing??
These types of scenarios are why I really don't mess around w other peoples plumbing much any more,,,,,, granted,,,,,, what you were doing seems like a no brainer.
So many ways to get burned in this business. I feel for you.
Harry
He's a jack of all trades who told me he subbed to a plumber??? Somebody had to be aware of this prior to me cutting that pipe... that's the point I'm trying to make.
Don't matter. You start fooling around with the pipes - you get to take responsibility for what happened.Be glad it wasn't a new solid wood floor I guess...JT
"Somebody had to be aware of this prior to me cutting that pipe... that's the point I'm trying to make."So now you're aware as well. Are you going to go back and fix it?When you cut pipes, YOU take on the risk that everything will not go as planned.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I had just about the same thing happen to me. During a bath remodel, unfortunately during demo, I turned off the wrong valve. It was a similiar bad situation. When I broke free the pipe to finish removing the vanity it spewed very hot water. After quit a while I finally got the valve on.
As luck would have it I had removed the stool already and was able to push the excess water to the drain, I messed up the sheet rock abut kept it out of the hall by shutting the door and putting my sweatshirt against the door.
As for the floor I had pulled up the carpet there and it was bare concrete.
My point is I dealt with it right then. Moped up my mess, removed base and sheetrock and the vanity. No one new my mistakeeven tho they were home.
I was lucky it was a small bath and all of was being redone. I never thought I was turning off the wrong valve.
Edited 8/11/2008 7:53 pm by jagwah
Edited 8/11/2008 7:54 pm by jagwah
Hey that's a good looking bath.
Nice work!"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
Beautiful bathroom. Thanks for posting those photos.
Did you do the MDF work? I use MDF quite a bit with great results.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Yes I did all but the Toille on the wall.
I even broke the original toilet,for good luck you know, so I could buy them a new one. This bath had a final cost of just over $15,000, including the local artist painting.
Jon,
With that approach, how do you dare do anything for anybody?
How can you do anything? You do your best to verify and then be prepared for being wrong.I did some maintenance work in Baltimore City schools for a year. I frequently had to deal with difficult plumbing problems like you faced. 40 year old gate shut off valves on galvanized piping in dank crawl spaces and chases made for some interesting events. It wasn't always pretty, but I managed to avoid a flood that caused damage. Fortunately there were no laminate floors in sight, just acres of VCT over concrete so not much I could do that a mop wouldn't clean up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Sorry to say it, but unless I could physically trace the lines that were being worked on back to the shutoff, I would have wanted to shut off both meters, (its only a duplex) only exception is if the homeowner himself shut off the water.
I think you have to take care of it.
1ST WELCOME TO BT, surprised you have not been dumped on more for this already. Live and learn.
DUH! - Even us amateurs verify pressure (in addition to opening lower elevation faucets) before cutting a pipe - your fault, won't do that again will you?. Own preferred method is to cut an unknown pipe with a fine hacksaw, then if there is pressure, it is just a tricle at the first penetration that can be staunched with tape temporarlily. Even thumping a copper pipe with your fingernail will tell you if there is water in it or not.
Same with electricity - knowhow to work it hot or use a tester to make sure no voltage.
I had bled off pressure at the same level ...no where lower to go... and the shutoff was identified as the basement apartment shutoff which it only partially did.
The copper stubs were connected to plastic just behind the drywall no tonal difference discerned with the fingernail trick.
Thanks! I'll put that in my back pocket,, but that's what this is for isn't it!?
I disagree with the others.
There was a dangerous defect in more ways than one.
I don't know the code on plumbing, but electrical the tenant must have free access to their electrical panel.
Logically they should have the same for being able to turn off the water. Although I don't know if the code covers that or not.
The owner should be glad that the defect was found now and be looking at the plumber who installed this.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Greetings Andrew and Welcome to BT.
Hindsight is easy but it often leads to better use of logic. This experience also falls under the old "assume nothing" point of view. Both of them I've learned too many times.
To begin with I'd have done some backtracking to discover where every water line came into the apartment. I'd have measured off two common surfaces, vertical and horizontal, then made a simple drawing, so that I could be sure what was what on the other side of the partition.
Had it not been possible to track all the pipes precisely, I'd have insisted on turning off both main valves, before cutting off any caps.
And I'd still have kept a couple of buckets and some old towels on hand.
BTW, thanks for the question. I'd never heard about crushing a copper pipe shut with a big vise grip. That's another tool I'll have ready next time I'm in that situation.
Andrew, do you know why men don't ask directions? Because we always get the wrong answers!
You relied on pops. That's your first mistake.
Second, you didn't verify that the water was shut off with some sort of clever plumbing trick. I'm not plumber but I might have drilled a sheet metal screw into the pipe if I didn't have any other way of checking.
The reality is for me that I would have done what you did....made the big mess. But...I would have just assumed that I had to fix the damage. At this point in my life, as I think back, I've always had to fix every damage, even the damage done by others. I wish I knew a way to weasel out of it.
Have fun working on that floor.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
For those not familiar with them - there are some quick-fit plumbing fittings call sharkbite that have o-rings in em and they allow for solderless/crimpless fittings and junctions to be made instantaneously.While I'll not get into whether they are good for behind walls and whatnot, the sharkbite end-caps (or stubs) are SUPER handy to have as they allow you to stub out the rough and simply push on the fitting till your ready to sweat or compress valves on.In the OP's situation - having a couple on hand would have totally eliminated the subsequent problem. The minute the water started - he could have slipped the fitting on and it'd have stopped immediately.FYI for next time I guess. They are also removable and re-usable and rotatable.They cost about $5 per 1/2" cap but well worth having a few on hand and they last forever.JT
best advice yet.
maybe now I'll follow it.
been thinking about having some sharkbite fittings handy ... just in case.
been thinking for for almost a year now.
and I haven't seen a set of vicegrips that'll squeeze seal anything under pressure ...
and beating an old broken pipe with 2x end grain will just make it split again ....
farther back.
shark bites ... best advice so far.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Nice tip Julian. I googled them. They look easy to work with. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
That one is on you. It happened resultant a situation that was in your control.
That is why we have insurance, tho I probably would not pursue a claim for it
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i always keep a shark bite end cap close at hand when troubel may happen on a unknown situation just like you discribe