Putting this out as sort of a case study, a home around the corner from my sister’s house that is in a historic district was to have some work done. This is the wording from the actual permit all permits/ inspection records are online line in our town for public viewing, as are tax records for anyone in town. So the information I am posting is public knowledge have an address anyone can look it up.
This project is for the razing of the rear portion of an existing single family dwelling; lifting the remaining structure to allow for the excavation and placement of a new 1093s.f. basement, 486s.f. of added area to the rear main level on a typical foundation and an addition of 784s.f. of upper level. There are new code complying stairs throughout. R1CH ok per DRH07-00485 by Julie Archambeault. Separate electrical, plumbing, mechanical and ESC permits are required. A performance bond is required at $3.50 per s.f. being $5000.00. All per the approved plans as marked REScheck and the plan review notes. pep
Okay, this is what happened;
1. MY sisters and her family go away then come back and the house in question is knocked down, I was at her house working while it happened.
2. They excavate and set footing for a full basement.
3. Footing forms inspected footing is poured.
4. Foundation forms set inspect poured.
5. Framing starts is 90 % complete project gets Red Tagged.
Why read for your selves.
BLD-Conference 3/14/2008 3/14/2008 3/14/2008 P PASS David Hannah
ok to finish roof sheeting and dry in roof but must resubmit plans
Stop Work Order 3/10/2008 3/10/2008 3/10/2008 FAIL
I received an email this morning from Planner Julie Archambeault stating that she believed that the contractor on this project may have exceeded BLD07-02865 by demolishing the entire structure. I conducted an inspection at 0945 and found that this allegation was true – and spoke with the on-site construction crew. They stated that the original house was removed in December 07, and the basement and footings were in place by the first week in January 08. None of the original residence remains. I contacted Julie and told her what I found, and she requested that I issue a Stop Work order immediately. I drove back to the site and did issue an SW order, and the crew shut down all work and did remain for about 30 minutes to clean up the site. I also called the architect on the project, Kenneth Reed, 343-3—, and told him about the stop work order. He said he will contact Julie and discuss what needs to be done going forward. I am finding no demolition permit (although one would not have been approved for this historic district residence); The stop work order says that the scope of BLD07-02865 has been exceeded. I left a message with Julie at 1205 hrs telling her the order has been issued and all work has been stopped until further notice. I will put my pix in the file later today. The owner of this site is Jessie Hamilton at 373-3—
Case Summary (BLD) 3/10/2008 DONE
Meeting 3/10/2008 DONE
meeting with Ken Reed and Bruce Chatterton on stop work by planning.
BLD-Foundation 2/7/2008 2/7/2008 2/7/2008 P PASS
David Hannah
Scheduled by a contractor via Hello! on 2/7/2008 at 8:44:58 AM. Contact: (208) 695-1097.
BLD-Footing 2/5/2008 2/5/2008 2/5/2008 P PASS
David Hannah
Scheduled by a contractor via Hello! on 2/5/2008 at 11:01:32 AM. Contact: (208) 695-1097.
Routing Walk-In (Zoning) 11/5/2007 11/5/2007 11/5/2007 A PASS
Override – Parcel Holds 11/5/2007
Issue PAID IN FULL permit 11/5/2007 DONE
Application received 11/2/2007
Routing Walk-In (BLD) 11/2/2007 11/2/2007 11/2/2007 A DONE
11/2/2007 11:25:26 PEP – activity updated through activity BLDA022 from case BLD07-02865.
Case Summary (BLD) 11/2/2007
Inspection Record Card- Bld 11/2/2007
PLANS/APPL TAKEN TO FRONT DESK 11/2/2007 DONE
What would happen in your town with the inspectors you know? Note the footing inspection passed.
Wallyo
edited phone numbers
Edited 3/20/2008 3:20 pm ET by wallyo
Replies
Similar situation happened in my town a couple years ago. Historical district home. Owners file for permit to remove/renovate part of structure, after being told they can't demo and replace whole thing due to district issues. Partial project is ok'd. Builder "accidentally, mistakenly" demos too much. Gee, now we have to take it all down.
Owners get away with it after much legal wrangling. Neighborhood hates them and city. Pathetic city council contemplates $10k fine for illegal demos. Yeah right. Big problem to pay $10k when illegal demo will allow $2M home to be built on site with likely $300k profit minimum.
What would our BD do? Precious little. Stop work order, wait for lawyers, permit new project, forget it ever happened.
I was the site supervisor for a gut rehab of an inner city duplex in the Roxbury neighborhood of Boston in 1984. The project was being done by a local Catholic Church which ran a family shelter and had great difficulty finding permanent affordable homes for their clients.
