I design houses. Got this email. What would YOU do?
“We are currently in escrow on about an acre of land located on a sloped hillside/ravine on XXX in YYY, ZZ and are looking for some information on building a single level spherical dome as a living/great room addition to the main house. The main house will be [lots of details]. We are in the early stages of coming up with the design plans for the house and would like to know what the costs would be to build a
# SQ FT dome on this site. The access road is above the site where there is a 30 ft. slope down to the buildable pad that had been previously excavated. Any day now we will receive a soils report and have a topographical map for the site and know the exact builable area. Would the cost of construction (pouring the concrete) be greatly increased due to the site conditions? I read that construction of a dome would cost around $
# SQ/FT. Does that include any rough electrical/plumbing or just for the shell? We would also like [more details]. Is this structurally possible and would the cost of construction greatly increase, aside from the cost of windows? We are also interested in finding information on building [more details] on the site, which will house bedrooms and bathrooms. We are unsure of what is the best way to proceed in regards to the airform process and precast concrete cylinders? Would the cost to support the structural integrity of a cylinder be much greater than in building the dome? How much steel and concrete would be needed to build a
‘ x
‘ cylinder?
We are currently working with an architect [emphasis mine] but are interested in having him collaborate or consult with an architect who has experience in dealing with dome/cylinder construction. Attached are photos of the site, access road, and example of the dome we are interested in building. Any information would be greatly appreciated.”
Replies
How busy are ya?
I'd at least make a return phone call, let me guess they left no contact info besides the e-mail? Anyway I'd at least explore them on the phone for 15 minutes or so then decide how I want to proceed.
My initial impression from that e-mail is that they are 1) excited 2) not very knowledgeable, 3)scared of the cost & 4) not very "design oriented"
I say the last because they seem to be trying to cramp a lot of stuff into a house and maybe you've done it in the past but I can't see a dome marrying up to a standard house in a pleasant manner.
As for working "with their architect" I'm not so sure about that...to me it sounds like they hired someone not able to design what they want.... whoops...
I agree. Telephone or email consult once is free and then tell them from then on out, there is a cost involved with your time.
Sounds like it could be a cool project but I've had those before and they have ended up being just tire-kickers. Glad I didn't spend too much time on those.
50-50 shot.
Mike
>As for working "with their architect" I'm not so sure about that...to me it sounds like they hired someone not able to design what they want.... whoops...For me, this is the part I focused on, perhaps to excess considering all the responses here. If someone is already working with an architect, it feels unprofessional of me to insinuate myself into the situation, even at the owners invitation. If the architect calls, I'd talk to/work with him/her, but in the absence of that, imagine how it will be received if I give the owner advice counter to that of the architect? Someone's gonna be pissed at someone else. Would their architect want to produce a design with me chirping in the owner's ear? Would they want to produce a design with another designer offering them design advice? I wouldn't enjoy it if the situation was reversed--collaborative creative work could easily become a tug-of-war with ideas. Who's in charge, who's responsible, who's liable, etc? The potential for headaches seems high, and the chances of the owner paying a double-design fee slim.How does this play out in other professions:* I need legal advice on blah blah blah. By the way, I already have a lawyer...* I need a builder's advice on costs, methods, etc. By the way, I am already working with a builder...It's one thing for a lawyer, builder, architect to assemble a team, or bring in help as needed. But for the owner to bring in extras behind their back?So, I said they're welcome to have the architect contact me, but until then, I'll defer to that architect as a professional courtesy. I figured any consultation had low probability of success. If I answered their questions in a way that matched the architect's answers, then I'm superfluous. And if I contradict the architect (with the owner's having brought me in, not the architect), then it's not the basis for a constructive relationship. The upside seemed too low probability.
It's one thing for a lawyer, builder, architect to assemble a team, or bring in help as needed. But for the owner to bring in extras behind their back?
Is that fact, or are you assuming that?
It's not unusual for architects to collaborate with outside experts (think structural engineers, civil engineers, etc.) If he collaborates with you, he pays you and bills them and marks you up like a subcontractor.
My advice is to market your expertise at your price. Some see this as being somewhat of a prostitute but I see this as sound business practice. Of course, if you're already booked and don't want the hassle, then politely decline.
Leverage your talents. You won't know where this leads you to, till you get there.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The owner contacted me, not the architect. It's not unusual to collaborate with outside experts--I do that on every project. But those are separate areas--civil and structural engineering are not architectural design. I wouldn't hire one structural engineer and then contact another to ask questions about the same project. I design houses. If they already have someone designing their house, then unless the architect is seeking my advice I'm pretty much in the way. Think the other architect will be receptive to my comments if he was not the one to hire me and already has the contract for design?I don't know if he/she is aware that I was contacted or not. If not, how do you think they'd feel that the owner felt the need to contact me?Make it personal: How would you feel if another framer walked onto one of your jobs dispensing advice to the homeowner?
