To all or any who might offer advice:
I have been a carpenter for several years but have only in the past year and a half been a lead carpenter.
can anyone, please, tell me what they think “lead carpenter” means.
I have worked for two diifferent builders who have had two total different ideas.
The 1st sold the jobs… wrote up a quick scope of work, did basic though incomplete and impercise drawings then disappeared. I ordered all materials, scheduled all subs, dealt with all customers complaints and concerns… design changes… even those considerably complex… provided all tools and even used my own credit card to buy immediate need materials. He… collected the checks, paid my wages, and met with the clients 1 hr a week to go over what we had already discussed. As far as design changes and change order he said “those things are often written as to be confirmed on sight.”
the 2nd… sells the job, gives absolutely no scope of work or any plans, barely making it known what is to be done over the next few days let alone over the length of the job… I’m on a need to know basis, I still provide all the tools, which he uses when he comes on sight– takes over– works for a short while then leaves. He orders all the materials (often incompletely), schedules all the subs… regardless of where the job is at– often bottle necking the sight, sets the rules (or lack there of) and order (or lack there of) for the sight… essentially maintains complete control over the job which makes it virtually impossible and useless for me to do any job planning or material list.
So please.. tell me what is a lead… what are “my responsibilities”, and “my rights”
Bookworm
Replies
A lead carpenter is usually quite heavy, I checked my periodic table and found they would have quite a high density yet ,suprisingly, so does a gold carpenter. I don't usually note mixed ethnic backgrounds because I are one but lead carpenters can contain some tin and bismuth and function quite swimmingly.
A lead elctrician is a poor conductor of electricity, lead plumbers have a sidekick named annie oakum...
And if you ever get fired, its because you didn't take the LEAD out.
Second one - you are working for a moron who thinks he is a contractor and is treeating you like the moron he is.
You might get something out of this site at JLC
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8
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Here I was under the impression that a lead carpenter was, The guy who could translate Spanish.
KIP
I would like to apologize a little for my first response, wife stays up late Sunday nt. to watch a TV show,earplugs are not cutting it so lack of sleep turned me into an imbecile[more of].
I recently left a job for many of the reasons you are struggling with. The jlc link is a good link but how do we bring our employers up to speed on an acceptable solution? I think we need to ask for a job description when we start work, What do you expect from us and what tools I'm I required to provide? Otherwise I think we are doomed to tool up a site, be project manager, field estimator, foreman, business rep., and mind reader. I used to tell a potential employer that I build things and I make people money. After unloading a couple of hundred pounds of my own tools the day before Thanksgiving from the company truck[they are not safe at the shop] I came in this morning asking this same question. Nailguns, bat.tools, ladders. Nobody likes ultimatums so I framed it the way you give a child a choice, would you like me to price _______ at A or B or I could rent them from X or Y? Will it work? At least I feel proactive about this and know with the next guy I'll have this fine tuned a little better where I understand what is expected and what I need to provide and be able to verbalize the compensation aspects. Don't use your own funds, please, it will bite you hard someday. thanks for reading...
A lead carpenter, to me, is a single unit residential Superintendant. The GC is the Project Manager. A PM has several job sites to Captain.The leads are his XO's. THe PM is the interface with every thing outside the single job(s) and the Lead is the interface for everybody concerned with the jobsite.
I want my leads to keep the office informed of everything that goes on. A call in the morning to report timecards and anychanges that occured overnite. Report in any signed CO's that change time and/or money when they're signed. A call at lunch if needed, and definately a call or visit after work for the dailey report.
My leads don't need their own money for my jobs, but they do need to learn how not to run out of material. A lead must put Management before Carpentry. I expect Leads to put in an hour of OT daily on management, and if they analyze that the job warrents it, they can work management and/or carpentry on saturdays.
The lead needs to understand the budget for the job because they have to make decisions based on MONEY. P&L.
You have no "Lead rights", your responsiblities and authority, are whatever your boss says they are, and, he can give you almost any title he wants.
SamT
Bookworm, all carpentry positions are negotiated at some point in time. Obvioulsly, you didn't negotiate very well.
A "lead" is a vague term that can mean anything to anyone. There's no hard rules.
I've worked at a few jobs as an employee. I've never supplied my tools to other employees, but I've always used my own tools, even when the employer supplied tools. I don't like using other people junk. I prefer my own junk.