So when the city put this tax-foreclosed and arsoned property up for bid, an associate pastor bought it and convinced the church to renovate it. The non-profit I worked for was brought in to oversee the renovation.
Before I got there, the church organized a cleanup weekend for church volunteers to take out all the trash and remove plaster and lathe.
They got fined a double permit fee for "demolition without a permit". So much for charity and good works!
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
wallyo,
Well I went thru the whole thing.. different circumstances. I was told that I could do this and when they stopped me, suddenly "we never said that"..
They wanted me to tear down what had already been built and threatened legal action if I failed to comply.. The daily fine would have quickly bankrupted China. It would have made my house silly and not functional.
I went running around seeking legal help, seeking support, etc.. Years go by and the person who had changed his mind on the whole issue was adamant. t Went back to city hall talked the planning commission into approving what I'd done and wanted to do.. City council however wanted to teach me a lesson.. Luckily a new employee was sent out to do the grunt work of preliminary condemnation etc.. I spoke with her and explained my dilemma. Suspicious of me, she went back into the files and found record of what had been agreed upon. Something previously hidden that had by mistake been left in the file (all previous records had disappeared)
It was a very near thing and I got chewed out by everyone. plus I had to compromise on what had been agreed upon but at least I got a workable house out of it.. The final compromise was a little chicken shi1 deal just to have the last say.
However the house is up! I won. Took me 19 years and an insane amount of time and energy.
Lawyers won't really help.. politics won't help if they don't want to. Records and new politicians were what saved me..
the nearest one would have stopped the work and taken them to court
there would be an empty lot there for years
i hate Historic Districts... they definitely suck
same old people on a power trip
zoning... planning... historic.. conservation.... you name it .. just a bunch of people that want nothing more than to tell the owner why they can't do what they want
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike Historic district aside they never got a demo permit which would of been needed. On top of it appears had two different plan sets one to submit the other to build from.Wallyo
This situation obviously bothers you very much.I'm just curious, why?The guy is busted, he's going to have to jump through a lot of hoops now, probably have to pay a substantial fine. And then what? Do you think he should be forced to tear down what he has built?Looks to me like he hasn't hurt property values, he may have raised them.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I happened to be a two block down when they tore the house down and kept wondering when they would be caught, I thought it would of been sooner. I knew because they had no demo permit posted. I am not bothered, just amused, and trying to predict what the out come will be, It just does not happen that often around here. I just keep laughing a little to myself and shaking my head. As David Letterman said to Hugh Grant "Just what were you thinking".There is a small business section in the north end, it has been there for 100 years, it is in the right in the middle of a residential area. One house in the middle of it, it had no original character left, it had been turned into 3 or four apartments. The owner wanted to knock it down and build something very fitting. Everyone started screaming and yelling, committees were formed to save it you know the drill. It took that poor guy 1 year to come up with a how to save it plan that please all, construction has been going on for 2 years they are still not done. But to his credit he is playing the game by the rules.The other reason I started the post is people don't think they will be caught when it come to not obtaining a permit etc. it can happen. I think they will lose their bond and first permit fee and have to pay a new permit fee. Aside from that I do think it is a lot better then what was there a little too tall and if I were the neighbor on the right I might have some complaints especially if the approved plans might of had a shorter roof line. I would of brought it closer to the street which they could of. Aside from that it looks like a good design. Just on a foot note the assessed value of the old house was 292,000. The owners just brought it so they paid close to that, the assessor here is real good at keeping their assessments close to market value.If there are fines who pays them GC, architect, Home owner, demo guy?Wallyo
Edited 3/21/2008 9:44 pm ET by wallyo
The house does not fit in that neighborhood, but is an improvement over what was there.
I think that historical districts get carried away.
From the look of former house, I can"t see any historical signifigence at all.
"From the look of former house, I can"t see any historical signifigence at all."Who knows - maybe Monica slept there once...Histyoric restrictions can apply two ways. one is to individual structures if the owners or others with an interest and right apply to list it.
The other is when Historic district is created and the house lot just happens to fall within that. In that case, there are genrally ways to work within the districts rules to effect something like this if the house itself has nothing peculiarly historic about it.
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speaking from my experience, I think they were probably put in the district.
I htink around her they wuold make them tear the roof off, and put a lower slope roof on.
From the price of the permits, they should have had an inspector on the
job every day.
Personal peave. Local municipalities trying to make a profit on their building permits.