"Some see this as being somewhat of a prostitute "Which is better - to be a paid prostitute or a free whore?
and - whether to choose your johns or to have a pimp deliver you?
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That is very professional of you.
I had the feeling from my read of this, that they were too focused on prices for an initial contact, trying to phish your brain so they could tell archy on board how to proceed, or to have made decisions based on the briefest of input top dump in poor archies lap.That is why I phrased a responce to do this only when it included the other professional and only when they are willing to pay for my time in what is likely to be a tug of war.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>trying to phish your brain so they could tell archy on board how to proceedIn a nutshell, yeah, that's the fear. Hesitant to invest the time necessary to verify. If true, doesn't seem fair to the architect.
I think I read something different into the original email. I'm thinking that the couple is currently working with an achitect that doesn't have any experience with domed structures. If he did, the basic cost questions might already have been answered.
I understand your concern and I agree, that your suggestion to make it personal gives me the different perspective. I think if the architect that currently is designing the space is not experieced with domes, the reasons behind the inquiry are sound. That would apply to rough framers. If the crew framing that house was a commercial crew, skilled in steel studs and the owner decided that he needed my skills as a consultant, I'd be open to it, providing that the commercial crew also was open to it.
I think I'd spend ten minutes on a phone conversation with this couple and vet out their motivations. You are in control at this time and nothing they do could force you to step on the toes of another designer. I'd probably have a consult with the architect before I had the consult with the owners, even if the owners convinced me that their motivations were pure and the architect was on board.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
The thing is that this archy has not been the one to make the contact with Jim.That tells a lot.
He already knows it borders on a hairbrained idea to mix two different styles so he is probably resistantSure, the customer is always right and if they want t traditional mixed with a domed wing then that is what they will get, good or bad, but it is more likely a set up for somebody to be unhappy.Most architects do not work well in teams, IMO - at least on residential work. To quote one of the best I have ever worked with, "Compromise NEVER works"
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my lawyers are basically real estate and estate planning... if i want a divorce lawyer.. they will get me a referral
a while ago ... i was considering a lawsuit..
my lawyer.. brought me to another lawyer who is a litigator
me, my lawyer.. and the litigator..
all on my dime
... i know lot's architects who bring in specialists for areas outside their expertise
explain to the Homeowners that if their architect wants you in the deal .. you'd be glad to talk to him/ her
an award winning one in town.. designed our police station.. he brought in an architect from Ohio, with a background in prisons and police stations
so now we have a state of the art police station in a victorian body
i see a lot of good comming from you collaborating.. you can get to be the go-to guy for a lot of architects
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/13/2007 7:11 pm ET by MikeSmith
Whoa nellie!You got crime there?Other than Festers I mean...anyhow -I bet the local criminologists call in the FBI if necessary too...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Send an email back to the HO, ask them to have their architect contact you. If he does, then it might work out, and i would spend 30 minutes talking with him. If he does not call, then he was put off by the idea."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
>explain to the Homeowners that if their architect wants you in the deal .. you'd be glad to talk to him/ herThat what I did...said I'd be happy to talk to the architect, but professional courtesy precluded me from saying things in their absence that might contradict them, seeing as they were in possession of more info about the clients, site, budget, etc than I was.
Sounds like they're looking for a consultant, maybe even an educator for their architect. Figure out an hourly rate to offer them. Would you charge them more or less or the same as you regular rate for architectural work?
Dear XZY,
As you are aware, your site and design present many unique challenges and the answers to most of your questions can not be made without greater information and consultation with your chosen architect.
I would be happy to meet with you and with that professional to discuss these questions and to determine whether it is in your best interest to add me to the design team.
Typically my work involves....
My rate for such a consultation is$____
Please call if you would like to schedule such a meeting."
sincerely,
Mr Cloud Hidden
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
jim.. i'd be all over this to at least open the door for the first meeting
the relationship with the architect would be what i am looking for
it might be a collaboration made in heaven ... or something you just want to walk away from
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Absolutely. Doesn't take long to determine prospects. Unless, of course, Cloud already has all the work he wants without collaboration.For instance, I've sent several folks to CH when they expressed interest in a concrete dome. They weren't interested in his above-grade construction, why they were talking to me rather than him. Did need help with the dome, beyond anything I want to know. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Tom, I'll shoot a note to you offline. I do these above, below, and partially below grade. No discrimination. The site typically determines the appropriateness of any approach.