It's probably too late to change your relationship with your current employer. In your next interview, make it clear that you left this current employer because he was taking advantage of your genorosity and naivety. Most sensible employers will understand and kinda chuckle at you for being man enough to admit your foolishness, while admiring your ability to learn your lesson.
Many employers will push, push, push, and take advantage wherever they can. As long as the employee is willing......why upset the apple cart?
If I were you, I'd put in writing a detailed request for payment on all the tools being used. The final tally might end up being 25 or 50 dollars an hour. Maybe it would be only ten...I don't know. I'd then ask for, and expect to be compensated. I'd also demand full control of all aspects of the job, or request a full time foreman. I wouldn't settle for a guy coming on my job and doing whatever he wanted...even if he was the owner. I've been sent packing and I've seen the owners walking away sputtering mad...knowing I was right.
The last employer of mine got a full page "request" list...including 12 weeks of vacation time (unpaid was fine with me). He couldn't meet my demands without upsetting the other 60 employees....we parted friends.
I've looked a few "owners" in the eye and let them know that once they turn the job over to me...it ain't theirs anymore...unless they fire me.
I don't mind walking....I walked in looking for work...and walked out looking too.
Don't be such a pushover. Pushovers don't get far in this business.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Lead carpenter wears tools all day, does layout and supervises other carpenters. May be more than one on larger jobs where there are several crews with defined tasks; ie, high rise projects have column crew, slab crew, and core crew.
Superintendent would rarely use tools but is on site full time. Ensures that materials, labour and subs come and go in timely manner. Deals with architect, engineer, inspectors, owners when answers are needed to site-related questions. If the super is an employee, they should not need to provide tools or purchase materials from their own pocket.
Wally
Sly,
That's a commercial Lead.
BTDT
SamT
Sly is correct as to the definition of a lead.
Commercial, residential, industrial, it don't matter. A lead is a lead.
Hube,
Wally said
"Lead carpenter wears tools all day, does layout and supervises other carpenters. May be more than one on larger jobs where there are several crews with defined tasks; ie, high rise projects have column crew, slab crew, and core crew.
Superintendent would rarely use tools but is on site full time. Ensures that materials, labour and subs come and go in timely manner. Deals with architect, engineer, inspectors, owners when answers are needed to site-related questions. If the super is an employee, they should not need to provide tools or purchase materials from their own pocket."
But on a residential job it should read
Lead carpenter wears tools all day, does layout and supervises other carpenters. May be more than one on larger jobs where there are several crews with defined tasks; ie, high rise projects have column crew, slab crew, and core crew. Ensures that materials, labour and subs come and go in timely manner. Deals with architect, engineer, inspectors, owners when answers are needed to site-related questions.
Superintendent would rarely use tools and may be responsible for many sites and may spend many hours in the main office. If the super is an employee, they should not need to provide tools or purchase materials from their own pocket.
Edit; That's my definition of leads on my jobs. Other bosses will have other definitions. st
SamT
Edited 11/30/2004 8:56 am ET by SamT
Then I guess that lead is one busy SOB. Glad I don't work full time residential, I'm not much of a multi-tasker.
WallyLignum est bonum.
If you like books, bookman, here's one written by the guy who moderates the forum on lead carpentry at JLC:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0963226878/qid=1101816066/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8013432-3318551?v=glance&s=books
If you want to work at the top of your game, I'd look for a contractor at the top of his game, which means he'll have good business systems in place and may be a tough negotiator.
I guess you'd have to ask the guy using it for an exact interepretation.
Short of a definition here's what I've experienced on the best crews I worked for:
Jobs usually set up by a, lets say Project Manager. All details and decisions are his responsibility. He rarely swings a hammer yet is capable of all aspects of building. You see him at the job site once a day for an hour or 2 at most. He'll arrange subs and materials. He deals with the HO. He assigns the crew. He gives detailed instructions to what I call: Lead Carpenter
Lead carpenter will direct the actual building, the assigning of tasks, the trouble shooting. The go between PM and carpenters/ laborers. LC will be in charge of keeping the project on track and schedule for the subs.The lead carpenter is usually an ace and can handle every aspect of the build. While the LC is usually tooled up to the max, he does NOT supply tools for the crew. At his discretion he may toss you one of his wonder bars but don't count on it.
I've worked for 2 highly succesful firms that used this basic plan and suspect most other multi crew firms use a similar set-up.
JLC has some deal called Lead Carpenter System which on a cursory glance seems kinda "new age" to me. I really haven't investigated much to comment seriously though.
HTH
Cor.