Replies

1. 
   Jay_Malaspino | Apr 08, 1999 05:25am | #6

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   J.D.

   In my part of the country a project manager manages superintendents. Typically in a commercial construction company the superintendents are the ones who sit in the trailer while the project managers usually run from the main office 3-6 of the jobs the superintendents are running. Supers for commercial work or big time residential supers make min. $40,000. I did the commercial ratrace for 6 years and there is no such thing as a commercial contractor who pays all their bills. How can you run a job when the subs are not getting paid? When you find out let me know maybe I'll go back to it. For now drawing residential house plans is alot less stressful.

   I once worked under a super who didn't leave the job for lunch, EVER. I finally asked him once why he didn't leave and he said - the last time I left for lunch some of the guys worked through it (commercial job). When I got back one of the guys had fallen off the roof and landed on a piece of rebar. Not pretty. It takes a smooth talker and someone with a certain attitude to be either a super or p.m. Stress that makes an air traffic controller job look like a walk in Disneyworld.

   Jay Malaspino

1. 
   Johnny_M | Apr 08, 1999 05:40am | #7

   *First off, Mike why don't you take a flying leap. We're the "bureaucrats that don't make anything but get paid handsomely"? Give me a freakin break. I don't know what the P.M.'s do in your neck of the woods, but around Mass. we run the whole show. We are responsible for everything that goes into a job, scheduling subs and materials, maintaining the schedules AND bringing the job in on or under budget. Oh, and in between we listen to whining little primadonna carpenters like you because we have nothing else better to do. Nothing personal.

2. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 06:12am | #8

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   Evening Jay,

   I don't know what part of the country you're in, but in the real world of commercial project management, the Project Manager does not and I repeat, does not manage superintendents. A superintendent that requires managing is an unemployed super.

   A super, runs the day to day activities on a jobsite and is only concerned with the jobsite.

   The Project Manager keeps control of the business end of the project (budgets, schedules, cash flow, tendering, contracts, legal matters etc. and keeps Architect, Engineers and owners out of the super's face, so he can do his job.

   Having been both, I can assure you, each requires absolute knowledge of the industry, but the responsibilities are as different as night and day.

   J.D. as cruel as it may seem, to you, in saying this, but, if you have to ask, you're not ready to be a Project Manager yet. If you were ready to be one, you WOULD know what the rate of pay was!

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 06:44am | #9

   *Wow wee, keep it going boys, this is shaping up to be a real slapfest.In my neck of the woods, const. mgmt. positions are paid on the low end--PM +/- $33K to start, with 15 years experience. This is because one of the top arch. schools in the nation is in my back yard. They keep churning 'em out.I've interviewed with several companies over the years and I am always amazed to see the young 20-somethings running (!) the show. Constant turnover, but never a raise in salary.J.D.: if you decide to take the job, don't forget the Rolaids.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 07:24am | #10

   *Kewl, I seem to have touched a nerve. Sp project managers have nothing better to do than listen to whining; I didn't think so. What makes you think I am a carpenter, primadonna or otherwise? You can take yourself as seriously as you want but don't take me that way.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 07:41am | #11

   *The grass always looks greener... Having done site super jobs, and pm commercial jobs, both have their advantages and harassels. As of late, with the hard time engineers and architects have had finding work...(because of jerks like me, doing our own plans), they tend to take jobs that they may indeed be ill suited for such as pm, or estimators. Rightly so, they look upon it as paying the bills and gaining useful site experience. It has become an additional part of apprenticeship for architects. Some of the best architects I have had the pleasure of working with have gone this route and indeed made a pittance doing it. JD, I would suggest taking a break for a while if you need it. I've taken the odd one myself, once doing sales, and once operating equipment. This brings a fresh outlook. Think about edging in and entering as a site super and working up to the PM position if you are still still interested. This will increase your value and let you keep your stick in the fire.Enjoy your vacation...either way.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 08:06am | #12

   *B'wana? Like in the old "African Hunter" type movies.

2. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 08:20am | #13

   *Johnny, seems a bit peevish of a reply, and without good cause... think about it.If a project is managed well, all goods and services coordinated as perfectly as possible, then the project manager is viewed as a overpaid bureaucrat, who does nothing, and makes a ton of money for it.Then there's the other side of the equation... the "overworked, underpaid" project manager, who has to be all over the job, hands on, fighting the good fight, with testy Teamsters, miffed Masons, PMS'd Plumbers, exacerbated Electricians, and crabby Carpenters. Prima Donnas? Save that for the Owners, Architects, and Inspectors thank you. All because there's been a lack of planning, too many changes without a full scale review, and poor overall coordination and management.Mike may have seen the former... many of us have seen the latter.

3. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 08:23am | #14

   *Mostly I'm looking for a break, I'm now not sure this is a good one to take. I know the grass is greener on the other side and I could guess a reasonable ballpark for pay, I just wanted to make sure that I wouldn't sell myself short. I've just been having a couple of tough months (lots of work, seems like little return) mostly my fault. Then I pick up the want ads for the first time in a long time and they have benefits, vacations, 401k's and I have to put tires on the truck.It's the same old story, different guy.

4. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 08:40am | #15

   *It's always darkest before dawn. Hang in there.

5. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 10:43am | #16

   *Ooh, ooh, Young Bob brings up a point, perhaps unintentional on his part. I did hang in there for awhile, waiting for the sun to rise.Meanwhile, the years go by, things change...blah, blah, blah. So, when does a guy call it quits or otherwise change tacks? Seems to me all the biz books repeat the magic 5 year number. So, you hang in there by the skin of your teeth for years while you advertise, sell jobs, build a golden reputation, etc. What happens when you wake up one year to find it's year eight and you're not much further along than 4 years ago? One of my good friends is a cabinet maker. If you want good cabs, you go to Danny. But, the thing is, this is his 16th year and it is also the first year the business has made a profit. It is also the first year he feels fully confident in his crew. Is this a cause for celebration? Or is it because he is riding along on the big boom in business? A guy's gotta' ask himself, do I feel lucky today? Well, punk, do ya'?

6. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 11:00am | #17

   *I don't think anyone should "white knuckle" anything, least of all their profession. If you can identify a cause of bigtime stress - do what you have to do to relieve it - take a break - or flat out make a change. But you got to follow your heart. There are a lot of reasons to get out of any business. But if you like what you do most of the time, and you get most of your financial needs met, that's reason enough to stick it out until you're sure you need a change. Just one mans opinion.

7. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 03:38pm | #18

   *How does it go?Smile, things could be worse.So I smiled and behold, things did get worse.

8. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 04:39pm | #19

   *Whoa! What's with the business dulldrums. This has to be tax season. Let me propose a new way to guage when to throw in the towel...not just for JD. If #1 there comes a time when you are working harder and making less and after careful contemplation(time limit by you), you cannot fathom why. If your standard of living is suffering. If you are not meeting your goals for the long term by any stretch of the imagination. If you can't possibly imagine the business being a sucess. If all these conditions are true, consider other options. A career that makes one unhappy is not worth it at any cost. My situation, Gunning for the long term I expected my business to take 5 years to establish...typical goal...upscale renovations co. I did that, lost money for 3 of 5 years and landed that big job, 2 years on site after which, I didn't have a (real company), any more, no leads. It was time to make a decision, another 5 year plan, which changed twice since then. If you are in business you need a realistic plan which will change daily! Times change, Economies change, Markets change, What sells one day..is a hopeless cause the next. JD has a plan and will be back, "If he indeed gets the job".

9. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 05:06pm | #20

   *Unsolicited advice...do as that now famous Oscar winning Italian actor says and does, "Make love to your work, to your play, to your community, to your clients, and to your wife!...And all will make love to you!...or don't.Near the stream,J

10. 
    Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 09:59pm | #21

    *I guess the bottom line for me is fun. If it's not fun, I won't put my heart into it - or have success at it - building, parenting, any endeavor.

3. 
   Johnny_M | Apr 09, 1999 05:42am | #22

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   O.K.-sorry mike-I was in a foul mood last night after putting in a typical half-day (12 hours).

   Frankly, Mike, I don't know if you're an owner, a carpenter, a helper or what- but I've also known some P.M's who were completely useless in my time. These morons couldn't tie their own shoelaces let alone run multiple projects-or even one project.

   There are alot of carpenters out there who should just be carpenters and not actually run projects-and some are content with doing this.

   But when a company begins to grow, then that's when the need arises for a P.M. With us, it was when we went over a million about 5 years ago. We are currently running steady at 2.5 million a year of residential remodelling. We also own a kitchen showroom. The owner sells and manages the company and I oversee everything else.

   I have to tell you that you have to REALLY want to take a job like this on. You need to be experienced in not just carpentry, but a host of other trades. You also need to be able to dedicate alot of time and patience to the job.