"site typically determines the appropriateness of any approach"Clearly for PAHS not, but you've expressed your opinion before. Not unlike Monolithic's, who did the Baker's engineering (I assume that's who you were talking about). "No discrimination"? You've manifestly expressed it. Not a problem. We all have bias.These folks were wanting to buy architectural services from someone. I'm not offering. You seem to do well with your clients. As you know, domes aren't one of those things most are equivocal about. It's convenient for me to send whomever to your web site with a small explanation how I know you. If it works out, great.I'm sure you too hear from a lot of tire kickers. "Talk big, think small, do nothing." Works best to keep the talk short.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
>Clearly for PAHS not, but you've expressed your opinion before. Not unlike Monolithic's, who did the Baker's engineering (I assume that's who you were talking about).I have no idea who the Bakers are. I don't have clients or even a contact with anyone by that name.At the risk these will read as a challenge, they are not. They are sincere questions about the appropriateness of PAHS in circumstances that I would guess to be non-typical for the methodology.How does one do PAHS on a 50' wide by 100' deep flat lot next to other's like it? Can one get enough soil depth and coverage for proper heat storage? Is there enough raw space for the recommended umbrella?How does one do PAHS on a place like Surfside Beach, TX, where all houses are on stilts to guard against the inevitability of storm surge? Or any area with a high water table?How does one do PAHS on the north-facing slope of a mountain, or deep in a gorge that gets but a couple of hours of direct sunlight on a good day? That would seem to violate the guidelines on glazing for solar gain.
May just be the trailblazer in me but Cloud--you are doing a highly specialized thing. There's a handfull of people who are trying to do what you do with varying results. The reason you are good at what you do is part genius and part experience.
So long as the architect involved approves of the collaboration, state your rates and start billing. The more often you do this--the higher your professional esteem. Sure--deliver your advice through the architect, but don't refuse to work with them.
I really believe that architects in general seem to be hyper sensetive to criticism. That doesn't help them build better. It is through collaborations that the truly spectacular happens.
I work tight with a landscape architect. I trust him and we criticise the he11 out of each other without bruised egos. My attitude is that it is simply part of learning--sooner we get criticisms out of the way the more brilliant our work is.
If non-competition, non-criticism, comfortable bubble clad interactions with clients is professionalism--who needs it.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Jim, the Bakers said they were "probably" going to hire you to finish what Monolithic engineered. Perhaps they hired another Monolithic designer. Or perhaps they've done nothing. Last I heard, couple of weeks ago, they were expecting Monolithic's engineering any day. I was curious to see it.
I'm not directly involved with the project. Mostly I explained how an umbrella is installed. They were confused. A dome is more difficult for the retaining walls than anything I've done, but manageable. Before them, I'd never understood that the Monolithic method had a way to go insulation-less. You hadn't mentioned it. I was happy to learn that option.
Regarding your other questions, only the stilts house is a much of a challenge. Annual heat storage isn't necessarily about solar gain, particularly not direct solar gain.
I'm reasonably certain you've never read Hait's book, from your misunderstanding of the concept. To get Annual Heat Storage, one only must retain enough heat to last through the heating season. Or, alternatively, enough "coolth" to last through the cooling season. The Passive part is the beauty. Nothing to maintain, worry about an emergency generator for, or ever deal with again. If you are already starting with efficient structures, the storage needn't be large. All depends on the btus involved, not so much where they come from. It's the concept, not the architecture. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I used to work with a gentleman from England--three careers ago--and one day I came across the phrase "England and America, two countries separated by a common language". I feel that way here sometimes. But I do assume that everyone has honest and proper motivations and I hope they assume that of me.As I said, I've never spoken to people named Baker. I have spoken with a woman who bakes, he's a farmer. They want to do PAHS. Also someone who knows someone who knows Jim Bakker, but they aren't talking PAHS. MDI doesn't do engineering, but if engineering has already been done, then there's nothing for me or anyone else to finish. One can do uninsulated shells. Never been much of a call for them. I always assumed that was the way to do PAHS, and if I never mentioned it here, it was not an intentional omission. Precious few prospective clients ever had an interest in an earth covering in any form, and only two thus far have ever been serious enough to commission an earth-sheltered design, so it's a largely-unexplored option. MDI's position, as you're probably aware, is that energy costs for above ground are so small that there's no payback for the excavation and other work one would have to do to earth shelter a house. It should not be assumed that I share that opinion. I'm aware that a number of people do share their opinion, but I'm officially non-commital. I'd love to see the two projects I mentioned come to fruition--one directly insulated, the other not--be/c they're the same size and similar climate and it'd be useful to compare their experiences. No conclusions until