State law here restricts the community to assessing fees for permits to maximum of the average amount it costs to administer them.but it is hard to track that since a department can be loaded up with other duties in the budgetary process.
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another law with good intentions but no way to enforce
With out measuring the thing its hard to tell. But believe it or not the house sits on two lots. In that area of town a original lot was 25' wide 120' plus or minus deep, when they went for sale you could buy one or more, might of been a block with 9 one bought 4 the other 4 and one odd duck in the middle. They could of gotten two houses there. I think that is some of the reason why it is placed to the left side. As to height if it is consider to be on one lot they could go 18' tall, if on 2 lots 35' tall I think, would need to look at the maps. Now I don't know how height is measured elsewhere, here it is the midpoint from the tallest ridge to the bottom roof edge.I think that is why it is story and a half tall as the city would call it, they where shooting for the 18 feet. Remember the right of the street is south east so the house cuts out a lot of Solar gain to the house on the left. Hey they left the trees at least.Wallyo
Forgiveness after the fact didn't work for one guy on Skanneattlas(sp) lake neaer Syracuse NY.
Not a historic area, but this lawyer applied for permit, turned down, built it anyways.
Town took him to court, told to tear down.
Anyways, the town toar the whole house down, last time I was bye the lot it was still empty.
The point of this story is, around here the historical areas are the place
where the politically connected wives donate their time.
Well this creates a situation where they get what they want, no matter the cost.
When I was chair of the Planning Bd here, the idea was floated three times to add some historic districting. I stood in the way and let it fall by the wayside each time.I measure the success of my tenure as chairperson by the number of things I prevented more than how much I accomplished
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Ditto what you said Mike.
Historic Preservation Council here has the same power that the SS did in #### Germany back during the 30's and 40's.
If they catch you working on unapproved tasks on your OWN home, they will have your meter pulled within the half-hour.
Our "money pit" house misses the district by 3 lots.
We are however, in the Federal Registry which gets us up to 40% tax breaks IF we do certain things. They'd have to do better that 40 for me to get in bed with 'em.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Just an update work is stop and they now have to go to the historic district on April 14 and;"Request Historic Preservation approval to modify their previous application for a
partial demolition and addition to be for a full demolition and rebuild on property
located in an R-2H (Combined Residential with Historic Overlay) zone."Just as a side bar some historic districts are notorious for dictating what can be done, down to approving paint colors by having layers analyzed to determine the first color ever put on the house, and then that is what must be used. Districts in New England are like that.Our District is not too bad over all, the business district I earlier discussed was pushed by outside forces, to preserve (the neighbor association and not the city). The district is more concerned with appearances from the street view then what can't be seen. Bad if you own a house on a corner. I had to replace two five panel swing out doors on a one car garage, high visibility from the street convinced them a 8 panel overhead door achieved the same flavor, was a go. Some HO Associations are worst then our historic district!One last note the homes were first then the district, but these people bought the house knowing the district was in place for several years.Wallyo
there are two wild cards that you provide no information for background on this...
One is what the historic district rules and scope of authority are
The other is what limitations would have applied under local AHJ if they had originally submitted a plan to totally raze instead of to raise and reno.
There are and can be a multitude of reasons for various restrictions to be in place and require enforcement. If the permit was obtained fraudulently or with the appearance of that, to skirt the rules, then the penalties would be very very harsh.
RE the original Q, the officials here go by the letter of the law 99% of the time. That simplifies things and keeps them out of hot water. better to boil someone elses pot than to jump in the hot tub yourself
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The district is pretty serious, to change windows or a front door you need permission. I know of one person that is a friend of a friend and has gone through three plan revisions and still was having issues for and addition that I think was to be one story.To raze they would of needed to prove that structure wise the house was unsound or that it was no historic value. This area is the east end (houses from 1919), the north end (houses from 1900) has been a historic district longer. Then two blocks from this house several years ago a small shack was torn down and a big 2 story modern box house was built occupied the whole lot to the back sets and caused much up roar. It just did not fit in modern, flat roof, corrugated steel, type thing, (owner has moved out of town and its been for sale for over a year) neighborhood complained East end became a historic district.What gets me is the footing and foundation was inspected and passed. Why didn't the inspector say where is the house you lifted at that point? WallyoAs you will see the new looks nothing like the old. Sorry to all could not figure how to down size or up size the photos.WallyoWallyo
Looked at your picture, and I had to laugh.It doesn't show the "character" of the neighborhood, but that house looks very very bland. Certainly unlike anything in a "Historic District" in my part of Ohio.And those jalousie windows flanking that half wagon wheel light on the front door. Certainly wouldn't want to mess with those historic features for gawd's sake.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
I should of described the neighborhood it is filled with 1900's craftsmen bungalows, I never said the house was historic I pointed out it was remuddled.If someone wants here is a real cool thing Google did this in the summer they took pictures with a van and 360 degree cameras drove down almost every street in town about 80% of them. it is on the web and you can drive down the block from your house in Wadsworth. Only one of four cities they did.http://maps.google.com/?q=900%20e%20bannock%20boise%20idaho&t=h&utm_campaign=en_US&utm_medium=ha&utm_source=en_US-ha-na-us-gns-ssm&utm_term=addIf the link does not work go to Google map.