   But I also gotta tell ya that it has to be awfully difficult to be hired into this position from outside the company. You will probably spend alot of time earning respect from the current troops. J.D., I'd be happy to tell you what I make for a yearly salary if you want to e-mail me.

4. 
   Guest_ | Apr 09, 1999 09:18am | #23

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   Thanks for the reply. I can't resist a little word play and "what's a project manager make?" proved irresitable.

   For me to categorize someone as a bureaucrat does not mean that I mean any ill feelings. In a small operation the bureaucracy is handled by people doing other things as well. As an operation grows you are quite right than PM's etc. become indespensible. As a small contractor I often wish that I were large enough to either have a staff of bureaucrats (or at least one) to do the paperwork, or to be able to supervise and manage projects myself without having to strain my aging body too much. I have worked hands on in almost all trades and continue to like some and wish others upon others.

5. 
   johngypsy | Apr 12, 1999 09:29pm | #24

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   If you're really adamant about working for someone else, then you should do it - or at least give it a shot. The fact that you have worked for yourself makes you more valuable to a company - at least that's my opinion. If you want to know what the local companies in your area are paying, check the want ads or see if there are any magazines dealing with your type of construction and see what their ads say. Of course, a terrific option is to use the internet. I use it often just to keep tabs on the market. Bottom line though - you got to love what you do because this job requires a lot of commitment. Working for someone else right now does not mean that you can't work for yourself again later. Perhaps it can help sharpen your work skills and keep you up to date w/what's happening in the trade. Who knows. I am a former PM who now works as a consultant. Basically, I hire out my services on a project to project basis. I prefer this better because it allows me to be my own boss and pick and choose who I work for. I have worked with a lot of people in the past that had I had a choice, I would not have performed work for. Now I have a choice and I enjoy it. My specialty was hotels when I worked for a company and when I quit I was earning over $80k per year I don't know if that helps. Keep in mind that it's not just the money you need to negotiate for, it's also the benefits like company vehicle, work hours per week, paid vacations, 401k contributions, insurance, cellular phone bill compensation, etc. If you have any questions, just e-mail me. I'd be glad to help. Good luck.

6. 
   Guest_ | Apr 12, 1999 10:57pm | #25

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   I've been wondering how the other half lives and so I put together a resume and faxed out a couple. I don't want to go cheap, so I'm wondering what is a salary range for this type of work. I'm experienced in that I've been running my own company for over seven years, but I don't know how far that gets me either.

   Any help is appriciated.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 07, 1999 07:20am | #1

   *What does a project manager make? They make me nuts, thats what they make.Salaries on the other hand are probably anywhere from 40k through 75k depending on who you are, what experience you have as an actual PM and whether you are working residential or commercial projects and what size of each. I would say that with only 7 yrs experience 40k would be a good wage to start at but I personally wouldn't go to work for someone else for under 75k.Pete Draganic

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 07, 1999 10:21pm | #2

   *J.D.:It's just an awfull job, at least on the commercial end. You are basically in charge of a bunch of low bid spoiled brat subs. They can't read plans, and you have to baby sit them. My best friend is one, and he works about 60 hours a week, at the job site at 4:00 a.m. Most of the commercial stuff is done at night, or early in the morning, so the PM has to baby sit them at that time. He gets screamed at by the owners, the developers, and his boss. No vacations, no time off. He is miserable, but makes good coins.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 02:21am | #3

   *Project managers do not make anything. They are bureaucrats who supervise those who actually make things. For this they are paid handsomely.

1. 
   Guest_ | Apr 08, 1999 03:38am | #4

   *That's a scary thought, Mike... for lack of a better job description I call myself the project manager of my company... maybe boss, or president, or owner would be better... anyone know any other good euphemisms for head honcho?

2. 
   Ben_Howe | Apr 08, 1999 05:05am | #5

   *Easy RossYou wouldn't want to scare the poor boy with 'euphemisms'; note the "whats a project manager make" in the original post.

7. 
   Guest_ | Apr 12, 1999 10:57pm | #26

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   A good project manager is worth his weight in gold. A bad project manager will soon burn out under the load.One of the nice things about being in bueiness for myself now is that I had worked up to a project manager and quit to work for myself. This lets me get a jump on all the other PM's who are over worked and under paided. "You forgot to send my invoice through? Well we don't be on site untill all accounts are current." If a project manager is fair to me I'll go to bat for him. If he snow balls me with double talk I'll bury him in the dust