there's data.If I do that project, the first thing on my list is Hait's book. Until then, without a real client, it's moot. I don't talk clients into concepts--won't try to convince an ICF person to switch to thin shell, won't try to convince PAHS to go non-PAHS, or non-PAHS to go PAHS. Too much work, too much opportunity for regrets (buyer's remorse). I work with clients already convinced of a direction, and endeavor to make that work best for them. The intent, pending what I read in Hait, is an uninsulated shell with the insulation umbrella covering dry earth. I've always intended that if there was an opportunity. Apologies if that was not communicated. Not expecting retaining walls to be problematic.Lastly for now, as regards the appropriateness of PAHS in the listed situations, when I write of needing to see a site before determining what's appropriate, I guess that's just a place where I make a personal choice. It's something I'd say about ANY house. I've concluded that a thin shell was inappropriate in places and turned down work as a result. There are places where any concept works less well than others. It's not a slight against PAHS, just a general comment that I don't design without knowing the property, and not all properties will work for what's intended. With PAHS, the stilt one stood out. But I've read a reference to PAHS that said to avoid high water table areas (it was a pro-PAHS site). Also saw that in such a situation the house should be build above grade and then covered (http://www.earthshelters.com/Other_water.html), but that's not as easy as with a water table that isn't high, and would be more problematic on a small lot. Speaking of which, the neighboring development here has lots so small that with a 2000 sf single family house, you can literally reach from window to window to get a cup of sugar from a neighbor. Just horrid. I certainly wouldn't put a thin shell there (and covenants would likely preclude it), and I do not understand how one could do enough earth sheltering or have an umbrella spread enough to be effective for PAHS. Maybe the book will explain.Likewise, WNC has a lot of gorges. Spoke to someone building now in the Nantahala Gorge. As you mention, it all depends on the btus involved (agreed). It's so deep that the name itself means "land of the noonday sun" because of the lack of direct sun. There's much less opportunity to gather and store btus there than just outside of the gorge. If you store fewer btus, then you have fewer to draw from in winter, and a lower core temp. Yes? No? Wouldn't that make a totally passive solution more difficult than at a better site not in the gorge?
Cloud, let me add to my previous reply.
If you spent as much time giving some advice or guidance to this potential client as you have here discussing what you should do, you'd be done already.
Give them some basic advice and then add that you can consult them on this project in a more detailed manner if they are insterested.... and that they can call to make arrangements.
I think this aludes to your being availble for hire without sounding so cheap and unprofessional as to say something like, "here's the basics but I can tell you more for $$$ per hour".
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
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maybe it's the pessimist in me (keep meaning to see a doctor about that) . . .
They sound like flakes. A lot of complex questions that would take a fair amount of time to explain (at no cost to them), which would probably result in more rounds of similar questions. Maybe it's what they're not saying that seems like a red flag. Nothing about why they've decided to go this route. What they like about dome construction. Any examples they've seen, and what really grabbed them.
And the fact that they're combining two very different designs (not to mention construction types) seems to show a lack of something. Respect for the architect maybe? An understanding of the complexity involved? It almost reads like they're not just lacking knowledge, but they're masking naivete with logistics. Which could affect everything down the road.
A simple response like Piffin suggested would be good. I suspect that once a dollar figure for your time is involved, they may change their minds.
I get the impression the HO is just fishing for answers if only to verify what the contracted archy has told them. they sound a little desparate like their life savings is in peril. they just might have no serious intentions with you other than to pick your brain. what are they going to ask for next, your subcontractor list?
I think I would proceed very carefully and be sure I got paid a professional rate for every tidbit of information
I'd say to give them some basics that they could use to make decisions upon. You don't need to educate them on every bit of minutia realtive to your business but general advice would seem appropriate.
When you're this good, EVERYONE wants a crack at you!
http://www.petedraganic.com/
2 years ago I turned down a 2 1/2 M home for a large commercial HVAC contractor in my area at the final meeting to sign the contract. While my situation was a little different, I agree with your point. At the signing the owner introduced his "professional construction consultant". I told him I assumed he chose me on my merits and I handled and was responsible for the entire building process. That he had the design architect to monitor me and I wasn't interested in the job or a critic, without a stake in the project, other than to knock me.
I didn't get the job. The "professional consultant" was a friend attorney who had just built a big home and the contractor who did get the job is now broke and running carpenter work for a competitor.
Hard to pass on, but sounds like a need for "economical" advice for work they don't have the skills or experience to tackle and if anything goes wrong, I'll guarantee you'll be proximately mentioned. Approach with care.