type in 900 E bannock boise idahoClick on STREET VIEW either upper right corner or on the picture you will get a insert use those controlsDrive your car down the street the house that is in question is on the North side of the street between Elm and Maple there is a black car in front about 948 e Bannock Use the arrows at top left to spin your car around the arrows on the street to go forward and reverse.This will give you a feel for the neighborhood the other house I wrote about is 800 block on the south side of the block on the corner white landscape truck near it about 826 e Bannock.If you want a really cool street go the next block over to Warmsprings Ave take a look at the Moore Mansion on the corner of Walnut and Warmsprings Look for the Bat lamp post on the lawn. it would be south side of the street. Harrison is another good drive. With out flying you here it is the best feel of the neighborhood you can get.Wallyo
Edited 3/21/2008 1:14 am ET by wallyo
Hi Wallyo, my uncle use to live on Hill Road and had a small farmstead in the 50-60's and got zoned out when the condos move in.
Am coming down for a family reunion in August at Horseshoe Bend. Lots of relatives around there.
Jim
Jim I am not to far from there off of Collister, just curious what is your uncle's last name, I am a jersey boy but married to a 4 generation Idahoan.Wallyo
I am the only child of a second marriage. My mothers maiden name was Cushman, other clan members are Stoops, Charters, Farmer and Savola. My mothers first husband (Ernest Stoops) was Chief of the Police in late 30's.
Our side of the family (Flood) left the area in 1950 went to the Oregon coast and then migrated to Alaska in 1960 where I have been pretty much ever since.
My last surviving (half) sister is celebrating her 80th Birthday at Horseshoe Bend in August. She was the postmaster their for years. She and her kids just sent me a couple of hundred copies of old family photos. I for the first time saw photos of my mom when she was about 17. Way cool.
Jim
My guess regarding the footing inspections is that the inspector did not look at the plans. S/he merely looked at the footings to see that they were the proper depth/width whatever and passed them.This is one reason plans are supposed to be available for the inspectors, and why things have to be built to the approved plan.
If the building wasn't to be torn down, where did the prints (permit?) for the foundation come from? Somehow they knew what to build.Rich
Byran here is another bit of info the fees paid for a walk in plan exam, they walked in on 11/2 paid fee on 11/5. Fees are paid after approval, Remember first set was for lifting house new foundation addition at rear partial second story. Some where between then and 2/5 (footings) up pops another set of plans. Remember they also are using an architect who by all means should know better.Energy Code fee 11/5/2007 $27.56
Payment 11/5/2007 ($27.56)
Payment 11/5/2007 ($322.21)
Bld-Res-Pln chk 2002 11/5/2007 $322.21
Bld Final & Audit Prmt Fee 02 11/5/2007 $1,611.04
Payment 11/5/2007 ($1,611.04)
Total Fees:
Total Amount Paid:
Total Amount Due: $1,960.81
($1,960.81)
$0.00Wallyo
Edited 3/21/2008 11:37 am ET by wallyo
I'm still just guessing, but my guess is the plans looked at on 2/5 by the inspector (if they were looked at at all) was not the plans with the approval stamp on them. I would think this inspector missed the boat.Not as badly as that crane inspector in N.Y., but s/he missed something with regard to the plans.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Thank you for doing that for me Rez it helps a bunch I tried for about 30 minutes to scale it down. I used I photo I got one down sized then lost it and could not do it again.Thank youWallyo
No problem. Just get 'em up here and someone can downsize.
Peach full,easy feelin'.
Simmilar thing happened locally. Part of one wall that was supposed to stay got demoed and project got red tagged. Lots of lawyer bills later project continued with a very sizable donation to local affordable housing (1 bedroom apartment I believe).
Code changed after that though, now GC and Owner go to jail on the spot and fines are far bigger.
Rob
I might post a before. need to see if one can be lifted off the county site and will get an after picture later tonight. But this is past that, the framing is almost completed. Then it got red flagged.
Edited 3/20/2008 8:03 pm ET by wallyo
I'd just tell them someone stole the last wall. Or, I'd tell them I took the precious, historical wall to a safe location and I'd be bringing it back once the jobsite was more secure. I'd even drag an old beat up framed wall with nails and wires dragging into the city council meeting to prove that I saved it. Then, I'd move it into the attic and use it for lacer material. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You killing me!
Think were all going to be Historic soon!
i have to post, what they did by razing may well be in violation of the spirit of, and the letter of the law. however...
as long as they rebuild with architechturally compatible structure in proportion to the original neighborhood who suffers?
in other words why are there stupid rules to prevent a logical and sensible outcome?
I agree somewhat you will see in a bit i am working on those pictures. I do admit that the house did not have original character, it was remuddled in the 70, some where buried may be some original flavor. But bear in mind the houses on either side are single story, the roof line is the tallest on the block. They never got a demo permit which is needed.
It's usually easier to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
That is what I think, very well put. question is how much does forgiveness cost?Wallyo
Yup. That's the question.
I've been in this business for 35 yrs. and I have never seen anyone have to tear down a bootleg job.
I have seen partial tear downs when setback requirement violations couldn't be worked out.
John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
Edited 3/21/2008 8:04 am ET by Svenny
The funny thing is if it were you or I we'd be caught and have to pay out so much $s it bankrupt us. It seems when it is some one else it appears to be a slap, but then you or I would probably play by the rules.Did you get to take the virtual drive? Even if you can't find the house (the link should work) it is neat technology.Wallyo
as long as forgiveness costs less than permission yer good to go!
"as long as forgiveness costs less than permission yer good to go"!SegundoThat is the way it looks. To allTwo other thing I though of today, If they had a mortgage wonder what the bank is thinking " Uh, what happened to our house"?Another question I had is when does a person from the out side step in. I don't live in that area, do a lot of work around there and own a lot up the hill in that section of town it is all in the same school boundary. But if one knows that someone does not have proper permits when is it your duty to report it. I figured I don't live on the block it is for the neighbors to mount a complaint, but in hindsight if I called on that first day may have saved someone some grief maybe or money. So do you step in when it is the house next to you, your block, neighborhood, town or do nothing and let or hope the powers that be figure it out, also how big of a violation do you let slide? But what I also want to hear is opinions of what has happened or could happen in other towns or opinions on how this will play out if anyone has more.Wallyo
I think I might have tryed to talk to the contractor, to give him a heads up
"as long as forgiveness costs less than permission yer good to go"!SegundoThat is the way it looks. "I don't see it that way.For instance, around here, one reason somebody might purposely try this trick is if the house is located in a spot on the lot where it could not be permitted to build under current ordinances, it earns grandfathered status by leaving it there, or leaving the foundation or a wall or whatever while rebuilding.
The sense of the rule is that a person is not required to go to great expense of entirely rebuilding or moving a structure to meet modern rules for the lot. It is a concession to budgetary reality.But people do take advantage and push that to the limits. Sounds like what was in action in your neighborhood from your description. maybe the 'historical' part is the restriction rather than the locational aspect, but it does sound like intentionally skirting the rule.one where I would step in and offer advice is iof somebody were beginning to tear down a structure with no permit first on a lot that is restricted. A lot of people might assume they can tear down without the permit, which is true here legally, but once that grandfathered status is removed, it is lost forever. Getting the new permit to build again falls under the new rules.
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i was posting with a purely financial viewpoint, the debate about whether or not it should have been allowed is entirely another matter, which i also feel pretty strongly about.
i admire your thinking you did a good job chairing when you limit restriction by the zoning board, i am of the same mind. it would have to be a pretty darn good reason to get me to vote for not letting someone do what they want with their property.
talk about a violation of rights!
There are good reasons. Most of them based on health, safety and maintaining property values.
When they get to trying to dictate type of window or colour of paint, they get a battle from me.'course, on the other hand, I know of a purple house down the road here I feel like burning down every time I see that gaudy ocular insult
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wallyo,
I had a similar situation, I told the credit union I intended to tear down the house and they shrugged and said the land would be worth more vacant than with the old house on it.
Frenchy probably close to the truth in this case, the county assessor sees the lot at 100,000 the old house and garage at 191,000. I would of fought that one. I think the funny part is they now have to go and ask permission to tear down what they have already torn down.Wallyo
wallyo,
Yeh! They will now make everybody jump thru every hoop they can think of.. Just to teach you who's boss..